40 replies to this topic

[ganonlord6000]

I am working on a new timeline and I need a few things confirmed first.

1. I heard that Miyamoto trashed the IW idea for FSA because the first FS was on the AT and he had the developers change the story of FSA in order to keep the gameplay intact. If this is true, this gives us the locations of ALTTP, FS, FSA, and possibly TMC.

2. The Japanese Virtual Console description for OOT.
Does anyone have access to this? The American VC description says OOTis first. American marketing material can be laughed at. However, the Japanese marketing material is a bit more reliable than the American stuff.

3. (not a top priority) The back of the Japanese FSA box

4. (not a top priority) Anything that confirms that Ganon died in TWW. I know that most of us believe that he died here, but I have gotten into a few arguements on this subject. I have some things that help confirm this (like a picture showing how far down the Master Sword's blade went), but anything from the developers themselves will be good.

Any of these will be fine for now.

[CID Farwin]

Alright, let's see here:

1. I don't have an interview or anything to link to, but I'm pretty sure Miyamoto "upended the table" with FSA not for any particulars of the story, just that it was getting in the way of the gameplay.

I'm still unsure on the FSA=IW idea, though.

2. I know nothing about this one

3. Back of the ALttP Japanese box here

4. I recall an interview with Aonuma confirming this, I'll see if I can find it.

[bjamez7573]

As far as Ganon in WW, it is in fact confirmed that he died by Nate Bihldorff of the Treehouse Division of Nintendo of America in this interview from Nintendo World Report (only included the relevent piece at the end):

PGC: I don't want to get too far into territory you can't talk about, but do you think with the new Zelda with the new style and vastly better graphics on the GameCube, do you think there's going to be an issue of E or T?

Bihldorff: I don't think there's any question it'll get a T personally. We'll probably have to look at it and have a long discussion with the ESRB. But that is one of their bigger issues, that you can get away with, well, Wind Waker has beautiful graphics but it looks a lot like a cartoon, but the more realistic you get, the more you're going to get [in terms of ratings]. From what we've seen, I don't think there's any question that...

Trinen: We can't talk about what we've seen (laughs)

Bihldorff: I mean, recently we just recently met with the ESRB and talked about Ocarina of Time, and that had some dicey moments, whether or not it was going to get an E, you know, the original one where Ganondorf pukes out all that blood at the end, and then you end up ramming your sword down the pig's throat, you know, when he transforms, and it's not exactly non-violent, and if you imagine a scene like that with vastly improved realistic graphics, I think that'd probably be in the T range.

Trinen: We're really good about working with them too, like, the way submission works, you're basically supposed to send them a video tape of basically the most violent or reprehensible content in the game, and we let them know about the scene in the end where you finally defeat Ganondorf.

Bihldorff: Late, though. We had to tack that on...

Trinen: Did we? I thought we did that at the same time.

Bihldorff: We did an early submission on that, and then we saw that, and were like, "whoa...!"

Trinen: And we saw that and thought that was pretty intense there, and so we showed that to them, and they looked at that and took it into consideration based on the look of the game and how much of the game that represents in terms of the overall gameplay.

Bihldorff: There was no blood, and he turned to stone, and died. They took all that into account.

Trinen: You're not supposed to... you gave the whole thing away, Nate! (laughs)

PGC: Okay, do you guys have anything you want to say in closing?

Trinen: (whispers) Zelda rocks!

[CID Farwin]

Not the one I was thinking of, but it works.

[Impossible]

1. I heard that Miyamoto trashed the IW idea for FSA because the first FS was on the AT and he had the developers change the story of FSA in order to keep the gameplay intact. If this is true, this gives us the locations of ALTTP, FS, FSA, and possibly TMC.

This reminds me of some stuff I've seen on ZU, where people make up bullshit reasons for an event as theory, then turn that into fact and base new theories on it while forgetting that it was never true in the first place, until bit reaches the point where half the premises they argue over there are already assumed to be true as part of the proof, and it's goddamn impossible to debate on the same paradigm unless they realise that.

But no, here's why FSA's story was changed: because Miyamoto thought it was too complex and confusing. Miyamoto is an asshole at times. He may have simplified it, but he made it more confusing by ignoring continuity and leaving some really nonsensical things.

2. The Japanese Virtual Console description for OOT.
Does anyone have access to this? The American VC description says OOTis first. American marketing material can be laughed at. However, the Japanese marketing material is a bit more reliable than the American stuff.

The simple answer is that NoA rehash the same marketing material they wrote in 1998. We don't know what's in the Japanese one, but I doubt it would be any more helpful. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised if we had another case of poor information flow at Nintendo, with how secret they like to keep the timeline. Maybe there are even times where Nintendo "forgets" things that were intended with earlier games (perhaps by other writers or development teams), which I hope they haven't done with ST (yet it kind of looks like it). Which unfortunately leads them to look at things in the same perspective as many theorists - only caring about the plot, and not the actual meaning.

3. (not a top priority) The back of the Japanese FSA box

Pretty sure this wouldn't offer anything, but who knows.

[Jarsh]

This is the best I could get you.

For the Japanese OoT VC description, that is.

[ganonlord6000]

quote name='bjamez7573' date='Oct 23 2009, 08:29 PM' post='488143']

Bihldorff: There was no blood, and he turned to stone, and died. They took all that into account.

Trinen: You're not supposed to... you gave the whole thing away, Nate! (laughs)
[/quote]
How could they have given that away when it was obvious that he died? Here's the picture I mentioned yesterday that shows how far down the Master Sword went (the red dot is where the tip of the blade finally landed):
 Ganon__s_death_1_.JPG   5.69K   13 downloads
I don't think there is any doubt that he died there. Do any of you think that this will be convincing to other sites?

Attached Files

•  Ganon__s_death.bmp   103.83K   5 downloads

[Person]

Bihldorff: There was no blood, and he turned to stone, and died. They took all that into account.

Trinen: You're not supposed to... you gave the whole thing away, Nate! (laughs)

How could they have given that away when it was obvious that he died? Here's the picture I mentioned yesterday that shows how far down the Master Sword went (the red dot is where the tip of the blade finally landed):
 Ganon__s_death_1_.JPG   5.69K   13 downloads
I don't think there is any doubt that he died there. Do any of you think that this will be convincing to other sites?

I actually saw someone try to argue that Ganon didn't die in TP, when he's impaled through the chest. If being impaled through the skull, turned to stone, and then buried under tons of water doesn't kill you, I don't know what will.

[Showsni]

It's because people don't usually turn to stone when stabbed; thus, there is clearly magic involved and anything could have happened. So what might have started just as a way to doge the censors ends up confusing people...

[ganonlord6000]

Bihldorff: There was no blood, and he turned to stone, and died. They took all that into account.

Trinen: You're not supposed to... you gave the whole thing away, Nate! (laughs)

How could they have given that away when it was obvious that he died? Here's the picture I mentioned yesterday that shows how far down the Master Sword went (the red dot is where the tip of the blade finally landed):
 Ganon__s_death_1_.JPG   5.69K   13 downloads
I don't think there is any doubt that he died there. Do any of you think that this will be convincing to other sites?

I actually saw someone try to argue that Ganon didn't die in TP, when he's impaled through the chest. If being impaled through the skull, turned to stone, and then buried under tons of water doesn't kill you, I don't know what will.

How about being stabbed through the skull AND the heart? Nobody can survive that.

It's because people don't usually turn to stone when stabbed; thus, there is clearly magic involved and anything could have happened. So what might have started just as a way to doge the censors ends up confusing people...

Those people obviously don't know anything about mythology. Many people there died just by being turned to stone. They wern't even stabbed first.

[MikePetersSucks]

Those people obviously don't know anything about mythology. Many people there died just by being turned to stone. They wern't even stabbed first.

To be fair, in mythology people turned to stone can be turned back, safe and sound, and evil wizards can generally recover from almost anything. You're being a twat, stop insulting people for not meeting your criteria of intelligent theorizing.

[Impossible]

How could they have given that away when it was obvious that he died?

It's a spoiler, that's what he's saying... You aren't meant to tell people about the ending of a game in an interview.

But yeah, people will argue any stupid thing imaginable, especially when it relates to Ganon. Remember? He wasn't killed in TP, the Master Sword sealed him in the Sacred Realm, and he broke out again leading to TWW!

[Mad Scrub]

Turning to stone would've probably been a more fitting way to go in TWW because of it's art style. Save the dramatic death sequences for the more realistic Zelda's.

[Person]

Turning to stone would've probably been a more fitting way to go in TWW because of it's art style. Save the dramatic death sequences for the more realistic Zelda's.

Or the fact that it's rated E and couldn't show blood. TP was rated T and could therefore show a more realistic death scene.

[ganonlord6000]

How could they have given that away when it was obvious that he died?

It's a spoiler, that's what he's saying... You aren't meant to tell people about the ending of a game in an interview.

But yeah, people will argue any stupid thing imaginable, especially when it relates to Ganon. Remember? He wasn't killed in TP, the Master Sword sealed him in the Sacred Realm, and he broke out again leading to TWW!

Now that you mention it, this reminds me of some show on youtube a couple of years ago of some people posing as Zelda and other Zelda characters and answering questions about the games (actually, only OOT, MM, TP, and the FS games). They said that Ganondorf(they believe that Ganondorf and Ganon are two entirely different beings) survived TP and was sealed in the Dark World (uh-oh). And after seeing theories you had to mention and disprove in your document (I never thought that people placed games after TWW/PH until I read that), Impossible, I thought that I have seen everything. Then again, that was before I saw the kooky theories thread.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 27 October 2009 - 09:24 AM.

[ganonlord6000]

Oh. Does anybody know where I can find the translation of the japanese SNES ALTTP manual?

[Person]

Oh. Does anybody know where I can find the translation of the japanese SNES ALTTP manual?

Right here.

[ganonlord6000]

Oh. Does anybody know where I can find the translation of the japanese SNES ALTTP manual?

Right here.

Thanks. This should be in the translation section as well, shouldn't it? Anyways, this translation was most helpful. The Master Sword story in the real ALTTP manual is identical to what we are told in OOT. I need to include that in my neww timeline.

[ganonlord6000]

To be fair, in mythology people turned to stone can be turned back, safe and sound

Some can, but not all. Those turned to stone in Greek mythology by Medusa are dead (correct me if I am wrong here). I know there are a few other myths from that area that have some people that turned to stone and were killed.

Who would have guessed that a manual story (ALTTP) and a little bit of censering (TWW) would cause so much trouble? Some people even said that Ganon had the ToP at the end of TWW. Even if he did, could that have saved him?

[Person]

To be fair, in mythology people turned to stone can be turned back, safe and sound

Some can, but not all. Those turned to stone in Greek mythology by Medusa are dead (correct me if I am wrong here). I know there are a few other myths from that area that have some people that turned to stone and were killed.

Who would have guessed that a manual story (ALTTP) and a little bit of censering (TWW) would cause so much trouble? Some people even said that Ganon had the ToP at the end of TWW. Even if he did, could that have saved him?

Ganon most certainly does not have the ToP at the end of TWW, but if he did it probably would have saved his life. In OoT they seal him instead of kill him, and in TP it stops him from dying at his execution. At the end of TP, he loses it just before he dies.

[joeymartin64]

At the end of TP, he loses it just before he dies.

I don't believe this to be the case. The emblem fading doesn't necessarily mean he lost it. I think it just couldn't save him that time because of the whole "Master Sword trumps Triforce" thing. This could also apply to TWW, but there are other things in play there, what with the pre-battle cutscene.

Edited by joeymartin64, 02 November 2009 - 01:45 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Or alternatively the fading emblem is proof that TP Ganondorf actually did die. That's what I had assumed.

[joeymartin64]

Yeah, that's sort of what I'm getting at. It bailed him out during the execution, but when the Master Sword is involved, it fades out, essentially saying, "Yeah, can't help with this one. Sorry."

[ganonlord6000]

Yeah. The ToP couldn't have saved Ganon even if he did have it in TWW.

[Average Gamer]

Yeah. The ToP couldn't have saved Ganon even if he did have it in TWW.

The ToP may have actually been able to save Ganondorf in the ending of TWW, seeing as how he didn't have any weaknesses like the scar from TP.

[Fin]

Yeah, I prefer to think that the Triforce of Power offers sufficient protection from the Master Sword. I don't like the idea that they could have killed Ganon in Ocarina of Time, but opted not to. (Okay, maybe they didn't know, but it still isn't very satisfying.)

[Showsni]

The ToP didn't help him in LoZ... Although he was silver arrowed there.

[Fin]

I'm willing to accept Silver Arrows as an exception.

[joeymartin64]

Yeah, I prefer to think that the Triforce of Power offers sufficient protection from the Master Sword. I don't like the idea that they could have killed Ganon in Ocarina of Time, but opted not to. (Okay, maybe they didn't know, but it still isn't very satisfying.)

The Master Sword was specifically created to Drumpf powers granted by the Triforce.

[Fin]

I know, but in the same game where that fact was introduced the Master Sword was only capable of stunning Ganon.

Edited by Finbarr, 02 November 2009 - 10:06 PM.