126 replies to this topic

[Raien]

That's an opinion. Thing is that your only mean to prove anything right now is using outside factors. That's hardly conclusive as you can just pull any number of mythological/LoTR reference and say that their meaning are definitive even in Zelda, yet they might only make sense to you.

Why do you keep going back to the LotR reference, which I only used as a readily-available comparison and has absolutely nothing to do with my current argument? What I'm talking about are Japanese cultural elements that the developers have built into the game's plot, and which most, if not all, Japanese players would be able to recognise. I'm not talking about my personal opinions or interpretations, I'm talking about facts equivalent to reading a direct Japanese translation.

And do not dare to accuse me of lying. I've built a reputation over three years by being completely honest and abhorrent of people who twist the evidence to suit their own ends. The worst you can accuse me of is making mistakes. But I am not wrong this time; the "thief" identity was inherant to the human Ganondorf and was destroyed with the character's rebirth into Ganon.

[Nerushi]

Why do you keep going back to the LotR reference, which I only used as a readily-available comparison and has absolutely nothing to do with my current argument? What I'm talking about are Japanese cultural elements that the developers have built into the game's plot, and which most, if not all, Japanese players would be able to recognise. I'm not talking about my personal opinions or interpretations, I'm talking about facts equivalent to reading a direct Japanese translation.

And do not dare to accuse me of lying. I've built a reputation over three years by being completely honest and abhorrent of people who twist the evidence to suit their own ends. The worst you can accuse me of is making mistakes. But I am not wrong this time; the "thief" identity was inherant to the human Ganondorf and was destroyed with the character's rebirth into Ganon.

I am not trying to accuse you of anything. I am just saying we have different opinions on a matter. You acting elitist against me isn't really convincing. Either way, so far you haven't backed up your statement with evidence. And by that I mean the statement that Ganondorf the thief was a human in ALTTP. The closest thing to a actual hint of evidence was the LoTR reference, hence why I mentioned it. Other than that you've mentioned that it's connected to something mythological ( what mytho? ) and that any Japanese people would at a quick glance understand that thief = human? Yet, where the damn evidence to support this? Did you expect I would take your word for it and just leave it at that?
You're the one with something to prove. And don't say you're to bored to indulge me. If that's the case then you would have dropped this conversation long ago.

[Average Gamer]

Seeing as how ALttP Ganon basically "stole" the throne of Hyrule (and arguably the army) via the Agahnim plan, I find it unlikely that Ganon couldn't be a thief and a Maou at the same time.

[Raien]

I've spoken to MPS about whether there's anything that Japanese culture can explain about Ganon's transformation, but it appears that I was mistaken for making such a claim. I withdraw from the debate and will now go play the shit out of Metroid Prime Trilogy as punishment for making an ass out of myself.

Edited by Raien, 05 September 2009 - 02:31 PM.

[Nerushi]

Anyway, from this thread ( and some from ZU ) I have come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as a restriction not allowing FSA going before OoT.
The restriction was either a decision made based on

1. The already established idea that OoT must be first, and if not, the idea that OoT Ganondorf must be first, or that there can be only one Ganon. All of these ideas holds no basis anylonger thanks to FSA. Only reason people still cling to these ideas is because of bias.

2. That it comes directly before ALTTP because of the similiarity between the games, and that FSA sets up with Trident Ganon. But then again, there are similarity in every Zelda games. The ones between FSA and ALTTP only became more apperant because of the graphic, which are not story-related. Other than that, they're few. Also, FSA doesn't set up Trident Ganon directly for ALTTP as much as it does indirectly. He is sealed in the FS, not in the Sacred Realm, which would be setting up directly for ALTTP.

There also the case, that there was very few suggestion in this thread itself, and discussing this topic almost always lead to people defending their own timeline, as to why FSA can still come after OoT, rather than attacking the idea that it comes before OoT. There seem to be a lack of evidence against a pre-OoT, while there's a lot of flaws with a placement on either CT or AT.

I consider the case closed.

[Zola Revolution]

He is sealed in the FS, not in the Sacred Realm, which would be setting up directly for ALTTP.

Well, consider the Imprisoning War where "a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts" opened the gates to the Sacred Realm. Their King was Ganondorf Dragmire. Ganondorf laid his hand on the Triforce and the Sacred Realm became a dark world. While Ganondorf remained in the dark world that the Sacred Realm had become, the King sent seven wisemen to close the gateway to the Sacred Realm. So, all this could come after he breaks free of the Four Sword (which is never told of).

[MikePetersSucks]

Their King was Ganondorf Dragmire.

Anyone else find this super fucking funny due to Zola wanting to be a Japanese purist, then using the name North America invented that isn't in any Japanese materials?

[Zola Revolution]

OK. I suppose you have the japanese version. Could you show me the translation particular part in that language?

[Showsni]

http://www.zeldalegends.net/index.php?n=z3translation

[Zola Revolution]

Thanks.

[Zola Revolution]

OK, but my point is still valid. Which is to say, Ganon entered the Sacred Realm before the story of Triforce of the Gods started.

I am still quite a beginner at Japanese; forgive my bad judgments for I do not know how to fully translate the Japanese texts.

[Nerushi]

Zola: I don't disagree with your point. In fact, that's a necessity for most timelines including mine. The point is though, that the Four Sword can probably hold someon sealed for a longer time. The question remains, if FSA comes directly behind ALTTP, why not just seal him directly in the SR?

[MikePetersSucks]

That was actually what was going to happen in the original draft of FSA. They changed it for whatever bumfuck reason.

[Viral]

That was actually what was going to happen in the original draft of FSA. They changed it for whatever bumfuck reason.

Damn Miyamoto and his upending of tea-tables.

[Pinecove]

That was actually what was going to happen in the original draft of FSA. They changed it for whatever bumfuck reason.

You don't know that. We know that the MGW was going to be the DW in FSA, but we don't know that Ganon wasn't going to be sealed in the FS which was stuck behind a seal with similar art design to the art of the original SW seal. In other words: stop saying things you don't know as fact. It makes you look like a bad theorist.

[MikePetersSucks]

Except I do know, because there's documentation of exactly what I said. So....lol, don't criticize people if you don't know what you're talking about.

[Pinecove]

There are only FIVE lines of removed text in FSA. Granted I'm inclined to believe that they would make FSA the SW but there's no proof for what you just said.

[MikePetersSucks]

Uh, yeaa....there is. I'm not talking about the removed text, I'm talking about the scrapped scenario. You know, the one where FSA actually WAS literally a retconned Seal War?

[Impossible]

You don't know that. We know that the MGW was going to be the DW in FSA, but we don't know that Ganon wasn't going to be sealed in the FS which was stuck behind a seal with similar art design to the art of the original SW seal.

Okay, come on, it was a blatantly half-assed ending, though. And the original story seemed to have all the necessary elements for the sages to cast a seal on Ganon in a scenario almost identical to the IW - closer than OoT was, even, if Ganon would have obtained the Triforce. And if the Sacred Realm was going to be in the game (as well as the sages), I'm inclined to say that the Triforce obviously would have been, too.

There are only FIVE lines of removed text in FSA.

Well, no. There are a lot of lines of removed text. It's just that only a small number (thought it's more than 5) were left in the text dump, and we have to infer what the rest could have been.

If FSA could be before OoT, it would solve a lot of problems. This will most likely never happen.

[Nerushi]

If FSA could be before OoT, it would solve a lot of problems. This will most likely never happen.

Would care to elaborate? Just you saying it doesn't make it any less likely, you know.

[Impossible]

It would allow us to have definitive placements for all three FS games, without contradicting Aonuma's "FS is the oldest story". Plus, FSA-ALttP, while obviously intended, is a mess due to the changes in the story.

[Person]

It would allow us to have definitive placements for all three FS games, without contradicting Aonuma's "FS is the oldest story". Plus, FSA-ALttP, while obviously intended, is a mess due to the changes in the story.

My alternate timeline removes OoT and the other 3D games from the equation altogether. The only reason I don't use this 2D/3D timeline as my main theory is because of all the obvious ALttP foreshadowing in TP.

[TheAvengerLever]

AltTP!!!

I see the foreshadowing now.

[MikePetersSucks]

You just blew my mind, AvengerButton.

[TheAvengerLever]

It's what I do.


*whooshes away*

[SOAP]

Okay, just so we're clear, what is the consensus on FS/FSA -> OoT thingy? Cuz I not against it at least.

[Masamune]

Personal bias aside, I think it has some solid ground to stand on. I don't like it, though.

[MikePetersSucks]

It strikes me as tremendously stupid, due to the very, very, very clear and solid LTTP/FSA connections.

[Nerushi]

What connections? Surely you aren't talking about geography and paltry cameos? Because they aren't solid connections. A more correct answear would be that there was solid connections, but they where removed after a certain upending the tea table, and because of that the games aren't related by story anymore. There's actually no reason for them to be a pair, and the developer have never ever even mentioned ALTTP in the same sentence as FSA. Yet they have, given us a straight foward placement for FSA. It is not stupid to think that the developer are right. It's these all-knowledgeable fans who are stupid for dismissing Aonuma own word in order to embrace something that might not mean anything at all!

[ganonlord6000]

What connections? Surely you aren't talking about geography and paltry cameos? Because they aren't solid connections. A more correct answear would be that there was solid connections, but they where removed after a certain upending the tea table, and because of that the games aren't related by story anymore. There's actually no reason for them to be a pair, and the developer have never ever even mentioned ALTTP in the same sentence as FSA. Yet they have, given us a straight foward placement for FSA. It is not stupid to think that the developer are right. It's these all-knowledgeable fans who are stupid for dismissing Aonuma own word in order to embrace something that might not mean anything at all!

Hmm. You may be on to something. Maybe FSA was Ganon's actual backstory. Maybe OOT's Ganon is a clone like ciela and Oshus were clones in PH. FSA does fit nicely before OOT now that I think about it. Ganon could have been trying to break the FSA seal in OOT and partially succeded. He then lasts a few centuries (possibly millienia) and dies in TWW. It also would explain why Vaati wasn't known of in TP. I sure hope that Zelda Wii and ST help with this.