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Monsters, Sky People, and the Light Force


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#1 D~N

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 07:38 PM

Spoilers ahead.



During the ending of Skyward Sword it is revealed that Demise is responsible for all of the monsters and evil things that torment the land. He is then sealed and/or killed with the Master Sword, which is then thrust into some pedestal. This much is clear.

In The Minish Cap we learn that all the monsters of the world are sealed inside the Bound Chest, which was sealed by the Hero of Men by thrusting a sword into it. When this seal breaks, monsters return to the land.

What we have here is a strong connection between the two games. The only flaw in this plan is the blades involved. In SS, the Master Sword is used to seal Demise. In TMC, it is the Picori Blade. However, the Blade looks identical to the Master Sword, so that makes things a little easier.

I like this as a strong connective to confirm that TMC comes immediately after SS. The releasing of the monsters is a pretty direct reference, and on top of that, if Ganon is to be the second coming of Demise or his spirit re-embodied or whatever, he has to be let out somehow before OoT. Thus, the first three games could look something like: SS - TMC - OoT.

But I have more evidence other than just monsters. TMC blatently refers to Sky People, and does so ever-so-casually. By the time of TP, the sky people are a myth, but in TMC, Link heads up to the sky and chats with these people like it's no big deal. This leads me to believe that the people from Skyloft that settled in Hyrule still regularly visited the sky to the point where it did not become a legend yet; that is, the sky people's existence wasn't shrouded by the same mystery as TP yet. This fact, combined with the release of monsters, suggests that TMC can directly follow SS.

Finally, Zelda is known to protect or contain the Light Force, which is EASILY relatable to the power of Hylia. This connection is clear. Now it's not part of my theory but I think it's a nice touch that Vaati looks and acts similarly to Ghirahim. So what we can see here is that Vaati aka Ghirahim2.0 is out to break the seal of his master at the begining of the game to release the monsters and obtain the Light Force. I think when you piece this together, it is very clear that Minish Cap should follow Skyward Sword directly.


So that's my theory, I'd like you guys to go ahead and poke holes in this now, if you would please. ;)

Edited by D~N, 10 December 2011 - 07:53 PM.


#2 Snow

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 08:00 PM

But the "sky people" in TMC's backstory were the Minish, and they descended from the sky to give both the Light Force and the Picori Blade to the Hero of Men, who lived on the surface. Since Link is neither a Minish nor a surface dweller, the story just doesn't add up at all. And, like you said, SS has the wrong sword and lacks a chest into which the sword is supposed to be thrust.

#3 SOAP

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 08:25 PM

But the "sky people" in TMC's backstory were the Minish, and they descended from the sky to give both the Light Force and the Picori Blade to the Hero of Men, who lived on the surface. Since Link is neither a Minish nor a surface dweller, the story just doesn't add up at all. And, like you said, SS has the wrong sword and lacks a chest into which the sword is supposed to be thrust.


I thought the sky people from TMC were the Wind Tribe, which looked like normal humans except for their leader who looked like a Rito.

I can see them being the Skyloftians who chose to stay in the sky.

Edit: Actually the only problem I have with this is the Wind Tribe seems to have dwelled on the surface in recent memories because when you go to the Wind Ruins where they're supposedly suppose to be at, there's nothing there but a note that basically says "Oh hey! We decided to move to the sky cos' we were bored and stuff. Sorry 'bout that. Kay-Bai!"

Edited by SOAP, 10 December 2011 - 08:30 PM.


#4 ganonlord6000

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 08:51 PM


But the "sky people" in TMC's backstory were the Minish, and they descended from the sky to give both the Light Force and the Picori Blade to the Hero of Men, who lived on the surface. Since Link is neither a Minish nor a surface dweller, the story just doesn't add up at all. And, like you said, SS has the wrong sword and lacks a chest into which the sword is supposed to be thrust.


I think the sky people he was referring to was the wind tribe, not the minish.

During the ending of Skyward Sword it is revealed that Demise is responsible for all of the monsters and evil things that torment the land. He is then sealed and/or killed with the Master Sword, which is then thrust into some pedestal. This much is clear.<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">In The Minish Cap we learn that all the monsters of the world are sealed inside the Bound Chest, which was sealed by the Hero of Men by thrusting a sword into it. When this seal breaks, monsters return to the land. <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">What we have here is a strong connection between the two games. The only flaw in this plan is the blades involved. In SS, the Master Sword is used to seal Demise. In TMC, it is the Picori Blade. However, the Blade looks identical to the Master Sword, so that makes things a little easier. <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">I like this as a strong connective to confirm that TMC comes immediately after SS. The releasing of the monsters is a pretty direct reference, and on top of that, if Ganon is to be the second coming of Demise or his spirit re-embodied or whatever, he has to be let out somehow before OoT. Thus, the first three games could look something like: SS - TMC - OoT. <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">But I have more evidence other than just monsters. TMC blatently refers to Sky People, and does so ever-so-casually. By the time of TP, the sky people are a myth, but in TMC, Link heads up to the sky and chats with these people like it's no big deal. This leads me to believe that the people from Skyloft that settled in Hyrule still regularly visited the sky to the point where it did not become a legend yet; that is, the sky people's existence wasn't shrouded by the same mystery as TP yet. This fact, combined with the release of monsters, suggests that TMC can directly follow SS. <br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); "><br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">Finally, Zelda is known to protect or contain the Light Force, which is EASILY relatable to the power of Hylia. This connection is clear. Now it's not part of my theory but I think it's a nice touch that Vaati looks and acts similarly to Ghirahim. So what we can see here is that Vaati aka Ghirahim2.0 is out to break the seal of his master at the begining of the game to release the monsters and obtain the Light Force. I think when you piece this together, it is very clear that Minish Cap should follow Skyward Sword directly.

<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">
While this is an interesting idea and I do think that TMC could occur between SS and OOT, there are other parts I don't think will work. TMC's backstory is probably something entirely different, and I don't think Demise is responsible for all evil monsters in the Zelda universe, just Ganon since he's the only one who keeps popping up (on a side note, I think SS's ending could explain Ganon's presence in LOZ), Aonuma's emphasis on SS explaining Ganon's origins, and the fact that Vaati and Ganon were both in FSA. And I think the differences between SS and the story told in TMC are different because they are two entirely different stories, though they take place at around the same time. Maybe the minish intervened and made the Picori Blade/ Four Sword since the Master Sword couldn't be used at the moment? As for the light force idea, that could work. And I think it could tie in with the interloper story from TP.

So that's my theory, I'd like you guys to go ahead and poke holes in this now, if you would please. ;)


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Edited by ganonlord6000, 10 December 2011 - 08:53 PM.


#5 D~N

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 09:13 PM

But the "sky people" in TMC's backstory were the Minish,


I cannot claim to know how three or four different types of sky people exist - the minish, the chosen people of Skyward Sword, the wind tribe, and the Oocca. But indeed they all exist, and perhaps they are all inter-related somehow, but I cannot say that I know how. So yes, the sky people of TMC backstory were the minish, but the fact remains that they came from the sky, which is a relatively big deal. My point is that while they may not match up perfectly, there's a lot of "sky business" going on during both SS and TMC. I cannot claim any more than that.

Also, dont forget that there is the Wind Tribe, who have established living space on the land and in the sky. The ending sequence of Skyward Sword suggests that there will probably be a lot of back-and-forth between the land and sky for a while. Hence, this wind tribe. Again, my point isn't that TMC backstory = SS, but rather that there's strong connections via the sky between the two games.

...and they descended from the sky to give both the Light Force and the Picori Blade to the Hero of Men, who lived on the surface. Since Link is neither a Minish nor a surface dweller, the story just doesn't add up at all. And, like you said, SS has the wrong sword and lacks a chest into which the sword is supposed to be thrust.


The tiny Picori appeared from the sky, bringing the hero of men a sword and a golden light.


I see why you demand that Link be either a surface dweller or a picori in order for this theory to make sense, but hear me out. This one is a stretch, but it works in the english translation. The quote above would normally suggest that they picori brough a sword and a golden light to the hero of men, but it can also be read differently; they brough the hero of men, the sword, and the golden light from the sky. You just have to read it differently, because the grammar can make it somewhat ambiguous. Again, it's a bit of a stretch, but it can work...kinda.

The swords being different is an issue I'm trying to deal with, but the lack of a chest is trivial. The point is that Demise is the cause of monsters and he is sealed in SS, and in TMC when the seal on the chest is broken, monster are released to the world. My point isn't that the chest and the pedestal are the same thing, but rather that the monster sealing business is similar.


To condense my point, i'm not saying that TMC backstory is SS, but rather that the sky business is similar, the sealing of monsters is similar, and zelda having the light force could very well be Hylia's power. If I can somehow get TMC's backstory to match up nicely to SS, i'd be overjoyed but I haven't done that yet and dont claim to have.





EDIT:

Edit: Actually the only problem I have with this is the Wind Tribe seems to have dwelled on the surface in recent memories because when you go to the Wind Ruins where they're supposedly suppose to be at, there's nothing there but a note that basically says "Oh hey! We decided to move to the sky cos' we were bored and stuff. Sorry 'bout that. Kay-Bai!"

Yes, indeed they lived on the land and the sky, but whose to say in what order? They could have lived first in the sky, then tried out the land for a little bit, then went back up to the sky. Imagine the people of Skyloft hearing about Groose's advntures down below. They come down to explore but realize the like home a lot better. Thus, Sky, then land, then sky, in that order. Problem solved.

Edited by D~N, 10 December 2011 - 09:17 PM.


#6 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 12:12 AM

What we have here is a strong connection between the two games. The only flaw in this plan is the blades involved. In SS, the Master Sword is used to seal Demise. In TMC, it is the Picori Blade. However, the Blade looks identical to the Master Sword, so that makes things a little easier.


<Insert problems with the Master Sword and Four Sword being synonymous blades when they're both separately on screen as distinct entities in LTTP's remake, which seemed to be treated as canonical. Also point out the ludicriousness of the Goddess Sword becoming the Master Sword after an arduous process, then being instantly transformed into the Picori Blade by little rodents, then turned into the Four Sword after a couple games' worth, then snaps back into the Master Sword offscreen just because for no real reason.>

I like this as a strong connective to confirm that TMC comes immediately after SS. The releasing of the monsters is a pretty direct reference, and on top of that, if Ganon is to be the second coming of Demise or his spirit re-embodied or whatever, he has to be let out somehow before OoT.


Not at all. Ganondorf is specifically an incarnation of Demise's hatred; he is not Demise himself, but a manifestation of an eternal curse imposed onto the natural order of Hyrule's system of transmigration. Demise's soul rots forever inside the Master Sword for as long as Ganondorf exists across the timeline.

But I have more evidence other than just monsters. TMC blatently refers to Sky People, and does so ever-so-casually. By the time of TP, the sky people are a myth, but in TMC, Link heads up to the sky and chats with these people like it's no big deal. This leads me to believe that the people from Skyloft that settled in Hyrule still regularly visited the sky to the point where it did not become a legend yet; that is, the sky people's existence wasn't shrouded by the same mystery as TP yet. This fact, combined with the release of monsters, suggests that TMC can directly follow SS.


While I like the idea, the Wind Tribe seem to have powers and spiritual awareness the Skyloftians do not, and their dialog implies they've been to the surface. Also, a total lack of Loftwings.

Finally, Zelda is known to protect or contain the Light Force, which is EASILY relatable to the power of Hylia. This connection is clear. Now it's not part of my theory but I think it's a nice touch that Vaati looks and acts similarly to Ghirahim. So what we can see here is that Vaati aka Ghirahim2.0 is out to break the seal of his master at the begining of the game to release the monsters and obtain the Light Force. I think when you piece this together, it is very clear that Minish Cap should follow Skyward Sword directly.


The Light Force is a magical artifact CREATED BY THE MINISH and given to the Hylians as a gift. Unless you're going to say the Picori made a goddess's soul...

Also, Vaati is a particularly spoiled brat of a Minish, not a Ghirahim2.0. Nintendo even said that resemblance between the two characters is an unintended coincidence and has no meaning whatsoever.

#7 D~N

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 01:58 AM

The Light Force is a magical artifact CREATED BY THE MINISH and given to the Hylians as a gift. Unless you're going to say the Picori made a goddess's soul...

As it's been a while since I've played TMC, you'll have to forgive me if I'm fuzzy on some details. But I dont remember any specific mention of the Minish creating the Light Force. I Do remember that it was brought to the hero of men by the Minish, but I do not remember hearing -specifically- of its origins. Could you perhaps point to them? The best I could find on the Light Force was this, from Zeldapedia:
According to legend, when evil threatened Hyrule's existence during a great war, the world was on the verge of being swallowed by shadow. Then, when all hope seemed lost against the Army of Evil, the tiny Minish race appeared from the sky, bringing the Hero of Men, a sword known as the Picori Blade, and a golden light known as the Light Force. The Hero of Men combined the power of the Picori Blade with the power of the Light Force to bind the entire Army of Evil within the Bound Chest spoken of in Hylian lore. After the war was won, the Hero of Men sealed the Bound Chest with the Picori Blade itself, keeping all evil locked away within the depths of the chest.


Honestly, this seems to share quite a few themes with Skywards Sword's events. Of course, this happens to mention the Minish and a different sword. But suppose you took those two variations out of the equation, can we agree on some similarities? Specifically the containing of evil business and the appearing from the sky business.

Also, Vaati is a particularly spoiled brat of a Minish, not a Ghirahim2.0. Nintendo even said that resemblance between the two characters is an unintended coincidence and has no meaning whatsoever.

Like I said, it's not a part of my theory, it's just interesting how similar they are. I hate how he's a Minish though, that makes it difficult to even have fun with it.

While I like the idea, the Wind Tribe seem to have powers and spiritual awareness the Skyloftians do not, and their dialog implies they've been to the surface. Also, a total lack of Loftwings.

These are problems indeed, but largely trivial. Obviously they couldn't include birds in TMC because they weren't even thought of yet, and I've addresed the idea of them having gone to the surface. Magic is something I have no answers to.


Not at all. Ganondorf is specifically an incarnation of Demise's hatred; he is not Demise himself, but a manifestation of an eternal curse imposed onto the natural order of Hyrule's system of transmigration. Demise's soul rots forever inside the Master Sword for as long as Ganondorf exists across the timeline.

That is one interpretation, one I've seen you share various times so far, and it seems well developed at that. But it rests on Demise being dead and sealed. My problem with this idea is that, simply stated, there's no need to be both dead AND sealed. In Zelda history, it's been a "lets either kill it or seal it" mentality, but I just wouldn't be able to understand the need for both, nor the possibility. Still, I can understand the idea of the curse, and I like it. But I also like the idea that it could be Demise's spirit/essence/whatever sealed inside the blade, and subsequently being released from the seal; and that's the point of this thread. I am not denying the possibility of your curse theory, I am merely suggesting an alternative. It is going to be interesting, but also difficult, for you to conclusively prove that Demise is gone and out of the picture, for good, like you want. If you can, cool, but I dont think the final cutscene of SS proves anything conclusive about Demise's state.

<Insert problems with the Master Sword and Four Sword being synonymous blades when they're both separately on screen as distinct entities in LTTP's remake, which seemed to be treated as canonical. Also point out the ludicriousness of the Goddess Sword becoming the Master Sword after an arduous process, then being instantly transformed into the Picori Blade by little rodents, then turned into the Four Sword after a couple games' worth, then snaps back into the Master Sword offscreen just because for no real reason.>

Yes, yes, I know. >.< Still working on it.

#8 Person

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 02:18 AM

I prefer to think of TMC and SS being different tellings of similar legends. Whereas the standard mainline arc has SS lead into OoT and focuses on Ganon, with other bad guys either acting as his henchmen or replacements, the "Four Swords" arc has this episode lead into a Vaati-centric story where the Triforce and Master Sword don't play any significant role and Ganon only shows up in the arc's conclusion.

Think of this kind of like the old Arthurian romance cycles. All of these stories had a general connection and timeline, but they didn't quite gel. Like, originally Percival was the main Grail Knight but then Galahad got tacked on and there are like 4 or 5 different versions of the Grail Quest because of that. Or how there are somehow two different Excaliburs.

Edited by Person, 11 December 2011 - 02:19 AM.


#9 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 02:38 AM

As it's been a while since I've played TMC, you'll have to forgive me if I'm fuzzy on some details. But I dont remember any specific mention of the Minish creating the Light Force. I Do remember that it was brought to the hero of men by the Minish, but I do not remember hearing -specifically- of its origins. Could you perhaps point to them?


Ezlo comments that his Minish Cap is one of the greatest creations of the Minish, paling only to the Light Force. This is, I believe, in the same scene where he divulges Vaati's origins.

Honestly, this seems to share quite a few themes with Skywards Sword's events. Of course, this happens to mention the Minish and a different sword. But suppose you took those two variations out of the equation, can we agree on some similarities? Specifically the containing of evil business and the appearing from the sky business.


Well, yea, sure, but if you're going to just discard the differences of the two events, we might as well go with the simpler, and more canonically supported, idea that events in Hyrule replay themselves throughout history in a manner similar to fate and dharma.

That is one interpretation, one I've seen you share various times so far, and it seems well developed at that. But it rests on Demise being dead and sealed. My problem with this idea is that, simply stated, there's no need to be both dead AND sealed. In Zelda history, it's been a "lets either kill it or seal it" mentality, but I just wouldn't be able to understand the need for both, nor the possibility.


I don't know about you, but I would want to keep the soul of the Root of All Evil sealed up so he didn't resurrect or reincarnate or possess someone's body or some other silly ass thing. He's basically the God of Evil, we can make exceptions to the regular formula for him.

And his soul is slowly rotting to nothing anyway, so it's not like the seal has to hold forever.

Still, I can understand the idea of the curse, and I like it. But I also like the idea that it could be Demise's spirit/essence/whatever sealed inside the blade, and subsequently being released from the seal; and that's the point of this thread. I am not denying the possibility of your curse theory, I am merely suggesting an alternative.


But...it's not a theory. It's literally what the text says. He's sealed in the sword, and he knows he's being sealed in the sword, so he makes a comment that his hatred will dog them forever. It's completely different from "My hatred will harass you forever AS SOON AS I GET OUT OF HERE" or anything.

It is going to be interesting, but also difficult, for you to conclusively prove that Demise is gone and out of the picture, for good, like you want. If you can, cool, but I dont think the final cutscene of SS proves anything conclusive about Demise's state.


Demise is the earliest point in the timeline > His existence leads to Ganondorf > Everyone knows about Ganon, Demise is completely absent from the annals of history > Fi's slumber seems to be for the sake of keeping Demise sealed, otherwise Hylia's kind of a bitch for no reason > Fi never shows up ever again > Demise is fucking gone and removed from the picture.

Come on, guys. Seriously. Are we really going to do the "Wind Waker's Ending: MAYBE IT'S NOT FOREVER" argument all over again?

#10 FDL

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 11:24 AM

I don't really agree with these things being connected for the most part, in particular I don't think Demise being the source of the demons means they'll be sealed in a box when Demise is sealed in a pedestal, but I did consider the possibility that Groose returning to the sky at the end has something to do with the red-headed family of sky people in TMC. That would make more sense than the "Groose is the ancestor of the Gerudo" thing at least.

#11 joeymartin64

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 12:43 PM

Come on, guys. Seriously. Are we really going to do the "Wind Waker's Ending: MAYBE IT'S NOT FOREVER" argument all over again?


yhallothar

...Nah, kidding. I agree with you on this one. It's not like Demise was sealed in at full power. The game mentions his "residual consciousness" and "last remnants," so I'm pretty sure he's bread.

#12 D~N

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 01:00 PM

Hmm. But then why is it stated that an incarnation of his hatred, and again his hatred, and once more he says that even he will rise again? Indeed a curse may have been placed, but then what about these statements? Are they empty pomises? Is Ganon then just the result of this curse, rather than a re-embodiment of Demise's hatred? "An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind..." and "My hate..never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end." and finally "I shall rise again!" These seem to specifically reference himself, rather than a curse.

#13 joeymartin64

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 01:20 PM

I don't think anybody is saying that Demise doesn't exert any influence via his curse/incarnations of his hatred after SS. Just that the actual Captain Rockmuscles McFlamehair guy we saw isn't coming back.

Edited by joeymartin64, 11 December 2011 - 01:20 PM.


#14 D~N

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 01:26 PM

Oh yeah, I'm not saying he's coming back either, certainly not materially. But maybe his form or spirit or essence or something can have some sort of influence (ie., his hatred) on future baddies like Ganon.

Edited by D~N, 11 December 2011 - 01:26 PM.


#15 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:17 PM

Ganon(dorf) is the embodiment of Demise's hatred, not Demise himself. The two are distinct; one an emanation, an eidolon of the other. Demise never said that he himself would return.

#16 D~N

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 03:34 PM

Well besides from this quote "I shall rise again!"


But even I dont believe Demise himself will return. I just feel that his essence or spirit will return. The more we talk about this, the more I think we agree, and are just arguing semantics.



#17 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 04:42 PM

Well besides from this quote "I shall rise again!"


Which he says immediately after saying his hate will be born anew, time and time again. :P He's being poetic.




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