53 replies to this topic

[davogones]

This idea occured to me while I was playing the dark Hyrule Castle in TMC. My evidence? Nothing solid, really, I just think it's a cool idea.

What if Ganon was impressed by Vaati in FSA and decided to join with him centuries later in ALttP? Given that Ganon's power was sealed away in the Dark World, he could still use Vaati's power in the Light World. He could also use Vaati's minions (the monsters in TMC).

Vaati is similar to Agahnim in the way he replaced the King and took over Hyrule Castle. The eye symbol is also a known Vaati symbol (look around Hyrule Castle and on transformed Vaati himself). Agahnim uses this same symbol.

[Zythe]

It's a really nice theory, I thought of it as well what with all the eyes ... but the out of the three mysterious wizards of Zelda (AoLBS wizard, Aghanim and Vaati) we know most of Vaati and least of the AoL one. The eye of Aghanim (don't kill me for saying this), is thought by some to have a relation to the Soul Edge (SCII). Impa, Ganon and several other people all have eyes as their symbol... I remember this image that MDTA did...

[Neon Z]

Nice theory, Davogones... but, what about Ganon's quote about Aghanin being his Bushin?

Impa, Ganon and several other people all have eyes as their symbol... I remember this image that MDTA did...

Ganon has an eye as his symbol? When did that appear? I do remember either Veran or Onox with an eye, but I don't remember Ganon.

Impa's and Sheik's symbol is the symbol of the Sheikan.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Nice theory, Davogones... but, what about Ganon's quote about Aghanin being his Bushin?


Ganon has an eye as his symbol? When did that appear? I do remember either Veran or Onox with an eye, but I don't remember Ganon.

Impa's and Sheik's symbol is the symbol of the Sheikan.

Ah, but don't you see? Veran and Onox were both Ganon's minions, so technically that eye could have been Ganon's symbol that they adopted. (Okay, I'm just grasping at straws here, but who cares?)

[Tekky]

Werent Onox and Veran Twinrova's minions? Kind of brings back the whole "Tribe of Evil" argument...

[davogones]

Nice theory, Davogones... but, what about Ganon's quote about Aghanin being his Bushin?

"Alter-ego" could be understood in several ways. People have always theorized about Agahnim being a completely different person who Ganon simply controlled. I'm saying that person could be Vaati. I'm thinking Ganon revived Vaati and turned him into his mind-slave to use his power. Or maybe Vaati joined willingly. Either way, Vaati/Agahnim acted as Ganon's representative, or alter-ego, in the Light World.

Werent Onox and Veran Twinrova's minions? Kind of brings back the whole "Tribe of Evil" argument...

Well the Twinrova sisters were Ganon's minions, so Onox and Veran are Ganon's minions by proxy. I think the "Tribe of Evil" during ALttP is just the followers of Ganon. By the same logic, Twinrova would be the top head of the "Tribe of Evil" in the Oracle games.

I'm leery about including Soul Caliber II in the canon, mainly because it didn't seem like a serious Zelda game. However, given Capcom's habit of recycling characters and even recycling the WW Link model, I have to admit that Soul Caliber II can no longer be dismissed on the grounds that it uses a generic Link and generic Zelda weapons. However, I will still only include it in the canon when a canon game makes a definite reference to it. Otherwise we might be going astray by including it, when perhaps the creators are just ignoring that game.

[FalconZero]

"Alter-ego" could be understood in several ways. People have always theorized about Agahnim being a completely different person who Ganon simply controlled. I'm saying that person could be Vaati. I'm thinking Ganon revived Vaati and turned him into his mind-slave to use his power. Or maybe Vaati joined willingly. Either way, Vaati/Agahnim acted as Ganon's representative, or alter-ego, in the Light World.

Good points. Well, in the final battle in Link to the Past, Ganon clearly revealed to Link that Agahnim was his alter-ego. So, that means he must have found some way to come back to the Light World in disguise to carry out his devious plans. But I have no idea how he managed to get back from the Dark World. Maybe by the omnipotent power of the Triforce?

[SOAP]

Astral Projection? Or maybe it's like in TWW. He could tranfer his body but not all his magic. Afganhim could be a powered-down Ganon.

[SOAP]

Now that I think about it, there's a possibility there might be more of an relationship between Vaati and the Fierce Deity. Behold the simmilar tastes in color, pale hair, and facial markings.

[MikePetersSucks]

Woah, this just made me think that maybe Vaati and Ganon were connected the WHOLE TIME!

Demon Ganon from back in teh day is slain by Hero of Men. His soul splits into two, one half is sealed in his Trident with his power, the other half, with his mortality and morality, is Minish Vaati. Vaati eventually returns to his true, darker self as he ages, and does his MC hijinks. He's sealed and whatnot, then when both Ganon and Vaati are free in FSA, and form an alliance. Perhaps the Four Sword, which they might have wanted to steal, could be used in reverse to make them the Great Demon Ganon once more. o.o they're both pwned, and Ganon uses Vaati's soul as a stepping stone for magic boosts and whatnot in the future, and when LTTP rolls around, forces Vaati to reincarnate and uses him as a pawn. They finally do merge, and LTTP link slays him once more, totally and finally. All future incarnations of Ganon are just golem-remakes (Oracles) or posers playing off the fear (LOZ). Of course, this is all speculation. >.>; this would make a seriously great fanfic. omg

[Neon Z]

"Alter-ego" could be understood in several ways. People have always theorized about Agahnim being a completely different person who Ganon simply controlled. I'm saying that person could be Vaati. I'm thinking Ganon revived Vaati and turned him into his mind-slave to use his power. Or maybe Vaati joined willingly. Either way, Vaati/Agahnim acted as Ganon's representative, or alter-ego, in the Light World.

But, wasn't the original word used in that sentence Shawdow Clone, or something like that? That was much more direct than just "alter-ego" and didn't leave much space for interpretation. Or was that translation proved to be wrong?

I'm leery about including Soul Caliber II in the canon, mainly because it didn't seem like a serious Zelda game. However, given Capcom's habit of recycling characters and even recycling the WW Link model, I have to admit that Soul Caliber II can no longer be dismissed on the grounds that it uses a generic Link and generic Zelda weapons.

Just a small comment. The weapons in SC2 are not generic, almost each one has a small description of its current placement or its background. IIRC, the only one with only a gameplay description is the Megaton Hammer.

[SOAP]

^ Actually, he returns to Hyrule at the end of Soul Calibur II when you play his side of the story. OoT Link is not missing. His tale is merely finished like NES Link and SNES Link. Or it's unfinished like TWW Link. Depending on how you see it.

[Alakhriveion]

Seems doubtful- Wind is Vaati's "thing," and if he were the same as Aganhim, who is at the very least closely associated with Ganon(dorf), He/They/It/whatever wouldn't have been so easily defeated by the Hero of Winds.

[Alakhriveion]

Although I'm not keen on the theory either I must point out that Ganondorf wiped the floor with the Hero of Winds

Eh? Then what was all that ass-whoppin' at the end of Wind Waker?

[Neon Z]

My biggest problem with Aghanin being a random person possessed by Ganon is the "Bushin" word which was said to be used in the Japanese version. Was that confirmed to be false or something?If it's true, there's no space for discussion. Aghanin is some sort of creation of Ganon, and is part of Ganon himself.

Yes, but in Beat 'Em Ups only one ending tends to count as having been the one that's actually occurred. Unfortunately you don't usually get to find out which ending was the "true" ending until the sequel comes out, but in the last two Sould Caliburs ([i[]Soul Blade[/i] and Soul Calibur it was, IIRC, first Sophitia and then Xianghua whose endings counted, with Maxi killing Astaroth and some other background stuff occuring.

Actually, almost every ending happened, only without the detroying Soul Edge/ getting Soul Edge part. Logically, that means that some endings(which were only about getting/destroying Soul Edge) didn't happen at all.

I personally find SCII particularly difficult to piece together from Destined Battles and backgroung provided, although it seems that it's Raphael who gets to Nightmare and the Soul Calibur is somehow corrupted and ends up subsumed by Inferno (how the hell this works I don't know. I assume we'll find out in SCIII).

The Soul Calibur was used to seal Inferno at the end of SC1... BUT it was lost to Inferno's void, and he eventually fused with it, corrupting the only weapon which can slay him. It's explained fairly clearly, IMO.

It's also Raphael who is Link's Destined opponent, so maybe this is significant--not sure. How does the story for the X-Box and PS2's unique fighters pan out?

The PS2 exclusive's story (Heihachi or something like that) was only a dream induced by cutting himself with part of the Soul Edge... and the X-Box one, Spawn, was fairly pointless. He was sent to the past to get the Soul Edge... but did not, just to anger his boss. X_X

[Zythe]

It would have been better, if Link's destined battle was Spawn or something. You could see him, fight him, kick his ass (or get your ass kicked) but never get to play as him...

I don't think Aghanim is Vaati. I don't think Vaati is Ganon. Ganon and Vaati are two seperate evils, of which I think Vaati is the greater, both wanted the Triforce though. Also, I think Aghanim may simply have modelled himself on Vaati or the Soul Edge may have had some connection to the Trident of Evil. BTW, the Hero of Men may never have fought any demon Vaati, there's nothing to suggest he did, I think there were just lots and lots of monsters about.

Vaati is also a minish, who looks freakishly similar in human form to Veran. (I just know there's going to be some "Veran and Vaati have a baby name it Aghanim" or "Aghanim and Veran have a baby and name it Vaati" or "Veran and AoL wizard name their baby Vaati (there are already some that have Aghanim here)" FanFiction out there).

Irrelevant: Also, after you beat TMC and save, Link gets a little Triforce icon on the main menu. At the beginning, the golden light given to the Hero of Men is a triange. And the light force near the end of the game with the Zeldas, is shown to be a gold triangle. I think this proves that the Triforce is the light force, or the culmination of the Forces of Wisdom, Power and Courage.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Good points. Well, in the final battle in Link to the Past, Ganon clearly revealed to Link that Agahnim was his alter-ego. So, that means he must have found some way to come back to the Light World in disguise to carry out his devious plans. But I have no idea how he managed to get back from the Dark World. Maybe by the omnipotent power of the Triforce?

Really? When I first played that game in 1990-something, I thought that Ganon was clearly stating that Agahnim was his Dark World counterpart. Think about it. If everything in the Dark World has its own mirror version, then so must people.

[coinilius]

But you never see any people who are Dark World versions of Light World inhabitants, just people who have travelled from the Light World and gotten stuck in the Dark World.

[FalconZero]

If everything in the Dark World has its own mirror version, then so must people.

Everything? If there are mirror versions of anything in the dark world, how come there isn't a mirror of Link or Blind the Thief when they are both in the Dark World? It's objects that appear simultaneously in the two worlds, not people.

I agree with Coinilius. Hylians entered the Golden Land in search of the Golden Power but they didn't know how to get back. Link was lucky enough to get that magic mirror from that old man in Death Mountain.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Everything? If there are mirror versions of anything in the dark world, how come there isn't a mirror of Link or Blind the Thief when they are both in the Dark World? It's objects that appear simultaneously in the two worlds, not people.

I agree with Coinilius. Hylians entered the Golden Land in search of the Golden Power but they didn't know how to get back. Link was lucky enough to get that magic mirror from that old man in Death Mountain.

Okay, you got me there. I was pulling straws out of thin air. It's just the way that Ganon says that Agahnim was his alter-ego made me think that they were opposites or something. Perhaps Agahnim was Ganon's human form, which kind of leads credence to a demon Ganon and a human Ganondorf.

[lord-of-shadow]

If you decide to include Soul Calibur 2 in the canon, then that means you're including the Spawn series and the Tekken series as well. Their connections to Soul Calibur 2 are just as strong, and if one is connected, then they all are.

Am I the only one who sees how utterly ridiculous that, and therefore anyone treating SC2 as canon, is?

And on top of that, look at his weapon selection... he has items from all throughout the series. All of this, plus the fact that he is a cameo fighter designed specifically to market a 3rd-party game, screams non-canon to me.

Might as well start including Super Mario RPG in the Zelda timeline. After all, Link can be seen in an inn there, so it must be part of it.

I find the fact that anyone would even consider including it in the canon very bewildering. In this quest for the timeline that wen've all been doing, it seems that some have forgotten the point, and that is to enjoy the timeline of the Zelda games. Instead you're so obsessed with finding some arbitrary truth that some of you actually consider treating a marketing stunt as canon. I almost pity you.

I remember this image that MDTA did...

Here:

Attached Files

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[Neon Z]

If you decide to include Soul Calibur 2 in the canon, then that means you're including the Spawn series and the Tekken series as well. Their connections to Soul Calibur 2 are just as strong, and if one is connected, then they all are.

Tekken's connection to Soul Calibur is stronger than any of the others... It's been known since SC1, when a charachter from Tekken appeared in SC, that they happen in the same universe.

And, anyway, both Tekken and Spawn happen in a far away future in a distant world from Hyrule. I don't see how they matter at all to Zelda's canon, even if one includes SC2 in the canon.

And on top of that, look at his weapon selection... he has items from all throughout the series. All of this, plus the fact that he is a cameo fighter designed specifically to market a 3rd-party game, screams non-canon to me.

For the last time, the EXTRA weapons are not canon, they're just a gameplay extra!

Everyone can't have the complete Soul Edge at the same time. No one has weapons stronger than the Soul Edge, nor weapons able to blow up the world(see the description of Necrid's Infernal Edge), nor weapons from old Namco arcade games... The only weapons which SC2 Link has, as told in his backstory, command list, and the weapon gallery are:

Master Sword
Hylian Shield
Bow
Boomerang
Bombs
Bug Catching Net
Armor's Sword & Shield
Running Boots [One of Link's attacks use the same animation of the attack with the running boots from Alttp + it's a two button attack, and every other two button attack with Link is a either a throw or an attack with one of his secondary weapons, like bombs]

Also, what do you mean by Cameo fighter? He has a backstory, ending, Destined battle... He has everything that the others have. He even has his own destined battle/theme music, something that the other console exclusive charachters(even the ones which appeared in all versions) lack. If he is a cameo, then everyone in that game is just a cameo...

Might as well start including Super Mario RPG in the Zelda timeline. After all, Link can be seen in an inn there, so it must be part of it.

There's a huge difference between Cameos and actually being part of the cast, with dialogue, story, ending...

Also, Soul Calibur 2 has been stated to be a Zelda game, Super Mario RPG has not.

I find the fact that anyone would even consider including it in the canon very bewildering. In this quest for the timeline that wen've all been doing, it seems that some have forgotten the point, and that is to enjoy the timeline of the Zelda games.

I don't see what you mean here. So, because some people think that Soul Calibur should be included in the canon, that means that no one has fun anymore with the timeline?

Hum... Don't you think that we may want to include it because we enjoy the timeline? If we didn't enjoy it, we wouldn't want extra material which just complicates things without adding anything important...

Instead you're so obsessed with finding some arbitrary truth that some of you actually consider treating a marketing stunt as canon. I almost pity you.

Every game is made to make money, so I guess that no Zelda is canon. After all, they're all just market stunts.

[lord-of-shadow]

For the last time, the EXTRA weapons are not canon, they're just a gameplay extra!

Why are they a just a gameplay extra? What makes them any less trustworthy then the fact that Link is there at all? If you're going to decide that one Zelda thing is in SC2 is canon, then you should at least do so consistently. Picking and choosing what is canon just to that it fits your desired timeline is bit on the low side.

Also, Soul Calibur 2 has been stated to be a Zelda game, Super Mario RPG has not.

Oh? Who said this, again? I would bet my life that Soul Calibur 2 is, in fact, a Soul Calibur game... not a Zelda one

And that Link is there simply to make the GC version seem more attractive, and that it was never intended ot play any role in any Zelda story.

I don't see what you mean here. So, because some people think that Soul Calibur should be included in the canon, that means that no one has fun anymore with the timeline?

That little part of my post shouldn't have been there... it's part of something I've thought and disapproved of for a long while, but it is more or less unrelated to Soul Calibur 2 canon debates. Offtopic, basically.