27 replies to this topic

[Person]

Considering that the timeline status of the Four Swords games is kind of in limbo, and that the Oracles games don't affect the timeline much wherever you put them, could all of these games conceivably happen on a single timeline? The Four Swords trilogy happens, and then the Oracles games happen sometime later when Twinrova tries to revive Ganon. The only problematic element I see is the Master Sword randomly showing up in Oracles. But it could either be a lesser sword in this universe or just non-canon like a lot of people like to think it is already.

[Pinecove]

The Capcom games were originally planned to be placed after ALttP, so saying they're on their own timeline is a bit silly to me.

[Person]

The Capcom games were originally planned to be placed after ALttP, so saying they're on their own timeline is a bit silly to me.

I'm not aware of that. Is there a quote on this?

[ganonlord6000]

The Capcom games were originally planned to be placed after ALttP, so saying they're on their own timeline is a bit silly to me.

I'm not aware of that. Is there a quote on this?

I think I mentioned something here about that when I saw an interview about pre release intent for the oracles on ZU. They seemed to have always been intended to be after ALTTP since they were originally going to be sequels to LOZ. That would place them after ALTTP by default at the time. As for your idea, Person, I don't have any problems with removing the FSS from the main timeline. The Capcom games just screw everything up.

[MikePetersSucks]

Putting them in their own timeline without a storyline reason for it is just defeatism. You might as well admit there's no timeline.

[Person]

Putting them in their own timeline without a storyline reason for it is just defeatism. You might as well admit there's no timeline.

I view the whole timeline debate as trying to figure out where the developers intend for all of the games to go. It's not a kind of battle where I have to defend my theories till the end. As it stands, the Capcom games have internal consistency with each other but don't seem to fit well with the main games. Consider the way that TP grafted on references to ALttP in its ending. Nothing like that has been done for the Capcom games except in other Capcom games, like TMC. Eiji Aonuma once said that the FS games were the oldest in the timeline, but now it looks like SS is taking their place, so they've kind of been exiled from the main continuity as it stands.

I'm not saying that there's no timeline at all. Plenty of series have alternate continuities.

[SOAP]

The Oracle games at least aren't a problem placing in the timeline. They can fit anywhere after ALttP or AoL even.

I'm a fan of placing seperate unrelated arcs in their own timeline though. The FS games could very well be their own timeline. FSA is the biggest offender, since they tossed so many storyline references from both the old and new games, none of which lead anywhere. However, the really controversial question is whether the rest of the 2D games should be on their own timeline as well. The connection between OoT and ALttP was the only bridge we had between the 3D and 2D games. Does that connection still exists?

Until further notice I see the games in three timelimes.

Classic:
OoT---ALttP-LA---(OoS/A)---LoZ/AoL---(or OoS/A)

Split:
(adult)OoT--TWW-PH---ST
[child]OoT-MM--TP

Four Swords:
TMC--FS-FSA

There could be spiritual connections between the three, such as the Master Sword in the forest at the end of TP where it should be found in ALttP or the Force Gems appearing in PH and ST, but until something stronger comes along to connect the three together, it's just less of a headache for me to assume that the timeline was rebooted after OoT was released and that the Four Sword arc is it's own continuity.

[ganonlord6000]

The Oracle games at least aren't a problem placing in the timeline. They can fit anywhere after ALttP or AoL even.

I'm a fan of placing seperate unrelated arcs in their own timeline though. The FS games could very well be their own timeline. FSA is the biggest offender, since they tossed so many storyline references from both the old and new games, none of which lead anywhere. However, the really controversial question is whether the rest of the 2D games should be on their own timeline as well. The connection between OoT and ALttP was the only bridge we had between the 3D and 2D games. Does that connection still exists?

Until further notice I see the games in three timelimes.

Classic:
OoT---ALttP-LA---(OoS/A)---LoZ/AoL---(or OoS/A)

Split:
(adult)OoT--TWW-PH---ST
[child]OoT-MM--TP

Four Swords:
TMC--FS-FSA

There could be spiritual connections between the three, such as the Master Sword in the forest at the end of TP where it should be found in ALttP or the Force Gems appearing in PH and ST, but until something stronger comes along to connect the three together, it's just less of a headache for me to assume that the timeline was rebooted after OoT was released and that the Four Sword arc is it's own continuity.

I don't have much of a problem with placing the games on separate continuities. The only one I have is with FSA and TP that have a lot of connections to ALTTP. If those are ignored, then separating the Nintendo games from the capcom games works out. The only thing I really don't agree with is separating the 2D games from the 3D games. I could care less about the oracles.

[Pinecove]

since they were originally going to be sequels to LOZ.

Er...no. They were going to be remakes of LoZ/AoL actually. Than they were changed to sequels to AlttP (but before LA) and we have barely any reason to asume the intent has since shifted.

As for the quote:

開

発初期に64DREAM紙上の紹介で神々のトライフォースと同一の時系列と紹介されている。また、ふしぎの木の実のエンディングにリンクが海へ出航するシーンが存在することから夢をみる島への繋がりを匂わせている。
"Back in the early stages of development, yes, we did say to 64DREAM that this game shared the same time line with ALttp. However in the OOX endings there's the scene of Link setting sail into the sea and since that scene exists, it gives light to the connection to Link's Awakening."

[Person]

But then we get into the old debate about how OoX Link and ALttP Link can't be the same because Link meets Zelda for the first time in OoX. We'd have to ignore that if we were to put the Oracle games between ALttP and LA.

Edited by Person, 05 October 2010 - 12:19 AM.

[ganonlord6000]

Er...no. They were going to be remakes of LoZ/AoL actually. Than theywere changed to sequels to AlttP (but before LA) and we have barely anyreason to asume the intent has since shifted.

Oh yes. That's right. I completely forgot about that. I was confusing the project ideas.

As for the quote:

開Quote

発初期に64DREAM紙上の紹介で神々のトライフォースと同一の時系列と紹介されている。また、ふしぎの木の実のエンディングにリンクが海へ出航するシーンが存在することから夢をみる島への繋がりを匂わせている。
"Back in the early stages of development, yes, we did say to 64DREAMthat this game shared the same time line with ALttp. However in the OOXendings there's the scene of Link setting sail into the sea and sincethat scene exists, it gives light to the connection to Link'sAwakening."

I don't remember seeing this. I guess I will move OOX to between ALTTP and LA (that would explain why Link looks a lot younger in GBA ALTTP).

*quickly edits signature*

Since this references to the ending in the final version, I guess we know where the oracles go, now.

How old is this, anyway? I'd like to know who's talking here as well.

But then we get into the old debate about how OoX Link and ALttP Linkcan't be the same because Link meets Zelda for the first time in OoX.We'd have to ignore that if we were to put the Oracle games betweenALttP and LA.

Ignoring a single line shouldn't be a problem. At least to me, anyway.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 05 October 2010 - 08:27 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Does "sequel" necessarily have to mean that the characters we see in Alttp are the same as the ones in OoX? To me it implies that sequel could just as well mean that it just follows Alttp in the timeline, unless there are other contextual lines in game that disprove this.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm gonna keep Oracles exactly where I put it, due to LTTP-Oracles-LA making a whole lot of nonsense, and not giving a shit about what developers think.

[Jarsh]

We also don't know if that Japanese quote is the atwiki's author's opinion, or if it's a direct quote from the 64DREAM magazine... it's just worded kind of weirdly. I wish there were some way we could get a translation with the rest of the article's context in mind.

[Crazy Penguin]

since they were originally going to be sequels to LOZ.

Er...no. They were going to be remakes of LoZ/AoL actually.

I don't know where this silly rumour started. There were originally going to be three games, one would be a remake of the original Zelda and the other two would be brand new. No Adventure of Link remake was ever mentioned. How would that even WORK?

As for the quote:

開

発初期に64DREAM紙上の紹介で神々のトライフォースと同一の時系列と紹介されている。また、ふしぎの木の実のエンディングにリンクが海へ出航するシーンが存在することから夢をみる島への繋がりを匂わせている。
"Back in the early stages of development, yes, we did say to 64DREAM that this game shared the same time line with ALttp. However in the OOX endings there's the scene of Link setting sail into the sea and since that scene exists, it gives light to the connection to Link's Awakening."

Where is this from? As others have said, context is important. And I question the validity of any translation that uses "OOX" as an abbreviation.

[Jarsh]

^
Comes from here. It's a compilation of timeline-relevant information from Japanese fans. It says "OOX" because it's simply a translation of what's on the page. But like I said, it's hard to say if that's the author saying what he thinks of the quote, or if it's the actual quote. I'm guessing the former, and we haven't seen the actual quote yet. Supposedly, in an issue of 64DREAM, before OoX's release, there was an interview that said OoX was intended to feature ALttP's Link, but it's hard to say if it's true now.

[Person]

It does sound a bit fishy to me, especially since we know that the development history of the games involved more connection to LoZ than ALttP. And we don't have the issue or even who is supposed to have said it. It seems to be a fan speculating on something rather than a proper quote.

[ganonlord6000]

It does sound a bit fishy to me, especially since we know that the development history of the games involved more connection to LoZ than ALttP. And we don't have the issue or even who is supposed to have said it. It seems to be a fan speculating on something rather than a proper quote.

Same here. I'm keeping them after AOL because they do fit best there, and it fits in with the original plan.

I don't know where this silly rumour started. There were originallygoing to be three games, one would be a remake of the original Zeldaand the other two would be brand new. No Adventure of Link remake wasever mentioned. How would that even WORK?

Blame GameTrailers. This makes it even more certain to me that the oracles follow AOL! I know the LOZ remake idea was dropped, so it isn't too hard to believe that the two new ones were modified to become the oracles. I know that after the remake idea was dropped, that there going to be three oracles instead of just two. Not that it matters.

[SOAP]

I don't have much of a problem with placing the games on separate continuities. The only one I have is with FSA and TP that have a lot of connections to ALTTP. If those are ignored, then separating the Nintendo games from the capcom games works out. The only thing I really don't agree with is separating the 2D games from the 3D games. I could care less about the oracles.

Those would be what I would consider "spiritual" connections. Where thematic or iconic allusions are made, but the actual plots don't neccessarily connect. At the end of TP, the Master Sword is deep in a forest with strikingly simmilarities with ALttP's depiction of the Master Sword in Lost Woods. However Ganon is dead at the end of TP and the wherabouts of the Triforce is up to debate. Link and Zelda may still havde their pieces but who knows what happened to Ganon's when he died. While there's nothing stopping Ganon from reincarnating or being ressurected and ALttP's backstory occuring sometime between TP and ALttP, TP itself doesn't really connect with ALttP story-wise. And that's what I tend focus on.

To me it just seems like OoT was originally suppose to retell the backstory of ALttP but now it seems that the 3D games have distanced themselves from the 2D games. Shoutouts are still made to the old games but story-wise, there has been no attempts to connect any of the 3D games with anything released before OoT. Fans just assume there's a connection there because OoT's original intent to be ALttP's prequel. And it may still be. But not in same continuity as TP and TWW.

Actually, I'm tempted so far as to place LoZ/AoL as it's own continiuty as well, since nothing connects with the rest of the series, not even ALttP. But Oracles helps fill in some of those gaps.

Edited by SOAP, 25 October 2010 - 07:41 AM.

[ShadyUltima]

If you play the oracle series all the way to the end, Capcom made it EXTREMELY clear where they go in the timeline. You beat up Ganon, and after the credits Link sails away. That's right. He SAILS AWAY.

Now... how many games start with Link sailing?

OOX - LA

And that's the only way it can work. Otherwise, you start arguing with the obviousness of the games. Also, Marin from LA looks identical to the Princess Zelda in the Oracle series. Of course, the entire graphic work of LA was heavily used for the oracles, but it just adds to the continuity.

[Snow]

If you play the oracle series all the way to the end, Capcom made it EXTREMELY clear where they go in the timeline. You beat up Ganon, and after the credits Link sails away. That's right. He SAILS AWAY.

Now... how many games start with Link sailing?

OOX - LA

And that's the only way it can work. Otherwise, you start arguing with the obviousness of the games. Also, Marin from LA looks identical to the Princess Zelda in the Oracle series. Of course, the entire graphic work of LA was heavily used for the oracles, but it just adds to the continuity.

That's a bit like calling OoX a sequel to MM because it starts with Link riding on a horse though, isn't it? Besides, OoX can't really happen between ALttP and LA anyway, since Link doesn't know Zelda in OoX. Also, OoX Link happens to be a lot younger than ALttP/LA Link, and unlike ALttP/LA Link, he has a Triforce mark on his hand.

[SOAP]

If you play the oracle series all the way to the end, Capcom made it EXTREMELY clear where they go in the timeline. You beat up Ganon, and after the credits Link sails away. That's right. He SAILS AWAY.

Now... how many games start with Link sailing?

OOX - LA

And that's the only way it can work. Otherwise, you start arguing with the obviousness of the games. Also, Marin from LA looks identical to the Princess Zelda in the Oracle series. Of course, the entire graphic work of LA was heavily used for the oracles, but it just adds to the continuity.

That's a bit like calling OoX a sequel to MM because it starts with Link riding on a horse though, isn't it? Besides, OoX can't really happen between ALttP and LA anyway, since Link doesn't know Zelda in OoX. Also, OoX Link happens to be a lot younger than ALttP/LA Link, and unlike ALttP/LA Link, he has a Triforce mark on his hand.

Heh! You'd think the fact that Link is sailing away FROM Hyrule in the beginning of LA would have put that arguement to rest.

[Nerushi]

Heh! You'd think the fact that Link is sailing away FROM Hyrule in the beginning of LA would have put that arguement to rest.

To be fair, he is sailing from Hyrule at the end of OoX. Or at least, I think that was implied seeing as Zelda was back at her Castle, then we see another shot at the castle, and then from the beach we can see the castle yet again.

Edited by Nerushi, 30 January 2011 - 08:45 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

ONLY ONE LINK IS ALLOWED TO USE A BOAT EVER, EVEN THOUGH THE BOATS DON'T LOOK THE SAME AT ALL.

Seriously, OOX can go after LOZ/AOL, too, as AT NO OTHER TIME is the Triforce kept by the Royal Family in it's separate triangle forms.

[Fin]

Hey, boats are expensive, man.

[MikePetersSucks]

No boat stands up to the axiom which supports the stability and existence of the Zelda Multiverse.

[ganonlord6000]

ONLY ONE LINK IS ALLOWED TO USE A BOAT EVER, EVEN THOUGH THE BOATS DON'T LOOK THE SAME AT ALL.

Seriously, OOX can go after LOZ/AOL, too, as AT NO OTHER TIME is the Triforce kept by the Royal Family in it's separate triangle forms.

right on, MPS. I've even posted an idea on a few sites recently about the FSS occurring after the oracles, or at least after LOZ/AOL.

[Jarsh]

Now that I have an actual decent translation of that thing from atwiki, it's just the author of that wiki page claiming that an issue of 64DREAM stated that, in its early development, OoX was meant to link with ALttP. I doubt he's lying since everything else in the article is true.

Anyway, "early development" is the key phrase. Things like the boat can easily be leftover intent from those days. It's not much of a reach since we know Flagship was indecisive about other developments of the game (like whether it should have been three games, or if it should have been remakes and sequels, of and to, LoZ and AoL.)

Another thing, about the FS Flagship games, FSA seems to try and link strongly to the other main, Nintendo EAD-developed games, and FSA also links to FS and TMC, so I see no reason to not include simply because of that. I'd take the intentions Flagship invented with a grain of salt, but they should still be in the main timeline.

Edited by Jarsh, 31 January 2011 - 09:56 PM.

[ganonlord6000]

Now that I have an actual decent translation of that thing from atwiki, it's just the author of that wiki page claiming that an issue of 64DREAM stated that, in its early development, OoX was meant to link with ALttP. I doubt he's lying since everything else in the article is true.

Anyway, "early development" is the key phrase. Things like the boat can easily be leftover intent from those days. It's not much of a reach since we know Flagship was indecisive about other developments of the game (like whether it should have been three games, or if it should have been remakes and sequels, of and to, LoZ and AoL.)

Another thing, about the FS Flagship games, FSA seems to try and link strongly to the other main, Nintendo EAD-developed games, and FSA also links to FS and TMC, so I see no reason to not include simply because of that. I'd take the intentions Flagship invented with a grain of salt, but they should still be in the main timeline.

So the boat in the oracles was basically a leftover from when they were supposed to follow up ALTTP? Knowing the way the development of those two was, I suspected something like this a while ago. Instead of removing the Capcom games, I just shove them at the end of the CT.

[Jarsh]

So the boat in the oracles was basically a leftover from when they were supposed to follow up ALTTP? Knowing the way the development of those two was, I suspected something like this a while ago. Instead of removing the Capcom games, I just shove them at the end of the CT.

By no means would I pass it off as a proven fact, but I think it's quite likely that's the case.