186 replies to this topic

[arunma]

Actually, this was all taught to me by a certain person who has their doctorate in theology which shows you have more work to do.

Well this certain person isn't here; you are. When you make an argument, you have to stand on your own two feet. My pastor also has a doctorate in theology. That fact does nothing to support my arguments, and nor does the above statement support yours.

By the way, I'm not sure if you'd call it "condemning," but Jesus did pronounce seven woes upon the Pharisees. See Matthew 23.

[Serra]

Jesus was not given to us to judge us, he went to everyone the same way no matter who you were or what people thought of you at that time. None of the disciples were Pharisees, before they went to Jesus they were the one's at the bottom of the barrel and after Jesus was gone they were Christians spreading the acts of Jesus until they were all killed. I don't need someone to tell me who the Pharisees were because I know quite well through all the classes I have been through myself. I also know the the Saducees were as much Jewish as the Pharisees but did not try to follow the Bible so they could keep their power on top. Jesus was trying to teach them that they were at both ends of the spectrum and both corrupted by the wealth the recieved, the Pharisees actually believing they were the only one's able to connect with God to cast further judgement with whatever they thought to be right.

[Alakhriveion]

None of the disciples were Pharisees, before they went to Jesus they were the one's at the bottom of the barrel and after Jesus was gone they were Christians spreading the acts of Jesus until they were all killed.

No, actually, a decent number of them were.

[arunma]

Jesus was not given to us to judge us, he went to everyone the same way no matter who you were or what people thought of you at that time.

Uh, yeah he was. 2 Timothy 4:1 says, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom." Please remember the differences between the First and Second Advent.

None of the disciples were Pharisees, before they went to Jesus they were the one's at the bottom of the barrel and after Jesus was gone they were Christians spreading the acts of Jesus until they were all killed.

Actually, Paul specifically says that he was a Pharisee in Phillipians 3:4-6. See for yourself if you don't believe me. Chances are that the other disciples were Pharisees too, because they also believed in the resurrection of the body. Remember, not all the Pharisees were rich, hypocritical scribes and priests.

I don't need someone to tell me who the Pharisees were because I know quite well through all the classes I have been through myself.

Woah now, don't take it personally. OK, so I'm new to the Christianity thing (well, much newer than you, anyway), but I have done my homework. And not everything you're saying is entirely correct.

Jesus was trying to teach them that they were at both ends of the spectrum and both corrupted by the wealth the recieved,

Actually, Jesus was trying to teach them that they were both hypocritical, because they yoked others with burdens that they themselves could not bear.

the Pharisees actually believing they were the only one's able to connect with God to cast further judgement with whatever they thought to be right.

Wait, where did this come from? The Pharisees invited Gentiles to pray in the Temple. In fact, it was the early Christians (all Jews) who made the mistake of thinking that Gentiles had to become Jewish to be Christians. That's why Paul hammered into his spiritual students the point that people are saved by Jesus Christ apart from works of the Torah. The Pharisees themselves were, as Alak puts it, great reformers. Jesus never attacked all Pharisees. The only ones he attacked were the elite upper class. Where are you getting all this?

[Serra]

You missed the point there with your last comment, I meant they thought they were the only one's that could speak with God personally and then explain it to the people in that way. Even Jews who were not high priests where said to be just crazy if they believed they were hearing the voice of God. All Pharisees WERE rich and powerful because they were the high priests and scribes of the temples who made a hell of a lot of money from being able to speak with God on behalf of the people. To call Jesus just a Pharisee sorta demotes his name since he was much more than just another high priest he was the messiah. The Saducees were not hypocritical in the least, they were not high up on God like the Pharisees but rather traitors to the Jewish communitee in siding with the enemy who was Rome at the time. And when I said he wouldn't judge us I meant he would not do the same as people were doing to each other. Like he didn't judge someone because they were a leper, because you were poor, because you were a tax collector. He looked at you from the inside to try and make everyone understand how to follow God and end the sins people had during that time.

[arunma]

You missed the point there with your last comment, I meant they thought they were the only one's that could speak with God personally and then explain it to the people in that way.

Uh, I'm not sure the Pharisees did think this. Only the Pharisaic leaders thought anywhere along these lines. You don't need to be a priest to be a Pharisee.

Even Jews who were not high priests where said to be just crazy if they believed they were hearing the voice of God. All Pharisees WERE rich and powerful because they were the high priests and scribes of the temples who made a hell of a lot of money from being able to speak with God on behalf of the people.

No...Phraisaism was a sect of Judaism. The priests were only the leaders of the Pharisees. Like I said above, anybody could be a Pharisee.

To call Jesus just a Pharisee sorta demotes his name since he was much more than just another high priest he was the messiah.

To call Jesus a Phraisee doesn't demote his name anymore than calling him a Jew would diminish him. Jesus was a practicing Jew, and it's quite possible that his parents were part of the Pharisee sect. Jesus obviously knew that the Pharisaic leaders were corrupt, which is why he fought them. But never did Jesus say that the religion of Judaism or the doctrines of the Pharisaic sect were incorrect. Jesus' point was that the leaders of the Pharisees did not practice their own doctrines (that is, they were hypocrites). Do you see the difference?

The Saducees were not hypocritical in the least, they were not high up on God like the Pharisees but rather traitors to the Jewish communitee in siding with the enemy who was Rome at the time.

You do know that the Saducees were also responsible for persecuting Jesus, right? And when I say "the Saducees," I'm referring to the leaders.

And when I said he wouldn't judge us I meant he would not do the same as people were doing to each other. Like he didn't judge someone because they were a leper, because you were poor, because you were a tax collector. He looked at you from the inside to try and make everyone understand how to follow God and end the sins people had during that time.

That's correct. But he does judge you on how you conduct yourself. Again, do you see the difference?

[Serra]

You are right, you do not need to be a priest to be a Pharisee since none of them were priests, they were the people that studied the Torah and told everyone what it meant. They were very important people in the temple and as such they were paid well to explain the Torah. The Saducees were the high priests of the temple and the Pharisees worked underneath them not in a completely different temple. And Jesus did say they Pharisees were wrong with the laws they had made such as the food laws and the way they would not touch sinners because they believed it would hurt their "righteousnees". That is why it would demote Jesus's name to call him just a Pharisee since he did, above all else, be with all sinners to try and help them out to understand God's word. And I don't see what point you are trying to make with explaining the Saducees. They were not the only one's to persecute Jesus, the Pharisee were consantly out to trip him up, the Zealots hated him because he taught of peace, and the Essenes were just pissed because they wanted a Messiah to bring about the end of the world. Jesus purpose was to bring sinners, outcasts, and alienated people back into the fellowship which went greatly against a lot of the Pharisees ideals.