One can argue that TWW (The Wind Waker) takes place after OoT as the third installment in the Zelda Storyline (OoT being 1st and MM being 2nd) with ALttP being 4th. There are theories to suggest that the Hyrule in ALttP is NOT the same as the one in OoT because the rest of Hyrule completely vanished at the end of TWW and Link and Zelda needed to find a new place to call Hyrule. However, if you notice (and The Legends of Zelda mentions this too), the ALttP and OoT Hyrule look the same if you add a few stuff and rotate them a bit. I believe that ALttP comes after the Ocarina of Time past, which explains why no one in ALttP knows about the Hero of Time, because in the OoT past, the Hero of Time didn't exist.
The second part to my theory is that TWW takes place in the OoT alternate future (in which Ganondorf takes over Hyrule). Yes, I know, it sounds dumb, but it can make sense. In TWW, everyone knew about the Hero of Time, and so did the people of the OoT alternate future.
In conclusion, I think that no one knew the Hero of Time in the OoT past because in that age he didn't exist, and then time went on and eventually ALttP occurred, and still there was no legend of Link, the Hero of Time. In the alternate future of OoT, Link was well-known and that age carried on into TWW, where the legacy of Link still lived on. If that made sense to anyone, let me know. If not, I'll try to explain more.
TWW vs. ALttP
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, Oct 31 2004 08:22 PM
21 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 31 October 2004 - 09:49 PM
Well, yeah. It's kind of obvious that TWW takes place in the Adult timeline. Personally, I only put MM in the Child timeline, but some people have ALttP stem off of the Child as well.
#3
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Posted 31 October 2004 - 10:38 PM
The problem is that if you look at the Majora's Mask intro, there IS a legend of the Hero of Time preserved in the Royal Family.
Plus there have been various things from TWW which seem to allude to the events of Majora's Mask (for example, the Legend of Fairy which seems to refer to MM Tingle, and a creator comment from the Zelda no Video DVD which said maybe the backstory of TWW happened while Link was in Termina).
I think most of the evidence, though, points to TWW happening in the adult timeline of OoT.
Plus there have been various things from TWW which seem to allude to the events of Majora's Mask (for example, the Legend of Fairy which seems to refer to MM Tingle, and a creator comment from the Zelda no Video DVD which said maybe the backstory of TWW happened while Link was in Termina).
I think most of the evidence, though, points to TWW happening in the adult timeline of OoT.
#4
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Posted 31 October 2004 - 11:44 PM
The problem is that if you look at the Majora's Mask intro, there IS a legend of the Hero of Time preserved in the Royal Family.
Crap, I forgot about that.
#5
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Posted 01 November 2004 - 02:39 AM
Not to mention, in MM, Link still has the Ocarina of Time with him. It's one of the things he has to retrieve shortly after entering Termina.
#6
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Posted 01 November 2004 - 08:17 AM
I don't see what THAT has to do with anything, but meh. And what's this about alternate futures? There is one timeline, one reality. Uno. The future with Ganon WAS undone, unless the story they're telling in most all games is totally legend. How is there more than one reality? Zelda and the Sages pass down the story of what would have been, not what happened in an alternate future. And besides, even then, in Link's CHILD reality, there is a legend, and the Adult timeline can't exist WITHIN the child.
I think in MM, Link became a hero because he got rid of Ganon ahead of time and became a peacemaker. The Sages, having known and remembered all things from ALL timelines, and of course Link remembers his past, defenitely, not sure if Zelda does, but Link or her dreams possibly tell her, because she ends up passing it down. If you look at the dialogue in the games, this theory is supported pretty well. What do you think? Oh, and please explain how there is more than one reality, unless you believe, of course, that the story is all told as legend.
I think in MM, Link became a hero because he got rid of Ganon ahead of time and became a peacemaker. The Sages, having known and remembered all things from ALL timelines, and of course Link remembers his past, defenitely, not sure if Zelda does, but Link or her dreams possibly tell her, because she ends up passing it down. If you look at the dialogue in the games, this theory is supported pretty well. What do you think? Oh, and please explain how there is more than one reality, unless you believe, of course, that the story is all told as legend.
#7
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Posted 01 November 2004 - 09:52 AM
The Sages, having known and remembered all things from ALL timelines, and of course Link remembers his past, defenitely, not sure if Zelda does, but Link or her dreams possibly tell her, because she ends up passing it down
Uhhh..:
Zelda:
"And the other, who holds the Triforce of Wisdom...
is the seventh Sage, who is destined to be the leader of them all..."
#8
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Posted 01 November 2004 - 10:17 AM
I don't see what THAT has to do with anything, but meh. And what's this about alternate futures? There is one timeline, one reality. Uno. The future with Ganon WAS undone, unless the story they're telling in most all games is totally legend. How is there more than one reality? Zelda and the Sages pass down the story of what would have been, not what happened in an alternate future. And besides, even then, in Link's CHILD reality, there is a legend, and the Adult timeline can't exist WITHIN the child.
I think in MM, Link became a hero because he got rid of Ganon ahead of time and became a peacemaker. The Sages, having known and remembered all things from ALL timelines, and of course Link remembers his past, defenitely, not sure if Zelda does, but Link or her dreams possibly tell her, because she ends up passing it down. If you look at the dialogue in the games, this theory is supported pretty well. What do you think? Oh, and please explain how there is more than one reality, unless you believe, of course, that the story is all told as legend.
If the future with Ganon was completely undone and yet they continued to tell the story, wouldn't that make it legend? Nobody ever saw it, they would only have the word of the sages to back it up. And even then, if the sages in fact were still in existence once everything had been "undone" why in the world would anybody trust them on something that sounds so outlandish?
Another thing, if all that Link did was in the future was undone there wouldn't be any sages. He wouldn't have found them all and woken them up. Unless you simply argue that there was no time change, they didn't go back in time, everybody is just taken back seven years physically, and the landscape changes. Of course, I don't think that's quite possible.
There ends up being two timelines or "realities" as you put it, because how could the future that Link experienced simply be erased? We know it happend right? You don't even argue that it didn't. What you do in the future does not affect what happens in the past. However, assumedly since Link goes back in time at the end of OoT he has to figure out another way of beating Ganon, unless you argue that when he was sealed in the Future he was also sealed in the past. Or that Ganon kinda got locked out of Hyrule when Link came back the final time, in which case the adventure was simply pointless, as Link could have simply stopped at any time and Ganon still would have been trapped. Ah well, I don't know if I'm even answering any questions or arguing the correct points, so I"ll stop.
#9
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Posted 08 November 2004 - 05:03 PM
Keep in mind, guys, that split timelines have been all but confirmed. They're just fan speculation (albeit logical).
#10
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Posted 09 November 2004 - 12:59 AM
So are single, loop, and "non-related" timelines.
SoD
SoD
#11
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Posted 09 November 2004 - 06:26 PM
So, everything?
And yes, Black Hawk, you're a titch confused. I agree with you entirely. You're saying in a much more efficient way what I think.
And yes, Black Hawk, you're a titch confused. I agree with you entirely. You're saying in a much more efficient way what I think.
#12
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Posted 09 November 2004 - 06:44 PM
So, yes...no timeline theory has been actually confirmed.
#13
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Posted 09 November 2004 - 07:03 PM
Tri-Enforcer... no. By default, a video game follows a single timeline. It's up to the fans to disprove it with another theory (ex: multiple, split, etc.) and it'll only matter once it's been officially confirmed. Considering split timelines haven't disproved single timelines, and haven't been confirmed, the Zelda series follows a single timeline by default.
#14
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Posted 09 November 2004 - 09:00 PM
I see what you're saying, but as you said--it's not set in stone nor confirmed. We won't know until Nintendo reveals everything (whenever that is). So every theory is equally plausible and equally likely. In the meantime--we debate.
#15
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Posted 09 November 2004 - 09:23 PM
Yes, it's up to us fans to debate until it's been confirmed and canonized. But I also agree with Hero of Winds in the fact that almost by default they follow a single timeline. I mean, even Mario does even though every game has a different land, with different kingdoms, and different people. But meh, it doesn't matter. Nothing's confirmed and this is all in good fun.
PS, this is Hylian Diety. If you want the story for the name change, look in the commons. Call me HD if you still want though. :-P
PS, this is Hylian Diety. If you want the story for the name change, look in the commons. Call me HD if you still want though. :-P
#16
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 05:10 AM
I agree that a fantasy universe should be considered to be in a single timeline, unless there is evidence to the contrary. This is, after all, the standard way of creating a fantasy universe. However, I believe there is decent evidence for a split timeline interpretation within the Zelda games themselves. Mainly, the ending of OoT and the backstory of TWW. Given this in-game evidence, the split timeline theory is just as good an interpretation as the single timeline theory. Outside of that, the split timeline theory also happens to have creator support, depending on how you interpret Aunomua's words.
Given that the split timeline theory is PLAUSIBLE, and given our lack of knowledge of the intent of the creators, I would have to say that the whole issue is UNDECIDED. We cannot merely go with a single timeline theory "by default." That would only work if there were no evidence of split timelines at all, which was the case BEFORE TWW was released. After TWW, we cannot say for certain whether the single or split timeline theory is more likely to be true.
Given that the split timeline theory is PLAUSIBLE, and given our lack of knowledge of the intent of the creators, I would have to say that the whole issue is UNDECIDED. We cannot merely go with a single timeline theory "by default." That would only work if there were no evidence of split timelines at all, which was the case BEFORE TWW was released. After TWW, we cannot say for certain whether the single or split timeline theory is more likely to be true.
#17
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 10:24 AM
So basically Davo, you're saying that before some evidence of a split timeline were revealed...Zelda was single timeline by default. Now, that there are some evidence against it...it's no longer default...but it is still plausibe and likely as any other theory.
#18
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 01:41 PM
Yes, that is what I'm saying.
In my own personal opinion, though, I find the single timeline theory to be less plausible nowadays. This is because of the Aunoma quotes implying split timelines, and because the recent games don't seem to fit into any reasonably sane single timeline theory.
In my own personal opinion, though, I find the single timeline theory to be less plausible nowadays. This is because of the Aunoma quotes implying split timelines, and because the recent games don't seem to fit into any reasonably sane single timeline theory.
#19
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 04:45 PM
Two distinct ways of looking the timeline possibilities are those given in the Terminator films. In the first two movies the characters believed that with their knowledge of the what would happen they could change/influence the events that would lead to the apocalyptic future, and thus prevent it from happening. In the third film the view given is that whatever the characters try to do the future will happen as it does because it already has.
Applied to the Zelda games you could either have a single timeline where the OoT past happens, then the events of MM, then the adult timeline of OoT followed by the other games. Alternatively you could have two different timelines, one following the OoT child section, and one the adult.
Personally I prefer the idea of a single timeline with all of the games events happening in it, though many people who prefer single timelines would say that the events of the adult Link in OoT never happen. I dislike this concept as effectively the timeline has been split, even if you only place the OoT future in the alternate timeline.
Applied to the Zelda games you could either have a single timeline where the OoT past happens, then the events of MM, then the adult timeline of OoT followed by the other games. Alternatively you could have two different timelines, one following the OoT child section, and one the adult.
Personally I prefer the idea of a single timeline with all of the games events happening in it, though many people who prefer single timelines would say that the events of the adult Link in OoT never happen. I dislike this concept as effectively the timeline has been split, even if you only place the OoT future in the alternate timeline.
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 05:04 PM
Personally I prefer the idea of a single timeline with all of the games events happening in it, though many people who prefer single timelines would say that the events of the adult Link in OoT never happen. I dislike this concept as effectively the timeline has been split, even if you only place the OoT future in the alternate timeline.
That's what I belived happened, but I do believe other games that we know of (TWW?) may have taken place on the timeline with the adult Link future.
#21
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Posted 10 November 2004 - 08:03 PM
Or maybe not. Maybe the Sages and Zelda passed down Link's would-be tale as they said they would. We already know he becomes famous for penting up Ganon, (In MM) ahead of time, probably not as a warrior, but as an intuitive peacemaker. Let's look at the discrepancies for a minute. It becomes obvious that the would-be story of Adult Link's heroism was passed down, so could it have been passed down without it actually happening?
Yes. As a faulty legend.
"That's dumb. The people of Hyrule wouldn't believe that if it didn't actually happen to them!" Point taken. But it could've been just a campfire story if you will. Destined to be a GREAT legend. Now far far into the future, when Link has voyaged to Termina, come back, become an old fogey and died, (again, more of my speculation,) "Ganon crawled from the depths of the earth, eager to resume his dark designs." Suppose this was years and years and YEARS after OoT and MM events. That hip legend's been floating around for a very long time now! The people have to turn to someone! "There really is a hero!" they think. After all, no one thought there was a big Ganon threat. They pray. No help comes. Why?
Like I said, it's my opinion that by this time Link is a dead washed-up old fogey. In any case, even if he was REALLY REALLY old, he wouldn't have his Triforce of Courage. It snapped off when he hit Termina. You know the rest of the story. Hyrule goes blub blub blub, the people in the future all but forget about, except...except for that oh so popular legend, which is now a mix of fact and fiction.
THEY think the hero was a little boy and the evil one was a big fat pig-demon. Partly true, partly not. Link sealed Ganon away in the corrected child timeline ahead of time when he returned to Zelda, then left for Termina. Obviously, this bit of history got mishmashed with the legend. I mean, even if the legend got very twisted, how would those folks know ANYTHING of a heroic youth if, in the supposed, "alternate timeline," there was no young boy at all.
Just my theories, there is one timeline. The legend is the thing that spans all dimensions here.
Yes. As a faulty legend.
"That's dumb. The people of Hyrule wouldn't believe that if it didn't actually happen to them!" Point taken. But it could've been just a campfire story if you will. Destined to be a GREAT legend. Now far far into the future, when Link has voyaged to Termina, come back, become an old fogey and died, (again, more of my speculation,) "Ganon crawled from the depths of the earth, eager to resume his dark designs." Suppose this was years and years and YEARS after OoT and MM events. That hip legend's been floating around for a very long time now! The people have to turn to someone! "There really is a hero!" they think. After all, no one thought there was a big Ganon threat. They pray. No help comes. Why?
Like I said, it's my opinion that by this time Link is a dead washed-up old fogey. In any case, even if he was REALLY REALLY old, he wouldn't have his Triforce of Courage. It snapped off when he hit Termina. You know the rest of the story. Hyrule goes blub blub blub, the people in the future all but forget about, except...except for that oh so popular legend, which is now a mix of fact and fiction.
THEY think the hero was a little boy and the evil one was a big fat pig-demon. Partly true, partly not. Link sealed Ganon away in the corrected child timeline ahead of time when he returned to Zelda, then left for Termina. Obviously, this bit of history got mishmashed with the legend. I mean, even if the legend got very twisted, how would those folks know ANYTHING of a heroic youth if, in the supposed, "alternate timeline," there was no young boy at all.
Just my theories, there is one timeline. The legend is the thing that spans all dimensions here.
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Posted 11 November 2004 - 01:02 PM
In the MM backstory it only mentions the story is passed down within the Royal Family. We all know the Royal Family is renowned for keeping secrets from the populace...just think of the Triforce or the sleeping princess story. We know fromIf the ToC broke to pieces when Link went to Termina, then why didn't he regain them once he returned to Hyrule? He still returned to Hyrule as young boy....
