130 replies to this topic

[Raien]

I still think it sounds silly, Average Gamer. I understand the principle, but it just stops being feasible when taken to extremes.

[Average Gamer]

I find it to be one of the most reasonable ideas out there. You don't have to assume that, for example, FSA Ganon broke free, died, and a new Ganon was born for ALttP or something.

Edit: Regarding the topic, here's a link from a recent ZU thread discussing the Master Sword in the Oracle games. You guys might want to read it for the heck of it. If my replies seem odd in it, I had a busy schedule at the time.

http://www.zeldauniv...he-oracles.html

Edited by Average Gamer, 03 September 2009 - 05:20 PM.

[Raien]

I find it to be one of the most reasonable ideas out there. You don't have to assume that, for example, FSA Ganon broke free, died, and a new Ganon was born for ALttP or something.

To me it sounds just as bad. I honestly can't see the logic in the Maidens placing Ganon's seal in the Sacred Realm, no matter how much they underestimate his power.

And anyway, Ganondorf was human when he entered the Sacred Realm. A maiden says so.

[Average Gamer]

To me it sounds just as bad. I honestly can't see the logic in the Maidens placing Ganon's seal in the Sacred Realm, no matter how much they underestimate his power.

Considering what's happened within the series, I find it to be the most plausible idea.

And anyway, Ganondorf was human when he entered the Sacred Realm. A maiden says so.

She doesn't call him human, she just calls him Ganondorf and says that he was a thief. Seeing as how Ganon had only recently become a beast in FSA and began using the name Ganon, I don't see much of an issue with it. She later corrects herself anyway.

Additionally, when the GBA version of ALttP was released, Nintendo probably still had the IW plan for FSA in mind. Considering the structure of FSA and the removed quotes, Ganondorf was probably meant to claim the Triforce instead of the Trident. Just throwing that out there.

Edited by Average Gamer, 03 September 2009 - 07:20 PM.

[Raien]

She doesn't call him human, she just calls him Ganondorf and says that he was a thief. Seeing as how Ganon had only recently become a beast in FSA and began using the name Ganon, I don't see much of an issue with it. She later corrects herself anyway.

Ganondorf the thief is a completely different identity from Ganon the Demon King, with the change brought about by a literal rebirth of the character. If the Maiden refers to Ganondorf the thief, she is referring to the human character.

And the Maiden only corrects herself when describing the threat that Link is currently facing. What was once a villainous thief is now an evil demon king.

Edited by Raien, 03 September 2009 - 07:35 PM.

[Person]

Ganon's title really only applies to his power level, not his form per se. In TP and TWW he goes around calling himself "Ganon, King of Darkness" while he's still in human form.

[Masamune]

While that is true, its worth noting that the name Ganondorf is never used to describe pig Ganon.

[Raien]

Ganon's title really only applies to his power level, not his form per se. In TP and TWW he goes around calling himself "Ganon, King of Darkness" while he's still in human form.

Actually, OoT, TP and TWW are the only occasions where "Ganondorf" and "Ganon" were interchangeable, but that's only because his character in general seems to exist in limbo between his original human identity and his developing demon king identity. I think it's clear that due to only receiving the ToP, Ganondorf's power was not strong enough to achieve a full transformation in those games.

Edited by Raien, 03 September 2009 - 07:45 PM.

[Average Gamer]

Ganondorf the thief is a completely different identity from Ganon the Demon King, with the change brought about by a literal rebirth of the character.

Ganondorf and Ganon are the same guy, and this quote:

At this time the evil King Ganon, who threatened Hyrule, was born.

Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time.

Comes off as figurative to me, not literal.

And the Maiden only corrects herself when describing the threat that Link is currently facing.

While that is true, Ganondorf and Ganon are still the same guy. I honestly see no reason to assume something as extreme as one Ganon dying and a new Ganon being born simply because the FSA Ganon was called Ganondorf. He had only recently transformed in FSA to boot. I can picture the name Ganondorf still sticking to him at that time.

Actually, OoT, TP and TWW are the only occasions where "Ganondorf" and "Ganon" were interchangeable, but that's only because his character in general seems to exist in limbo between his original human identity and his developing demon king identity.

He's already a Maou/Daimaou in OoT before he transforms, so I believe that his demon king "identity" doesn't necessarily rely on his physical form.

I think it's clear that due to only receiving the ToP, Ganondorf's power was not strong enough to achieve a full transformation in those games.

It certainly seems like a "full" transformation to me. Speaking of transformations, in ALttP Ganon became a bat, indicating that he doesn't seem to be limited to the pig form. Also, Ganon only reverted back to his human form in OoT after being utterly defeated for a second time, and if it weren't for his immortality he'd have probably died there (and earlier atop his tower).

Raien, why would the Triforce of Power be incapable of transforming Ganondorf into a "true" demon while the Trident could?

Edited by Average Gamer, 03 September 2009 - 07:59 PM.

[Raien]

Ganondorf and Ganon are the same guy.

Yes and no. Ganondorf's transformation into the Demon King was absolute, leaving no trace of his humanity behind. Zelda pretty much says so herself before FSA's final battle. So while it is technically the same soul, it has been changed and molded in such a way that Ganondorf and Ganon are not really the same.

I guess the best comparison would be the Ringwraiths in LotR, although their transformations were obviously more dramatic (from good to evil).

He's already a Maou/Daimaou in OoT before he transforms, so I believe that his demon king "identity" doesn't necessarily rely on his physical form.

Once again, not quite. Ganondorf in OoT was unable to transform Hyrule into the Dark World, which certainly indicates a lack of strength in that regard.

It certainly seems like a "full" transformation to me. Speaking of transformations, in ALttP Ganon became a bat, indicating that he doesn't seem to be limited to the pig form. Also, Ganon only reverted back to his human form in OoT after being utterly defeated for a second time, and if it weren't for his immortality he'd have probably died there (and earlier atop his tower).

Ganondorf/Ganon can take many forms, but there is always the true form. Ganondorf's true form is human, Ganon's true form is the pig.

Raien, why would the Triforce of Power be incapable of transforming Ganondorf into a "true" demon while the Trident could?

The Trident is concentrated evil magic, and evidently the most powerful evil magic ever witnessed in the Zelda series to date (save Ganon's own power, of course).

Edited by Raien, 03 September 2009 - 08:05 PM.

[Average Gamer]

Yes and no. Ganondorf's transformation into the Demon King was absolute, leaving no trace of his humanity behind. Zelda pretty much says so herself before FSA's final battle. So while it is technically the same soul, it has been changed and molded in such a way that Ganondorf and Ganon are not really the same.

How? They're both clearly the same person and evil, and Rauru even called OoT Ganondorf the evil incarnation of darkness. Even if FSA Ganon preferred his pig form, it's still the same guy and only his power has changed. Zelda's "once a Gerudo" quote may even refer to just the physical transformation.

Once again, not quite. Ganondorf in OoT was unable to transform Hyrule into the Dark World, which certainly indicates a lack of strength in that regard.

However, Ganondorf was waiting for Link to awaken the Sages so that Zelda would reveal herself. Thus he may have been purposefully sparing Hyrule from that fate so that Link would have something to save to create a false hope for Zelda.

Ganondorf/Ganon can take many forms, but there is always the true form. Ganondorf's true form is human, Ganon's true form is the pig.

Again, it's the same guy. It'd probably be better if you just said that his "true" form changed into something else over time.

The Trident is concentrated evil magic, and evidently the most powerful evil magic ever witnessed in the Zelda series to date (save Ganon's own power, of course).

The important thing, however, is the "save Ganon's own power" part. In OoT, Ganondorf was an incredibly powerful, evil sorcerer who could kill gods and who Zelda feared could destroy Hyrule even without the ToP. The ToP then drastically amplified his powers after he obtained it. If Ganondorf was already freakishly powerful and evil, why wouldn't the immense power boost from the ToP be enough to give him a "true" demon form?