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Phantom Hourglass's world


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#1 ganonlord6000

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 10:09 PM

This is one of the theories I was refering to yesterday. One of the ones I am making to stir things up a little here on LA so it might be as active as the other sites. I should note that this one is just for fun (mostly because I'm bored right now), and I am not taking much of this seriously.

What is the world in PH exactly? It seems to be a flooded version of Termina, as we do see a few people who are very similar to the people of the great sea (like that Link imitator), but it also has many Hylian symbols like the Triforce and the symbols of the goddesses. Could it just be an alternate dimention, or a part of the Great Sea very far from where Hyrule once was?

I would like to see a good discussion here so we can have a bit of fun here.

#2 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 01:51 PM

I proposed in the Japanese Translation thread, with some lingual evidence, that the area of Phantom Hourlgass is only another "world" in the sense that it's a different spiritual territory under the Ocean King's reign. It's still physically accessible to Link and party at all times, as Tetra's ship was able to sail into it without any magical portals, and are apparently able to go back whenever they want to get people to move to their New Hyrule.

That, and to say it's an alternate dimension is a bit of a fucking asspull.

#3 Pinecove

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 04:23 PM

^For once we seem to agree.

#4 Snow

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:09 PM

Don't the pirates claim that Link and Tetra only were gone for about 10 minutes in the credits, though? Time is apparently flowing differently in PH's world.

#5 Pinecove

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Posted 15 September 2010 - 05:22 PM

It could be that the Ocean King sent them back in time.
There's actually a really good article on ZI about this actually (that's assuming that any of you will actually read it.)

http://www.zeldainfo...ocean-king.html

#6 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:23 PM

^For once we seem to agree.


We agree much more often than that. <3

Don't the pirates claim that Link and Tetra only were gone for about 10 minutes in the credits, though? Time is apparently flowing differently in PH's world.


Time travel. The fact that Linebeck is in the ending demonstrates there was no meaningful dimensional shift.

#7 Snow

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 01:50 PM

Time travel. The fact that Linebeck is in the ending demonstrates there was no meaningful dimensional shift.


Ah. That works.

#8 ZeldaZealot

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:28 AM

Hmm... ZZ would have to think of it as something similar to 'enclosed space' where the flow of time is different inside. Something like... the Twilight Realm, just add in that every day spent inside is only a minute on Hyrule.

#9 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:06 PM

The Twilight Realm doesn't have a different flow of time from Hyrule.

#10 ganonlord6000

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 05:07 PM


Time travel. The fact that Linebeck is in the ending demonstrates there was no meaningful dimensional shift.


Ah. That works.


That can work. And didn't I say not to take this thread seriously? Lets have a much fun as we want with this.

#11 Average Gamer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:48 PM

I proposed in the Japanese Translation thread, with some lingual evidence, that the area of Phantom Hourlgass is only another "world" in the sense that it's a different spiritual territory under the Ocean King's reign. It's still physically accessible to Link and party at all times, as Tetra's ship was able to sail into it without any magical portals, and are apparently able to go back whenever they want to get people to move to their New Hyrule.


However, didn't the Ocean King specifically state that there was a gateway between his realm and the rest of the world? The gateway also appears to be open when it is incredibly foggy, like in PH's intro and the ending.

時の砂も もどり 海は再びおだやかになろう これで おぬしらの世界の海でも 幽霊船さわぎはなくなるじゃろう
The Sand of Time has returned and the sea has once again become calm. Now the Ghost Ship won’t be disturbing even your world’s sea.

The Sand of Hours is returned and peace reigns. The Ghost Ship will no longer haunt your world.


アタシたちの世界? じゃあ 今いる この世界は なんなのさ? ここは いったい・・・
Our world? Then, what is the world we’re in now? Where exactly…

Our world? So what is the world that we are in now? What is this place...


そろそろ もとの世界に帰るときが きたようだ・・・
The time for you to return to your original world is nearing…

The time for you to return to your world is near...


あなた方の世界との扉が 再び開こうとしています
The door to your world will open once again.

The door to your world is about to open.


ボクたちは この世界の住人 海王さまのもとに 帰るよ!
We’re residents of this world. We must return to being under the supervision of the Ocean King!

We are inhabitants of this world. We must return to the world of the Ocean King!


It seems that the Ocean King's Realm is separate to some degree.

#12 Pinecove

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 09:34 PM

We agree much more often than that. <3


D'awww you do love me. :3

It seems that the Ocean King's Realm is separate to some degree.


It could just be that the "world" was only real to those under the power of the ocean king just like the island in LA was only real to those under the power of the Wind Fish (sleeping).

#13 Average Gamer

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 10:50 PM

It could just be that the "world" was only real to those under the power of the ocean king just like the island in LA was only real to those under the power of the Wind Fish (sleeping).


I don't see how that could work out. The Ocean King's Realm still existed after Bellum essentially defeated the Ocean King, and Koholint and its population in LA didn't actually exist to begin with.

#14 Pinecove

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:57 AM

Your point? Koholint island existed BEFORE the nightmares took over the island. Hell, the people on Koholint don't even have a reference of what time is:
"You're asking me when we started to live on this island? What do you mean by 'when?' Whoa! The concept just makes my head hurt!" ~Little boy on Koholint

As for the population not existing in the first place, neither did Marin. Just as Marin escaped the dream of the Wind Fish, Linebeck escaped the influence of the Ocean King. Alternatively, Linebeck could have been previously trapped in the realm/world/mind of the ocean king from an earlier encounter with him.

As for the "Ghost ship brought them to another dimension" thing that doesn't work as Link never even made it ON to the ghost ship.

Edited by Pinecove, 18 September 2010 - 10:57 AM.


#15 ganonlord6000

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 11:33 AM

Your point? Koholint island existed BEFORE the nightmares took over the island. Hell, the people on Koholint don't even have a reference of what time is:
"You're asking me when we started to live on this island? What do you mean by 'when?' Whoa! The concept just makes my head hurt!" ~Little boy on Koholint

As for the population not existing in the first place, neither did Marin. Just as Marin escaped the dream of the Wind Fish, Linebeck escaped the influence of the Ocean King. Alternatively, Linebeck could have been previously trapped in the realm/world/mind of the ocean king from an earlier encounter with him.

As for the "Ghost ship brought them to another dimension" thing that doesn't work as Link never even made it ON to the ghost ship.


LA's world can't even compare to the world of PH as we know LA is a dream based on the memories of ALTTP Link (at least when he made it there. Nintendo needs to make another handheld Zelda of the same caliber as LA). PH seems to be some something like termina, or it could've been part of Hyrule at one point since the symbols of the goddesses in TWW are all over the place, as well as the trifroce symbol. All we know is that it is another world.. I remember Linebeck saying something about being from a diferent world than Jolene after you fight her for the last time, but I need to check the japanese version of that line.

* Peeks at the translations thread*

Didn't find it. Does anyone have the japanese tranlations of the first and last times you fight Jolene in PH? That can add a lot to this discussion.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 18 September 2010 - 11:49 AM.


#16 Pinecove

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:15 PM

So why can't PH be a conscious dream based on the memories/experiences of Link?

Creidit to Ben Lamoreux (Erimgard) for this.

Dreamlands: The Worlds of the Whales

Link felt all his hope vanish as the waves crashed over him underneath the dark and ominous sky. The water enveloped him, as he slipped into unconsciousness, leaving him to the mercy of the sea. When all seemed lost, a friendly voice beckoned him, and he awoke to find himself on the shores of an unknown island. No, I'm not talking the beginning of Phantom Hourglass and Mercay Island, but rather the opening moments of Link's Awakening on the island of Koholint.

These two stories resonate with similarities that defy coincidence, and the parallels certainly don't end with the opening sequences of the two games. In both games Link is drawn to a new realm by a disaster at sea, and remains there on a quest to save the guardian deity of the watery domain. While Link's Awakening depicts his quest to awaken the Wind Fish, Phantom Hourglass shows his heroic efforts in releasing the Ocean King from his dark imprisonment. Just how far do these parallels go, and how literal is the connection? The games themselves hold the clues.

Link's Awakening
In Link's Awakening, the island of Koholint, and all its inhabitants, are but a dream or illusion. As Link learns on his travels, a guardian deity known as the Wind Fish has the power to manifest his dreams into reality. The dreams of the Wind Fish are not only real to him, but become real to all those around him. The Wind Fish first dreams an egg around himself, a protective shell, and from there, dreams a mountain upon which the egg rests, and an island for the mountain to tower over. From his slumber, the Wind Fish produces all manner of living beings to inhabit the island; an entire civilization created from the subconscious thoughts of a deity.

This manifestation is so real, that when Link, an outsider who was not the product of the dreams of the Wind Fish, is lost at sea, the island is real, to an extent, to him as well. When Link lost consciousness after his boat was struck by lightning, he "awoke" on the shores of Koholint island. Though everything on the island was real to him, to the extent that he could actually be hurt or killed by the dangerous monsters that lurked on the island, as an outsider, Link was dreaming as well.

Throughout his adventures on the island, Link encountered many familiar faces. Marin, for example, heavily reminds Link of Princess Zelda. These familiar faces were not the product of the dreams of the Wind Fish, but rather Link's own mind. One inhabitant of the island actually informs Link that the monsters began appearing on the island around the same time of his arrival. The Wind Fish had not manifested these creatures upon its peaceful habitat, Link had, through the memories of his past wars against evil.

Yet strangely, the Moblins already had a well-established hideout on the island. If the Wind Fish had not dreamt the monsters into existence, then he certainly hadn't dreamt them a home. This too was the product of Link's dreams, showing that with a simple subconscious thought, this dream world could be affected even to the extent of creating buildings that appear to have stood for some time. The very history of the island was altered upon Link's entry. Though this may seem strange, the islanders wouldn't be alarmed by this apparent alteration of history, as time was a concept unheard of on Koholint.

"You're asking me when we started to live on this island? What do you mean by 'when?' Whoa! The concept just makes my head hurt!" ~Little boy on Koholint

While the thoughts of Link upon his entry into the island affect it, he cannot end the dream by himself. Only by awakening the Wind Fish will the dream end. As Link learns throughout his quest, it is only by awakening the Wind Fish that he can leave the island, but doing so will cause the island to cease to exist, along with all of its inhabitants.

Only one islander, Marin, seems interested in what's beyond the island.

"If I was a sea gull, I would fly as far as I could! I would fly to far away places and sing for many people! ...If I wish to the Wind Fish, I wonder if my dream will come true... ... ..." ~Marin

Link presses on in his quest to awaken the Wind Fish, though he knows it will mean the end for all the friends he has made on Koholint. Throughout his journey, Link is aided by an owl, who gives warnings to him of dangers ahead, encourages him, and tells him of the places he must travel. Near the end of the game, the mysterious owl reveals the source of his wisdom, and his reason for guiding Link.

"As part of the Wind Fish's spirit, I am the guardian of his dream world..." ~The Owl

It seems the Wind Fish literally split a piece of his soul off to set it apart as the guardian of the island, keeping watch over his creations. The owl reveals to Link that he trusted in Link from the start, believing he came to the island to rescue it.

The once peaceful sleep of the Wind Fish had become disturbed by the intrusion of dark forces known as the Nightmares. Upon entry into Koholint, they, presumably through some dark magic, made the Wind Fish's sleep eternal, and set out to conquer his dreams. Exactly who the Nightmares are, and how they entered the Wind Fish's dreams is unknown, but they too were influenced by the subconscious thoughts of Link. Manifesting themselves as previous foes, such as Aganhim and Ganon, they fought against Link. Upon being dealt the final blow, the Nightmares spoke their last before vanishing.

This island is going to disappear... Our world is going to disappear... Our world... Our... world... ~The Nightmares

The dream was so real to the Nightmares that they considered it to be a real world. A world which they intended to make their own. As long as they trapped the Wind Fish in an eternal sleep, the world was real.

With the Nightmares defeated, Link was ready to complete his task. The owl fades away into the background, presumably returning its spirit to the Wind Fish. The Wind Fish appears in front of Link, although apparently not awakened, and explains the truth of the island's existence being all part of his dream. Finally he beckons Link to join him in awakening.

"COME, Link ...LET US AWAKEN...TOGETHER!!" ~The Wind Fish

Echoing the fact that Link, too, had contributed to the dream, the Wind Fish was prepared to erase the world it had created to allow Link to return home. Link plays the eight instruments that he collected throughout the game, and the Wind Fish awakens as promised.

As the island vanished, as if it had never been there, Link finds himself back on the wreckage of his destroyed ship, as though he had never left. Just as a very dazed Link is likely questioning where the line between reality and imagination ends, a smile comes to his face as he sees the Wind Fish fly off in the distance, letting him know something was real.

To those talented enough to complete the game without losing any lives, an extended, true ending occurs. As Koholint disappears forever, along with all of its inhabitants, an image of Marin appears before Link's eyes. Just as she had wished to the Wind Fish, the image transforms into a seagull, and Marin flies away.

Phantom Hourglass
After washing up on the shores of Mercay Island, Link's efforts are initially just part of a quest to rescue Tetra, but he soon becomes much more involved in the World of the Ocean King. Learning of the Ocean King's imprisonment at the hands of the evil Bellum, Link endeavors to rescue not only Zelda, but the Ocean King as well.

Along his voyage, Link runs into many familiar faces, reminiscent of people he met during the events of The Wind Waker. Oshus is the spitting image of Orca, an old swordsman who trains Link The Wind Waker. Beedle, the sailing merchant, has a counterpart with the same name and occupation. There's even a parallel to Link himself. A self-proclaimed "Hero" rides around on a ship called the Prince of Red Lions, an obvious reference to Link and the King of Red Lions from Wind Waker.

Just as characters from Koholint such as Marin and Tarin were the products of Link's dreams and memories brought to life by the Wind Fish, it would seem that many of the inhabitants of the World of the Ocean King were also dreamt up by Link himself. Link's manifested memories may include not just people, but an entire culture.

While exploring the Northeastern Sea, Link discovers a lost civilization known as the Cobble Kingdom. On the Isle of Death in the Cobble Kingdom, Link finds the graves of six sages, reminiscent of the Six Sages of Hylian lore. Later, Link discovers the Isle of Ruins, also a part of the Cobble Kingdom. In order to access much of this island, he has to drain the water away, as most of the kingdom has become submerged, just as Hyrule Kingdom itself was lost beneath the depths of the sea. It's quite possible that this entire civilization was influenced by Link's mental picture of the submerged Hyrule which he visited in The Wind Waker.

Near the midpoint of the game Link boards the notorious Ghost Ship, and finds that Tetra has been turned to stone. While Link is still reeling from this shock, Oshus appears and reveals the truth to Link. When Bellum attacked the Ocean King and sealed him away, he had only one choice. Splitting his soul in half, he created a "clone" outside of the seal who could study his enemy and wait for the moment to strike. That clone was Oshus himself.

In Link's Awakening the Wind Fish was "sealed" inside of his dreams, preventing him from waking up and freeing himself from the evils of the Nightmares. Just as he split his soul to create the wise old owl to escape the seal and guide Link on his journeys, the Ocean King split his soul to escape his seal and guide Link in his fight against Bellum. After restoring Tetra and freeing her from her stony imprisonment, she makes a strange revelation.

"Since I got on that Ghost Ship, I've been dreaming. I know that you saved me, Link. I saw everything." ~Tetra

While on the Ghost Ship, the apparent connection point between the real world and the World of the Ocean King, Tetra was dreaming, and her dreams were that of Link's quest. Whether Tetra's dreams directly affected the World of the Ocean King or not is debatable, but there is a definite connection between the power of the subconscious mind and the happenings of Phantom Hourglass.

After Bellum's defeat, the life force he stole from the Ocean King is returned, and his true form is revealed. Just like the Wind Fish, this deity's true identity is that of a whale.

In the closing moments of Link's time in this strange world, the Ocean King agrees to grant Linebeck's wish for his ship to be restored, and tells Link he must return to his world through a door that is about to open. Link had been on the Ghost Ship earlier, and no such door back to his world had existed, so why was there now an apparent portal between the two worlds? The answer again lies in Link's Awakening.

Just as Link was able to enter Koholint through the sea, but couldn't leave without the power of the awakened Wind Fish, Link could enter the World of the Ocean King through the Ghost Ship, but he could not exit the realm without the power of the Ocean King; another indication that the world only existed through the Ocean King's influence.

Back in their own world again, it seems as though Link and Tetra were only gone ten minutes. While Tetra scoffs at the thought of it, the other pirates' suggestion that it was all just a dream seems the most likely solution to the strange events. While Tetra debates this with the other pirates, Link sees Linebeck sailing off in his newly restored ship. Just as Marin was granted her wish, and was able to escape the dream world of Koholint, Linebeck was also granted his wish, and was able to sail the seas outside of the Ocean King's influence.

Finally, the restored Ghost Ship, the only known link between the Ocean King's world and the real world, vanishes from sight as if it had never been there at all, much like a dream. Just as Koholint itself vanished, the only entry point to the World of the Ocean King disappeared without a trace. The Ocean King himself was a real deity who existed in the real world, but his world, the realm in which Phantom Hourglass occurs, was only real to those under the influence of the Ocean King's power and the dreams of Link and Tetra. Like Koholint, it was a dream world.


Also Jolene says nothing of the sort.
We don't even HAVE the Japanese translations of that part of PH.
http://forums.zeldainformer.com/topic/5425-japanese-re-translations/page__st__20

#17 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 03:57 PM

It seems that the Ocean King's Realm is separate to some degree.


You should really check the original thread. There's some vague terminology and contextual indicators that I went into, and I really don't care to repeat myself. That, and Phantom Hourglass seems to use the "Kekkai" concept as a general game theme.

It could just be that the "world" was only real to those under the power of the ocean king just like the island in LA was only real to those under the power of the Wind Fish (sleeping).


Except everyone was real, so...stupid.

So why can't PH be a conscious dream based on the memories/experiences of Link?


Because as a concept it has no valid means of explaining anything about the game and only raises further questions, making it a VERY BAD theory.

Your point? Koholint island existed BEFORE the nightmares took over the island. Hell, the people on Koholint don't even have a reference of what time is:
"You're asking me when we started to live on this island? What do you mean by 'when?' Whoa! The concept just makes my head hurt!" ~Little boy on Koholint


In my opinion, this is an indication that Koholint DIDN'T exist before Link's arrival.

"Since I got on that Ghost Ship, I've been dreaming. I know that you saved me, Link. I saw everything." ~Tetra

While on the Ghost Ship, the apparent connection point between the real world and the World of the Ocean King, Tetra was dreaming, and her dreams were that of Link's quest. Whether Tetra's dreams directly affected the World of the Ocean King or not is debatable, but there is a definite connection between the power of the subconscious mind and the happenings of Phantom Hourglass.


The debatability of everything else, aside, this sticks out as a sore thumb. Uh...Tetra, and the other Princess Zeldas, have this thing where they dream of Link and his adventures and basically see shit with psychic powers. By this logic, OOT is just a dream.

#18 Average Gamer

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 05:45 PM

[quote name='Pinecove' date='18 September 2010 - 08:57 AM' timestamp='1284825462' post='541237']
Your point? Koholint island existed BEFORE the nightmares took over the island. Hell, the people on Koholint don't even have a reference of what time is:
"You're asking me when we started to live on this island? What do you mean by 'when?' Whoa! The concept just makes my head hurt!" ~Little boy on Koholint[/quote]

I know that, but I really don't see how it changes anything. Koholint and its people were fake, and they didn't even have a concept of time. LA also makes it clear that Koholint and its people were merely dreamt up by the Wind Fish, whereas PH doesn't even remotely suggest that the realm is the product of a dream.

[quote name='Pinecove']As for the population not existing in the first place, neither did Marin. Just as Marin escaped the dream of the Wind Fish, Linebeck escaped the influence of the Ocean King.[/quote]

However, while Marin is eventually acknowledged to be a part of the dream, Linebeck is always treated as if he is an actual person. The Ocean King even states that his realm is not the world of Link, Tetra, and Linebeck, making it clear that they were all outsiders. Also, regarding the Marin thing, wasn't the reason behind her escape that she was a seagull dragged into the dream just like Link?

[quote name='Pinecove]As for the "Ghost ship brought them to another dimension" thing that doesn't work as Link never even made it ON to the ghost ship.[/quote]

Link wouldn't necessarily need to be on the ship, he would just have to drift through the fog.

As for that stuff posted by Erimgard, see MPS' comments.

[quote name='MikePetersSucks']You should really check the original thread. There's some vague terminology and contextual indicators that I went into, and I really don't care to repeat myself. That, and Phantom Hourglass seems to use the "Kekkai" concept as a general game theme.[/quote]

The original thread in question is the translations thread, right? A lot of discussions in there were split off into different threads, so I just want to make sure. Right now it seems to me that the Ocean King's Realm is at least partially separate, even if it's just the divine equivalent of an old man putting a fence up because he doesn't want kids in his yard.

I'll start searching for your post in the translations thread. Do you remember the page number by any chance?

Edited by Average Gamer, 18 September 2010 - 06:09 PM.


#19 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 07:47 PM

Also, regarding the Marin thing, wasn't the reason behind her escape that she was a seagull dragged into the dream just like Link?


A good hypothesis, but nothing at all substantiates it. Her ignorance of the outside world implies that she's a complete fabrication.

I'll start searching for your post in the translations thread. Do you remember the page number by any chance?


Not a clue, but I'm fairly positive it's in the earlier parts of it. I know it was one of my first comments on the thread (either that or the Zant Onmyoji thing).

#20 Pinecove

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 10:01 PM

Except everyone was real, so...stupid.


We have no idea if anyone was real to begin with however, or just created using the life force of the Ocean King to begin with.

Because as a concept it has no valid means of explaining anything about the game and only raises further questions, making it a VERY BAD theory.


Further questions such as?

In my opinion, this is an indication that Koholint DIDN'T exist before Link's arrival.


Why would the wind fish create a world just for Link? Koholint existed before his arrival.

The debatability of everything else, aside, this sticks out as a sore thumb. Uh...Tetra, and the other Princess Zeldas, have this thing where they dream of Link and his adventures and basically see shit with psychic powers. By this logic, OOT is just a dream.


Yeah, I agree that point is bad.

I know that, but I really don't see how it changes anything. Koholint and its people were fake, and they didn't even have a concept of time. LA also makes it clear that Koholint and its people were merely dreamt up by the Wind Fish, whereas PH doesn't even remotely suggest that the realm is the product of a dream.


I don't think you quite get what I'm implying here. I'm not stating that PH was a dream, I'm stating that the wind fish created a "world" out of his life forece which eventually became a reality (until the end of PH when he kicked everyone out, but that's irrelevant.)

However, while Marin is eventually acknowledged to be a part of the dream, Linebeck is always treated as if he is an actual person. The Ocean King even states that his realm is not the world of Link, Tetra, and Linebeck, making it clear that they were all outsiders. Also, regarding the Marin thing, wasn't the reason behind her escape that she was a seagull dragged into the dream just like Link?


Nope. Either she wasn't real to begin with and the image of her in the sky is Link remembering her, or she really did escape the dream. Regardless, it weas a stupid point as my theory doesn't rely on dreaming so much as it does remaining conscious.

And can anyone Link me to this "thread" we keep talking about?

#21 Average Gamer

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 01:41 AM

We have no idea if anyone was real to begin with however, or just created using the life force of the Ocean King to begin with.


Why would the Ocean King create a realm and population of his own? It'd be entirely pointless.

I don't think you quite get what I'm implying here. I'm not stating that PH was a dream, I'm stating that the wind fish created a "world" out of his life forece which eventually became a reality (until the end of PH when he kicked everyone out, but that's irrelevant.)


Again, why would the Ocean King create a realm and population of his own? It'd be entirely pointless. Also, why would he erase said world/"make it stop being a reality" in PH's ending?

Regardless, it weas a stupid point as my theory doesn't rely on dreaming so much as it does remaining conscious.


Please elaborate on the "being conscious" part of your theory.

And can anyone Link me to this "thread" we keep talking about?


It's the translations thread on this board.

Edited by Average Gamer, 19 September 2010 - 01:44 AM.


#22 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 02:26 PM

We have no idea if anyone was real to begin with however, or just created using the life force of the Ocean King to begin with.


We have absolutely zero reason to doubt their reality. You might as well say we have no idea if Zelda is a robot or not, so we can perfectly go ahead and speculate she is.

Further questions such as?


We know Linebeck is real, so why does he have a history here? If this world isn't real, why did the Ocean King create it? How the hell did the people of this ocean inhabit New Hyrule if they're part of a dream world? I can go on.

Why would the wind fish create a world just for Link? Koholint existed before his arrival.


It's a shared dream; a world created by both of them that neither of them created on purpose. It's not like the Wind Fish made Koholint for fun, or anything; it's a natural, uncontrolled result of his falling asleep, and since Link fell asleep with the Wind Fish, they co-created it.

I don't think you quite get what I'm implying here. I'm not stating that PH was a dream, I'm stating that the wind fish created a "world" out of his life forece which eventually became a reality (until the end of PH when he kicked everyone out, but that's irrelevant.)


This is even worse; you take away what little precedent and parallel the idea had with this, and ignore the fact that every other time "force" is messed with or used to create something, it's regarded as unnatural. That, and the Ocean King demonstrates he can't really afford losing his Life Force. It totally ruins his shit.

Face it, this "theory" is just making more and more shit up to try and justify an idea you created beforehand. It's exactly the sort of thing people got mad at Lexx for.

#23 Pinecove

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 04:13 PM

Befoe I answer to ANYTHING I want to just want to clarify something: MPS, do you believe that the entirety of events in PH was real and all it involved was time travel? Because I tried to argue this once but got told by average gamer that you said this was impossible. If it isn't and Average was just being....odd, for lack of a better word, then I'm completely ready to concede to this debate.

#24 Average Gamer

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:28 PM

Befoe I answer to ANYTHING I want to just want to clarify something: MPS, do you believe that the entirety of events in PH was real and all it involved was time travel? Because I tried to argue this once but got told by average gamer that you said this was impossible. If it isn't and Average was just being....odd, for lack of a better word, then I'm completely ready to concede to this debate.


I can't recall having any discussion about that, but if it did occur it was probably before MPS shared his two cents on the translations of PH's ending.

#25 ZeldaZealot

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 06:38 PM

The Twilight Realm doesn't have a different flow of time from Hyrule.


ZZ knows this. He is just thinks that the OK's world is something like the Twilight Realm, just with a different time-flow, but that is just ZZ's own personal opinion.

#26 ganonlord6000

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 08:40 PM


The Twilight Realm doesn't have a different flow of time from Hyrule.


ZZ knows this. He is just thinks that the OK's world is something like the Twilight Realm, just with a different time-flow, but that is just ZZ's own personal opinion.


That is similar to what I was thinking. That could work, as people from Hyrule aren't supposed to be in the Twilight Realm either.

#27 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:13 PM

Befoe I answer to ANYTHING I want to just want to clarify something: MPS, do you believe that the entirety of events in PH was real and all it involved was time travel? Because I tried to argue this once but got told by average gamer that you said this was impossible. If it isn't and Average was just being....odd, for lack of a better word, then I'm completely ready to concede to this debate.


I never said it was impossible, and yes, I do believe PH is absolutely reality. In fairness, the conversation regarding my thoughts on PH took a week-ish or so, so he might've said something based on a fragmented explanation before I got elaborating.

ZZ knows this. He is just thinks that the OK's world is something like the Twilight Realm, just with a different time-flow, but that is just ZZ's own personal opinion.


Well, I'll just have to disagree with that. Though mind if I ask why you keep speaking in third person like that?

#28 Showsni

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 01:23 PM

It's a shared dream; a world created by both of them that neither of them created on purpose. It's not like the Wind Fish made Koholint for fun, or anything; it's a natural, uncontrolled result of his falling asleep, and since Link fell asleep with the Wind Fish, they co-created it.


Not strictly true; Koholint was dreamed up by the Wind Fish before Link's arrival. It's not even clear that Link caused any additions to the dream; it could be purely the Wind Fish's dream, that Link just got trapped in.


#29 Pinecove

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 04:01 PM

I can't recall having any discussion about that, but if it did occur it was probably before MPS shared his two cents on the translations of PH's ending.


But this debate was around only two or three months ago. MPS shared his two cents in like....2009.

I never said it was impossible, and yes, I do believe PH is absolutely reality.


Alright, I concede.

Well, I'll just have to disagree with that. Though mind if I ask why you keep speaking in third person like that?


He spoke like that when he was young, so its just habit to him.

Not strictly true; Koholint was dreamed up by the Wind Fish before Link's arrival. It's not even clear that Link caused any additions to the dream; it could be purely the Wind Fish's dream, that Link just got trapped in.[/acronym]


Except it's pretty obvious that Link influenced the dream considering Marin, the moblins, et.

#30 ganonlord6000

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Posted 20 September 2010 - 04:15 PM


I can't recall having any discussion about that, but if it did occur it was probably before MPS shared his two cents on the translations of PH's ending.


But this debate was around only two or three months ago. MPS shared his two cents in like....2009.

I never said it was impossible, and yes, I do believe PH is absolutely reality.


Alright, I concede.

Well, I'll just have to disagree with that. Though mind if I ask why you keep speaking in third person like that?


He spoke like that when he was young, so its just habit to him.

Not strictly true; Koholint was dreamed up by the Wind Fish before Link's arrival. It's not even clear that Link caused any additions to the dream; it could be purely the Wind Fish's dream, that Link just got trapped in.[/acronym]


Except it's pretty obvious that Link influenced the dream considering Marin, the moblins, et.


LA's world was definitly influenced by Link's arrival. At least if the end boss counts. But PH's world is definitly a different story, as it is some form of reality. I only created this thread so we could have a good discussion here on LA. It would be nice if some of the rest of you can post some of your own theories here. I'm actually having a lot of fun with this.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 20 September 2010 - 04:15 PM.





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