68 replies to this topic

[Hero of Winds]

Zythe said

OT: I got Minish Cap yesterday, I'm on level 4. It is so excellent.


Nayru, Din and Farore can give you charms like their items in OoT. I agree with Tri-enforcer, but another argument is that Nayru could take them through time.

Doubtful. The Oracles don't seem like the kind of people to do that. That's like saying Link would use his ocarina to travel through time and cheat death.

Either the Oracles just naturally live longer (because of their mystical blood), or the Oracles are just a line of descendants all sharing the same names (probably to secure their powers).

[TSA]

You mean the potions the Oracles give you? They temporarilty change Link's color.

[MikePetersSucks]

OOOooo! good point, Zythe! I never thought about that! Perhaps the Nayru takes the Oracles through time to help all the different Links (Well, the ones they meet) on their quests juuuuust enough so as not to interfere with destiny?

[martinDTanderson]

I got The Minish Cap on the day of UK release, and one of the Gallery characters of the minish, says that the minish like to hide rupees and other items in bushes, trees, and under rocks and pots.

I guess that explains why Link finds things randomly in games. And if what Zether says is acurate, this is most deffinatly the very first game in the series.

[Khallos]

I'm slightly dissapointed with the Minish, cap, no I haven't finished it though I have got pretty far, it seems slightly too short, compared to the length of a LttP, which I was hoping this game was going to at least equal. This game really needs a sequal or two... It actually lasts ages, getting all kinstones and figurines, but there's just not enough dungeons for my liking.

BTW does anyone know how to house the third "God", I've down Farore and Din, I just don't now how to shift those cats.

[Hero of Winds]

martinDTanderson said

I got The Minish Cap on the day of UK release, and one of the Gallery characters of the minish, says that the minish like to hide rupees and other items in bushes, trees, and under rocks and pots.

That settles it for me, then. The creation of the Armors; the hiding of rupees and items in pots, rocks, and grass; Link getting his cap for the first time; the allusion to the FS and Oracle games. All of this points to TMC being the first in the series.

[coinilius]

Hero of Winds said

Doubtful. The Oracles don't seem like the kind of people to do that. That's like saying Link would use his ocarina to travel through time and cheat death.

Either the Oracles just naturally live longer (because of their mystical blood), or the Oracles are just a line of descendants all sharing the same names (probably to secure their powers).

Actually, Nayru takes Queen Ambi on a journey through time if you play a linked game with Ages first and then Seasons, simply so that she can visit places and learn how to be a better Queen (or something like that). So Nayru has been shown to use her time travel powers for somewhat trivial purposes.

[MikePetersSucks]

OOOooo! good job, Coin! you just provided us with vital evidence. However, maybe Nayru's purposes aren't trivial. perhaps she did what she did in Oracles to both undo the evil she did when possessed, and to help time flowing naturally by making sure Ambi does her part in history (kinda like the Futurama paradox where Fry is his own grandpa.)

[martinDTanderson]

After Dungeon 4, you see the ghost of an Ancient Hylian King called Gustaf who guides you to the Royal Valley.

So that takes us up to 3 named kings of Hyrule now.

preMC
- Ancient King Gustaf Hyrule
MC
- King Daltus Hyrule
OoT
- NAMELESS (possibly Dauphnes)
WW
- King Dauphnes Nohansen Hyrule
AoL
- NAMELESS (non-canon King Harkinian Hyrule)
ALttP
- NAMELESS

[SOAP]

I doubt the oracles are traveling through time, even if Nayru has done it for trivial purposes before. There are two general rules for time travelers and that's no interaction with the loacals and to alwys keep a low profile. Usually in frantasy/sci-fi stories, recreational time traveling is only used for observation purposes. Anything more than that usually ends up with disasterous results. From what I've heard, not only do they interact with the people of that time period, they're pretty well-known too, almost celebrities even. Being the oracle of time traveling, I think Nayru would know better that. But hey! I haven't played the game, so what do I know?

What's wrong with the Oracles coming right after TMC? If there are multiple Ganons, and it seems to be more and more just the case, the one from th oracles is not the same one from OoT but rather the pig demon we see in TMC's intro.

[Hero of Winds]

Mario Jr said

I doubt the oracles are traveling through time, even if Nayru has done it for trivial purposes before. There are two general rules for time travelers and that's no interaction with the loacals and to alwys keep a low profile. Usually in frantasy/sci-fi stories, recreational time traveling is only used for observation purposes. Anything more than that usually ends up with disasterous results. From what I've heard, not only do they interact with the people of that time period, they're pretty well-known too, almost celebrities even. Being the oracle of time traveling, I think Nayru would know better that. But hey! I haven't played the game, so what do I know?

What's wrong with the Oracles coming right after TMC? If there are multiple Ganons, and it seems to be more and more just the case, the one from th oracles is not the same one from OoT but rather the pig demon we see in TMC's intro.

A) The demon from TMC's intro wasn't said to be Ganon. In fact, OoT implies that this (OoT) is the first appearance of Ganon.

B) Ganon is dead in Oracles.

C) The Triforce is in Hyrule Castle in Oracles, but the Triforce was never mentioned in TMC, was it?

[Zythe]

The light force ... I beleive is Triforce of Wisdom ... in the stained glass windows it is what you see as the power in the Zelda line, Vaati drained two thirds from Zelda (Potho's daughter, TMC) and I think the remaining third in combination with the mage's cap and Vaati's defeat was enough for Zelda to retrieve the rest.

[Hero of Winds]

My guess is that Zelda used the Hat of Wishing to return the rest of the Force back to her, where she subsequently used the Force to restore Hyrule to normal.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, I agree with most of this, and all, but how can we know for sure the Oracles didn't WANT to be well known? What if they had to do it in order to do their job(s)? Like, perhaps the the Hyrulian equilvelent of Jesus, Incarnations/Children/Annointed of the Goddesses to do their work when needed, and they have to use their charisma to help Hyrule band together to support Link? Perhaps they're the ones running around tying up loose ends? (making sure each Link wears green or something. GASP! Maybe they combined their power to cause the flood of TWW ) But I'm deviating from my main point. The Oracles are probably servants of the Goddesses, directly or indirectly doesn't matter. Also, I don't think this Force is the Triforce. That would mess up one of the facts we DO know. The Triforce's status throughout history. Perhaps the Force is the blessing of the goddesses, like the Minish gave Link the Force at first, marking him as the chosen one of the goddesses, and then he passed it to Zelda's line, giving her bloodline the power of prophecy and so forth? (Zelda has prophetic powers even without her triforce peice, as I recall from OOT)

[TSA]

SPOILER: Basic Story

Well, we know the basic premise. There was the legend of the Hero saving Hyrule with the Pikkoru or Minish Blade I guess. The story starts with Link taking his grandfather's sword (he's a smithie named Smith) to be presented to the winner of a martial arts contest; one mysterious person named Vaati. Anyway, when being presented with the sword, the legendary Minish Blade is also on display, placed inside a large chest, supposedly sealing monsters and the Golden Light bestowed upon the Hylians by the Minish known as Force. Vaati goes evil, and shatters the Minish Blade, releasing all of the monsters. But wait! The Force is nowehere to be found. He turns Zelda to stone and storms off. Link, who had been knowcked unconscious, wakes up and is then asked by Zelda's father I guess, King Dalton, to save Zelda. Apparently, only the Power of the Minish Sword can break the "Demon's Curse" that has afflicted her. But being that the sword was broken, it has to be fixed by the Minish themselves. The Minish, tiny little people who can only be seen by children, were thought only to be legends. Link, being a child, is sent off to find them.

- Just to clear some things up. The Picori is the term the Hylians use for the race from another realm, aka The Minish. However, the creatures themselves refer to themselves as "The Minish".

- The Light Force was a gift of The Minish to the race of men. The Minish call Hylians "humans" and call their world "the world of men". The Light Force gives ultimate magic power.

- Along with the Light Force, the Minish blessed the world of men with magic and gifts. They only want to see the humans happy, and the Minish become stronger and more powerful with the happiness of humanity (this could explain why they may die off later on in the series).

- The Minish in Hyrule are in fact, descendants of ancient minish who came through ages ago to the land of Hyrule.

BIGGER SPOILERS: Finner Points of Story

Along the way, Link enters the Chiroria Forest, and finds the Mysterious Hat, Ezro under attack from Oktoroks. Link saves him... or it... and finds out Ezro was also in fact finding a way to break the Demon's Curse.

- The Minish Village is in...The Minish Forest. Ezlo is the name of the "hat" that talks. He joins because he wants to break Vaati's curse on himself, and on Princess Zelda.

He decides to tag along, and eventually decides to hop onto Link's head because he can't walk fast.

- Same in English.

Ezro also seems to have the ability to shrink Link at certain "Entrances" to the Minish world. In the forest, they find a Minish settlemeent. Link learns that to fix the Minish Sword, they need to first take it to Melter in the Gongol mountains. Then the sword must be bestowed by the four Elements: Earth, Fire, Water Droplet, and Wind. So Link sets off on his more complicated adventure.

- The Portals were created a long time ago to allow Humans to travel into the Minish world.

SUPER SPOILERS: Plot Twist

After gaining the first two Elements, Link has the now restored Minish Sword (now called White Sword) and bestows it with the Elements of Fire and Earth in the Sacred Presinct or something inside the Castle that only Kids can see or something.

- It's called the Elemental Sanctuary/Shrine. It can only be seen by Link and Ezlo.

Sacred Area I think is the same kanji they used for the Sacred Meadow in OoT, and all the place where the Four Sword was in the FS games. Anyway, the Elements let you split into more copies of yourself, thus 2 elements make two Links.
After that, Link is confronted by Vaati outside. However, it turns out Vaati seems to know Vaati knows Ezro from somewhere (he calls him master) and even thanks him for something. After he leaves (not without summoning monsters) Ezro tells Link that in truth, both he and Vaati are Minish. Ezro had made something called the Hat of Wishes, that could, as its name would suggest, can grant wishes. Vaati had stolen it, and became his humanoid form as you see him. Vaati then casts the Demon's Curse on Ezro, and turns him into a hat. Unfortunately, due to some unexplained reason, Ezro says that the curs eon him can no longer be broken, but there is still a chance to save Zelda.

- Ezlo was creating some cap (forgot the name) to give to the race of men that would grant their wishes. Vaati was Ezlo's pupil, but he was deranged and snuck into Ezlo's shop and stole the cap for himself. He wished to become the most powerful sorcerer in the world in hopes of finding the Light Source from the "Sacred World" that only opens every 100 years - he says his plan is to win the tournament and claim it then. He then will rule the world (does this sound familiar). Ezlo explains the only thing that can stop him is the power of the Picori Blade, which when combined with all 4 elements, will become a Legendary Blade and it can break the curse on Zelda and himself.
Vaati, meanwhile, attacks the king, and disguises himself as him. He then commands the knights to search for the Force.

UBER SPOILERS OF DOOM: Ending

Well, Link collects the Elements, a new doorway opens in the Sacred Presinct. There Link finds the stained glass pictures in the opening, except with the added scene where you find out that the Princesses, (i.e. Zelda) hold the Force. Vaati finds out, and shoots Link unconscious again. When he wakes, the Castle is transformed to be evil like. Blah blah blag, last Temple, Link finds Vaati about to take the Force from Zelda. Vaati hadn't had time to completely extract the Force, but now has enough power to transform into his Monster/Demon self. Cue last boss fight(s).

- The Stained glass expands on the story of the intro, but it goes into depth about Zelda's bloodline. It explains that the first Zelda was granted the Light Force and it is bound to her bloodline. Vaati gains part of that force from Zelda, and begins to transform the world (starting with Hyrule Castle) into an "Evil Realm" (this MAY explain how the Dark World could exist before OoT).

When Link finally defeats Vaati and saves Zelda, the Hat of Wishes is all that is left of Vaati. Ezro, mourning the loss of the Castle and people, is suddenly returned to his normal self. He then tells Zelda that she can fix everything because the Force is in her (heh heh) and the Wishing Hat would amplify her power.Hurray for happy endings. Everything is all good, and the Wishing hat is destroyed. The doorway to the Minish World that opens every 100 years is closing, so Ezro shrinks back to his normal size, and goes home. But before that, he gives Link a hat so as to remember him or some junk.

- He talks about Courage when he gives Link the green hat...and a Triforce appears in your inventory on the main menu of the File Select Screen - one piece above your sword.

At the very end of the credits there is some more lines about this being Link's first adventure and Hyrule seeing more stuff later.

- So long as Link and Zelda have the light force, they will continue to go on many adventures...

RANDOM SPOILERS: Non-storyline Stuff

Din, Nayru and Farore from the Oracles are in this game. Well, not really. According to Nayru's figure I have, they say they are decendants of the famous ones in Labrynna.

- Just to comment - we have no idea of the Oracles life spans. They could have existed from Day 1 of the world, and be the VERY same Oracles in the CAPCOM games - and they could take place later on...

Syrup is in the game again, and there is a random old lady named Maple.

- There are other great characters like Eenie, Meenie, the 12 months (May, June, July, August...), Sturgeon, Postman, etc...

Gorons are in the game, but no other races (other than Deku, and the People of the Wind.)

- People of the Wind used to live in Hyrule, but departed for the heavens sometime ago. You still meet them, however...

Great Fairies now have an insect motif, so there's a Dragonfly, a Butterfly, and a May Fly.

- I didn't get that, unless it was in the figurines...they all come out as "fairies", then transform into the great fairy figure found in Four Swords for GBA.

[SOAP]

Hero of Winds said

A) The demon from TMC's intro wasn't said to be Ganon. In fact, OoT implies that this (OoT) is the first appearance of Ganon.

B) Ganon is dead in Oracles.

C) The Triforce is in Hyrule Castle in Oracles, but the Triforce was never mentioned in TMC, was it?

A. It could be the first appearance of that Ganon or it could it's the same Ganon but it's just that TMC happened so long ago barely anyone rembered him. In fact, since OoT no longer has to be the first game in the series, why must it be the second? LttP and Loz could have easily taken place before OoT if you let go of the belief that there is only one Ganon. For all we know, save MM and TWW, OoT could be last!

B. What does that have to do with anything? If the Ganon in the Oracles is the same one in the TMC intro, then obviously he was killed by the Hero of Men. The Ganon we see in ooT could just be his diembodied sspirit possesing Ganondorf.

C. I think Zythe kinda cleared that one up already.

D. When is Nintendo going to stop making prequels!?

[MikePetersSucks]

Uh....Mario. Sorry to burst your bubble, but when OOT was released, it became factual information that it came before the other Zelda games before it. Also, they meant Ganon was DEAD dead. It's commonly accepted that Oracles comes after LTTP. if this is true, then that means Ganon was completely destroyed, spirit and all, like the TRIFORCE said ~.~ Anyway, moving on.

TSA, good job on your most recent post! I don't think the Hylians would of given the Minish a name that did not suit them. and the "Ri" suffix in japanese always implies the word is holy of some sort, and the Minish do seem to be holy, what with living off happiness and whatnot. The Force being the source of Hylian magic? INGENIUS! That means it could be possible that Hylians were humans at one time, and the Force made them evolve into the most powerful race! it definately seems to be the case that the Royal line channels the Force to the guardians of Hyrule, then to the public (Like how TWW Link didn't have magical power (as far as we know) until he got a part of the Deku Tree)

Also, if I may ask, Who are the People of Wind? I know their from FSA, but...

[coinilius]

MikePetersSucks said

Uh....Mario. Sorry to burst your bubble, but when OOT was released, it became factual information that it came before the other Zelda games before it. Also, they meant Ganon was DEAD dead. It's commonly accepted that Oracles comes after LTTP. if this is true, then that means Ganon was completely destroyed, spirit and all, like the TRIFORCE said ~.~ Anyway, moving on.

Actually, in the GBA version of aLttP, the Essence of the Triforce's line about Ganon being 'completely' destroyed is removed - there's oppurtunity for Ganon to return after aLttP.

[davogones]

OoT was a prequel to all previous games when it was released. But this doesn't mean later games can't take place before OoT. I think that ALttP still comes after OoT, because it refers to events from OoT, and also says that Ganondorf became Ganon. There's still no reason to think there are multiple Ganons and Ganondorfs, but there is plenty of reason now to think that Ganon and Ganondorf are separate people (thanks to FSA), and that Ganon simply inhabits different hosts, Ganondorf being one of them.

Quote

Just to comment - we have no idea of the Oracles life spans. They could have existed from Day 1 of the world, and be the VERY same Oracles in the CAPCOM games - and they could take place later on...

Ralph said that he grew up with Nayru. This implies that Nayru was born a normal human child during the Oracle of Ages time period.

Quote

It's commonly accepted that Oracles comes after LTTP.

This is based on old information. It is by no means proven that the Oracle games come after ALttP. With the new information from FSA that Ganon could be a different person from Ganondorf, this game could really take place at any time (assuming it doesn't conflict with the location of the Triforce or the status of Ganon). We can simply say that Twinrova is trying to revive Ganon, not Ganondorf.

[Khallos]

MikePetersSucks said

Also, if I may ask, Who are the People of Wind? I know their from FSA, but...

They're called the Wind Tribe in the MC and they look well.....foreign, beards and the men wear these sort of Assyrian helmet things and the women wear shawls and have their hair in a bun. Oh yes, they live in the clouds.

[Zythe]

I'm glad my theories have been so widely accepted and agreed with (for once).

Quote

But I'm deviating from my main point. The Oracles are probably servants of the Goddesses, directly or indirectly doesn't matter. Also, I don't think this Force is the Triforce. That would mess up one of the facts we DO know. The Triforce's status throughout history. Perhaps the Force is the blessing of the goddesses, like the Minish gave Link the Force at first, marking him as the chosen one of the goddesses, and then he passed it to Zelda's line, giving her bloodline the power of prophecy and so forth? (Zelda has prophetic powers even without her triforce peice, as I recall from OOT)

The force is implied to be the triforce in several places, specifically because it is pictured as a golden triangle. Calling it the light force, only adds to the theory that this is pre-OOT, because the name evolved throughout history. Also, the 'triforce' by name is three 'forces', so it could easily be "Light force of wisdom/power/courage".

Quote

. Link, who had been knowcked unconscious, wakes up and is then asked by Zelda's father I guess, King Dalton,

He's called King Potho, the dead king's ghost begins with D though, either of these two kings could be the "father of the sleeping Zelda" who made the AoL guardians.

Quote

TSA, good job on your most recent post! I don't think the Hylians would of given the Minish a name that did not suit them. and the "Ri" suffix in japanese always implies the word is holy of some sort, and the Minish do seem to be holy, what with living off happiness and whatnot. The Force being the source of Hylian magic? INGENIUS! That means it could be possible that Hylians were humans at one time, and the Force made them evolve into the most powerful race! it definately seems to be the case that the Royal line channels the Force to the guardians of Hyrule, then to the public (Like how TWW Link didn't have magical power (as far as we know) until he got a part of the Deku Tree)

No, just no. It's the triforce, and it seems to pass on from one female 'Hyrule' (Zelda's last name) to the next (when I don't know, it could be like in TWW where they each have a bit untill one dies, or it could be given to the newborn princess or be transferred upon death, who knows).

Also, could Vaati be the wizard of the AOL-BS? Could TMC Zelda be the sleeping Zelda, seeing as this is pre-OOT. I'm well aware she hasn't been put to sleep, but Vaati could always return.

Another thing, when are we going to see more than one princess/Queen at the same time named Zelda? I'd love to see a game with two sisters named Zelda and a mother named Zelda, confusing, huh?

[martinDTanderson]

Here are the English names of some of the main characters, as people seem to be getting them confused...

<------------------------------->

Minister Potho - In charge of Zelda's wellbeing

Ezlo - Once a minish sorcerer, was transformed into a cap by Vaati

King Daltus - Once a fine swordsman now King

King Gustave - An ancient King of Hyrule

Smith - Childhood friend and rival of King Daltus, Link's Grandfather, was a great swordsman

Vaati - Once a minish and Ezlo's assistant. He is after the force the minish gave to the Hylia.

[SOAP]

With all this talk about the Force being the gift from the Minish, could it be possible Din, Nayru, and Farore are infact Minish?

[Hero of Winds]

Mario Jr said

With all this talk about the Force being the gift from the Minish, could it be possible Din, Nayru, and Farore are infact Minish?

Interesting idea. The Minish did come down from the sky to give the Triforce to Hyrule, and the Goddesses were said to come from a distant nebula.

Zythe, you also said something I like. Perhaps the Light Force is actually the True Force spoken of in ALttP (the power of the whole Triforce).

God, this game's story rocks.

[MikePetersSucks]

OOOoooooooo! thanks for answering all my questions, guys! and wow, since MC is first in the timeline, and the games spread over several centuries, it could be possible that the Goddesses WERE Minish, and they became so revered over the centuries that the people started seeing them as actual deities, if the Minish are not some sort of deity race anyway. So...let's think. The Triforce could of been in Zelda's Bloodline, and then Vaati took two halves (Power and Courage, of course) and when he died, Um...the Triforce peices went to the Minish World/Sacred Realm? (it would make sense if they're the same) and...the Triforce of Wisdom got passed down and crap . Anyway, I would guess that All knowing Goddesses would know better than leaving an object of unbelievable power in the hands of mortals, but we do not know the Minish's full power, and since they get power from happiness, what do they care what is done with the Triforce as long as it doesn't hurt them?