14 replies to this topic

[Thanatos-Zero]

Greetings new and old scholars of the Zelda lore. I had been discussing on the Zelda Universe Forum for months now to which point of time was Link send back by Zelda.
Was it before he ever meet Zelda? Or was it before he draw the Master Sword?

For those who don't understand the OoT Child Ending

From my point of view I came to the conclusion, that Link was send back in time, before he ever meet with Zelda.

1. The intention of Adult Zelda.

ありがとう　リンク… あなたの力で　ガノンドロフは 闇の世界に　封印されました。 これで　この世界も　ふたたび 平和な時を　刻み始めるでしょう。
これまでの　悲劇は すべて　私の　あやまちです… おのれの　未熟さを　かえりみず、 聖地を　制御しようとし… さらに　あなたまで この争いに　巻き込んでしまった。 今こそ　私は　その　あやまちを 正さねばなりません。 マスターソードを　眠りにつかせ… 「時の扉」を　閉ざすのです。
けれど… その時、時を旅する道も 閉ざされてしまいます…
リンク、 オカリナを　私に… 今の私なら、賢者として この　時のオカリナで　あなたを 元の時代に　帰してあげられます。
ハイラルに　平和が戻る時… それが… 私たちの　別れの時なのです…ね。
さあ　帰りなさい　リンク 失われた時を　取り戻すために！ あなたが　いるべきところへ… あなたが　あるべき姿で…
ありがとう… リンク… さようなら…
Thank you, Link… Thanks to your power, Ganondorf has been sealed in the world of darkness. Now this world will once again begin a time of peace.
All of the tragedy up to this point has been my fault… I attempted to control the Sacred Land without considering my inexperience… I even got you involved in this conflict. Now I must correct that mistake. Lay the Master Sword to sleep… and close the “Door of Time”.
But… When you do, the road to travel in time will also close…
Link, Give the ocarina to me… Right now, I, as a sage, can return you to your original era with this Ocarina of Time.
When peace returns to Hyrule… That’s when… We must part…right?
Now, return, Link. So that you can regain the lost time! To where you should be… To the form you should have…
Thank you… Link… Farewell…
Thank you, Link... Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm! Thus, peace will once again reign in this world...for a time.
All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule was my doing... I was so young...I could not comprehend the consequences of trying to control the Sacred Realm. I dragged you into it, too. Now it is time for me to make up for my mistakes... You must lay the Master Sword to rest and close the Door of Time...
However, by doing this, the road between times will be closed...
Link, give the Ocarina to me... As a Sage, I can return you to your original time with it.
When peace returns to Hyrule... It will be time for us to say good-bye...
Now, go home, Link. Regain your lost time! Home… where you are supposed to be... the way you are supposed to be...
Thank you... Link... Good-bye....

Instead to tell Link to go back in the time by his own, to the very moment before he draw the Master Sword, Zelda wants to make up for her mistakes by involving him in her plans in the first place. To be noted should be that she send Link to his "original era".

2. After Ganondorf left Hyrule Castle to haunt Zelda, the security was beefed up to a point, which made it Link impossible to pass the soldier in order to get into the Courtyard.

3. Link lacks the Goron Bracelet, which indicates that he never played Saria's Song in front of Darunia or that he never visited the Gorons on that timeline. He even looks at his arms.

4. The way Zelda reacts, is the same as she did for the very first meeting. After that she greets you always, when you return to her, until you get the third and last Sacred Stone.

5. The circumstances after the third stone. Zelda was chased and was forced into hiding.

ゼルダ様のオカリナを　持つ少年… やはり、来てくれたか… 私は　シーカー族の　インパ。 ゼルダ様の　乳母であり、闇の神殿を守る　賢者でもある…
我々　シーカー族は、代々　ハイラル王家の　下僕として 仕えてきた…　しかし…
七年前の　あの日… ガノンドロフの　突然の襲撃… ハイラル城は　まもなく　陥落した。
ガノンドロフの　目的は 聖地へのカギの一つ…　王家の秘宝 時のオカリナだったのだ。
私の役目は、ゼルダ様を ガノンドロフの　手の届かぬ場所へ お連れすることだった…
Boy who has Zelda-sama’s ocarina… So you indeed came… I am Impa of the Sheikah tribe. I am Zelda-sama’s nursemaid and the Sage who guards the Darkness Temple…
We of the Sheikah tribe have served as the servants of the Hyrule Royal Family for generations… But…
On that day seven years ago… When Ganondorf suddenly attacked… Hyrule Castle fell after a short time.
Ganondorf’s aim was one of the keys to the Sacred Land… the secret treasure of the Royal Family, the Ocarina of Time.
My duty was to take Zelda-sama to a place where Ganondorf could not reach her…
The boy with the noble Zelda's Ocarina...As I expected, you have come. I am Impa, one of the Sheikah. I am Princess Zelda's caretaker, and I am also the Sage who guards the Shadow Temple.
We Sheikah have served the royalty of Hyrule from generation to generation as attendants. However...
On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.
Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family...The Ocarina of Time!
My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach.

Since she said that Hyrule Castle fell after a short time, it wouldn't be a impossible feat for Ganondorf to exterminate the rest of the soldiers, based on the appearance of him when he came unharmed out of the city.
As for Impa's duty to keep away Zelda from Ganondorf's reach, was one of her duties. Therefore even if Zelda had for the moment the idea to return to the castle, Impa wouldn't have allowed it, since the Castle proved for Ganondorf no obstacle to overcome.

6. The interim between OoT and MM were several months, in which Zelda and Link spend their days peacefully together.
The execution of Ganondorf was several years later.


However there are also some points against them.

- Zelda tells him to close the Door of Time and to lay the Master Sword to rest.

- If he would be send back in time before he ever met Zelda, he would be entombed alive in the Master Sword Chamber.

- The shield you have at the end with you. If you have never collected a Hylia Shield during the game and it appears at the ending, it would render the Goron Bracelet as ameaning less bug.


I want to know, which theory is the mostlogical scenario, without to cause to many contradictions.

Edited by Thanatos-Zero, 29 October 2010 - 09:25 AM.

[SOAP]

I thought TP finally laid that debate to rest once and for all.

Conceivably, the Door of Time could have been opened from the inside, either by the power of the Ocarina of Time, or some other mechanism.

Personally though, I think he's returned to the moment he touches the Master Sword so that the Door of Time was already opened, but the pathway to the Sacred Realm wasn't. To an outside observer, such as Ganondorf stalking Link in the shadows perhaps HINT-HINT, it would appear as though Link placed the final spiritual stone on the pedestal, played a diddy on the Ocarina, opened the Door of Time, touched a blade hidden the back chamber, and then went home or whatever. Without the path opened to the Sacred Realm, Ganondorf plans are thwarted, at least for the moment. Hence he goes into hiding. After several months, Zelda probably returns to the Castle once the threat of Ganondorf died down and the second meeting in the courtyard could happen then. Just because one scene immediately follows the other doesn't necessarily mean Link went straight to see Zelda after leaving the Temple of Time. Though that's kinda the impression you get from the ending though. TP however implies that Ganondorf never accomplished his mission of entering Sacred Realm, hence the Sages' collective dismay when he has the ToP anyways.

[MikePetersSucks]

What Soap said, every word.

[Showsni]

I have him sent back to the last time he drew the sword, like all the other time travel in OoT. But then, I put the "adult" and "child" bits of OoT on the same timeline. And have TP off on its own as a what if kind of thing.

Single timeliner forever!

[Average Gamer]

I believe that Link was sent back to a time before he ever met Zelda. If Zelda sent Link back to a point where the Spiritual Stone events had already happened and Link was known to Ganon, she wouldn't really be making up for anything. Link would have still been dragged into Zelda's plans, and Ganon and his minions could hunt Link down to claim vengeance, forcing him to live on the run and in fear for his life. By sending Link to a point before he first met her, Zelda would be truly living up to her word and correcting the mistake of getting Link involved in her plans.

これまでの　悲劇は すべて　私の　あやまちです… おのれの　未熟さを　かえりみず、 聖地を　制御しようとし… さらに　あなたまで この争いに　巻き込んでしまった。 今こそ　私は　その　あやまちを 正さねばなりません。 マスターソードを　眠りにつかせ… 「時の扉」を　閉ざすのです。
All of the tragedy up to this point has been my fault… I attempted to control the Sacred Land without considering my inexperience… I even got you involved in this conflict. Now I must correct that mistake.

This would also explain how Link accessed the courtyard and why Zelda was terrified to see him, as the castle's security wouldn't have been increased yet and he would have been a complete stranger to her. I also find this scenario to best fit with what Aonuma said about Link and Zelda's conversation sending their relationship with Ganon in an entirely new direction. If Link told Zelda to abandon her plans, Ganon would have been unable to exploit the children and his own plans would have failed. In time, he would have been exposed and arrested, matching up with Aonuma's comment about the execution occurring several years after OoT's CT ending. Link would have also failed to be a blip on the radar, allowing him to freely live out his life and make his own choices. It explains why Ganon didn't comment on TP Link's appearance or tunic as well.

There's more I could say, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Edited by Average Gamer, 30 October 2010 - 10:37 PM.

[SOAP]

I believe that Link was sent back to a time before he ever met Zelda. If Zelda sent Link back to a point where the Spiritual Stone events had already happened and Link was known to Ganon, she wouldn't really be making up for anything.

That's an extremely good point.

It explains why Ganon didn't comment on TP Link's appearance or tunic as well.

This too. I didn't even think to consider that fact.

The reason I place it later on though is when Link is sent back in time, he's sent back to his younger body which is in the Temple of Time, much like all the other times he goes back. If he was sent back way before he even met Zelda, why not send him back to his bed in Kokiri Village when he first wakes up? Was his younger body snatched up from Kokiri Village and transported to the Temple? Or was a copy manifested out of thin air, *making it two Links running around Hyrule? In either case, why does Link step back from the sword as if he just touched it if he's being sent back to before he even entered the Temple and the last thing he was doing in the future was standing in front of Zelda? Of course, all of these I guess are just minor flaws and can be handwaved away, still I prefer theories that make me ask the least amount of questions. The Door of Time being open when he returns is actually not a big deal to me though.

My second reason for placing his return within the split second after he crossed the Door of Time but before the Sacred Realm was opened is because this is the most pivotal moment that set the course of Ganon's reign in OoT's Dark Future, other than Link and Zelda's courtyard meeting. This way may not be as clean a slate as future Zelda erasing their initial meeting, but this way Link's involvement in thwarting Ganondorf is bigger than a mere whistleblower. Link would still be able to regain his lost time free of Ganondorf since the entrance to Sacred Realm is never opened, perhaps leading Ganondorf to assume either Link was not the chosen one and the Sword rejected him, or that whole legend about the Temple of Time leading to Sacred Realm was just a myth. Either way Ganondorf would then flee and go into hiding since his plans are essentially foiled and he's a wanted man for having recently attacked Hyrule Castle making him public enemy number one. Harassing a boy from the forest wouldn't exactly be high on his priority list.

[Thanatos-Zero]

Of course, all of these I guess are just minor flaws and can be handwaved away, still I prefer theories that make me ask the least amount of questions. The Door of Time being open when he returns is actually not a big deal to me though.

That is my goal, to create a theory and scenario, which rises the most less questions.
Also have you taken a look into the link, I have posted in my first post?


As for Ganondorf's actions in the Child Timeline, I have assumed that he would still try to raise his reputation in order to gain more influence on the royal family and the king, in order to gain the keys for the sacred realm. However since Link and Zelda decided to go a different way to handle Ganondorf by doing nothing, he later would become impatient in the following years and started to wreak havok around Hyrule to finally get what he wants. In the end he was subdued and and sentenced to death due execution, but it failed because the Triforce of Power protected him unknown to his knowledge. This the way how I have imagined for the "Send back in time before he ever meet Zelda in the first place" Theory.
Here the actual developer quote.

–When does Twilight Princess take place?

Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.

–And the Wind Waker?

Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

However this part confuses me, because of the wording.

It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be

Who decided it? The Sages? Link and Zelda? Or was it the intention of the developers?
I want a retranslation of the quote, if possible.

[FDL]

While I'm still not necessarily of the opinion he needs to have been sent back before any of his child timeline heroics including drawing the Master Sword and so on, as I think the "Triforce's power let him become an Evil King" line doesn't necessarily imply the second he got it he could take over Hyrule in an instant, if I have to choose between the two mentioned here, I'd go with SOAP's idea. I think it fits much better that way overall. It explains why Link is still a storied hero of Hyrule's history(which I think is definitely important and I don't like the idea that it's not) as well as the points already mentioned. But as I said, I'm still not sure I'd agree with the idea that Ganondorf getting the Triforce and knowing he has it=definite bad end, nor do I believe the Gods were literally playing a divine prank at all.

[MikePetersSucks]

1) Link, from the timeline's perspective, lifts the Master Sword, and then sets it down.
2) Zelda, having received a vision of changed history, returns to the castle when she normally wouldn't.
3) She meets Link, who has the Triforce of Courage, which causes the Triforce to split.
4) "Yo dawg Ganondorf's rapin everybody out dere, we gon' find you."
5) King sees Triforce mark, gets the Sages to do that sealing business.
6) "...oh, wait, shit, I have a Triforce too? lol time2fuckupSages."
7) Rest of the story.

I don't see what's so hard about this.

[FDL]

Was that at me, MPS?

[MikePetersSucks]

No, at generally everyone.

[FDL]

I see. Regardless, I definitely see that course of events as possible.

[Average Gamer]

The reason I place it later on though is when Link is sent back in time, he's sent back to his younger body which is in the Temple of Time, much like all the other times he goes back. If he was sent back way before he even met Zelda, why not send him back to his bed in Kokiri Village when he first wakes up? Was his younger body snatched up from Kokiri Village and transported to the Temple? Or was a copy manifested out of thin air, *making it two Links running around Hyrule?

My stance is that the Master Sword chamber in the Temple of Time was the point most connected to time, so Link was simply sent there.

In either case, why does Link step back from the sword as if he just touched it if he's being sent back to before he even entered the Temple and the last thing he was doing in the future was standing in front of Zelda?

Link never actually steps back from the sword as if he touched it. When Link is sent to the past, he is simply standing in front of the Pedestal of Time with his hands by his sides.

My second reason for placing his return within the split second after he crossed the Door of Time but before the Sacred Realm was opened is because this is the most pivotal moment that set the course of Ganon's reign in OoT's Dark Future, other than Link and Zelda's courtyard meeting. This way may not be as clean a slate as future Zelda erasing their initial meeting, but this way Link's involvement in thwarting Ganondorf is bigger than a mere whistleblower.

Perhaps, but Link did ultimately become a key figure in Ganon's plans, so Ganon or his minions might try to hunt down Link in revenge for failing to open the Sacred Realm. If Link was sent to a point before he ever met Zelda, he'd stay under the radar and thus wouldn't draw any negative attention.

Also, if Ganon had already revealed himself to be an enemy of Hyrule, what would Link and Zelda's second talk accomplish? Aonuma stated that the conversation is what completely changed their relationship with Ganon, but if they spoke after the Spiritual Stone incidents, I really don't see what they could have done.

1) Link, from the timeline's perspective, lifts the Master Sword, and then sets it down.

However, judging from the instances in which Link is surrounded by blue light, he appears to essentially be paralyzed until the light fades. This is true even when Rauru is simply teleporting Link from the Chamber of Sages to the Temple of Time after their first meeting. With this in mind, if Link was sent back to a point immediately after he drew the Master Sword, isn't it possible that the blade would just paralyze him and do its thing the second Zelda's spell was done, thus repeating history?

2) Zelda, having received a vision of changed history, returns to the castle when she normally wouldn't.

Have you had that idea for a while, or is it something you came up with after reading that ZU thread? I really don't see why the timeline split would give Zelda a new vision, and the area around the Castle still seems to be dangerous after Ganon's betrayal.

3) She meets Link, who has the Triforce of Courage, which causes the Triforce to split.
4) "Yo dawg Ganondorf's rapin everybody out dere, we gon' find you."
5) King sees Triforce mark, gets the Sages to do that sealing business.
6) "...oh, wait, shit, I have a Triforce too? lol time2fuckupSages."
7) Rest of the story.

While I don't necessarily agree with all of these points, your theory is definitely one of the most reasonable ones I have seen. One question though; in your theory, would Link suspect that the CT Triforce split gave Ganon the ToP? I'm asking this because Link knew firsthand that a ToP-wielding Ganon was immortal, so I don't see why he would have decided upon an execution.

as I think the "Triforce's power let him become an Evil King" line doesn't necessarily imply the second he got it he could take over Hyrule in an instant,

Various quotes in the game state that several things happened on "That day seven years ago." It seems to be implied that the day everyone speaks of was the same day, and two of the events that happened back then were Ganon entering the Sacred Realm and conquering Hyrule.

[Aiden]

4) "Yo dawg Ganondorf's rapin everybody out dere, we gon' find you."

He's climin' in yo' castles, he's snatchin' your princess up...

[FDL]

Various quotes in the game state that several things happened on "That day seven years ago." It seems to be implied that the day everyone speaks of was the same day, and two of the events that happened back then were Ganon entering the Sacred Realm and conquering Hyrule.

The references to "that day seven years ago" are pretty much about Ganondorf revealing himself to be a traitor, not about him taking over Hyrule. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember it ever referencing that, whereas Link is shown doing quite a few things after Ganondorf's initial kidnapping attempt and The Wind Waker mentions he conquered Hyrule with an army as opposed to Falcon Punching the castle and it's king the day he got the Triforce.

Not in the mood for a big debate on this, but I honestly don't agree with a lot of the logic behind what makes it "obvious" or a safe bet that Link was sent that far back in time. I guess it's why it's an argument I've taken to involving myself with as often as I have.

Edited by FDL, 03 November 2010 - 12:30 AM.

[Average Gamer]

Various quotes in the game state that several things happened on "That day seven years ago." It seems to be implied that the day everyone speaks of was the same day, and two of the events that happened back then were Ganon entering the Sacred Realm and conquering Hyrule.

The references to "that day seven years ago" are pretty much about Ganondorf revealing himself to be a traitor, not about him taking over Hyrule.

I'll search for some quotes, but at the moment I recall Impa stating that Hyrule Castle fell on the same day that Ganon initially attacked it. As the castle was still standing before Link drew the Master Sword, it seems that Ganon claimed the ToP then returned to Hyrule and conquered it in one day. There are other statements, but I'm busy watching the American midterm election results at the moment.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember it ever referencing that, whereas Link is shown doing quite a few things after Ganondorf's initial kidnapping attempt

True, but storywise, the plot freezes on that day. My belief is that Link obtaining the Lens of Truth and meeting Nabooru simply took place at later times storywise on the same day.

and The Wind Waker mentions he conquered Hyrule with an army as opposed to Falcon Punching the castle and it's king the day he got the Triforce.

This is true, though considering the rage he was left in during OoT's ending, I figured that he was intentionally going for overkill. An army would be convenient anyway.

[FDL]

I'll search for some quotes, but at the moment I recall Impa stating that Hyrule Castle fell on the same day that Ganon initially attacked it. As the castle was still standing before Link drew the Master Sword, it seems that Ganon claimed the ToP then returned to Hyrule and conquered it in one day. There are other statements, but I'm busy watching the American midterm election results at the moment.

Impa says Hyrule Castle surrendered a short time later, which is pretty ambiguous. And implies that they Hylians didn't really put up a fight, which is another thing that would presumably change with Link's presence and encouragement.

True, but storywise, the plot freezes on that day. My belief is that Link obtaining the Lens of Truth and meeting Nabooru simply took place at later times storywise on the same day.

Not sure I agree with you there. For one thing, isn't it implied by MM's opening text and Kaepora Gaebora's final lines in OoT that word began to spread about a boy who could travel through time? Kinda hard to do if all his exploits fall on one day. Though that's not my only reason for not necessarily agreeing.

This is true, though considering the rage he was left in during OoT's ending, I figured that he was intentionally going for overkill. An army would be convenient anyway.

Not sure which part you're referring to, you mean his rage after being sealed by the Sages?

[MikePetersSucks]

However, judging from the instances in which Link is surrounded by blue light, he appears to essentially be paralyzed until the light fades. This is true even when Rauru is simply teleporting Link from the Chamber of Sages to the Temple of Time after their first meeting. With this in mind, if Link was sent back to a point immediately after he drew the Master Sword, isn't it possible that the blade would just paralyze him and do its thing the second Zelda's spell was done, thus repeating history?

Not at all. The Master Sword sent Link to the future by basically knocking him out. In this timeline, he is knocked out for only a split second, or maybe nothing happens at all. It doesn't really matter, so long as no appreciable window for anyone to go to the Sacred Realm is created.

Have you had that idea for a while, or is it something you came up with after reading that ZU thread? I really don't see why the timeline split would give Zelda a new vision, and the area around the Castle still seems to be dangerous after Ganon's betrayal.

I've been kicking around parts of the idea for a bit, and only recently cobbled it together.

Anyway, if the future changes, then visions about the future would obviously change. It's not rocket science.

While I don't necessarily agree with all of these points, your theory is definitely one of the most reasonable ones I have seen. One question though; in your theory, would Link suspect that the CT Triforce split gave Ganon the ToP? I'm asking this because Link knew firsthand that a ToP-wielding Ganon was immortal, so I don't see why he would have decided upon an execution.

I don't think he realizes at all. For one, it's not necessary for Link to actually possess awareness of the Triforce of Courage, and even if he did, he might just think "Oh, I brought it back in time with me, herp a derp." Link doesn't really know much about all these metaphysical mechanics, y'know?

[Average Gamer]

Impa says Hyrule Castle surrendered a short time later, which is pretty ambiguous.

Possibly, but it sounds as if she's framing the events within "that day" she mentions.

And implies that they Hylians didn't really put up a fight, which is another thing that would presumably change with Link's presence and encouragement.

I don't see how it implies that the Hylians didn't put up a fight. It just sounds as if Ganon was too powerful for them to defeat.

Not sure I agree with you there. For one thing, isn't it implied by MM's opening text and Kaepora Gaebora's final lines in OoT that word began to spread about a boy who could travel through time?

MM's opening text only states that Link's tale is handed down by the Royal Family.

ハイラルに伝わる王家の伝説　そこに一人の少年が登場する
In Hyrule, a legend is handed down by the royal family in which a lone boy appears
In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...

巨悪と戦いハイラルを救ったのち　彼は、伝説から姿を消した
After saving Hyrule by battling a great evil, he disappeared from legend
A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from the land that had made him a legend...

時をこえた戦いを終え　彼は人知れず旅に出た
Done with the battles that exceeded time, he embarked on a secret journey
Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey. A secret and personal journey...

冒険の終わりで　別れた　かけかえのない　友を探す旅に……
A journey in search of an irreplaceable friend he had parted with at the end of the adventure……
A journey in search of a beloved and invaluable friend... A friend with whom he parted ways when he finally fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends...

With that in mind, Link could have simply told Zelda about his entire adventure/the AT. As for Kaepora Gaebora's final lines, he seems to be referring to the prophecy in general, which existed long before Link was born.

Though that's not my only reason for not necessarily agreeing.

If you have the time, would you mind sharing some of your other reasons?

Not sure which part you're referring to, you mean his rage after being sealed by the Sages?

Yes, that and his angry vow of vengeance.

I wrote the following in a rush. Sorry if it's unclear.

Not at all. The Master Sword sent Link to the future by basically knocking him out. In this timeline, he is knocked out for only a split second, or maybe nothing happens at all. It doesn't really matter, so long as no appreciable window for anyone to go to the Sacred Realm is created.

Yes, but what I'm saying is that Link seems to be paralyzed by the Master Sword before he is knocked out. What would prevent the Master Sword from keeping him paralyzed or immediately paralyzing him again?

I've been kicking around parts of the idea for a bit, and only recently cobbled it together.

Anyway, if the future changes, then visions about the future would obviously change. It's not rocket science.

Perhaps, though I see the timeline spilt as sort of an outside event that wasn't taken into account by time. In other words, it butted its way into the timeline rather than being a natural, predicted event. Zelda's initial prophecies would also still arguably be true, just not on the CT, and the Castle Town area would be dangerous anyway, so I don't see why Zelda would almost immediately try to return to the castle on the CT.

I don't think he realizes at all. For one, it's not necessary for Link to actually possess awareness of the Triforce of Courage, and even if he did, he might just think "Oh, I brought it back in time with me, herp a derp."

That might possibly work, though if the king noticed Link's Triforce mark and Link visited Zelda for a few months (the time between OoT's CT ending and MM), one would think that Zelda's ToW might eventually react.

Edited by Average Gamer, 04 November 2010 - 01:59 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yes, but what I'm saying is that Link seems to be paralyzed by the Master Sword before he is knocked out. What would prevent the Master Sword from keeping him paralyzed or immediately paralyzing him again?

Because he is putting it down, just like when he wakes up in the Child Timeline; this isn't difficult, it's the same mechanic we've been dealing with the whole game.

Perhaps, though I see the timeline spilt as sort of an outside event that wasn't taken into account by time. In other words, it butted its way into the timeline rather than being a natural, predicted event. Zelda's initial prophecies would also still arguably be true, just not on the CT, and the Castle Town area would be dangerous anyway, so I don't see why Zelda would almost immediately try to return to the castle on the CT.

It doesn't matter. Child Zelda saw Adult Timeline. The timeline is changed from what she saw. Therefore, her visions would change, since they are visions of the future, which are different.

As for why she would return to the Castle despite the danger, the vision said so.

That might possibly work, though if the king noticed Link's Triforce mark and Link visited Zelda for a few months (the time between OoT's CT ending and MM), one would think that Zelda's ToW might eventually react.

Maybe it did. The Triforce mark was glowing in the ending and Link didn't react. Hell, how many times have Triforce marks glowed without the owners react? It seems to just be a light with no actual physical sensation.

[FDL]

Possibly, but it sounds as if she's framing the events within "that day" she mentions.

I don't think so. A "short time later" usually refers to less than, say, a month but more than the same day I think.

I don't see how it implies that the Hylians didn't put up a fight. It just sounds as if Ganon was too powerful for them to defeat.

Because they didn't fight to the last man or hold out for a while. They literally surrendered, and did so shortly after Zelda went missing.

MM's opening text only states that Link's tale is handed down by the Royal Family.

ハイラルに伝わる王家の伝説　そこに一人の少年が登場する
In Hyrule, a legend is handed down by the royal family in which a lone boy appears
In the land of Hyrule, there echoes a legend. A legend held dearly by the Royal Family that tells of a boy...

巨悪と戦いハイラルを救ったのち　彼は、伝説から姿を消した
After saving Hyrule by battling a great evil, he disappeared from legend
A boy who, after battling evil and saving Hyrule, crept away from the land that had made him a legend...

時をこえた戦いを終え　彼は人知れず旅に出た
Done with the battles that exceeded time, he embarked on a secret journey
Done with the battles he once waged across time, he embarked on a journey. A secret and personal journey...

冒険の終わりで　別れた　かけかえのない　友を探す旅に……
A journey in search of an irreplaceable friend he had parted with at the end of the adventure……
A journey in search of a beloved and invaluable friend... A friend with whom he parted ways when he finally fulfilled his heroic destiny and took his place among legends...

With that in mind, Link could have simply told Zelda about his entire adventure/the AT. As for Kaepora Gaebora's final lines, he seems to be referring to the prophecy in general, which existed long before Link was born.

I thought Kaepora Gaebora said "the stories of a boy who could go back and forth through time" or something, and his words imply it's now known they're not just legend regardless. I'll concede the MM one though, I was thinking of the English text which says the legend echoes throughout Hyrule(though honestly, this is still backed up by Twilight Princess).

I mean, the idea that Link would become a legend to the tribes of Hyrule 100 or more years later just because the Royal Family believed him seems a bit much. I think he had to be more known among the common folk for that. You can't exactly make a royal decree that some guy in a skirt is such a hero that he should be looked at in reverence from then on. He has to be more..."visible".

If you have the time, would you mind sharing some of your other reasons?

I just generally never got the sense everything from Link getting the Ocarina to going through the Spirit Temple and the Well and Ganondorf taking over happened in one day, it doesn't make sense with all the crap that happened for that to be one day, and they even go out of their way to show it going from daytime to night time or vice versa as you exit the Temple through the way that has the gauntlets.

Yes, that and his angry vow of vengeance.

Not sure I get the relevance in that to what he'd do here. If there's any parallelism in the ending to the child timeline I'd say it was him getting a second wind when he thought he was finished and going into a beastly rage at the Arbiter's Ground, just as he did in his castle.

[Average Gamer]

Because he is putting it down, just like when he wakes up in the Child Timeline; this isn't difficult, it's the same mechanic we've been dealing with the whole game.

To me, the Master Sword method of time travel always looked like Link was sent back to a point before he ever drew the blade. I never got the impression that he placed it in the pedestal as an adult, became a kid, then placed the blade in the pedestal again.

It doesn't matter. Child Zelda saw Adult Timeline. The timeline is changed from what she saw.

Zelda's only confirmed vision of the future in OoT was pretty vague, so I don't see why she'd see the timeline split.

As for why she would return to the Castle despite the danger, the vision said so.

But what would prevent Ganon's minions from ambushing Zelda in that instance?

Maybe it did. The Triforce mark was glowing in the ending and Link didn't react.

True, but considering the time they would have spent together, one would think that the ToW would be noticed.

I don't think so. A "short time later" usually refers to less than, say, a month but more than the same day I think.

However, the sentence after that one seems to be framing both events within the same day, and the Japanese text seems to imply that the castle fell on the same day more than the English text.

七年前の　あの日… ガノンドロフの　突然の襲撃… ハイラル城は　まもなく　陥落した。
On that day seven years ago… When Ganondorf suddenly attacked… Hyrule Castle fell after a short time.
On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.

ガノンドロフの　目的は 聖地へのカギの一つ…　王家の秘宝 時のオカリナだったのだ。
Ganondorf’s aim was one of the keys to the Sacred Land… the secret treasure of the Royal Family, the Ocarina of Time.
Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family...The Ocarina of Time!

Because they didn't fight to the last man or hold out for a while. They literally surrendered, and did so shortly after Zelda went missing.

The Japanese text actually says that the castle fell, not that the guards surrendered.

I thought Kaepora Gaebora said "the stories of a boy who could go back and forth through time" or something, and his words imply it's now known they're not just legend regardless.

For the record, this is what Kaepora Gaebora says:

ふたつの時代を　行き来する少年のことを、この私ですら　伝説だとばかり　思っとったよ。
Even I thought that thing about a boy who plies between two epochs was merely a legend!
Even I thought that the tales of a boy who could travel back and forth through time was merely a legend.

Since Sheik's comments indicate that a prophecy about the Hero of Time existed, I always thought that Kaepora was just referring to the legend. At best his words only suggested that he believed in the legend at that point, not that anyone else did.

I mean, the idea that Link would become a legend to the tribes of Hyrule 100 or more years later just because the Royal Family believed him seems a bit much.

My stance is that, after freely living out his childhood, OoT/MM Link became a minor hero without a title once Ganon had been dealt with.

I just generally never got the sense everything from Link getting the Ocarina to going through the Spirit Temple and the Well and Ganondorf taking over happened in one day,

I admit that it does seem rather cramped, but the story is ultimately frozen on that day.

and they even go out of their way to show it going from daytime to night time or vice versa as you exit the Temple through the way that has the gauntlets.

Could you please provide a video that demonstrates this?

Not sure I get the relevance in that to what he'd do here.

When you said the following:

and The Wind Waker mentions he conquered Hyrule with an army as opposed to Falcon Punching the castle and it's king the day he got the Triforce.

I thought that you were referring to Ganon's second invasion of Hyrule in TWW's backstory. That's why I said that, considering his rage in OoT's ending, Ganon may have simply formed an army for overkill after breaking free from the Sacred Realm. Sorry if I misread your post. If you were referring to this line:

悪しき力により王国は、闇につつまれ
Through evil forces, he covered the kingdom with darkness.
With its strength at his command, he spread darkness across the kingdom.

I always figured that the evil forces in question were either Ganon's own powers or minions he sent to various places after already conquering the land (ex: Moblins in the Lost Woods).

Edited by Average Gamer, 04 November 2010 - 08:34 PM.

[Aiden]

Because this discussion is pretty long, I don't know if this has been brought up, but if Link was sent to the moment he first picked up the Master Sword, why would Zelda teach him the Song of Time in the MM flashback? I mean, hypothetically, he would come up to her, and she would say something along the lines of, "Oh, did you get the Ocarina of Time? So you already got my voice mail about the Song of Time? Okay, then there is no need for me to ever teach it to you again." If he had been sent back before he ever got the Ocarina of Time, however, she never would have even left the message with the Ocarina to begin with, and she wouldn't assume that he already learned it, thus when she gives the Ocarina to him before he leaves on his quest to find Navi, she would teach it to him for what she would think would be the first time. Plus, if Zelda didn't send Link back to a time before she even got him involved in anything and didn't give him all of his lost time back, she would be a lying bitch, and we just can't have that, now can we?

Edited by Aiden, 05 November 2010 - 12:04 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

To me, the Master Sword method of time travel always looked like Link was sent back to a point before he ever drew the blade. I never got the impression that he placed it in the pedestal as an adult, became a kid, then placed the blade in the pedestal again.

The method of time travel is that Link goes into a sleep, and to go back his spirit travels backwards, but not his body. Therefore, Link can only go as far back as when he first lifted the Master Sword, and if he makes multiple trips back, then he is ever so slightly spending more Time doing things in the Child Era, as if he goes back before he does something, like getting the Lens of Truth, then he would end up undoing it. He's travelling more or less in a straight line at all times, save for possibly the ending, when the Split happens.

Zelda's only confirmed vision of the future in OoT was pretty vague, so I don't see why she'd see the timeline split.

oh shit teh darkness is comin' hey wait, everything's gonna be fine? What?

But what would prevent Ganon's minions from ambushing Zelda in that instance?

She dodged them using precognitive foresight.

True, but considering the time they would have spent together, one would think that the ToW would be noticed.

Maybe, maybe not. It never went off when Sheik and Link were together, so wtf.

but if Link was sent to the moment he first picked up the Master Sword, why would Zelda teach him the Song of Time in the MM flashback?

Because players of MM might not have played OOT yet.

Plus, if Zelda didn't send Link back to a time before she even got him involved in anything and didn't give him all of his lost time back, she would be a lying bitch, and we just can't have that, now can we?

Not really; the time he lost was the seven years he was in a fucking coma. I don't think his...what, two days collecting the Spiritual Stones is of any great importance.

Not to mention it would create a paradox that would fucking SUNDER the space time continuum in a way a timeline split couldn't resolve, and it'd also totally dick over the Kokiri, Gorons, and Zoras.

[Average Gamer]

The method of time travel is that Link goes into a sleep, and to go back his spirit travels backwards, but not his body. Therefore, Link can only go as far back as when he first lifted the Master Sword, and if he makes multiple trips back, then he is ever so slightly spending more Time doing things in the Child Era,

Do you have a quote that specifically says the time travel has that limitation by any chance? It always looked like Link was frozen in place until he was on-screen again, and nothing ever suggested to me that Link was quickly moving then freezing up again in the few seconds he had off-screen.

oh shit teh darkness is comin' hey wait, everything's gonna be fine? What?

Didn't Zelda's initial prophecy not factor in the Triforce at all? It seems to have been more of a general warning rather than anything specific.

She dodged them using precognitive foresight.

I doubt that Zelda could pull off something like that, seeing as how her vision couldn't even show her that Ganon would threaten Hyrule. She was ultimately forced to come to her own conclusions.

Maybe, maybe not. It never went off when Sheik and Link were together, so wtf.

True, but the meetings between Link and Sheik tended to be brief, as opposed to them hanging out together for months.

[FDL]

However, the sentence after that one seems to be framing both events within the same day, and the Japanese text seems to imply that the castle fell on the same day more than the English text.

七年前の　あの日… ガノンドロフの　突然の襲撃… ハイラル城は　まもなく　陥落した。
On that day seven years ago… When Ganondorf suddenly attacked… Hyrule Castle fell after a short time.
On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.

ガノンドロフの　目的は 聖地へのカギの一つ…　王家の秘宝 時のオカリナだったのだ。
Ganondorf’s aim was one of the keys to the Sacred Land… the secret treasure of the Royal Family, the Ocarina of Time.
Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family...The Ocarina of Time!

No, I think the only thing that it says conclusively happened on "that day" was Ganondorf's actual attack. Not the fall itself.

The Japanese text actually says that the castle fell, not that the guards surrendered.

Ah, yes, I see that now. Still, the fact remains that the Triforces don't appear to usually grant the user all their power along with the fact that it was a "short time" after his initial attack that it fell leads me to believe it wasn't some epic fight to the last.

For the record, this is what Kaepora Gaebora says:

ふたつの時代を　行き来する少年のことを、この私ですら　伝説だとばかり　思っとったよ。
Even I thought that thing about a boy who plies between two epochs was merely a legend!
Even I thought that the tales of a boy who could travel back and forth through time was merely a legend.

Since Sheik's comments indicate that a prophecy about the Hero of Time existed, I always thought that Kaepora was just referring to the legend. At best his words only suggested that he believed in the legend at that point, not that anyone else did.

Keep in mind he also says it's been a long time for those with normal perceptions of time since the last time they spoke, which was just before the attack on Hyrule Castle. Which seems more conclusive than anything else about the time frame since Ganondorf attacked the castle. And Kaepora Gaebora doesn't appear to have foresight, so while I won't say it proves every average Joe knew of it, it does imply that Link's "battles through time" were known before the child timeline even really split off.

My stance is that, after freely living out his childhood, OoT/MM Link became a minor hero without a title once Ganon had been dealt with.

But Link didn't sacrifice the happiness of others for his childhood, which is why I think the Gorons, Zora, and Kokiri being "screwed over" as MPS put it seems very out of character. And Link clearly wasn't a "minor" hero. He's known as the legendary hero to Hyrule, even these many years later.

I admit that it does seem rather cramped, but the story is ultimately frozen on that day.

I'm still not convinced.

Could you please provide a video that demonstrates this?

As far as I'm aware, no such video exists where the goal is to demonstrate this. I thought it was common knowledge, I never use the Sun Song and yet it always happens to me like that. When I go in it's day and when I talk with KG it's night, or vice versa.

When you said the following:

and The Wind Waker mentions he conquered Hyrule with an army as opposed to Falcon Punching the castle and it's king the day he got the Triforce.

I thought that you were referring to Ganon's second invasion of Hyrule in TWW's backstory. That's why I said that, considering his rage in OoT's ending, Ganon may have simply formed an army for overkill after breaking free from the Sacred Realm. Sorry if I misread your post. If you were referring to this line:

悪しき力により王国は、闇につつまれ
Through evil forces, he covered the kingdom with darkness.
With its strength at his command, he spread darkness across the kingdom.

I always figured that the evil forces in question were either Ganon's own powers or minions he sent to various places after already conquering the land (ex: Moblins in the Lost Woods).

The latter is, I guess, possible. In regards to the former I asked Jumbie or jacen about and had it confirmed it uses the exact same wording that later part of the opening you thought I was talking about does. However, I don't see why the whole "steals the ToP and immediately becomes a maou/evil king" interpretation of OoT's lines is given such weight but then this darkness is disavowed as covering the land much later, though perhaps I'm mistaken on some hows and whys. That said, if you'd like we can stop discussing it so you can focus your attention on MPS' points instead of making massive posts to each of us in a tag team thing. Or at least maybe he'd want to argue some of the points I tried to make. Either way, I'm fine if you want to simply focus on this argument/discussion with MPS, as I don't like having to quote multiple people's posts either.

Edited by FDL, 06 November 2010 - 03:11 AM.

[Average Gamer]

No, I think the only thing that it says conclusively happened on "that day" was Ganondorf's actual attack. Not the fall itself.

She appears to be attributing both events to that one day though.

Ah, yes, I see that now. Still, the fact remains that the Triforces don't appear to usually grant the user all their power

By that do you mean that Ganon would have needed time to get used to the ToP?

Keep in mind he also says it's been a long time for those with normal perceptions of time since the last time they spoke, which was just before the attack on Hyrule Castle. Which seems more conclusive than anything else about the time frame since Ganondorf attacked the castle.

How so? It's close to 5 AM here, so I'm tired and might not be understanding that correctly.

And Kaepora Gaebora doesn't appear to have foresight, so while I won't say it proves every average Joe knew of it, it does imply that Link's "battles through time" were known before the child timeline even really split off.

Well, Kaepora's certainly not a normal owl, and a Gossip Stone states that he is a reincarnation of a sage (wise man sense, not one of the seven Sages). He also appears to have known that Link was the Hero of TIme or otherwise important, as he began following Link from the moment Link left the Kokiri Forest. To me, it seems like Kaepora has access to knowledge that others do not.

But Link didn't sacrifice the happiness of others for his childhood, which is why I think the Gorons, Zora, and Kokiri being "screwed over" as MPS put it seems very out of character.

The Deku Tree was already doomed, the Gorons and the Zora could have potentially handled the situations themselves, and avoiding Zelda's plan entirely would arguably be the lesser of two evils.

And Link clearly wasn't a "minor" hero. He's known as the legendary hero to Hyrule, even these many years later.

I consider him a minor hero when compared to how he was treated on the AT. On the CT, Link didn't have a specific title, and the praise and honor he received doesn't seem close to how he was treated on the AT.

As far as I'm aware, no such video exists where the goal is to demonstrate this. I thought it was common knowledge, I never use the Sun Song and yet it always happens to me like that. When I go in it's day and when I talk with KG it's night, or vice versa.

I guess I'll just check some playthroughs on Youtube then.

The latter is, I guess, possible. In regards to the former I asked Jumbie or jacen about and had it confirmed it uses the exact same wording that later part of the opening you thought I was talking about does.

I'm tired so I apologize in advance, but what exactly is "it"? The part of the TWW's intro that I posted? Also, what is the specific line later in that intro that matches up with "it?"

That said, if you'd like we can stop discussing it so you can focus your attention on MPS' points instead of making massive posts to each of us in a tag team thing.

That'd be good, as I've recently not had much time to post and I'm already dealing with discussions on ZU.

[MikePetersSucks]

Do you have a quote that specifically says the time travel has that limitation by any chance? It always looked like Link was frozen in place until he was on-screen again, and nothing ever suggested to me that Link was quickly moving then freezing up again in the few seconds he had off-screen.

Can't you people deduce things on your own by inference without needing fucking expository dialogue? Jesus fucking christ, this is part of why I don't translate.

Link goes to the future by going to sleep, then to go back, he does so mentally. You can deduce this through the simple fact that his age adjusts back to child and he has no time doubles.

Didn't Zelda's initial prophecy not factor in the Triforce at all? It seems to have been more of a general warning rather than anything specific.

A warning of bad stuff and danger. Oh hey wait, it was averted for some reason. That's weirddd....

I doubt that Zelda could pull off something like that, seeing as how her vision couldn't even show her that Ganon would threaten Hyrule. She was ultimately forced to come to her own conclusions.

Bear in mind this Zelda has a Triforce of Wisdom, even if she doesn't know it.

True, but the meetings between Link and Sheik tended to be brief, as opposed to them hanging out together for months.

So? In every other instance ever, the Triforce resonates instantly. If it's not going to go off, no amount of time will change that.

[FDL]

Alright, this'll be my last post. You don't have to respond, I just want to clarify my points.

She appears to be attributing both events to that one day though.

I think it can be read that way, I just think it's pretty ambiguous.

By that do you mean that Ganon would have needed time to get used to the ToP?

I believe so, yes.

How so? It's close to 5 AM here, so I'm tired and might not be understanding that correctly.

In the sense that, Impa's line pretty just omits a specific statement of "a few days later" or whatever, being more vague with "a short time later". But Kaepora Gaebora says it's been a long time, which means that it's not an objectively short amount of time. Had it been literally the same day, KG wouldn't be calling it a long time. Both are vague, but you pretty much never say "long time no see" when you've seen that person on the same day or the day before, whereas "a short time later" can mean several things.

Well, Kaepora's certainly not a normal owl, and a Gossip Stone states that he is a reincarnation of a sage (wise man sense, not one of the seven Sages). He also appears to have known that Link was the Hero of TIme or otherwise important, as he began following Link from the moment Link left the Kokiri Forest. To me, it seems like Kaepora has access to knowledge that others do not.

No doubt, but it doesn't seem to be to such a degree that he could just know. It sounds like he had some information to convince him, and he even knows specifically that Link goes between two eras, as opposed to the "shrouded by legend" HoT who everyone thought would just time travel into the pre-TWW era and save the day again.

The Deku Tree was already doomed, the Gorons and the Zora could have potentially handled the situations themselves, and avoiding Zelda's plan entirely would arguably be the lesser of two evils.

I would get into this but I figure since MPS brought it up to I don't need to parrot whatever he'd say.

I consider him a minor hero when compared to how he was treated on the AT. On the CT, Link didn't have a specific title, and the praise and honor he received doesn't seem close to how he was treated on the AT.

I actually disagree. "The legendary hero" is typically how they referred to him in the AT as well, and we actually see more indications of a country-wide reverence than we do in TWW. In TWW we never even get any indication that anyone but the Outset Islanders are fans.

I'm tired so I apologize in advance, but what exactly is "it"? The part of the TWW's intro that I posted? Also, what is the specific line later in that intro that matches up with "it?"

It was the part you posted, the specific line is the one you initially thought I was talking about that mentions him conquering the land with his forces after his return.

But like I said, just trying to clarify. No need to continue, I don't think it's necessary to overwork you.

[Showsni]

Impa's not talking about the time Ganondorf conquered Hyrule castle for good, she's merely talking about the events Link witnesses when she fled the castle with Zelda. At that time, don't forget, Ganondorf was an honoured guest of Hyrule castle, and his sole aim was to get the three spiritual stones and the Ocarina of Time so that he could get the Triforce. Being ensconced within the castle, it wouldn't be too hard for him to launch a surprise attack straight at the heart of the place (perhaps even taking the king hostage) and force them to surrender. But the fall of the castle here ultimately failed as Impa managed to spirit his sole objective, the ocarina, from his grasp. Holding the castle for any length of time was never his aim here; indeed, he chases off after Impa and Zelda and abandons the castle immediately, after which security is stepped up a lot. He must attack again in force once he's obtained the ToP, but we never hear any details of this second successful attack. After his failed first attack (for though he did force their surrender he failed to get the ocarina) the people would be ready for him; there's no way the second attack would have been as easy as the lightning raid of the first one. So there's no reason to suppose the castle isn't the safest place for Zelda, once Ganondorf has left it.