227 replies to this topic

[Raien]

I concur with spunky-monkey, although with a different basis. The fact that OoT was such a critical and commercial success makes it evident that the far majority of players did not consider the series stagnant at that time. And individual subjectivity falls prey to popular opinion when discussing general statements such as the stagnation of a series. On the other hand, not only did the stagnation argument come into prominence during TP, but it was the first time for Zelda that a few prominent reviewers made that assertion, and it was the first time that Nintendo vocally recognised the stagnation argument. TP is clearly responsible for the current position the majority takes with Zelda.

[Arturo]

Trains in Zelda is utter bullshit regardless of what you claim, the technological jump is too great. Or are you going to fall back on the infallible "LOLZ TEH UBER MAGIC PWNS ALL NOOB!" argument?

I'd like to remind everyone that Zelda is a videogame, and as such, it doesn't need to abide the laws of real world.


You might think that the train doesn't fit with the Zelda "essence", and I might agree. But your technological argument is stupid.

[avroillusion]

I remember that one of the things that first drew me to the series was that the Zelda world featured combinations of both medieval, modern, eastern and western influences. Alongside the traditional fantasy elements there were things like cameras, steam powered ships and large cannons/gunpowder. It doesn't draw its inspiration from one particular genre or time period.

It may merely be that this game takes place during a time when an Industrial Revolution is just beginning. The Zelda timeline encompasses a large amount of time. I also doubt that the minds behind Zelda are historical buffs.

The Tower of the Gods is my favourite dungeon from the Wind Waker due to the technological elements. I personally thought they were insinuating that the Gods may have merely been a technologically advanced race or even aliens. (>~<);

[Psytronic]

Psytronic, without the revolutionary Ocarina you have no 3-D Zelda and therefore its successors Majora through to Twilight might never have been conceived either.

That is irrelevant regarding overall gameplay concepts and elements. A re-use of prior concepts as a crutch to recreating essentially the same game in 3D does not equal an entirely new concept.

I am using the word stagnant in its proper context: It failed to be original. Perpetuation of sameness. The whole 3D world element does not really lead to much differentiation between 2D Zelda and 3D Zelda. All it changes overall are the camera perspectives. The 2D Zelda games are still represented with 3-dimensional logic.

Individual perceptions might be irrelevent to some, but I don't really give a damn about that. I have my own preferences regarding the series, and I can honestly say that Twilight Princess was the first 3D Zelda game to deliver the goods in my book. Too bad for the misplaced priorities of the mainstream that they can't appreciate a fantastic game for being the superior work that it is.

Absolute and bloody nonsense, Hyrule needs to have advanced ferrous alloys/steel-making processes in order for railways to operate as frequently as ST depicts. Richard Trevithick's locomotive couldn't run more than several times back in 1804 because it was simply too heavy for the cast iron rails to support, they shattered under the stress. Hyrule would require wrought iron or mild steel which appeared later.

Such processes couldn't be properly realized for railway uses until 1860s during the Industrial Revolution with Henry Cort's puddling furnace (a variety of the reverberatory furnace), in order to remove the various impurities in the metal.

Leonardo Da Vinci didn't understand metallurgy well enough to design n' build fully functional railways, or the importance of low-carbon steel for that matter.

Trains in Zelda is utter bullshit regardless of what you claim, the technological jump is too great. Or are you going to fall back on the infallible "LOLZ TEH UBER MAGIC PWNS ALL NOOB!" argument?

Congratulations, you're educated in the history of metallurgy. I was talking about the principles of complex machinery and locomotion, especially considering the history of man's understanding. The practice of applying appropriate metals is an altogether different subject, although you have literally no reason to believe that advanced metallurgy cannot exist in the world of this new Zelda game. But the metallurgy argument is relatively off subject considering this game- if you'll cast a glance back at the screencaps, you'll see that this machine is largely wooden, while the tracks are obviously not a traditional iron or steel. It is quite likely that Link will not require any fuel for the device, considering the video clip. Additionally, the engine is not pulling a load.

[SOAP]

I never personally viewed the Tower of the Gods as cyberpunk, but I can definitely see how you'd make the argument. But the way I see it, the only difference between a golem and a robot is the world he lives in.

It's quite clearly technological. Even if it seems magical from perspective of people like TWW Link who probably aren't used to seeing such high level of technology. Considering it is the Tower of the Gods, it makes me wonder if Selena wasn't up to something with her theory about aliens manipulating Hyrule's development.

Anyway, for pure Swords and Sorcery, it's probably only the first 3; and maybe Minish Cap, FSA, and TP. I guess I don't have every detail memorized.

Are you serious? TP was borderline steampunk/western to the point I was surprised *it* didn't have trains... or guns. And the Twilight realm is another example of clearly advanced cyberpunk technology that gets passed off as magic. TP is pretty much a chimera of different genres and cultural references. It even has sumo wrestling!

TMC had robots. Maybe not called such and the circuitry one but they were mechanical. FSA wasn't purely sword and sorcery. It has it's anachronisms as well. That leaves you with the first three games out of 15. Even if I give you TMC and FSA, that's still five games out of ten.

And I wasn't really offended SteveT. I was just pointing out that it's unfair to say taht Zelda series must be a certain way and can never change, especially when it has in fact been changing, even if subtly. People bemoan Link on a train because it disrupts some notion that the Zelda series MUST be a medieval fantasy but he uses a camera in past games just as LA, MM, and TWW and as far as I know, no one has ever batted an eyelid over that. Anachronisms have always been thrown in for fun and occasionally have been used as items (such as the aformentioned Pictobox). And Link has been on a steamboat before so it's not the first time an anachronism has been used as a vehicle. To me it just seems people are cherry picking by making a big stink about the train not fitting their notion of whta Hyrule's technological level should be (Because Huyrule is obviously Earth and must follow Earths' history). Okay maybe I'm being a little too sarcastic here but it's not you specifically that's annoying me it's the idea that Zelda must be one way and one way only. I never liked purists.

I disagree. What has making the series stagnate is the regurgitation of the "Stop Ganon from getting the Triforce and save Zelda along the way" story. The Quest for the Master Sword, dungeons built around using the item that you find inside (and never use again), shooting arrows at switches and pushing blocks...

Even if Zelda were suddenly a Crime Noir game, I'd still be playing on autopilot.

You have a point there. But I still would like some see the Zelda series continue to evolve, both aesthetically and gameplaywise.

Edited by SOAP, 07 April 2009 - 03:12 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

You might think that the train doesn't fit with the Zelda "essence", and I might agree. But your technological argument is stupid.

Thanks for stating the obvious whilst blissfully ignoring how incompatible a locomotive is with a fantasy world such as Zelda.

Arturo, I'm perfectly aware that technology is second only to the geography clause in its sheer idiocy - you don't need to remind me.

I am using the word stagnant in its proper context: It failed to be original. Perpetuation of sameness. The whole 3D world element does not really lead to much differentiation between 2D Zelda and 3D Zelda. All it changes overall are the camera perspectives. The 2D Zelda games are still represented with 3-dimensional logic.

Again, stop talking rubbish please. You can't call such an influential game like Ocarina "unoriginal" without losing your own credibility in the process.

Individual perceptions might be irrelevent to some, but I don't really give a damn about that. I have my own preferences regarding the series, and I can honestly say that Twilight Princess was the first 3D Zelda game to deliver the goods in my book. Too bad for the misplaced priorities of the mainstream that they can't appreciate a fantastic game for being the superior work that it is.

You sound just like the misguided fools who watched the Alien 3 movie before Alien & Aliens then praised it for being better than its predecessors simply because they watched them, in that order.

But the metallurgy argument is relatively off subject considering this game- if you'll cast a glance back at the screencaps, you'll see that this machine is largely wooden, while the tracks are obviously not a traditional iron or steel.

Richard Trevithick's wooden locomotive was also too heavy for the cast iron rails to withstand. You cannot build such a light locomotive that the cast iron rails could feasibly support it otherwise it'd have very poor adhesion and thereby lack efficiency to run properly.

In a nutshell: the train idea is incompatible with the Zelda fantasy-orientated world.

Edited by spunky-monkey, 07 April 2009 - 01:46 PM.

[Selena]

Again, stop talking rubbish please. You can't call such an influential game like Ocarina "unoriginal" without losing your own credibility in the process.

Calling it entirely unoriginal, perhaps. But any way you twist it, gathering three trinkets to get the Master Sword and then having to go around gathering other useless trinkets in order to get to the end boss is redundant.

In a nutshell: the train idea is incompatible with the Zelda fantasy-orientated world.

Neon lights, a jukebox, and a modern-ish bowling alley in Ocarina. Also, alien abductions in Majora's Mask. Zelda's not a realistic game, and it has often broken its own context for the sake of humor or atmosphere, so trying to claim that the choo-choo looks out of place is a bit odd. The train is actually not that big of a leap compared to some other things that have featured in games, and there was never such outcry about those. Which makes it seems like "maintaining thematic accuracy" only seems to (conveniently) come into play when people happen to not like a concept and are looking for any reason to get rid of it.

That said, remember that Nintendo has a habit of making things sound and look sucktacular... only to have them turn out fun. Everyone made fun of Celda, but many ended up liking it. Everyone made fun of the name "Wii" and thought it was ridiculous. Now everyone loves it.

[SOAP]

In a nutshell: the train idea is incompatible with the Zelda fantasy-orientated world.

Keyword here being fantasy. As in their technological development doesn't necessarily have to follow real world history... or logic. As been stated a bazillion times before by myself and others, anachronisms have have always been thrown in Zelda games for fun, often for no rhyme or reason. Hyrule isn't Earth. We don't know what level technology their capable of and considering the Tower of the Gods having circuitry, it's safe to assume that Hylians were once very advanced or at least some other race that existed before them. The train could be explained away as Hyruleans rediscovering ancient technology from a previous era when Hyrule was more advanced.

Edited by SOAP, 07 April 2009 - 03:00 PM.

[Raien]

One thing that has to be considered is the context in which this "modern" technology has been placed. Aside from the debatable Tower of the Gods example, most other uses have been entirely peripheral. They've appeared in only single environments, sometimes serving comic effect, like the general store in Twilight Princess. This is a different context to ST's train, which is fundamental to both the game and its advertising. The train changes the fantasy feeling much more than a single neon light in a random part of OoT does.

[Duke Serkol]

Considering it is the Tower of the Gods, it makes me wonder if Selena wasn't up to something with her theory about aliens manipulating Hyrule's development.

I would have to say yes, considering it was me who told her that this was clearly the implication when TWW came out, that the Gods were in fact aliens.
Evidence to this was that the statues of the goddesses look like Pikmins before you place the pearl and that we have a robotic guardian rather than something animated by gods as they normally would.

However, I believe that to have been retconned by Minish Cap. I mean yes, it is the twoer of the gods, but that doesn't necessarily mean the gods built it. They may have entrusted this task to the Wind Tribe and the Minish (the latter would explain the statues, the former Godhan's similarity with Mazaal)

it's safe to assume that Hylians were once very advanced or at least some other race that existed before them. The train could be explained away as Hyruleans rediscovering ancient technology from a previous era when Hyrule was more advanced.

Actually that could work... but I'm very skeptical about the game providing any such explanation
And I would say the technology would need to be passed on to them directly with that purpose, because reverse engineering a technology of which we never saw any trace sounds difficult to believe.

[Arturo]

You might think that the train doesn't fit with the Zelda "essence", and I might agree. But your technological argument is stupid.

Thanks for stating the obvious whilst blissfully ignoring how incompatible a locomotive is with a fantasy world such as Zelda.

Arturo, I'm perfectly aware that technology is second only to the geography clause in its sheer idiocy - you don't need to remind me.

You clearly have never visited Clock Town in MM. That's incompatibility with a medieval fantasy world, not a stupid train of which we know absolutely nothing.

Now, relax, wait until you play the game, or we see something more than a trailer, and stop talking nonsense about games you hardly now anything about.

[Selena]

One thing that has to be considered is the context in which this "modern" technology has been placed. Aside from the debatable Tower of the Gods example, most other uses have been entirely peripheral. They've appeared in only single environments, sometimes serving comic effect, like the general store in Twilight Princess. This is a different context to ST's train, which is fundamental to both the game and its advertising. The train changes the fantasy feeling much more than a single neon light in a random part of OoT does.

The little details are just as important as the big picture. The little details help make up the big picture, after all. It doesn't matter whether a break in the theme and atmosphere occurs on a small or large scale - it's still a break in the theme. The neon lights and bowling alley aren't important, but Hyrule still has them. "Context" doesn't wish them out of existence, and it certainly doesn't give people an excuse to ignore their presence. They're in the game. They're canon. Either way you cut it, the train is not the most advanced piece of technology we've seen in the Zelda universe. And that's without even knowing when Spirit Tracks is even set or how big of a role the train will have.

All this talk about breaking away from the 'theme' of Zelda is a bit misplaced, I think. And I finally figured out a decent way to explain myself.



* The movie Legend is a sword & sorcery fantasy set during the middle ages. For however fictional and fantastic the movie is, it doesn't break away from that sort of setting.

* The Legend of Zelda is fantasy like "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys" or "Xena: Warrior Princess." It is set in a particular era, but the creators will break the setting for the sake of humor, action, or pure enjoyment. If you ever watched Herc or Xena while growing up, you know they primarily take place in Greece. But on a semi-frequent basis, history is completely thrown out of the window for the sake of the show. Neither show even tried to be historically accurate or even make logical sense - they just tried to be entertaining. Advanced technology and modern pop culture were fairly common, even though they clashed with the default setting. But it worked, because they were implemented fairly well and the shows never took themselves all that seriously to begin with.


Zelda has been that way for a while. Advanced technology has made various appearances, as have pop culture references. And, somewhat like the above two example, it doesn't take itself too seriously. It's actually the storyliners and hardcore fanatics that take things far too seriously. Especially when you consider that people in our age group probably aren't Nintendo's target audience for new games, and that their real target audience probably isn't too worried about the presence of a train in what otherwise appears to be a normal enough looking Zelda title.

Maybe everybody could stand to lighten up about the franchise - it could be a sign that you've been mulling over the likely-non-existent timeline for far too long. And again, it's a DS Zelda title. The handhelds are seldom epic, and are far more prone to quirky things than the big console games are. At least since the Oracles were released, and even they were sort of cheesy when compared to ALttP or OoT.

[Psytronic]

So, Spunky Monkey, tell me exactly how many times your Zelda games have had to make perfect physical sense. I'd really love to know.

And if you don't get my problem with Ocarina, I'll more than happily spell it out for you: Too bland. They take what could've been a fantastic followup to explain the beginning of Zelda III, and give us basically a hacked up Link to the Past - minus the adventure. The "overworld" is a big empty room. The forest is a bunch of canyons. Zora's Doman? Yeah, great, follow the creek upstream. Is there a passage behind the waterfall? Oh sure, never saw that coming. Maybe it was a bit less obvious in LttP, when there were plenty of waterfalls. What items do you get? Oh, I dunno. Maybe a hookshot. How about a boomerang. HEY WHAT IF YOU GET AN ITEM THAT LETS YOU LIFT SOME BIG ROCKS. Where'd they get all that from? Must've been totally original. OH OH, YOU KNOW WHAT THIS GAME DOES BETTER THAN LTTP? IT HAS AN ANNOYING SHRIEKING 10 YEAR OLD BET LTTP NEVER HAD THAT.

You sound just like a misguided fool who played Zelda 4 before Zelda 1-3, and then praised it for being better than its predecessors. Simply because you played them in that order.

*EDIT: I'm so good at rushing off to work and leaving sentences incomplete, WOO!

Edited by Psytronic, 08 April 2009 - 08:05 AM.

[SOAP]

Considering it is the Tower of the Gods, it makes me wonder if Selena wasn't up to something with her theory about aliens manipulating Hyrule's development.

I would have to say yes, considering it was me who told her that this was clearly the implication when TWW came out, that the Gods were in fact aliens.
Evidence to this was that the statues of the goddesses look like Pikmins before you place the pearl and that we have a robotic guardian rather than something animated by gods as they normally would.

However, I believe that to have been retconned by Minish Cap. I mean yes, it is the twoer of the gods, but that doesn't necessarily mean the gods built it. They may have entrusted this task to the Wind Tribe and the Minish (the latter would explain the statues, the former Godhan's similarity with Mazaal)

The Wind Tribe seems to be like the Atlanteans of the Zeldaverse. Except instead of sinking into the ocean, their city ascended into the sky. Actually, I'd say their more like Laputa.

I wouldn't throw out the alien theory just yet though, since the oocca aren't that far off from being alien/cuccos hybrids.

[vodkamaru]

First a boat and now a train? How sad... I'm holding out for a space rocket myself.

[Duke Serkol]

The Wind Tribe seems to be like the Atlanteans of the Zeldaverse. Except instead of sinking into the ocean, their city ascended into the sky. Actually, I'd say their more like Laputa.

Yup, but with incan/mayan (sorry, can't really tell) architecture.

I wouldn't throw out the alien theory just yet though, since the oocca aren't that far off from being alien/cuccos hybrids.

I would, because I don't think something like the Triforce makes much sense with science... and even if it could, I wouldn't want it to.

[spunky-monkey]

Neon lights, a jukebox, and a modern-ish bowling alley in Ocarina. Also, alien abductions in Majora's Mask. Zelda's not a realistic game, and it has often broken its own context for the sake of humor or atmosphere, so trying to claim that the choo-choo looks out of place is a bit odd. The train is actually not that big of a leap compared to some other things that have featured in games, and there was never such outcry about those.

As Raien said these elements were all comical and cryptic in nature and never taken seriously by the fans, now we have a train of all things as the predominant gimmicky feature which shatters the fantasy illusion; the equivalent of mixing oil and water, you may like them separately, but see how well they get along together.

That said, remember that Nintendo has a habit of making things sound and look sucktacular... only to have them turn out fun. Everyone made fun of Celda, but many ended up liking it. Everyone made fun of the name "Wii" and thought it was ridiculous. Now everyone loves it.

How many is "many" Selena? Evidentially not quite as many as those who bought Ocarina, so unfortunately I've no choice but to assume those "many" who enjoyed it were either loyalists or casual gamers.

You clearly have never visited Clock Town in MM. That's incompatibility with a medieval fantasy world, not a stupid train of which we know absolutely nothing.

Now, relax, wait until you play the game, or we see something more than a trailer, and stop talking nonsense about games you hardly now anything about.

The whole *parallel world to Hyrule* canonical fact notwithstanding, since clock towers and other methods of telling time predate steam locomotives Arturo, and those are just ones with faces - arguably Termina's water-powered clock tower is actually based on a much older Bell Tower design because it doesn't resemble any kind of real-world clock system. It in fact it's not very much different from the Tower of Winds or horologion due to its unique combination of dials.

And you're really barking up the wrong tree if you think I'd spend money on this steaming pile of...

And if you don't get my problem with Ocarina, I'll more than happily spell it out for you: Too bland.

You've got this wonderful ability to extract words from the dictionary, regurgitate them, and not have the slightest clue what you've just said. Your criticism and verbosity stems from the fact that you fail to appreciate Ocarina for the landmark in gaming that it was, and nothing else. Admit that and stop bashing a game for faults that don't exist, otherwise you're simply trolling at the end of the day.

You sound just like a misguided fool who played Zelda 4 before Zelda 1-3, and then praised it for being better than its predecessors. Simply because you played them in that order.

Oh real mature, flip my observation right back at me. Afraid you're starting to see the overbearing ignorance in your posts yet?

[Selena]

You've got this wonderful ability to extract words from the dictionary, regurgitate them, and not have the slightest clue what you've just said. Your criticism and verbosity stems from the fact that you fail to appreciate Ocarina for the landmark in gaming that it was, and nothing else. Admit that and stop bashing a game for faults that don't exist, otherwise you're simply trolling at the end of the day.

...

Oh real mature, flip my observation right back at me. Afraid you're starting to see the overbearing ignorance in your posts yet?

Actually, he's not being any more rude or abrasive than you usually are, spunky. You both should start acting more civil. This sort of attitude creeps out on a frequent enough basis. It needs to stop.

How many is "many" Selena? Evidentially not quite as many as those who bought Ocarina, so unfortunately I've no choice but to assume those "many" who enjoyed it were either loyalists or casual gamers.

This tactic was tried earlier in the thread, but it doesn't work. Ocarina's sales figures (7+ million) are not normal for the Zelda franchise. That was an unnatural spike, much like with Final Fantasy 7 compared to the rest of its franchise. The regular number of copies sold for a major Zelda title is about 4 million. The Wind Waker sold 4.5 million copies and earned very good reviews, making it about even with A Link to the Past in terms of sales and popularity. You can't use Ocarina's sales as a solid reference - its sales were practically double the average for the rest of the franchise. Unless, I suppose, you want to argue that almost every game in the franchise was enjoyed only by loyalists and casual gamers. Which requires more stretching than advanced yoga.

As Raien said these elements were all comical and cryptic in nature and never taken seriously by the fans, now we have a train of all things as the predominant gimmicky feature which shatters the fantasy illusion; the equivalent of mixing oil and water, you may like them separately, but see how well they get along together.

The little details are just as important as the big picture. The little details help make up the big picture, after all. It doesn't matter whether a break in the theme and atmosphere occurs on a small or large scale - it's still a break in the theme. The neon lights and bowling alley aren't important, but Hyrule still has them. "Context" doesn't wish them out of existence, and it certainly doesn't give people an excuse to ignore their presence. They're in the game. They're canon. Either way you cut it, the train is not the most advanced piece of technology we've seen in the Zelda universe. And that's without even knowing when Spirit Tracks is even set or how big of a role the train will have.

All this talk about breaking away from the 'theme' of Zelda is a bit misplaced, I think. And I finally figured out a decent way to explain myself.



* The movie Legend is a sword & sorcery fantasy set during the middle ages. For however fictional and fantastic the movie is, it doesn't break away from that sort of setting.

* The Legend of Zelda is fantasy like "Hercules: The Legendary Journeys" or "Xena: Warrior Princess." It is set in a particular era, but the creators will break the setting for the sake of humor, action, or pure enjoyment. If you ever watched Herc or Xena while growing up, you know they primarily take place in Greece. But on a semi-frequent basis, history is completely thrown out of the window for the sake of the show. Neither show even tried to be historically accurate or even make logical sense - they just tried to be entertaining. Advanced technology and modern pop culture were fairly common, even though they clashed with the default setting. But it worked, because they were implemented fairly well and the shows never took themselves all that seriously to begin with.


Zelda has been that way for a while. Advanced technology has made various appearances, as have pop culture references. And, somewhat like the above two example, it doesn't take itself too seriously. It's actually the storyliners and hardcore fanatics that take things far too seriously. Especially when you consider that people in our age group probably aren't Nintendo's target audience for new games, and that their real target audience probably isn't too worried about the presence of a train in what otherwise appears to be a normal enough looking Zelda title.

Maybe everybody could stand to lighten up about the franchise - it could be a sign that you've been mulling over the likely-non-existent timeline for far too long. And again, it's a DS Zelda title. The handhelds are seldom epic, and are far more prone to quirky things than the big console games are. At least since the Oracles were released, and even they were sort of cheesy when compared to ALttP or OoT.

[Raien]

Selena, your argument about context only appears to refer to canoninity, not atmosphere. If you make a game entirely medieval fantasy except for one particular scene, then that scene is not going to change the general atmosphere. Just like if you have one well-lit room in a Resident Evil game, it isn't going to make the rest of the game less dark and scary.

[spunky-monkey]

Actually, he's not being any more rude or abrasive than you usually are, spunky. You both should start acting more civil. This sort of attitude creeps out on a frequent enough basis. It needs to stop.

I interpreted the "Be Nice!" rule as be as nice as you possibly can be considering how n00bish people act and/or however vehemently you may hate the subject matter at hand.

*sigh* But I guess that's what rules are for, to restrict, remove absolutes, and thereby prevent fun. Sorry but I'm not sheepish and I speak what's on my mind even if it gets me into trouble.

This tactic was tried earlier in the thread, but it doesn't work. Ocarina's sales figures (7+ million) are not normal for the Zelda franchise. That was an unnatural spike, much like with Final Fantasy 7 compared to the rest of its franchise.

Oh that's hardly fair Selena, you can't just proceed to dismiss the whole point and evidence I presented as an anomaly.

[Alardonin]

Hmm... well, I don't know what to think. It will depend on how the integration of the train will work. I agree with the people in the thread that find the situation to be a little too early to tell. While I do think that people are bitching about it to an unnecessary degree, I still somewhat agree with their points(not all tied to the train thingy).

I don't agree with the saying that the story is the only thing Zelda needs a revamp on, though I definitely agree that such a change is needed despite the fact that I still continue to enjoy that part of the game to this day, since I find that its simplicity works, in comparison to many other "epic" games out there, that take themselves too seriously only to fall on their arse completely when it comes to overall quality in storytelling(with a few exceptions of course).

While I do agree that the gameplay is fine, if not one of the best the genre has to offer, the Zelda series are very much starting to suffer from what I like to call gameplay cliché. By that I mean that most experienced players in the series, already know how most of the game will play out--either in how the game will develop as a whole(storyline or not) or little things in the design of the game, like how you enter a room in a dungeon, and by then you probably already know what to do. It's just too much familiarity at this point from where I'm standing. Would I then, have liked to see in that trailer some ideas that go beyond the simple integration of a train? Sure. But then again, I know next to nothing about it at the moment, and to expect some major changes in the series would be a little foolish, since such would proceed to alienate Zelda fans, to a point where making an entirely new series would be the best option. But you never know, this game may have a few interesting takes on it, or hell the same thing might be said of the next Zelda for the Wii.

My take on it? Wait it out. People have shown their disappointment with Nintendo considerably over the years, this is nothing new. That's what happens when you're in possession of a series that has been loved for decades. If Nintendo does continue to stick with the old, like some people are starting to feel that they are, there is always an alternative... To be frank, in my situation, I don't mind at all, since I still do enjoy the series and find them to have a sort of uniqueness in the medium. Doesn't mean of course that I will blindly spend my money on everything Nintendo decides to do with their series.

Moving on to the train issue... I agree with the point that the series have seen a hell of a lot worse than this. While I can understand some of the complainers points, I think that you guys are taking it to the next level. But hell, to show your malcontent is allowed I think. Not to mention that this particular backlash is at least somewhat understandable, especially in comparison to examples like the whole link is left handed furor.

[Showsni]

You might think that the train doesn't fit with the Zelda "essence", and I might agree. But your technological argument is stupid.

Thanks for stating the obvious whilst blissfully ignoring how incompatible a locomotive is with a fantasy world such as Zelda.

Arturo, I'm perfectly aware that technology is second only to the geography clause in its sheer idiocy - you don't need to remind me.

You clearly have never visited Clock Town in MM. That's incompatibility with a medieval fantasy world, not a stupid train of which we know absolutely nothing.

Not really; clocks have been around for centuries. For example, this:

is a model of an eleventh century clock tower driven by a large waterwheel, chain drive and escapement mechanism. Sound familiar?

Although, yeah, nodding cows are a more modern invention. And even we don't have talking postboxes yet.

[Arturo]

You clearly have never visited Clock Town in MM. That's incompatibility with a medieval fantasy world, not a stupid train of which we know absolutely nothing.

Now, relax, wait until you play the game, or we see something more than a trailer, and stop talking nonsense about games you hardly now anything about.

The whole *parallel world to Hyrule* canonical fact notwithstanding, since clock towers and other methods of telling time predate steam locomotives Arturo, and those are just ones with faces - arguably Termina's water-powered clock tower is actually based on a much older Bell Tower design because it doesn't resemble any kind of real-world clock system. It in fact it's not very much different from the Tower of Winds or horologion due to its unique combination of dials.

Way to miss the point. I don't care whether the Clock is mechanical, magical, medieval or neo-baroque. What I care about is what we see around the clock: a (sort of) modern society. To be fair, there's no medieval-phantasy atmosphere in the whole game, and neither there is in any of the games afterwards.

And you're really barking up the wrong tree if you think I'd spend money on this steaming pile of...

I love your way of judging things from your ignorance. You could at least wait to see more trailers, read reviews, play someone else's game, etc, instead of whining continually about everything.

I also love the way you act as if you were a hero just because of your amazing ability to make a mountain out of a grain of sand.

Edited by Arturo, 08 April 2009 - 07:27 PM.

[Toan]

Actually, he's not being any more rude or abrasive than you usually are, spunky. You both should start acting more civil. This sort of attitude creeps out on a frequent enough basis. It needs to stop.

I interpreted the "Be Nice!" rule as be as nice as you possibly can be considering how n00bish people act and/or however vehemently you may hate the subject matter at hand.

*sigh* But I guess that's what rules are for, to restrict, remove absolutes, and thereby prevent fun. Sorry but I'm not sheepish and I speak what's on my mind even if it gets me into trouble.

Since Selena's words of wisdom obviously didn't get the point across, allow me to be a bit more direct:

1. No. Rules have never and will never be "open for interpretation" - it's be nice or be gone. If you think it's "sheepish" (whether you mean that by embarrassing, to be meek, or to follow blindly - I'm inclined to think the latter) to say "what's on [your] mind even if it gets you into trouble", then guess what - your stay here will be a short one.

2. Rules have never and will never be to "prevent fun" - on the very contrary, our rules exist to keep a civil taste on our forums to encourage fun and discourage unruly conduct. If, again, you think following said rules makes you a sheep, then go ahead and be the wolf in sheep's clothing - it'll only get you slaughtered.

[Psytronic]

shatters the fantasy illusion

Too much unrealistic fantasy in your unrealistic fantasy, eh? Starts making it seem... Unrealistic?

You've got this wonderful ability to extract words from the dictionary, regurgitate them, and not have the slightest clue what you've just said. Your criticism and verbosity stems from the fact that you fail to appreciate Ocarina for the landmark in gaming that it was, and nothing else. Admit that and stop bashing a game for faults that don't exist, otherwise you're simply trolling at the end of the day.

Sounds like you haven't got a single word to defend it. Is it frustrating to be unable to bully someone else into agreeing with you? I would suggest that you absolutely fail to recognize that the Zelda series has been unoriginal for years, and Twilight is the only successful attempt to translate a game so seamless as LttP into 3D. Admit that and stop sniveling that I could possibly have a different opinion from you.

Oh real mature, flip my observation right back at me. Afraid you're starting to see the overbearing ignorance in your posts yet?

Since you're so certain I'm just pulling words out of the dictionary, here's a fantastic word to help you appreciate the situation: Irony. You're full of it.
Oh, I can clearly see a lot of overbearing self-absorbtion as well as selective thinking in your posts. I'm not so naive to think I'm completely immune to the common failings of mankind, but I am at least vaguely objective.

Actually, he's not being any more rude or abrasive than you usually are, spunky. You both should start acting more civil. This sort of attitude creeps out on a frequent enough basis. It needs to stop.

I'm sorry if I've gone and stepped on anyone's toes. I am just responding in kind. :/

Edited by Psytronic, 08 April 2009 - 10:47 PM.

[Selena]

I'm sorry if I've gone and stepped on anyone's toes. I am just responding in kind. :/

Well, responding in kind, at least like that, can get you into an equal amount of trouble. So please avoid it, even if someone is making you angry.

Oh that's hardly fair Selena, you can't just proceed to dismiss the whole point and evidence I presented as an anomaly.

Raien and I had this sort of discussion a few pages back. Often, though not always, the first 3D game in an existing franchise gets a huge spike in sales. Sometimes double the number of the predecessor. After the "wow!" factor has run its course, the sales return to normal. Here are the figures for Zelda and a few other series. Star Fox is included, because while the first game was technically 3D, it was Star Fox 64 that really made use of a genuinely 3D environment.

* A Link to the Past (4.5 million) > Ocarina of Time (7.6 million) > Majora's Mask (3.3 million) > The Wind Waker (4.5 million) > Twilight Princess (5 million)
* Super Metroid (1.4 million) > Metroid Prime (2.8 million) > Metroid Prime 2 (1.2 million) > Metroid Prime 3 (1.5 million)
* Final Fantasy VI (3.4 million) > Final Fantasy VII (9.7 million) > Final Fantasy VIII (7.8 million) > Final Fantasy IX (5.8 million) > FFX (7 million) > FFXII (5 million)
* Star Fox (2.9 million) > Star Fox 64 (4 million) > Star Fox Adventures (2 million) > Star Fox Assault (1.9 million)

In the case of Zelda, I think Ocarina's mammoth sales are mostly due to the fact that it was the first 3D game in the franchise. If Wind Waker or Twilight Princess had been the debut 3D Zelda, even if they were dumbed down for the N64, one of them would have gotten the massive sales. Ocarina, then, as a follow up 3D game, would have moved fewer copies. It probably would have done all right, but I don't think it would have sold as well as it would have as a debut game. And because the jump to 3D can only occur once, you aren't likely to match those sort of sales again. The "wow!" factor is gone, and all sequels become the less impressive norm. Even if they're very good or improve upon the big seller. Other innovations, even if they radically improve gameplay, don't tend to get the same sales as the jump from 2D to 3D.

Selena, your argument about context only appears to refer to canoninity, not atmosphere. If you make a game entirely medieval fantasy except for one particular scene, then that scene is not going to change the general atmosphere. Just like if you have one well-lit room in a Resident Evil game, it isn't going to make the rest of the game less dark and scary.

Well, it's not really like the "one well-lit room in a Resident Evil" game. Having a well-lit room in a Resident Evil game is fairly understandable and doesn't really break the setting or theme. Nothing's really out of place, and the well-lit room is obviously part of the mansion/complex. Somebody just kept the lights on. Even a disco in Resi wouldn't be too out of place, assuming it's trashed up on account of ravenous zombie hordes. Something out of place for Resi's setting might be, say, a space ship or a Star Wars-esque laser rifle. Anything that's way too advanced for the years when Resi takes place. Even if something really sci-fi was just present in the background, it would break the setting. It wouldn't just be the modern era any more, because certain pieces of technology simply do not belong in our time. It'd be a new, alternate setting. You know. If the zombie hordes don't make it alternate enough already.

Having neon lights, telephones, aliens, circuitry, bowling alleys and what not does change/break the medieval setting. Even if that's just a slight effect. If the makers wanted to keep Zelda strictly medieval, the games would more closely resemble the movie Legend. Which has been compared to Zelda before, I believe.** Strong fantasy elements, but nothing's ever really out of place in terms of the setting. By including the aforementioned stuff, though, it's a sign that the creators aren't taking the setting of Zelda too seriously. Which is more than fine. Going back to the Herc and Xena example, they broke the Grecian setting plenty of times. Practically in every episode. But it was all for the sake of entertainment, so it paid off. That's the vibe I get with Zelda. The setting, technology and thematic elements aren't anywhere near as important to the creators as entertainment. If they think a concept sounds fun or interesting, they will break the medieval setting and throw stuff in that shouldn't really be there.

Now, in terms of destroying the soul of a Zelda game - moving away from the sword fighting and dungeon crawling - the train doesn't do that. It's just a new form of transportation, like Epona or the boat. From the trailer, the game still looks very much like a normal Zelda title. Dungeons and puzzle solving and all that stuff. You'll probably be collecting more useless trinkets. The only difference is you have a steam train instead of a horse. And, to be honest, while the train was a little surprising at first, I don't think it's all that out of place. But I've also never taken Zelda very seriously. Especially not the handhelds. One of the handhelds split Link into four people, after all.




** = If Zelda ever starts to properly use voice acting, then I say Tim Curry should do Ganon's voice.

[joeymartin64]

One of the handhelds split Link into four people, after all.

It's worse than that; two of the handhelds, and one of the console games pulled that shit. I hate that arc. A lot.

Well, back to the sidelines.

[Psytronic]

Okay, no problem Selena.

Spunky - sorry for fueling the fire.


BTW, here's a great mind****: Link in certain games is proven to be capable of travelling through time with the aid of magic. Imagine he's a total jackass, and just goes to the future to acquire a train, brings it back with him, and everyone's all "WADDA HELL IS THAT BOY". Link tells everyone to shove their hero business, he's gonna BE A CONDUCTOR.

Edited by Psytronic, 09 April 2009 - 02:26 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

Way to miss the point.

I might be a bit concerned about this, were it not for you disregarding the valid response from Showsni.

I love your way of judging things from your ignorance. You could at least wait to see more trailers, read reviews, play someone else's game, etc, instead of whining continually about everything. I also love the way you act as if you were a hero just because of your amazing ability to make a mountain out of a grain of sand.

What's love got to do with it? A declining video game series is what we're talking about here, the only ignorant ones are those who fail to spot Link's wearing a bastardised version of his tunic delivering letters across Hyrule on a bloody train, no less. They act like its the best thing since sliced bread.

1. No. Rules have never and will never be "open for interpretation" - it's be nice or be gone. If you think it's "sheepish" (whether you mean that by embarrassing, to be meek, or to follow blindly - I'm inclined to think the latter) to say "what's on [your] mind even if it gets you into trouble", then guess what - your stay here will be a short one.

2. Rules have never and will never be to "prevent fun" - on the very contrary, our rules exist to keep a civil taste on our forums to encourage fun and discourage unruly conduct. If, again, you think following said rules makes you a sheep, then go ahead and be the wolf in sheep's clothing - it'll only get you slaughtered.

Steady on, I don't even recall deserving threats such as these, or directly challenging the administrator's authority, or starting World War 3 on the forums, or being guilty of gross misconduct; neither is Psytronic guilty as charged. We're just not seeing eye-to-eye at this moment as each of us regards the other's remarks as being controversial. But if you guys want to single me out for the blame as usual, I have no objections. There's not exactly a member's tribunal where I can take said matters anyway.

Either way the only thing I can conclude at this moment is we're rubbing each other the wrong way, you lot being overzealous, and me being an opinionated grumpy git. Can we start over?

Sounds like you haven't got a single word to defend it. Is it frustrating to be unable to bully someone else into agreeing with you?

That shows you're not paying attention to my posts - I'm not defending a video game, what my biggest gripe with your arguments is that you haven't come up with a genuine complaint so far. You can't just sum up Ocarina as "bland" and "unoriginal" without stating why, because otherwise it makes no goddamn sense. What are you fault-picking about exactly? I've read over your responses to doublecheck and I still can't find a single legitimate issue or flaw with the gameplay anywhere in them.

You know something? This happened the other week when Screwattack.com's self-proclaimed windbag 'Stuttering Craig' slagged off Ecco the Dolphin as being "mediocre". WTF. That was an amazing and exceptional title for its day and all he can manage is "mediocre", did he manage to find something wrong –apart- from his taste in genres. No! So why summarise the game in its entirety as mediocre?

And this is the problem we have here; you haven't got a proper criticism of said game. Now call out Ocarina on being graphically outdated hindsight wise and while essentially that's being very unfair to it, you'd still have an undeniably valid point.


Find me one actual shred of evidence that Ocarina is the stagnation of the Zelda series at its vertex, and I'll take it all back. Everything.

Edited by spunky-monkey, 09 April 2009 - 11:18 AM.

[Psytronic]

Hey, I'd love to take a tumble, but I don't think it's fair to dump all of my disgruntles on this forum, not to mention my gruntles. I'm not sure how you really missed it, but my impression of Ocarina was that it shamelessly borrowed again and again from LttP before it. As I see it, it settled the series right down into the hole of repetition Aonuma's been accused of digging with the current games.

In all seriousness, though, I don't think I can stay on the topic and manage to not sound like a jerk. That in mind, I'm going to call it a day.