26 replies to this topic

[FDL]

I'm sure other people have thought of this but I just realized something. The Hyrule Castle in TWW is probably the Temple of Time. I believe this because of the Master Sword. I doubt anyone could move it from the Temple of Time besides Link and he left Hyrule after sealing Ganondorf. Therefore, the Hyrule Castle in TWW must be a renovated ToT. Thoughts?

[MikePetersSucks]

I doubt it. If not for practicality, then atleast out of religious sanctity. It's temple. Remodeling it to make it into a castle is probably sacreligious. Anyway, yea, in a split timeline, they simply could of picked it up and moved it (and there is some evidence to support this) but then there's also the single timeline theory. We have two options (ugh) we could either consider the canoncity of SC2 and think that when he got back Link did it, OR, even more logical, the Fado and Laruto did it.

[Neon Z]

I doubt it. If not for practicality, then atleast out of religious sanctity. It's temple. Remodeling it to make it into a castle is probably sacreligious. Anyway, yea, in a split timeline, they simply could of picked it up and moved it (and there is some evidence to support this) but then there's also the single timeline theory. We have two options (ugh) we could either consider the canoncity of SC2 and think that when he got back Link did it, OR, even more logical, the Fado and Laruto did it.

Impossible. SC2 Link can't be OOT Link. He's stated to have used the Butterfly Net in a previous adventure, but OOT Link never used that.

[Neon Z]

Weapon Master counts for squat (he brings the mirror shield, magic sword, megaton hammer, armos weaponry and all that crap with him? I think not). And he could have come across a bug-catching net in the five/six years (estimate) between MM and SCII anyway (there's a whole other Legend in his defeat of the mage corrupted by the Soul Edge, after all).

I'm not talking about the Weapon Master Mode, nor the extra weapons, I'm talking about the Weapon Gallery.

Those descriptions are canon(at least, Soul Calibur canon), if one of those descriptions state that the charachter has that weapon, there's no reason to doubt them. Notice how the extremely powerful weapons(like Necrid's Infernal Edge, which can destroy the planet, if it gets to full power) never mention the charachter who can use them as extra weapons.

The only weapons which SC2 Link is stated to have are: Master Sword&Hylian Shield, Armors Sword & Shield, and the Butterfly Net. The Master Sword and the Butterfly Net mention to have been used before...

By the way, there's another problem with SC2 Link = OOT Link... The Great Fairy Sword... It's NOT with Link, but, somehow, it IS in Earth[It specifically mentions that its magic was weakened by being brought to Earth].

Which brings me to another detail... In the Weapon Master Mode, the models of existing charachters are used to represent other charachters, but it tells a story that happened much time before the main story, you know that, right?

Well, go to the last tournament... There, your rival will talk about the champion of the tournament, who seems to be unbeatable, and...

1- He comes from another world.
2- He is silent, and doesn't talk much.
3- He has Link's model...

See what I'm getting at? That guy, who is just called "Unknown" might be OOT Link, which also would explain how the Great Fairy Sword ended up in Earth, even though it wasn't with the main Link of the game. Also, note that he is the only named charachter in the Weapon Master Mode who uses Link's model.

He doesn't use the Great Fairy Sword in the tournament... BUT... In one of the last Dungeons in the Extra chapters in Ex mode, he'll be in the final room with the Great Fairy Sword, instead of the usual boss.

This is all very unlikely, though. Clearly there's another game to come between OoT and TWW: I'm sure that'll shed the necesarry light. No way is the Temple of Time TWW's castle.

Clearly? I don't think there needs to be any other game between WW and OOT, their connection seems fine the way that it is now.

[MikePetersSucks]

Woah, guys! let's not go onto a topic about SC2. ew. the reason I even put that there was to emphasize it's stupidity. It's way easier to believe that Fado and Laruto did it when they became sages. (since the King was the Sages' conducter, he could of had it moved so that it could be constantly watched.)

[FDL]

Everyone has made good points. I guess I didn't think everything through. One thing I must say though is that I believe there is only ONE timeline involving OoT. There may be different timelines that have nothing to do with each other story wise but I don't think OoT seperates them.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I don't understand how you all could have missed out one explanation...

In the future of OoT, Hyrule Castle is destroyed completely and not only that but Ganon's capture of Zelda shakes the Temple of Time quite a bit. I'm quite surprised that it stood up to such shaking, as clearly the people who built it didn't have anti-shock technology that we do nowadays.

Don't you think it might be plausible that the Temple of Time might have collapsed, and if so, a new Hyrule Castle would have been built on top of it?

Castles can have Chapels inside them and why bother building a new one when you can use the ruins of an old one?

[SOAP]

While I don't see any problems building a better, grander castle over the Temple of Time, I don't see the point. I mean why build a castle around a sword when it would be easier just to move the sword to the castle. Link is not the only person capable of pulling out the sword. Anyone with heroic traits can do it. For example, Zelda was able to pull out of the ground and carry it around, though just barely. Getting access to it is a different story and it usually requires getting three precious relics and whatnot.

[FDL]

I don't understand how you all could have missed out one explanation...

In the future of OoT, Hyrule Castle is destroyed completely and not only that but Ganon's capture of Zelda shakes the Temple of Time quite a bit. I'm quite surprised that it stood up to such shaking, as clearly the people who built it didn't have anti-shock technology that we do nowadays.

Don't you think it might be plausible that the Temple of Time might have collapsed, and if so, a new Hyrule Castle would have been built on top of it?

Castles can have Chapels inside them and why bother building a new one when you can use the ruins of an old one?

That's true. The Temple of Time could have collapsed.

[MikePetersSucks]

True, True, Mario, Zelda was obviously only to lift the sword because it wasn't magically imbedded in some sealed pedestal Plus she's a Sage. And she bore the Crest of the Triforce. Otherwise, I don't think a King or a servant could do it. I like the theory of the castle and the temple being destroyed with time, and the new castle being built over it. The castle of TWW is both constructed different, and it has a different geographic location

[thabto81]

I'm sure other people have thought of this but I just realized something. The Hyrule Castle in TWW is probably the Temple of Time. I believe this because of the Master Sword. I doubt anyone could move it from the Temple of Time besides Link and he left Hyrule after sealing Ganondorf. Therefore, the Hyrule Castle in TWW must be a renovated ToT. Thoughts?

I don't understand how you all could have missed out one explanation...
 
In the future of OoT, Hyrule Castle is destroyed completely and not only that but Ganon's capture of Zelda shakes the Temple of Time quite a bit. I'm quite surprised that it stood up to such shaking, as clearly the people who built it didn't have anti-shock technology that we do nowadays.
 
Don't you think it might be plausible that the Temple of Time might have collapsed, and if so, a new Hyrule Castle would have been built on top of it?
 
Castles can have Chapels inside them and why bother building a new one when you can use the ruins of an old one?

I think my problem with this theory would have to be the placement of the Castle in OoT when compared to WW. In WW it's just too far south for it to have been the original resting place of the master sword. I do, however, have my own theory about Hyrule castle. Did anyone in OoT notice the unfinished wall just outside Lon Lon Ranch? Well, when you compare it with maps of LttP and WW that unfinished wall almost perfectly coincides with hyrule castle from those time eras. Just a thought but maybe they were planning to move the castle before the attack because of its vulnerability?

[Wolf O'Donnell]

While I don't see any problems building a better, grander castle over the Temple of Time, I don't see the point. I mean why build a castle around a sword when it would be easier just to move the sword to the castle. Link is not the only person capable of pulling out the sword. Anyone with heroic traits can do it. For example, Zelda was able to pull out of the ground and carry it around, though just barely. Getting access to it is a different story and it usually requires getting three precious relics and whatnot.

Zelda in Windwaker pulled it out of the ground. Zelda in OoT never pulled it out of the ground, but I don't think that's the point.

Maybe once in the pedestal who can pull it out and who can't is limited. You don't want it falling in the wrong hands, no matter how heroic a person is. That would screw up Prophecies wouldn't it?

When I thought about the Castle being built on top of the Master Sword's pedestal, I instantly remembered about the Vatican, where a Church was erected over St. Peter's shrine in the Vatican and grew to become what it is now today.
http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/papacy/05.shtml

I think my problem with this theory would have to be the placement of the Castle in OoT when compared to WW. In WW it's just too far south for it to have been the original resting place of the master sword.

How do you know it's far too south? Hyrule itself doesn't exactly match with the map of the Great Ocean above, especially when you consider the positions of Ganon's Tower and Hyrule Castle compared with Forsaken Fortress and Tower of the Gods.

I do, however, have my own theory about Hyrule castle. Did anyone in OoT notice the unfinished wall just outside Lon Lon Ranch? Well, when you compare it with maps of LttP and WW that unfinished wall almost perfectly coincides with hyrule castle from those time eras. Just a thought but maybe they were planning to move the castle before the attack because of its vulnerability?

Yes, but if you attempt to tilt the OoT map so that the position of the mountains fit with the mountains in aLttP, either the desert or the lake ends up in completely the wrong position even if you inverse the map.

[thabto81]

How do you know it's far too south? Hyrule itself doesn't exactly match with the map of the Great Ocean above, especially when you consider the positions of Ganon's Tower and Hyrule Castle compared with Forsaken Fortress and Tower of the Gods.

Because I've compared the maps. Believe me I've done a lot of work on this. It's also important to note that TWW general area is smaller than that of OoT. Took me a while to figure that out but I got it.

Yes, but if you attempt to tilt the OoT map so that the position of the mountains fit with the mountains in aLttP, either the desert or the lake ends up in completely the wrong position even if you inverse the map.

Ah, this one plagued me for a while too. The best answer I was capable of coming up with was that of a simple continuity error. Consider this: LttP, although a good game, still had its limitations. Its playing area was one of them. If you look at the map for the game the playing area looks like it was squeezed into the size of a rectangle. This is probably because they had to use pixels as graphics. OoT, however, does not suffer from this. So if you just allow a little breathing space for the LttP map (or squeeze OoTs map into a rectangle) you'll find certain key areas more closely aligned then when you compare the two areas in their original aspect ratio. I know this may seem a bit farfetched but it works for me. Aferall, don't all theories need at least one longshot piece of evidence to back it up?

[SOAP]

I think people here seriously need to look at Davogones' old "Geography of Hyrule" articles... ANYWAYZ!

Zelda in Windwaker pulled it out of the ground. Zelda in OoT never pulled it out of the ground, but I don't think that's the point.



Maybe once in the pedestal who can pull it out and who can't is limited. You don't want it falling in the wrong hands, no matter how heroic a person is. That would screw up Prophecies wouldn't it?

I think the prophecy was that ANYONE with heroic traits could pull it from the pedestal. Not ONE specific hero. This isn't King Author. Don't confuse the two myths. Scattering the pendants and hiding the sword in the most impenetrable of areas are enough to keep it from falling in the wrong hands. My theory is that King Daphnes pulled it from it’s resting place and moved it to the castle’s basement, sealing up Ganon and his dark army as well as himself in the time bubble so that his people could escape. That, in itself, is enough to consider him heroic enough to move the Master Sword wouldn’t you think?

When I thought about the Castle being built on top of the Master Sword's pedestal, I instantly remembered about the Vatican, where a Church was erected over St. Peter's shrine in the Vatican and grew to become what it is now today.

http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/papacy/05.shtml

Ah, but the Temple of Time is hardly a good location to build a castle, especially one as big TWW's. ToT is build almost right against a mountian-base with very litrtle room for expansion. And besides, in TWW, Hyrule Castle is in the middle of a great lake, far from any mountiansides.

How do you know it's far too south? Hyrule itself doesn't exactly match with the map of the Great Ocean above, especially when you consider the positions of Ganon's Tower and Hyrule Castle compared with Forsaken Fortress and Tower of the Gods.

That's a good point! There's nothing to say that Tower of the Gods pinpoints the location of Hyrule Castle. However, there's not much of an alternative, especially when you consider that the TOTG was the only sqaure in the Great Sea WITHOUT an island and as you get nearer tothe tower the islands become smaller and flatter, suggesting there's a valley underneath the tower big enough to hold Ancient Hyrule.

Yes, but if you attempt to tilt the OoT map so that the position of the mountains fit with the mountains in aLttP, either the desert or the lake ends up in completely the wrong position even if you inverse the map.

[/size]
[size=1]Of course. But you also have to take in consideration the capabilities of the SNES.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Because I've compared the maps. Believe me I've done a lot of work on this. It's also important to note that TWW general area is smaller than that of OoT. Took me a while to figure that out but I got it.

Of course. But you also have to take in consideration the capabilities of the SNES.

Yes, but the underneath the Sea area is smaller than the Great Ocean area, which was what I was getting at. also, you couldn't possibly have compared the under the sea TWW Hyrule map because there wans't one. There's only the tWW map to compare with the OoT Map.

What I was getting at is this:

alTTP Map:


Now try rotating that map so it fits the OoT Map. If you try that, you will end up with the forest to the north of Death Mountain, whilst everything else is more or less in the correct positions. The SNES' capabilities is no excuse. The forest ends in the wrong position if you try to tilt the maps so the Desert is in the north-west and the Lake is to the south.

If you try inversing the map and then tilting it round in an attempt to overlay it on top of the OoT map, you'll still find that one of the locations doesn't overlie with the other.

Thing is, why am I having to argue this post? What has it got to do with Hyrule Castle?

[SOAP]

Obviously you're not an advocate follower of the Western/Eastern Lost Woods theory. The Eastern Palace area in ALttP is generally accepted as the ruined remains of OoT Lost Woods while Western Lost Woods is either a recently discovered forest or a forest that grew over time since OoT. But you're right. Why are we arguing about this?

Yes, but the underneath the Sea area is smaller than the Great Ocean area, which was what I was getting at. also, you couldn't possibly have compared the under the sea TWW Hyrule map because there wans't one. There's only the tWW map to compare with the OoT Map.

Yes but do have clues. We have a castle in the middle of a great lake. A river that comes in from the "Northeast" and makes a sharp turn just before spilling into the lake. A tall mountian range to the "North." It's all speculation but all clues seem to point to a map that's simmilar to ALttP.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Obviously you're not an advocate follower of the Western/Eastern Lost Woods theory. The Eastern Palace area in ALttP is generally accepted as the ruined remains of OoT Lost Woods while Western Lost Woods is either a recently discovered forest or a forest that grew over time since OoT. But you're right. Why are we arguing about this?

Nope, I'm not a follower of any theory and I don't like this Western/Eastern one, because even if you hold that a new forest has sprung up to the north of Death Mountain (north of Death Mountain in OoT and west in ALttP), how would that forest have occurred on bare mountain rock (because that's all there is right next to Hyrule Castle Town)?

Anyway, the speculation as to why the MS is in Hyrule Castle is really unimportant. The location isn't important to the plot. What is important is that the Sword is always kept hidden or sealed away from those that are unworthy and the worthy can pick it up.

I'm still an advocate of only Link can pull the Sword out of the Pedestal.

Can you imagine someone else pulling it out, only for Link to arrive and find it's not there? Wouldn't that screw things up a tad? And what if that person was heroic but isn't mentally suited for the job...?

Hm, that makes me wonder whether Link from OoT was mentally suitable. Could he have been psychologically scarred?

[SOAP]

I agree with Wolf_ODonnell on the fact that only Link can pull the Master Sword from its pedastal, and we know for a fact that no malice person could touch it because the it is the blade of evil's bane.

Getting back on topic though I would say that people of Hyrule just moved the pedestal (while the Master Sword was still in it) to the castle of Hyrule.

Now that's just silly! I'd sooner believe that a new Hyrule Castle was built over the pedestal than believe that it was moved. But I really doubt it's the same pedestal from OoT. They don't even look the same... nor do they serve the same purpose barring the fact they're both resting places for the Master Sword.

Nope, I'm not a follower of any theory and I don't like this Western/Eastern one, because even if you hold that a new forest has sprung up to the north of Death Mountain (north of Death Mountain in OoT and west in ALttP), how would that forest have occurred on bare mountain rock (because that's all there is right next to Hyrule Castle Town

Actually it be more like directly west of Death Mountian but anyways, yeah. What's wrong with that. If you climb death mountian you see the outskirts of a small forest on the opposite mountianside. This forest is nowhere on the map. Maybe they didn't know there was a forest northwest of Hyrule Castle Town just like they didn't know there was a forest near Death Mountian.

Anyway, the speculation as to why the MS is in Hyrule Castle is really unimportant. The location isn't important to the plot.

But isn't this what this whole whole debate is about?

What is important is that the Sword is always kept hidden or sealed away from those that are unworthy and the worthy can pick it up.

I'm still an advocate of only Link can pull the Sword out of the Pedestal.

But it's never mentioned in any game that only ONE person can pull out the Master Sword.

Can you imagine someone else pulling it out, only for Link to arrive and find it's not there? Wouldn't that screw things up a tad? And what if that person was heroic but isn't mentally suited for the job...?

Which is why it's hidden away and the three keys to finding it are scattered across Hyrule. A pedestal is a pedestal. It doesn't differentiate between good or evil, let alone Link and everyone else. Only the MS does that. And since we see that Zelda is capable of weilding the Master Sword why can't the King of Hyrule?

Hm, that makes me wonder whether Link from OoT was mentally suitable. Could he have been psychologically scarred?

I would suppose so. OoT Link was put into stasis for seven years because he wasn't fit to weild the MS. Yet, TWW Link pulled out the MS and weild it as a child no less, sans the whole sleeping for seven years thing. Actually that leads me to believe that pedestals aren't the same.

[thabto81]

Nope, I'm not a follower of any theory

If you're not a follower of any theory then why are you here debating theories?

and I don't like this Western/Eastern one, because even if you hold that a new forest has sprung up to the north of Death Mountain (north of Death Mountain in OoT and west in ALttP), how would that forest have occurred on bare mountain rock (because that's all there is right next to Hyrule Castle Town)?

Actually, you don't really see what's to the west of Hyrule Castle Town in OoT. It's covered in clouds.

[FDL]

There is a forest behind the Temple of Time.

[SOAP]

Yes I know the pedestal in the Ocarina of Time is more of a silver color and the Wind Waker is more of a gold color. Still though it was just a suggestion, plus the Master Sword also has a different design in the Wind Waker than that of the Ocarina of Time. One must consider though that the developers took a different artistic view with the Wind Waker, from that of what was done in the Ocarina of Time, so everything is not going to look the same. Still though I am not saying my reason is right, because there could be several scenarios on how this could work out, but I am a firm believer that only the chosen hero can pull the sword from the pedestal. In A link to the Past it states that only a hero with a pure heart and a strong righteous body can wield the Master Sword. Also notice that Link cannot even pull the Master Sword from its petestal without the three sacred pendants of virtue. In the Ocarina of Time Rauru states that it is the blade that evil can never touch. In the Wind Waker Zelda was able to grab the sword, but much like Link she is destined by fate, and she much like Link is a bearer of one of the Triforce pieces. So it is understandable as to why she can hold the blade as well in my own opinion.

Ah, but perhaps you forget that King Daphnes had half the Triforce of Wisdom, having already given the other half to Tetra's ancestor so it's probable that he was destined with the Triforce of Wisdom (in his age). Therefore he should have been able to move the sword.

[Tri-Enforcer]

I'm still an advocate of only Link can pull the Sword out of the Pedestal.

Can you imagine someone else pulling it out, only for Link to arrive and find it's not there? Wouldn't that screw things up a tad? And what if that person was heroic but isn't mentally suited for the job...?

If it were somone else, then they'd be able to fiinish the job and were destined to do it as opposed to it being Link. I'm quite sure all those obstacles were only suited for one who would be able to go on to finish the job--in this case--only Link!