152 replies to this topic

[DarkJuno]

Let's be fair - before they even made the current crop of Marvel movies, who really ever thought of Iron Man, Captain America, or friggin' Thor were big heavy hitting well known properties? Yeah, comicbook fans and to a lesser extent cartoon watchers knew of them, but they were still far and away distantly behind Spider-man and the X-Men, two of the properties Marvel/Disney can't touch whatsoever movie-wise. Yeah, people knew enough of The Hulk through cultural osmosis, and Cap is known as "the guy who punched Hitler" but that was really it. If you had told me 5 years ago that Thor and Captain America would have movies made about them and have kids genuinely love them and want toys and merch of them with no shred of irony, I'd have called you crazy - yet here we are, I sell out of every Cap and Thor costume I get in along with the rest and it's pretty obviously going to be the hot boys costumes this year, just like last year. Before this the only Captain America costumes we sold were the intentionally corny adult ones sold as a gag, and now we have people clamoring for the more "serious" version and the shield.

Like already stated, it comes across like the people trying to make DC based movies either don't care or flat out hate the comcis they're based on or just go through the motions and throw the "required" elements in the script without caring if they make sense or not. Green Lantern would've been so much better if they either did the comic thing and left it as being a ring from a dying alien Hal found and keep it a straight, typical homegrown superhero story till teasing the corps at the end, or just flat out ignoring the home grown origin and story bits and throwing him straight into the Corps and into space and doing the whole space cop/cowboy thing, rather then trying to please people who like both versions and just ticking off everyone instead. They keep saying Geoff Johns helped with the story, but it looks like the only thing they kept was Hal angsting over his Father's death, which is probably one of the things from his run that I'd rather have less of. Total waste.

The thing about Wonder Woman is that it was greenlit and ready to go into pre-production and be a period piece done by Joss friggin' Weadon, but then got the plug pulled and quietly brushed away. Weadon is almost certainly not the perfect writer god his fanboys make him out to be, but that seemed like the best bet into getting a Wonder Woman movie made that balanced all her aspects correctly rather then....well, look up the pilot for the recent pitched TV show, that pretty much says it all. Much as I usually point at the DCAU as being my favorite versions of characters, I have to say that Wonder Woman was always kinda off to me. Had some pretty good moments and episodes, but much like Catwoman they gave her a good start on her story arc and some good points, but she ended up coming across just adequete rather then completely defining the character in my own eyes like Batman or Superman.

Speaking of whom, at this point, why not just take that three part opening to Superman as a starting point to making the movie? Tweak and adjust what you want/need to to make it work as a movie for the general public and not just Kids 6 - 10, but that's pretty much my favorite version of the origin story to date, certainly not perfect but it sets Superman and Clark Kent up to be pretty likeable and earnest guys. Yeah, corny, but you really believe this guy means what he says, and it sets up rich businessman Lex Luthor up swimmingly, rather then silly real estate comedy Luthor, or the alternate mad scientist in power suit going "MUST CRUSH SUPERMAN! MWAHAHAHAH" which for some reason is the only other version writers think is possible.

Still, Man of Steel looks interesting, though way too little to say much, and I don't like how desaturated the trailer is. Superman is ultimately about hope and a brighter tomorrow, and unless the movie itself gets brighter when Clark realizes his destiny, I'm not liking the choice. Some might say that's what makes him a hard character to be relevant - I say, no, it just means you have to do a better job of writing him to make it relevant.


...says the guy who likes Grant Morrison's All Star Superman, so I'm not the best person to judge him. <.<

[J-Roc]

I don't want to see a Wonderwoman movie it cannot be done the actress does not yet exist.

You sure?

Its like Button says, if all you needed for a female role was a hot ass we'd have plenty of options, but we need TALENT.

[JRPomazon]

I don't want to see a Wonderwoman movie it cannot be done the actress does not yet exist.

You sure?

Its like Button says, if all you needed for a female role was a hot ass we'd have plenty of options, but we need TALENT.

This is why Scarlett Johanson made for such a great Black Widow. Yeah sure she was attractive and dressed for the occasion but she wasn't there for sex appeal alone. To be frank, the character was so well written and so well portrayed that you didn't just think she was there to just be a nice pair of legs to break up the sausage fest of superheroes. She was just a bad ass, plain and simple and that was much more enjoyable to watch than if they just got someone to be there to look attractive in skin tight clothes.

They make a Wonder Woman movie, I don't want to see a Megan Fox or a whatever who looks good wearing next to nothing. I'd find it more interesting if she was a tough looking gal, you know, an amazon. It would make more sense to see a actor portraying the character who looked like the kind of woman who could break something in half.

[Sir Deimos]

I actually think her performance wasn't that great as Black Widow... so many lines delivered in a bland unemotional monotone... Maybe that's partially the character, but damn.

[J-Roc]

And let me take this oppurtunity to thumbs down TDKR's Catwoman.... hard.

[Stew]

And let me take this oppurtunity to thumbs down TDKR's Catwoman.... hard.

Turn in your badge and penis. You are no longer a man.

[Selena]

On behalf of my people, your lesbian card is also revoked.

[J-Roc]

And let me take this oppurtunity to thumbs down TDKR's Catwoman.... hard.

Turn in your badge and penis. You are no longer a man.

On behalf of my people, your lesbian card is also revoked.

Uh, you misconstrue. Yes, Anne Hathaway is fuckable. No, Anne Hathaway is not Catwoman. She was horrible! HORRRRRRRRRIBBBBBBBBBBBLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Selena]

You have yet to specify reasons.


I mean, no, she wasn't a super-developed three dimensional character, but the film also wasn't about her.

[Sir Deimos]

The film gave you tiny glimpses of the person underneath and that was all. And it was all they needed. To develop her on top of all the other things going on would have ruined the pacing the second half manages so brilliantly. Not to mention cluttering an already dense story.

[Selena]

The Joker is also technically just as undeveloped -- all one-dimensional charisma.

[J-Roc]

The Joker is also technically just as undeveloped -- all one-dimensional charisma.

Exactly, which would have been better then what we got with Hathaway. She just does not potray a convincing heroine. She is not tough, she is not the person she was supposed to be. Although, I will concede that I don't know who would have been better for the part. But I wouldn't blame the script, thats the action of a weak actor to blame the script.

[Selena]

Who was she "supposed" to be? Her portrayal in DKR isn't that far off from the comics and traditional portrayals.

Catwoman has never been a "tough" villain compared with the majority of Batman characters. Rule of cool has her doing a lot of fighting here and there, but her main strength is stealth. She's discreet. She's slinky. She's catlike. She sneaks into a place, takes what she wants, then slips out before anyone can get there to stop her. She's a burglar, not a brawler. She is also not a heroine and never has been. She's always skirted the line between villain and anti-hero, only rarely falling into full-blown "hero" mode. And that's always short-lived as far as the comics are concerned.

She's self-interested and has fluctuating priorities, though she often has a sympathetic background. Rises touched on that, insinuating that she was led into her lifestyle to survive hardship, yet also suggested that she enjoyed her line of work. She's never a "leading" villain because she's a hedonist without any desire to harm Gotham in a major way -- the fat and rich are easier to steal from. Which is why she alternates between working for "bigger" villains, who will allow her to line her pockets, and saving Gotham from major catastrophe.

So, all in all, I think she was pretty true to her traditional character. Significantly more accurate than Pfeiffer's version -- though Pfeiffer made that role into something really fun, off-kilter, and desperately unhinged.

There were moments that were camp / unrealistic / there for show -- like her pinning the man's arm against the wall using her spiked heels. ...Not only is that difficult to do, but it also throws you off balance, has no power behind it, and leather always keeps you from being super flexible like that. But hey. Catwoman. If you can't throw in the Pfeiffer lick, you can at least do that.

But I wouldn't blame the script, thats the action of a weak actor to blame the script.

No. Good actors can occasionally salvage corny dialogue and bring weight to a shallow role, but a truly terrible script means the entire backbone of the movie - from pacing to characterization - is broken from the start and won't ever work. Directors are also a big factor, since they have the ultimate say about how far an actor can stretch things.

Fortunately, while DKR has a slow and choppy first act, the script wasn't a major issue. All of the characters generally "work" even though they're one-dimensional. Most movie characters are. Unless you're watching one of those touchy-feely movies without explosions.

[J-Roc]

I just can't seem to qunatify it, I wonder what you all think is so great about what she did?

[Veteran]

As soon as she did a wounded gazelle gambit, I loved her. She even did it twice!

[Crimson Lego]

For me, it was just:

1. Anne Hathaway.

Spoiler

2. The way the whole conflict changed her from cat burglar to freedom fighter deal/Batman sidekick, or something along those lines. Like, before she had no problem with stealing, but then in that one scene where her friend was saying 'Now it's everyone's home,' she didn't look too happy about it. And I think Hathaway showed that change well.

In any case, I'm seeing this again on Saturday night with my soccer team, so I'm gonna keep an eye out for any details I missed before.

[J-Roc]

Listen listen listen.... I'm sorry... have memez

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Edited by The Dude, 15 August 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Selena]

*shrug* She's not great, but she's also not bad. It was a solid showing.

Just as you're confused about why someone would like her, I'm confused as to what you wanted out of her character.

Because Hathaway's version is... pretty much how the character's been portrayed for a long time. She's selfish and, at least on the surface, unwilling to help others. She has a troubled past that she doesn't enjoy talking about. She has morals, but pretends not to. She's obsessed with the thrill of the hunt and the chase. She masks her true feelings - whether light or dark - with sarcasm.

Hathaway's version touched all those bases. If anything, the main fault of this version is that she's too nice rather than not heroic enough. The "real" Catwoman wouldn't have run off with Bruce. She'd have given him a teasing grin and kept up her criminal pursuits because it was pure fun. But the "real" Batman also would have behaved somewhat differently than Bale's version of the character. The Nolan universe is it's own thing, to a certain extent.

It's probably the most accurate version of Selina that's been seen on screen in a long time. The classic show is pure camp. Pfeiffer is fun, but her version was a very unique character that isn't really connected to the real one. The DCAU version wasn't ever allowed to be too villainous, at least not at first. Considering that she's playing the grim, realistic version of Selina, Hathaway did a fine job. Not jaw-dropping amazing, but did justice to the character.

Spoiler

Talia had the bigger development issues, but that's because her main function was "the big reveal plot twist," which limited her. She's not "herself" for 9/10th of the movie, and we only get snippets about her background and true nature.

[J-Roc]

Probably none of this is a spoiler but I really don't want to ruin this movie for anyone.

Spoiler

I understood that this was its own thing. Preconceived notions of what I wanted from the years of cartoons and books and blah blah blah were not the reasons I hated the characters. I hated Bane because he was Darth Connery which was just a bizarre choice.

Catwoman was just an uneven character. Again, I can't quantify it she just wasn't written in a very enticing way. In spite of the fact that Letterman had given me this notion that Batman might die from about the ten minute mark in I came to the conclusion that Batman would not only survive but probably triumph epically. Catwoman merely facilitated that, regardless of anything you thought you saw out of her I saw her as nothing more then a convenient platform to help Batman beat impossible odds. Damn, tons of things bothered me about this movie. It was just too freakin' loose. We spent tons of time on teary monologues about how sad everyone was about Bruce Wayne going nutbars but we didn't bother to explain the clusterfuck that Bane created. We had cops trapped underground for a month and just too much crap going on. The last half of the movie felt so forced it was ridiculous.

[Sir Deimos]

How did it feel forced? You don't like Catwoman because she was a vehicle to achieve a goal? All characters are vehicles. But not all destinations are plot related. I'm having trouble comprehending how you didn't like any of what happened.

[Selena]

Spoiler

There are definitely moments where the felt forced or a bit choppy, yes. I still maintain that the first act of the movie was very slow to get rolling and had moments where things didn't feel balanced. And while I didn't mind the ending, Bruce's survival is entirely unexplained and - without being shown otherwise - very unlikely given the conversations that led up to his "end run." Trapping the entire police for is also unrealistic for many reasons. The biggest of which is no sane institution would order the vast majority of their force to deal with a single assignment in cramped quarters like that. The nuke is also a convenient way for Bruce to die in a noble way rather than to have viewers see Batman utterly and completely defeated by something. But the nuke is actually one of the more acceptable plot devices, since, well, the League of Shadows wanted to destroy Gotham from day one.

It's easy to see where the writers forced things to happen, though I still found it to be an enjoyable ride. However, all of that is a critique on the plot and not the characters. Although they intertwine, the plot and the characters are two separate things. It's possible to have a good character arc even if the main plot is atrocious.

I didn't find Selina to be uneven at all. She had fairly consistent character building. Arguably better than some of the other characters in the series. If the complaint is that she often switches between villain and hero, that's consistent with Catwoman's character. She doesn't care about anyone else or their personal crusades, whether light or dark. But her decisions aren't made on a whim. She always has a reason for her choices. She supports whoever is going to get her what she wants. For the first half of the film, that's the bad guys. Later, after they've gone too far, she ceases to play along. Being self-interested, she's then prepared to leave Gotham by herself. Bruce offers her the clean slate and appeals to what conscience she does have. At that point, she begrudgingly supports him in the endgame.

She's portrayed as being simultaneously thrilled and repulsed by her lifestyle. She's gotten into it against her will, and finds the adrenaline thrilling, but - like Batman - she wants out. She's guarded and selfish, but has a morality threshold that she can't bring herself to cross. All of that remains consistent throughout the film.

So while I more than understand why you'd think the plot is heavy-handed at times, I can't what's wrong with Selina's actual character. Or how she "just isn't" Catwoman.

[Sir Deimos]

Spoiler

Maybe it's just me, but the only part that really felt forced, and completely stupid, was Bane reading Gordon's original Dent Day speech. So because a terrorist reads something aloud claiming it was written by a police commissioner, that makes it trustworthy?

[J-Roc]

Great post Lena I think its because most of what you said was implied.

[Crimson Lego]

Spoiler

Maybe it's just me, but the only part that really felt forced, and completely stupid, was Bane reading Gordon's original Dent Day speech. So because a terrorist reads something aloud claiming it was written by a police commissioner, that makes it trustworthy?

Spoiler

It was probably meant more to appeal to the Blackgate prisoners and have them rally to Bane's banner or whatnot. The middle-class and higher citizens probably assumed that it was one of Bane's hoaxes.

If I remember correctly, Gordon took out the speech in the beginning before putting it away? Maybe other people saw him do it and then believed Bane really had gotten his hands on the speech.

[Sir Deimos]

It was retarded.

[Crimson Lego]

Saw it against Saturday night; not much different from the first time around, but I was able to understand Bane a little better since I had the general gist of what he was getting to.

[J-Roc]

Spoiler

I'll be honest, I was expecting Bane, upon discovering Batman had made it out of the Pit, to say "You're the man now, dog!"

[TheAvengerLever]

Spoiler

Bane: So, you came back to die with your city!"

Batman: THIS CITY...JUST SHOWED YOU...THAT IT'S FULL...OF PEOPLE!

Bane: ...

Batman: ...

*commence fighting*

My favorite thing to do in Arkham City:

Random Inmate: Why doesn't anyone ever answer those goddamn phones!?

Me: THIS CITY...JUST SHOWED YOU...THAT IT'S FULL...OF PEOPLE...WHO DON'T LIKE TO ANSWER THE PHONES!

Edited by TheAvengerButton, 20 August 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[Sir Deimos]

Spoiler

Bane: So, you came back to die with your city!"

Batman: THIS CITY...JUST SHOWED YOU...THAT IT'S FULL...OF PEOPLE!

Bane: ...

Batman: ...

*commence fighting*

My favorite thing to do in Arkham City:

Random Inmate: Why doesn't anyone ever answer those goddamn phones!?

Me: THIS CITY...JUST SHOWED YOU...THAT IT'S FULL...OF PEOPLE...WHO DON'T LIKE TO ANSWER THE PHONES!

[J-Roc]

Whatta bitch!