130 replies to this topic

[joeymartin64]

I was looking through some stuff, and this point of contention came to me. I poked around a bit, but didn't see anything related to this any more recently than page 3, so I figured I'd bring it up.

Anyway, pretty self-explanatory. Personally, I do not consider it canon, because it's not plot-relevant at all, none of its super special Happy Meal powers are ever mentioned or used, and it appears in a way that it never does otherwise, outside of Hyrule, no less.

Go.

[SOAP]

Who voted yes!? LOL, what a tool.

[Masamune]

It doesn't matter. But if you do want to consider it canon, I'd say the only logical route for it would be if it originated through Farore's powers. If you don't, well, that doesn't matter either. The only problem it could present is if you use the "Master Sword Sleeps Forever..." line as an important part of your timeline.

[Person]

Considering that there are like 5 different ways to get it and only one of them has any resemblance to how you get it in other games, I'm saying optional sidequest item at best. Of course, I'm the guy to tries to use Palace of the Four Sword to try and fill the FSA-ALttP plot holes, so I guess I'm being a bit hypocritical here. But what the heck.

[Masamune]

Someone tried to tell me that the Palace of the Four Sword wasn't canon once and I laughed.

Maybe it wasn't even a real Master Sword. To borrow off one of Fintin's previous avatars...

Edited by Masamune, 27 August 2009 - 08:32 AM.

[Raien]

Given the significance of the Master Sword in the Zelda mythology, it doesn't make sense that a random character on a random island should possess it in Oracles. As I see it, it was just a bonus item tacked on to the end of the game to encourage connectivity.

And there really isn't any evidence that the Palace of the Four Sword is canon either. Not only is it just a bonus dungeon tacked on to the end of the game to encourage connectivity (exactly like the Master Sword in Oracles), but it has no tangible connections to the stories of ALttP and FSA, and the developers even confirmed that there was no intent for the dungeon to connnect the FS games to ALttP. Its closest equivalent is the Color Dungeon in LA: DX, and I've seen no one trying to explain the signifiance of that dungeon in the timeline.

Edited by Raien, 27 August 2009 - 09:53 AM.

[Person]

Given the significance of the Master Sword in the Zelda mythology, it doesn't make sense that a random character on a random island should possess it in Oracles. As I see it, it was just a bonus item tacked on to the end of the game to encourage connectivity.

And there really isn't any evidence that the Palace of the Four Sword is canon either. Not only is it just a bonus dungeon tacked on to the end of the game to encourage connectivity (exactly like the Master Sword in Oracles), but it has no tangible connections to the stories of ALttP and FSA, and the developers even confirmed that there was no intent for the dungeon to connnect the FS games to ALttP. Its closest equivalent is the Color Dungeon in LA: DX, and I've seen no one trying to explain the signifiance of that dungeon in the timeline.

That's because the color dungeon was on Koholint, which was all just a dream anyway and had no timeline significance. And yes, we know that the FS series wasn't supposed to connect with the main series, but then FSA came out and threw in Ganon and a bunch of connections to ALttP. Since it was developed by different people, the developer intentions of one developer apparently didn't match up with the others.

And I'm not trying to prove that PotFS is totally 100% canon, just that it fills the largest gap in my timeline theory and I use it to fill the largest plot hole.

Back to the Master Sword again. There is one possible way that the way of obtaining the MS could possibly make it canon. Playing OoA-OoS, if you use the password to get the Noble Sword upgrade, you'll find the Master Sword in the Lost Woods like it's supposed to be. None of this "The Zora King sharpens it" or "It's broken and you fix it" nonsense.

Edited by Person, 27 August 2009 - 10:52 AM.

[Zola Revolution]

I think if something as important as the Master Sword was in the Mysterious Fruit of the Tree games, then it would have been mentioned in one way or another.

[Person]

I think if something as important as the Master Sword was in the Mysterious Fruit of the Tree games, then it would have been mentioned in one way or another.

Good point. It is actually never mentioned outside of the dialog box where you get it.

[Raien]

And I'm not trying to prove that PotFS is totally 100% canon, just that it fills the largest gap in my timeline theory and I use it to fill the largest plot hole.

How? Ganon was a demon sealed in the Four Sword in FSA, but a human sealed in the Sacred Realm in ALttP's prologue. How does the PotFS make that any less inconsistent?

Back to the Master Sword again. There is one possible way that the way of obtaining the MS could possibly make it canon. Playing OoA-OoS, if you use the password to get the Noble Sword upgrade, you'll find the Master Sword in the Lost Woods like it's supposed to be. None of this "The Zora King sharpens it" or "It's broken and you fix it" nonsense.

Except every indication suggests the canon placement is OoS > OoA, including the games' serial numbers. And your theory wouldn't explain what the Master Sword would be doing out of Hyrule anyway.

[MikePetersSucks]

BIG, EPIC, RESCINDING NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

[Masamune]

And I'm not trying to prove that PotFS is totally 100% canon, just that it fills the largest gap in my timeline theory and I use it to fill the largest plot hole.

How? Ganon was a demon sealed in the Four Sword in FSA, but a human sealed in the Sacred Realm in ALttP's prologue. How does the PotFS make that any less inconsistent?

In a FSA>ALttP placement, the dungeon is very handy at explaining away Ganon's imprisonment in the Four Sword at the end of FSA.

[Raien]

In a FSA>ALttP placement, the dungeon is very handy at explaining away Ganon's imprisonment in the Four Sword at the end of FSA.

How exactly does it explain it?

[Masamune]

The Four Sword is found broken into four pieces beneath Ganon's personal hideout, the Golden Pyramid. It would suggest the Four Sword was broken somehow, releasing Ganon. It also ends up being one of the most heavily guarded places around, meaning that Ganon really didn't want anyone getting his hands on it. With that, it might make sense that Link (or someone) wanted to make sure some jerkwad didn't claim the Four Sword and release Ganon (you know... like what happened to Vaati in FSA) and figured what better place to hide it than in the Sacred Realm where no one is supposed to be able to get to anyways. Or something like that, in any case.

Of course it's all conjecture, but it's a nice way of tying the two games together, since they definitely seem to go right after one another in some order.

[Person]

In a FSA>ALttP placement, the dungeon is very handy at explaining away Ganon's imprisonment in the Four Sword at the end of FSA.

How exactly does it explain it?

Four Sword is in the Dark World and all split up, guarded by Shadow Links. Maybe he busted out of it between FSA and ALttP.

As for the OoA-OoS order involving the Master Sword, that's just my preferred order that has stuff fit better. There still is no canon order. The Master Sword is in the Lost Woods if you use the password to get the Noble Sword instead of finding it in the woods, so you'll find the Master Sword where the Noble Sword would have been. As for the "how did it leave Hyrule" problem, maybe Holodrum and Hyrule border and the Lost Woods overlap between the two countries?

Of course, bear in mind that everything I am saying here is speculation.

[Masamune]

Wouldn't it make more sense for Farore to just conjure it out of thin air then trying to do the Lost Woods approach?

[Showsni]

It really doesn't matter much; it's like asking, does Link get the Light Arrows in Minish Cap, canonically? You can easily beat the game without them, they're given to you by a random NPC, you have to complete a sidequest to get them... Ultimately, it makes no real odds.

If you want to say Link doesn't get the Master Sword in Oracles, it's not going to affect any timeline at all.

If you want to say he does get it, it's unlikely to affect a timeline much, as the Master Sword is well known for spending centuries "lost."

It's unlikely we'll ever get a game confirming if Link canonically does or doesn't get the MS; or the Light Arrows in MC, or the second quiver upgrade in OoT, or the Couple's Mask in MM, or the fourth magic upgrade in AoL, or the boomerang in LA... And it really doesn't matter.

[Raien]

So let me get this straight. We have a single item in two completely different places, in two completely different conditions, and with no explanation as to how one situation leads to another. You say that it's fine to speculate a transition because the games fit nicely together.

Alright. I think it would be nice to place LoZ-AoL at the beginning of the timeline, so that the Sleeping Zelda backstory can be restored to its original status. So I speculate that when the goddesses returned to the heavens, the King of Hyrule found the Triforce, and Link in AoL put it back in the Sacred Realm. Yeah, that sounds nice.

PS: Person, there is a canon order. It's OoS > OoA. This is in the games' serial numbers and other publications surrounding the titles.

Edited by Raien, 27 August 2009 - 02:21 PM.

[Masamune]

So let me get this straight. We have a single item in two completely different places, in two completely different conditions, and with no explanation as to how one situation leads to another. You say that it's fine to speculate a transition because the games fit nicely together.

I'm almost 100% certain that's pretty much what we do around here.

[Raien]

I'm almost 100% certain that's pretty much what we do around here.

It's not what good theorists do. Theories should be determined by the evidence, not the whims of the theorist. Of course, not every Zelda game has a particular placement in the timeline, and so a theorist's choice of placement is at their own discretion. But to completely make up a connection between two games in that way is just an excuse to ignore the facts.

Edited by Raien, 27 August 2009 - 02:33 PM.

[Masamune]

Well, I think you misunderstand what Person and I are doing. We place FSA-ALttP together for entirely different reasons, not just because of that dungeon. But it's because that we place them the way that we do, that we feel we can speculate on the how and why's things are different at Point A from Point B.

[Raien]

I still don't think there is anything to indicate that the PotFS is canon.

[Masamune]

Clue 1: It's in the game
Clue 2: It's in the damn game

That satisfies me.

[Raien]

Clue 1: It's in the game
Clue 2: It's in the damn game

That satisfies me.

If everything in a game is canon, you'd have a hell of a time explaining why characters refer to the "A button" and in this case, why a character determines Link's hero status based on the actions of an entirely different Link. When context is accounted for, "It's in the game" simply doesn't hold up by itself.

[Masamune]

If we can't just say "It's in the game", then how can I determine if anything optional in any a game is canon?

As far as canon is concerned, the fact that characters break the fourth wall means squat to the timeline. There's a difference between game mechanics and an entire dungeon.

[Person]

I was never attempting to argue for the canon status of PotFS. I merely use it in my timeline theory to fill a plot hole. I put FSA before ALttP for numerous other reasons, and I just like to speculate about PotFS. Notice I was saying that I was being a "bit hypocritical" about not considering the Master Sword in Oracles canon when I used PotFS in my own theory. I'm aware of my own contradictions.

As for the canon order of Oracles, nobody can really say what they're supposed to be. The serial numbers just have production order on them. Just because the carts for OoS were put together first does not make the canon order OoS-OoA. They were released at the same time, and you can play the game in any order. Nintendo has given no official statement as to what that order is supposed to be.

[Fin]

Personally, I think the story works better starting with Ages.

[Zola Revolution]

Do you have proof from the game? That would be helpful. "It's in the game" is a theory, not proof. Maybe you could show us what you see that causes you to believe that way? I'm just saying, it would be helpful.

[Masamune]

Okay, here's what you do. You get the cart of "A Link to the Past/Four Swords" on the GBA. You beat Four Swords on it (you'll need a friend!) and beat A Link to the Past. At this point, you'll be able to access the Palace of the Four Swords there. Voila. I've proved it's in the game. If you need more, I can probably find you a Youtube video.

Because, "It's in the game" IS fact, because it is in the game. In no way, shape, or form is that a theory.

[bjamez7573]

The thing with using the PotFS as canon is to try to explain a gap between two games that has no explanation by anything else in any game, manual or creator quote. Considering that FSA-ALTTP placement fits in a lot respects, it is hurt by the fact the ending of FSA and the beginning of ALTTP do not match well. Its possible that Anouma designed FSA to precede and connect with ALTTP specifically because of the PotFS was already present in GBA ALTTP (but its just a total guess).

And I'm not trying to prove that PotFS is totally 100% canon, just that it fills the largest gap in my timeline theory and I use it to fill the largest plot hole.

How? Ganon was a demon sealed in the Four Sword in FSA, but a human sealed in the Sacred Realm in ALttP's prologue. How does the PotFS make that any less inconsistent?

Don't forget that GBA ALTTP Manual is the newest canon and purposely leaves out details of the Imprisoning War (including Ganon). If I remember correctly, the game is quite vague as to how Ganon(dorf) got there.

So let me get this straight. We have a single item in two completely different places, in two completely different conditions, and with no explanation as to how one situation leads to another. You say that it's fine to speculate a transition because the games fit nicely together.

It may not be. Remember in the beginning of FSA when Zelda must open the portal to the Four Sword Sanctuary? This is very possibly an entrance to the Sacred Realm in the very same place PotFS is in GBA ALTTP.

Alright. I think it would be nice to place LoZ-AoL at the beginning of the timeline, so that the Sleeping Zelda backstory can be restored to its original status. So I speculate that when the goddesses returned to the heavens, the King of Hyrule found the Triforce, and Link in AoL put it back in the Sacred Realm. Yeah, that sounds nice.

This is not speculation. This is a theory backed by evidence that I think has been overlooked by too many people. The Sleeping Zelda theory is Canon that can't be ignored in determining LOZ/AOL's placement. Everyone says it's retconned but there is no good evidence to support this.

I'm almost 100% certain that's pretty much what we do around here.

It's not what good theorists do. Theories should be determined by the evidence, not the whims of the theorist. Of course, not every Zelda game has a particular placement in the timeline, and so a theorist's choice of placement is at their own discretion. But to completely make up a connection between two games in that way is just an excuse to ignore the facts.

What we are talking about here is not theories backed or not backed by evidence - but deciding what is evidence in the game