38 replies to this topic

[Paxi]

What I said was not only that rights are being taken away but that revision of the Constitution is necessary and just because something has always been doesn't mean it doesn't need to be changed. My examples were meant to cover all of those things. Yes, in that particular example I meant to address my concern about the death penalty, which I think conflicts with "natural rights", or life, liberty, and "no cruel punishment". That's going off topic a bit, but overall my point was that the Constitution is likely in need of some major changes, and needs to be made more difficult to manipulate. I said that maybe we should shred the constitution, and I wasn't being snide, I was being somewhat serious. (of course I do not mean "shred" so literally, but rather as the elimination of a lot of the outdated things, specify some things, make it more full-proof). What's so sacred about the constitution anyway? Idk...I guess I'm just not patriotic enough, but honestly...I don't know why everyone's so "proud" to be an American. This has officially gone completely off topic, but to bring it back...that was my point. If irresponsibly conceiving a ridiculous amount of children is a right protected by the Constitution then maybe that ought to be changed.

[Oberon Storm]

In that regard I agree with you on everything except, rights being slowly taken from us, the death penalty and your last sentence.

[Paxi]

Well as far as rights go - I think you could see them as either being slowly taken away, or maybe that we never really had a lot of them in the first place. A lot of people still think America is a democracy, when it in fact is not. Why not? Because Democracy, very much like Anarchy, is a nice idea...but just like Anarchy doesn't work, neither does democracy...and for the same reasons, because the majority of people are too ignorant to be given that kind of power. Thus, our federal government. I refuse to believe that our government tells us the truth about much of anything. That's just not how it works. Because if we knew, they'd lose our loyalty, and if they lose our loyalty, they lose our obedience. I guess my problem is not so much with the constitution as it is with the way our government manipulates the constitution and finds it loop holes. Does the constitution not grant equality and rights to all law abiding American citizens? But we know that NOT all law abiding American citizens are treated equally. I may have come off a little anti-American in my last few posts, but don't get me wrong. I'm not ungrateful for what I have in this country, I just think we could do better. A lot better. Our country may be less broken than others, but it's still broken.

As for the death penalty, I'm not sure how you can disagree with me on that issue as I have not actually stated how I felt about it, other than the fact it disturbs me and that I believe that punishment by death is cruel - is that what you disagree with? I'm not afraid to say that I honestly do not know entirely how I feel about the death penalty, as it boils downs entirely to circumstance. I've racked my brain on the topic. Though I am more inclined against the death penalty.

And I believe my last sentence more or less said that people shouldn't be overpopulating the Earth with children that they aren't able to care for. Why do you disagree?

[Oberon Storm]

Well as far as rights go - I think you could see them as either being slowly taken away, or maybe that we never really had a lot of them in the first place. A lot of people still think America is a democracy, when it in fact is not. Why not? Because Democracy, very much like Anarchy, is a nice idea...but just like Anarchy doesn't work, neither does democracy...and for the same reasons, because the majority of people are too ignorant to be given that kind of power. Thus, our federal government. I refuse to believe that our government tells us the truth about much of anything. That's just not how it works. Because if we knew, they'd lose our loyalty, and if they lose our loyalty, they lose our obedience. I guess my problem is not so much with the constitution as it is with the way our government manipulates the constitution and finds it loop holes. Does the constitution not grant equality and rights to all law abiding American citizens? But we know that NOT all law abiding American citizens are treated equally. I may have come off a little anti-American in my last few posts, but don't get me wrong. I'm not ungrateful for what I have in this country, I just think we could do better. A lot better. Our country may be less broken than others, but it's still broken.

My point was that just because past adminstrations have taken liberties with their power and the rights garanteed by Constitution have not been equallt applied does not mean we should throw the Constitution out the window an pretend it never existed. As long as we do have it we can call people out for their violation of other peoples rights.

As for the death penalty, I'm not sure how you can disagree with me on that issue as I have not actually stated how I felt about it, other than the fact it disturbs me and that I believe that punishment by death is cruel - is that what you disagree with? I'm not afraid to say that I honestly do not know entirely how I feel about the death penalty, as it boils downs entirely to circumstance. I've racked my brain on the topic. Though I am more inclined against the death penalty.

Right. I don't see it as cruel.

And I believe my last sentence more or less said that people shouldn't be overpopulating the Earth with children that they aren't able to care for. Why do you disagree?

For the reason stated earlier. The problems with enforcement and punishment. Then there are things the government should stay out of. Like personal lies.

[Fizzbit]

Guy rapes children, murders them, buries them under his house.

Guy blows up an entire building, killing a lot of people, including children

Guy drills a hole into victim's head and injects Formaldehyde directly into their brain.

Oh, but an injection that finishes them off much faster and painlessly than how their victims died is SO very cruel.*

*= Real examples, can't remember the method of execution. One may have been the gas chamber (which IS cruel)

[Oberon Storm]

Not to nitpick but Dahmer was killed in prison by another inmate. I'm assuming that's what your third example is referring to.

[Paxi]

The ending of somebody's life is always cruel. Under some circumstances it may or may not be necessary, that's not the point. It's still not something to be taken lightly. Be it lethal injection, or electrocution. People shouldn't have the right to go having a bunch of kids they can't take care of.

[Showsni]

I don't think there should be legislation about how many children you can conceive, but I do think there need to be more stringent rules about fertilisation treatment and IVF, given this case. I don't think anyone should just be allowed to put forward the money for IVF treatment and get a baby; rather, it should need some legal process whereby the prospective parent pleads their case, including proving that they would be a suitable parent. I don't know what the current rules and regulations are, but given this case it seems they're not enough.

[Oberon Storm]

People shouldn't have the right to go having a bunch of kids they can't take care of.

It isn't like there are hordes of people out to pop out as many kids as they can regardless of their financial situation. I do think the subject of the OP probably does have a problem she needs to see a doctor for, but I do not think we need to prosecute her for it. Most people, I would think, that have children when they do not have the means do so by accident. Shit happens even when using protection.

So what do you want to do? Make sex illegal below a certain tax bracket? Serioulsy. I would like those that would favor some kind of legislation on this tell me exactly what they would like to see done. And I mean beyond the obvious sex education & regulations on alternative methods.

Edited by Chief Fire Storm, 24 March 2009 - 11:43 AM.