76 replies to this topic

[Lexxi Aileron]

And don't forget - mistranslated and incorrect information, including Miyamoto's quote, were removed from the US Zelda site at Nintendo's request. This is an implicit suggestion that the Miyamoto timeline is actually WRONG. Oh, and don't forget the fact that ALttP was made to show the origins of things in LoZ, and that IW-ALttP-LoZ was a necessity for those elements to work - all the way up to 2002. And all the developer statements linking OoT, at the time when it was the IW, directly to ALttP. Am I missing anything?

1- The IW story, which was co-opted into OoT, which stands as the true original appearance of Ganon, shows the origins of things in LoZ. There's no need for ALttP to be before anything when OoT contains all of the origins stories that appeared in its prologue within itself.
2- OoT never could link directly to ALttP without some speculation because Ganon lacked the entire Triforce. Frankly LoZ worked just as well if not better as a sequel for this reason alone.

[Impossible]

1- The IW story, which was co-opted into OoT, which stands as the true original appearance of Ganon, shows the origins of things in LoZ. There's no need for ALttP to be before anything when OoT contains all of the origins stories that appeared in its prologue within itself.

...This makes no sense. OoT was, at the time, a replacement for the IW. It was IW-ALttP-LoZ before OoT came out, it was still IW-ALttP-LoZ after.

2- OoT never could link directly to ALttP without some speculation because Ganon lacked the entire Triforce. Frankly LoZ worked just as well if not better as a sequel for this reason alone.

...Yes, because as a comparison, Ganon has the entire Triforce after AoL. When he's not sealed in the SR, and dead, although we know from TWW that this is irrelevant to you.

Edited by Impossible, 09 December 2008 - 06:31 AM.

[Raien]

Of the Old Hyrule, to be sure. No such religious significance is attached to Hyrule in LoZ/AoL/ALttP/TMC/FSA. The only exception is ALttP, but it only gives this significance to Hyrule at the time of the IW.

The presence of the Four Elements in TMC certainly indicate that the land is Old Hyrule. The presence of the Sacred Realm, and portals that lead into it, indicate that the land is Old Hyrule. And furthermore, the religious significance of the Old Hyrule is the fundamental reason that their descendants continue to believe in it.

When Daphnes destroyed the land of Hyrule, he destroyed its religious significance and thus the want to rebuild Hyrule. If Nintendo wanted Hyrule to be rebuilt after the Great Flood, they would have had Daphnes remove the floodwaters.

Edited by Raian, 09 December 2008 - 07:48 AM.

[wring]

But you'd basically have to have Link to the Past before Twilight Princess for your arguement of ALttp-LoZ to make sense. If Alttp was ment to show the origins of the Triforce, then why does Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time give us different origins of the Triforce. Link takes the Triforce of Courage from the Sacred Realm, the Goddesses grant Ganondorf a Triforce, and then Zelda gets a hold of a Triforce. You'd need the Triforce to be put back in the Sacred Realm anyways, maybe if the next game seals Ganondorf, and the Triforce then it'd work, but until then, your arguement is just baised on speculation. And I doubt the next game will seal Ganondorf and the Triforce.

[Raien]

If Alttp was ment to show the origins of the Triforce, then why does Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time give us different origins of the Triforce.

They don't give us different origins of the Triforce. All accounts say that the Triforce was created when the goddesses departed for the heavens after creating the world. The Triforce was left behind in the Sacred Realm to govern the world. It is also explained that Ganondorf became Ganon by enterring the Sacred Realm and taking the whole Triforce, and hence, ALttP is an origin story for the events in LoZ.

[Lexxi Aileron]

...This makes no sense. OoT was, at the time, a replacement for the IW. It was IW-ALttP-LoZ before OoT came out, it was still IW-ALttP-LoZ after.

Can you collaborate this with a developer quote?

...Yes, because as a comparison, Ganon has the entire Triforce after AoL. When he's not sealed in the SR, and dead, although we know from TWW that this is irrelevant to you.

The Triforce is at least whole after AoL. So far from what we've seen, Ganon always dies before the Triforce is made whole in any of OoT's sequels. You'd think if they were so intent on keeping ALttP's backstory intact they would do something that makes more sense with your picture of it for once.

If Nintendo wanted Hyrule to be rebuilt after the Great Flood, they would have had Daphnes remove the floodwaters.

I disagree. Daphnes destroyed Hyrule so that the new kingdom would be one of his descendants' making. TWW already implies that the kingdom survived via the people who the gods commanded to flee to the mountaintops and avoid destruction. "The gods knew that to seal the people away would grant Ganon's wish for the destruction of the land..."

[wring]

I just talked to Laruto for the first time and she said something about Ganondorf being revived. That could be a reference to A Link to the Past happening before Wind Waker's back story. What would happen would be Ganondorf is sealed. Ganodorf breaks the seal, but is killed in the process, and the Dark World changes back to the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf remains in the Sacred Realm until he is revived, then he kills the two sages, before being sealed a second time by the Master Sword.

If Laruto is really talking about Ganondorf being revived then I'd have to say LoZ and ALttP belong on seperate timelines.

MC-FS/FSA-OoT-ALttP/LA-WW/PH
Child Timeline OoT/MM-TP-LoZ/AoL-OoX

Four Sword and Four Sword Adventure would have to be there because Oracles of Ages/Season would have to be placed on the Adult Timeline because of Twinrosa, and the Trident appears in both games.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I think Ganon being "revived" refers to being returned to Hyrule after he was stuck in the evil realm, based on the fact that he's being "revived" from his defeat by the Hero of Time (and the Hero of Time didn't kill him).

[MikePetersSucks]

Again, I have to agree with Lexx. It's referring to the fact that he escaped his seal, so his terror is revived.

If Laruto is really talking about Ganondorf being revived then I'd have to say LoZ and ALttP belong on seperate timelines.

Even if he is being literally leaved, that's a huge fucking leap in logic.

MC-FS/FSA-OoT-ALttP/LA-WW/PH

Impossible, WW is a sequel to OOT's Adult Timeline. There's no room for LTTP to be squeezed inbetween considering the backstory, the fate of the Triforce, and so forth.

Four Sword and Four Sword Adventure would have to be there because Oracles of Ages/Season would have to be placed on the Adult Timeline because of Twinrosa, and the Trident appears in both games.

So what? holy shit, your logic is TERRIBLE.

[wring]

Look at it this way.
Ocarina of Time is the Imprisoning War where Ganondorf gets sealed in the Dark World.
A Link to the Past is Ganondorf breaking the seal, but failed to escape.
Wind Waker is after Ganondorf escapes.

I think that after Ganon was killed, and his wish was cancelled, the Triforce pieces returned to the Sacred Realm, where Link could touch them again and make his wish. It does explain the Triforce of Power vs the whole Triforce. When Ganondorf was revived he managed to regain his Triforce of Power before being sealed. The Triforce of Courage and Wisdom remained in the Royal Family, and the ToW was hidden with the King and Zelda, while the ToC was already split into pieces when Hero of Time left, and even though LttP Link collects the pieces, they remained seperate and were lost over time. This keeps Ocarina of Time as the Imprisoning War, which is what we know the authors intended, I'd argue that this is the only way to keep OoT as the imprisoning war cus we can't place it before Twilight Princess (There'd be no Dark World, seal, or Sages anyways) and if we put it after either TP or WW, Ganondorf has died, and the Dark World would've vanished, meaning we'd have to get a different explanation of the Dark World, and the seal. Since we know the authors intended OoT as the IW, and timelines are supposed to be baised on the author's intent, the correct timeline should be able to keep OoT as the IW. Besides, this does explain the confusion we've been getting as to the relationship of LttP and LoZ, if they were on seperate timelines I can imagine the developers being confused about their placement especially before Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were released revealing the split timeline.

Also, I'm starting to think the Capcom games arn't part of the storyline. The Minish Cap, Four Sword, and Four Sword Adventure don't really fit in with the other games, storyline wise, and the Oracles games don't really effect the storyline at all, and can be placed nearly anywhere and not make a problem. I think someone else said the same thing somewhere...

[Showsni]

Look at it this way.
Ocarina of Time is the Imprisoning War where Ganondorf gets sealed in the Dark World.
A Link to the Past is Ganondorf breaking the seal, but failed to escape.
Wind Waker is after Ganondorf escapes.

I think that after Ganon was killed, and his wish was cancelled, the Triforce pieces returned to the Sacred Realm, where Link could touch them again and make his wish. It does explain the Triforce of Power vs the whole Triforce. When Ganondorf was revived he managed to regain his Triforce of Power before being sealed. The Triforce of Courage and Wisdom remained in the Royal Family, and the ToW was hidden with the King and Zelda, while the ToC was already split into pieces when Hero of Time left, and even though LttP Link collects the pieces, they remained seperate and were lost over time. This keeps Ocarina of Time as the Imprisoning War, which is what we know the authors intended, I'd argue that this is the only way to keep OoT as the imprisoning war cus we can't place it before Twilight Princess (There'd be no Dark World, seal, or Sages anyways) and if we put it after either TP or WW, Ganondorf has died, and the Dark World would've vanished, meaning we'd have to get a different explanation of the Dark World, and the seal. Since we know the authors intended OoT as the IW, and timelines are supposed to be baised on the author's intent, the correct timeline should be able to keep OoT as the IW. Besides, this does explain the confusion we've been getting as to the relationship of LttP and LoZ, if they were on seperate timelines I can imagine the developers being confused about their placement especially before Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were released revealing the split timeline.

So, you have here OoT-ALttP-TWW.
Since TWW doesn't follow nicely from ALttP, you're saying that some extra event happens in between, like so:

OoT
ALttP
Not shown in a game: Ganondorf revived, enters SR, obtains ToP, the ToW and ToC go to Zelda and Link, Ganondorf sealed in SR
TWW

Well, okay. Does that extra event sound familiar, though? That's right, it's exactly what happens in OoT. You're saying instead of having 1. (not quite OoT)-ALttP-OoT-TWW with an extra event that's a little like OoT before ALttP, we have 2. OoT-ALttP-(not quite OoT)-TWW, with an event that's exactly like OoT before TWW. 2 might work, strictly speaking; but I think 1 is a lot better.

The only benefit 2 has is allowing OoT to be the IW in accordance with some rather old quotes. It causes conflicts between OoT and ALttP's description of the IW; there are lots of differences between the two. And it forces there to be pretty much two OoTs, one of which is never seen in games or alluded to, thus being entirely fanfiction.

1, on the other hand, ignores comments about OoT being the IW. But this allows an IW that's exactly as written in ALttP; and since this IW is as written in ALttP, it's very different to OoT, so when OoT occurs later on there's no problem with having two identical events repeated. It also allows the more recent quotes that TWW is a sequel to OoT to be fulfilled, and contains no fanfiction.

So which is better? A timeline that fulfils older quotes, causes contradictions, and has an event repeat near exactly, with fanfiction? Or one that fulfils newer quotes, has no contradictions and no repetitions, and uses just events seen or described in the games and their backstories? I think it's pretty obvious.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Or one that fulfils newer quotes, has no contradictions and no repetitions

1) Personally, I think OoT=IW is "newer" than "IW=separate event."
2) OoT and the IW both claim the Triforce remains in the Sacred Realm after being placed there by the goddesses at creation.
3) I would say that two different sages' seals cast in response to two different instances of an invasion of the same territory to claim the same artifact by the same person is as bold a repetition as you can get.

[Impossible]

3) I would say that two different sages' seals cast in response to two different instances of an invasion of the same territory to claim the same artifact by the same person is as bold a repetition as you can get.

Which is why they're on different timelines. If ALttP and Adult OoT were on the same timeline, with TWW now in between fucking things up, you'd ALSO need two different instances of an invasion of the same territory to claim the same artifact by the same person. Which makes me wonder how any OoT-ALttP connection can still be relevant. What's the point in calling OoT the IW? It's just a name. It doesn't represent the events of ALttP's backstory, i.e. the Ganon of ALttP taking the Triforce.

[Showsni]

1) Personally, I think OoT=IW is "newer" than "IW=separate event."

OoT->TWW is newer than OoT->ALttP

2) OoT and the IW both claim the Triforce remains in the Sacred Realm after being placed there by the goddesses at creation.

No they don't. (Or, "proof?")

3) I would say that two different sages' seals cast in response to two different instances of an invasion of the same territory to claim the same artifact by the same person is as bold a repetition as you can get.

His current version requires that whichever way round you put it. Better to have some differences than none.

[MikePetersSucks]

Look at it this way.
Ocarina of Time is the Imprisoning War where Ganondorf gets sealed in the Dark World.
A Link to the Past is Ganondorf breaking the seal, but failed to escape.
Wind Waker is after Ganondorf escapes.

I suppose you're not realizing the major flaw here. Ganon dies in LTTP, so how can we go from LTTP, right to TWW where Ganon breaks free from the OOT seal without trouble and causes havoc, without a game inbetween to bridge the gap?

I think that after Ganon was killed, and his wish was cancelled, the Triforce pieces returned to the Sacred Realm, where Link could touch them again and make his wish. It does explain the Triforce of Power vs the whole Triforce. When Ganondorf was revived he managed to regain his Triforce of Power before being sealed. The Triforce of Courage and Wisdom remained in the Royal Family, and the ToW was hidden with the King and Zelda, while the ToC was already split into pieces when Hero of Time left, and even though LttP Link collects the pieces, they remained seperate and were lost over time. This keeps Ocarina of Time as the Imprisoning War, which is what we know the authors intended, I'd argue that this is the only way to keep OoT as the imprisoning war cus we can't place it before Twilight Princess (There'd be no Dark World, seal, or Sages anyways) and if we put it after either TP or WW, Ganondorf has died, and the Dark World would've vanished, meaning we'd have to get a different explanation of the Dark World, and the seal. Since we know the authors intended OoT as the IW, and timelines are supposed to be baised on the author's intent, the correct timeline should be able to keep OoT as the IW. Besides, this does explain the confusion we've been getting as to the relationship of LttP and LoZ, if they were on seperate timelines I can imagine the developers being confused about their placement especially before Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were released revealing the split timeline.

Major flaw: Ganon has the entire Triforce in LTTP, and it's his ownership of it that allows him to make a wish. Your order doesn't work, and the OOT=IW thing is either a plot hole that can't ever be solved, or was retconned.

Also, I'm starting to think the Capcom games arn't part of the storyline. The Minish Cap, Four Sword, and Four Sword Adventure don't really fit in with the other games, storyline wise, and the Oracles games don't really effect the storyline at all, and can be placed nearly anywhere and not make a problem. I think someone else said the same thing somewhere...

That's just lazy. In that case, I don't count any of the old games before OOT canon anymore because there's little to no references to them and the other games are fine without them gwar.

[wring]

Look at it this way.
Ocarina of Time is the Imprisoning War where Ganondorf gets sealed in the Dark World.
A Link to the Past is Ganondorf breaking the seal, but failed to escape.
Wind Waker is after Ganondorf escapes.

I think that after Ganon was killed, and his wish was cancelled, the Triforce pieces returned to the Sacred Realm, where Link could touch them again and make his wish. It does explain the Triforce of Power vs the whole Triforce. When Ganondorf was revived he managed to regain his Triforce of Power before being sealed. The Triforce of Courage and Wisdom remained in the Royal Family, and the ToW was hidden with the King and Zelda, while the ToC was already split into pieces when Hero of Time left, and even though LttP Link collects the pieces, they remained seperate and were lost over time. This keeps Ocarina of Time as the Imprisoning War, which is what we know the authors intended, I'd argue that this is the only way to keep OoT as the imprisoning war cus we can't place it before Twilight Princess (There'd be no Dark World, seal, or Sages anyways) and if we put it after either TP or WW, Ganondorf has died, and the Dark World would've vanished, meaning we'd have to get a different explanation of the Dark World, and the seal. Since we know the authors intended OoT as the IW, and timelines are supposed to be baised on the author's intent, the correct timeline should be able to keep OoT as the IW. Besides, this does explain the confusion we've been getting as to the relationship of LttP and LoZ, if they were on seperate timelines I can imagine the developers being confused about their placement especially before Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were released revealing the split timeline.

So, you have here OoT-ALttP-TWW.
Since TWW doesn't follow nicely from ALttP, you're saying that some extra event happens in between, like so:

OoT
ALttP
Not shown in a game: Ganondorf revived, enters SR, obtains ToP, the ToW and ToC go to Zelda and Link, Ganondorf sealed in SR
TWW

Well, okay. Does that extra event sound familiar, though? That's right, it's exactly what happens in OoT. You're saying instead of having 1. (not quite OoT)-ALttP-OoT-TWW with an extra event that's a little like OoT before ALttP, we have 2. OoT-ALttP-(not quite OoT)-TWW, with an event that's exactly like OoT before TWW. 2 might work, strictly speaking; but I think 1 is a lot better.

The only benefit 2 has is allowing OoT to be the IW in accordance with some rather old quotes. It causes conflicts between OoT and ALttP's description of the IW; there are lots of differences between the two. And it forces there to be pretty much two OoTs, one of which is never seen in games or alluded to, thus being entirely fanfiction.

1, on the other hand, ignores comments about OoT being the IW. But this allows an IW that's exactly as written in ALttP; and since this IW is as written in ALttP, it's very different to OoT, so when OoT occurs later on there's no problem with having two identical events repeated. It also allows the more recent quotes that TWW is a sequel to OoT to be fulfilled, and contains no fanfiction.

So which is better? A timeline that fulfils older quotes, causes contradictions, and has an event repeat near exactly, with fanfiction? Or one that fulfils newer quotes, has no contradictions and no repetitions, and uses just events seen or described in the games and their backstories? I think it's pretty obvious.

No because at the end of A Link to the Past, the Hylians posses the Completed Triforce, and the seal is already broken. He can't escape the Sacred Realm because he's dead. Its kind of hard to leave a place if you've been killed. I'll only admit I'm wrong if I find a reference to the Dark World still exsisting in Wind Waker. If my theory is correct, the Dark World should be the Sacred Realm again by the time Wind Waker happens. Also, I think the story of Link to the Past isn't mentioned in the legend for two reasons 1) its irrelavent to the story and 2) Most of the game takes place in the Dark World, so to an outsider, you might not know that the seal was ever broken, especially since Ganon is killed before he can escape.
I believe Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, and Zelda has the Triforce of Wisdom because the developers have stated that they always give those pieces to those characters, ever since Legend of Zelda. Its not necesarily linked to Ocarina of Time, any more then LoZ is linked to Ocarina of Time. I believe that Ganondorf probably stole the Triforce of Power from the Hylians when he attacked. Either that or maybe he regained it when he was revived somehow.
The Triforce of Power vs Whole Triforce probably has an explanation on that word document locked in Nintendo's basement. Anyways, when they made Ocarina of Time they ment it to be the Imprisoning War, so I don't really think it needs an explanation because Word Of God says its true.

[Lexxi Aileron]

OoT->TWW is newer than OoT->ALttP

In other words, IW-/-ALttP is newer than IW-ALttP. Right?
Especially given that ALttP's original relationship to the series has already been screwed with enough times that we might as well forget about it.

No they don't. (Or, "proof?")

It doesn't get much clearer than saying

"For it is in that Sacred Realm
that one will find the divine
relic, the Triforce, which contains
the essence of the gods..."

and then going and explaining the creation myth and telling about how the goddesses left it behind after creating the world at a resting place which is now the Sacred Realm.

This is more or less the same exact evidence that suggests that the IW is the first time the Triforce is touched, too--

"Three gods created the world and left behind sacred golden triangls, the Triforce, in the Sacred Realm. People searched for the place that hid the gold..."
"Three great goddesses created the world and sacred golden triangles, the Triforce, remained in the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf uses his vile sorcerous powers in his hunt for the Sacred Realm..."

The only difference between these two accounts, besides the specific wordage is that the latter is more specific. Since it is literally supposed to be a direct and complete telling of the events of the former, it is obvious that it would be more specific.

His current version requires that whichever way round you put it. Better to have some differences than none.

The current games require that Ganon steals the Triforce several times, but not that Sages seal the Sacred Realm several times (especially given that second point I made). Sources released after ALttP SNES actually don't uphold the idea that Ganondorf in ALttP stole the Triforce during the Imprisoning War, so why be so adamant about it? It honestly seems like fanaticism to me. =/ UWM all over again, much?

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 12 December 2008 - 12:05 PM.

[Raien]

When I first read Lex's latest post, I was going to answer all the things wrong with it. The fact that Lex now asserts the most inconsistent explanation of ALttP's back story ever devised is canon. The fact that Lex asserts the Imprisoning War is not relevant to ALttP, despite that it is prominently referenced as the work of the game's primary villain. The fact that Lex asserts the Triforce never left the Sacred Realm before the Imprisoning War when there is absolutely no suggestion in ALttP GBA that this is the case.

But there's only one thing that can effectively summarise all of the above:

Edited by Raian, 12 December 2008 - 01:44 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

I'm not beating this dead horse. There's no evidence to support that ALttP's backstory has been upheld, and a number of instances in which the opposite is implied. If that's not enough for you, I frankly can't convince you.

[MikePetersSucks]

No because at the end of A Link to the Past, the Hylians posses the Completed Triforce, and the seal is already broken. He can't escape the Sacred Realm because he's dead. Its kind of hard to leave a place if you've been killed. I'll only admit I'm wrong if I find a reference to the Dark World still exsisting in Wind Waker. If my theory is correct, the Dark World should be the Sacred Realm again by the time Wind Waker happens. Also, I think the story of Link to the Past isn't mentioned in the legend for two reasons 1) its irrelavent to the story and 2) Most of the game takes place in the Dark World, so to an outsider, you might not know that the seal was ever broken, especially since Ganon is killed before he can escape.
I believe Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, and Zelda has the Triforce of Wisdom because the developers have stated that they always give those pieces to those characters, ever since Legend of Zelda. Its not necesarily linked to Ocarina of Time, any more then LoZ is linked to Ocarina of Time. I believe that Ganondorf probably stole the Triforce of Power from the Hylians when he attacked. Either that or maybe he regained it when he was revived somehow.
The Triforce of Power vs Whole Triforce probably has an explanation on that word document locked in Nintendo's basement. Anyways, when they made Ocarina of Time they ment it to be the Imprisoning War, so I don't really think it needs an explanation because Word Of God says its true.

No...just...no.

I'm not beating this dead horse. There's no evidence to support that ALttP's backstory has been upheld, and a number of instances in which the opposite is implied. If that's not enough for you, I frankly can't convince you.

Like what?

[Lexxi Aileron]

Like what?

This about sums it up.

[Showsni]

In other words, IW-/-ALttP is newer than IW-ALttP. Right?
Especially given that ALttP's original relationship to the series has already been screwed with enough times that we might as well forget about it.

Not really; I think the IW-ALttP connection is just fine. (I would argue against any OoT-ALttP connection).

It doesn't get much clearer than saying

"For it is in that Sacred Realm
that one will find the divine
relic, the Triforce, which contains
the essence of the gods..."

and then going and explaining the creation myth and telling about how the goddesses left it behind after creating the world at a resting place which is now the Sacred Realm.

This is more or less the same exact evidence that suggests that the IW is the first time the Triforce is touched, too--

"Three gods created the world and left behind sacred golden triangls, the Triforce, in the Sacred Realm. People searched for the place that hid the gold..."
"Three great goddesses created the world and sacred golden triangles, the Triforce, remained in the Sacred Realm. Ganondorf uses his vile sorcerous powers in his hunt for the Sacred Realm..."

The only difference between these two accounts, besides the specific wordage is that the latter is more specific. Since it is literally supposed to be a direct and complete telling of the events of the former, it is obvious that it would be more specific.

It is in the city of Portsmouth that one will find the Mary Rose. Hundreds of years ago, the Mary Rose was built in Portsmouth.

True enough, but not a word about where it's sailed in between times. I don't think either account of the triforce gives any proof that it hasn't been used between its creation and the account. Falling back on other evidence, we see the Temple of Time, Master Sword, Ocarina of Time, Song of Time and three spiritual stones forming a lock on the triforce, which to me indicates that it's been used before and people know it should be kept locked away because they realise its power.

The current games require that Ganon steals the Triforce several times, but not that Sages seal the Sacred Realm several times (especially given that second point I made). Sources released after ALttP SNES actually don't uphold the idea that Ganondorf in ALttP stole the Triforce during the Imprisoning War, so why be so adamant about it? It honestly seems like fanaticism to me. =/ UWM all over again, much?

The Sacred Realm isn't sealed by the Sages in OoT, in my theory; they merely open one of the doorways through the older seal and then close it again. And who cares about non ALttP sources when looking at ALttP? ALttP's own story has much more relevance to ALttP than anything else.

There's no evidence to support that ALttP's backstory has been upheld, and a number of instances in which the opposite is implied.

I care a lot less about creator intents and remarks than canon facts.

Anyways, when they made Ocarina of Time they ment it to be the Imprisoning War, so I don't really think it needs an explanation because Word Of God says its true.

I care a lot less about creator intents and remarks than canon facts.

[Raien]

Lex, you keep saying you're beating a dead horse, but I honestly can't remember you arguing against my point that Ganon is connected to the Imprisoning War through the Dark World. As soon as I bring it up, like in the recent "AoL Towns" topic, the debate stops dead. It defeats your point that the Imprisoning War becomes irrelevant if the remake keeps it relevant.

[Impossible]

I COULD just echo Raian's last post because it's completely right, but I may as well be the one to do this right:

The current games require that Ganon steals the Triforce several times, but not that Sages seal the Sacred Realm several times (especially given that second point I made)

.

DIFFERENT. TIMELINES. And yes, that is required, unless different chunks of ALttP's backstory happened hundreds of years apart. Never mind the fact that OoT has a different Ganon to ALttP now, so it's totally damn irrelevant.

Sources released after ALttP SNES actually don't uphold the idea that Ganondorf in ALttP stole the Triforce during the Imprisoning War, so why be so adamant about it? It honestly seems like fanaticism to me. =/ UWM all over again, much?

Sources like ALttP GBA, which describes an event identical to the IW? Somehow, I take that over a non-canon soundtrack CD that was released before even OoT. Why the hell would Nintendo have started separating ALttP from the IW before OoT was even released? That's just ridiculous.

Also, I believe we're still waiting for the quote that proves that the Triforce remained in the SR from creation to ALttP. You know, the one that doesn't exist. The quotes you gave simply explain the origins of the Triforce. They make no suggestion either way as to whether or not it's ever been removed before. In all likelihood, most people have no idea that it was. No matter what your timeline is, it's simply a fact that the Triforce HAS left the SR before ALttP, and that simply wasn't the original intent when the dialogue was written in 1991.

Edited by Impossible, 12 December 2008 - 08:00 PM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

Somehow, I take that over a non-canon soundtrack CD that was released before even OoT. Why the hell would Nintendo have started separating ALttP from the IW before OoT was even released?

1) Fair enough if you dispute S&D's relevance.
2) AST should serve as evidence enough that Nintendo didn't connect ALttP to the IW before OoT's release. OoT itself should also serve as evidence. =P

Also, I believe we're still waiting for the quote that proves that the Triforce remained in the SR from creation to ALttP.

"A long long time ago, when the trinity of the "God of Power", the "God of Wisdom", and the "God of Courage" had descended to the world of chaos and completed their creation of all things, they left behind somewhere in the world an omniscient and omnipotent sacred golden triangle, the Triforce. After many years, people headed for the sacred place that hid the gold, the entrance to which was in the kingdom of Hyrule."

Story (GBA version, 2002):
The goddesses created everything.
The goddesses left the Triforce somewhere.
Many years passed.
People headed to the sacred place where the Triforce was hid.

Please explain to me where the Triforce leaving the Sacred Realm comes into play in this story.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 12 December 2008 - 08:23 PM.

[Impossible]

2) AST should serve as evidence enough that Nintendo didn't connect ALttP to the IW before OoT's release. OoT itself should also serve as evidence. =P

The AST point is flimsy, and we can all see that. It's pretty damn easy to say something slightly off when you're summing up the entire story of a game in a couple of sentences. And it was the voice acted lines, too. It was simplified, and it makes no sense to suggest that AST retconned anything in ALttP. Its canonicity isn't THAT definitive that it can change anything based on one line, which was simply the result of not wanting to detail ALttP's backstory in a game that has nothing to do with it. There's no logical reason why Nintendo would suggest that ALttP's backstory magically no longer exists - quite simply, what AST says is false, as it contradicts the in-game story of both ALttP and ALttP GBA. You're doing your whole "blow one line out of proportion" thing again.

OoT doesn't serve as evidence of something before OoT's release. Too didn't disconnect ALttP from the IW in any way, shape or form, because OoT WAS the IW. You're simply twisting reality once more, you're conjuring up nonexistent evidence that ALttP was being separated from the IW years before TWW came out. Which is ridiculous, that kind of idea could never hold any water and is based on poor reasoning. And with TWW onwards, they didn't separate ALttP from the IW, they separated ALttP from OoT. There was never any IW separation. The IW is a part of ALttP, so why the hell would they be separating a game from its own foundations, which are a required part of the story? ALttP GBA didn't change anything. Which, in itself, was a change: OoT superseded ALttP, and now ALttP supersedes OoT again.

Story (GBA version, 2002):
The goddesses created everything.
The goddesses left the Triforce somewhere.
Many years passed.
People headed to the sacred place where the Triforce was hid.

Please explain to me where the Triforce leaving the Sacred Realm comes into play in this story.

You'd think after doing this for as long as you have, you'd have a better conception of reality and actual possibilities by now. In 2002, when TWW necessitated the retcon of the OoT/ALttP connection:

OoT-TWW-ALttP
or
OoT Child-MM-IW-ALttP

Which one has the Triforce leaving the Sacred Realm? Which one has the Triforce in use before Ganon, the one in ALttP, enters the Sacred Realm and touches it? And as for now, I ALREADY responded to this in the paragraph following your response, which you didn't happen to address. There's no possible way they could have accounted for games that weren't made yet in 1991, and no possible way they could have accounted for games that weren't made yet in 2002 - keeping in mind that it's already been proven that ALttP GBA deliberately DIDN'T change anything from ALttP. The fact is, there's no indication that the manual story is telling us the entire history of Hyrule and the Triforce from beginning to end. There's no implication that the Triforce COULDN'T have left, just that it was in the Sacred Realm when the IW happened - which, on the Child Timeline, WAS the first time people sought out the Triforce in the Sacred Realm. Nobody knew that it had already left the SR.

So not only could the story ONLY have been written the way you're quoting in 2002 (therefore, no contradictions), it's still completely consistent. It's still BETTER and more logical with my explanation of the IW and my placement of ALttP, due to the fact that it made the very manual you're quoting absolutely, unarguably correct, rather than just technically correct. And I'm disgusted that you of all people would argue with me over the intended or implied meaning - you've used many texts, including the US version of THAT SAME STORY, purely for semantics, refusing to accept the actual meaning. I'm sure I'm not the only one who will call you out on that.

Edited by Impossible, 13 December 2008 - 01:12 AM.

[Lexxi Aileron]

There's no logical reason why Nintendo would suggest that ALttP's backstory magically no longer exists - quite simply, what AST says is false, as it contradicts the in-game story of both ALttP and ALttP GBA. You're doing your whole "blow one line out of proportion" thing again.

1) I never said ALttP's backstory magically no longer exists.
2) AST does not in fact contradict the in-game story of ALttP, as ALttP makes no real claims as to when Ganon took the Triforce.
3) You're doing your whole "I refuse to accept any evidence that messes with my precious ALttP" thing again.

no possible way they could have accounted for games that weren't made yet in 2002

*ahem*

ALttP GBA Japanese release date: 3.14.2003
TWW Japanese release date: 12.13.2002

didn't disconnect ALttP from the IW in any way, shape or form, because OoT WAS the IW.

And didn't end with Ganon owning the entire Triforce. Thus, some other event, seen or unseen, had to fill in the holes. This is in 1998, mind you.

And with TWW onwards, they didn't separate ALttP from the IW, they separated ALttP from OoT.

I thought OoT WAS the IW? And wasn't OoT the IW in 1998, and didn't it have a plothole separating it from ALttP in 1998? 2003 changed nothing.

The IW is a part of ALttP, so why the hell would they be separating a game from its own foundations, which are a required part of the story?

Because Zelda's continuity is retroactive, and thus always subject to change.

There's no implication that the Triforce COULDN'T have left, just that it was in the Sacred Realm when the IW happened - which, on the Child Timeline, WAS the first time people sought out the Triforce in the Sacred Realm.

The implication is:

The Triforce was left behind at creation.
People searched for the Triforce where it was left behind.

Why reference creation as the starting point? Why not just say "a golden relic existed in Hyrule" like in the original games?

On the Child timeline, an event taking place in close proximity to ALttP can't fit these qualifications. It may have possibly fit back in 2003, but other media managed to present ALttP as easily taking place without any bother to talk about the IW backstory and indeed with a different picture than the original ALttP gave, and OoT finally sealed the deal by showing us that Ganon DIDN'T get the whole Triforce in the IW anyway all the way in 1998, so the only reason to think that 2003 was the point in which ALttP's relationship to the series changed was continued denial about the other time(s) official sources had changed it already.

So not only could the story ONLY have been written the way you're quoting in 2002

Without mentioning Ganon, the supposed villain, while still mentioning the irrelevant and supposedly unconnected creation?

The writers of the GBA manual clearly don't know the original story of ALttP. At least according to your logic.

Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 13 December 2008 - 01:56 AM.

[Impossible]

ALttP GBA Japanese release date: 3.14.2003
TWW Japanese release date: 12.13.2002

What the hell are you on about? It was made in Japanese and translated into English in 2002, the release date doesn't mean anything. Stop nitpicking at stupid crap again, it's not actually helping your point - if anything, it just shows that you're using outdated information and evidence from well before 2002 or 2003.

1) I never said ALttP's backstory magically no longer exists.

Um, yeah, that's basically what you said about the IW. And disconnecting a game from ITS OWN BACKSTORY is just about the most illogical bullshit ever. Yeah, I bet Nintendo intended that.

2) AST does not in fact contradict the in-game story of ALttP, as ALttP makes no real claims as to when Ganon took the Triforce.

I love how we're forced to prove how wrong you are EVERY TIME and you keep pretending it never happened. I think I've even pointed that out before, too. Please don't lie, either.

Anyway, ALttP talks about the fucking sages who sealed the Sacred Realm when Ganon took the Triforce. Their descendants are the ones in it.

Hoping to claim the Golden
Power as their own, the people
began to quarrel and fight...

Many sought to enter the
hidden Golden Land...

But none returned, and instead
evil power began to issue
forth from the dark portal...

So the king commanded seven
sages to seal the gate to
the land of the Golden Power.

Many brave knights were lost
in the battle to protect the
sages from the tides of evil,

but the seal was cast! Evil
flowed no more! And the seal
would remain for all time...

Or so the people hoped...

But when these events were
obscured by the mists of
time, and became legend...

You're doing your shit where you completely ignore intended meaning again. Read the maiden dialogue, which explains Ganon's involvement in the above, and tell me that ALttP's backstory, including all events described in the manual and in the game, have nothing to do with ALttP. Because of an oversimplification of a previous, unrelated story in a game that's not really in the actual timeline?

Ganon was the one who turned the SR into the Dark World, this is also stated in-game, completely forcing him into the above events. And since ALttP GBA is 100% consistent with the original ALttP, ignoring the facts and crucial story presented in the full version of the backstory in that manual is moronic. Its removal had nothing to do with the story, it's just that they don't do that in manuals anymore. They made it the same as the in-game story, because nobody in Hyrule actually knows or says anything about Ganon (his name doesn't appear in the game ONCE until you start rescuing maidens), so he wouldn't be included in the legend of evil power sealed inside the Sacred Realm. It was only left out for plot consistency, not to suit a distortion of the timeline based on picking apart stupid evidence.

3) You're doing your whole "I refuse to accept any evidence that messes with my precious ALttP" thing again.

Better than refusing to accept any evidence that messes with your precious... Sound & Drama? AST? I'm not even sure what you're trying to maintain anymore, there's nothing you're not destroying by doing this - what are you even arguing for? Hell, I think that prior to TP's release, the Triforce had never left the Sacred Realm between the creation and ALttP, so you're the one fucking things up, as I pointed out and as you predictably neglected to acknowledge. Not to mention my proving that there's no real inaccuracy because there's no reason for ALttP to describe every event that has ever happened in Hyrule relating to the Triforce, including one we have no reason to believe was actually included in common legends.

I thought OoT WAS the IW? And wasn't OoT the IW in 1998, and didn't it have a plothole separating it from ALttP in 1998? 2003 changed nothing.

You're really bad at meaninglessly twisting crap. OoT WAS the IW, note the past tense. 2002 (which is when both TWW and ALttP GBA were first released) changed a whole assload because it introduced the plothole separating it from ALttP. Why the hell did you end that sentence in 1998, then add a non-sequitur sentence about five years later, as though it proves something?

Because Zelda's continuity is retroactive, and thus always subject to change.

We're talking about ALttP's plot, not continuity.

The Triforce was left behind at creation.
People searched for the Triforce where it was left behind.

Why reference creation as the starting point? Why not just say "a golden relic existed in Hyrule" like in the original games?

Why the FUCK are you asking a question I already completely answered and debunked? Nice reading. They linked it directly to the creation BECAUSE THERE WAS NO PREVIOUS GAME IN WHICH THE TRIFORCE LEFT THE SACRED REALM. And right now, there would be no reason to alter the legend because of TP - TP just isn't relevant to ALttP. Too bad they weren't writing text in 1991 or 2002 for a game in 2006. They mentioned the creation because it's part of the history of Hyrule which IS relevant to ALttP, so it would make no sense to leave that out. That doesn't mean they're going to document every game since then, including GAMES THAT AREN'T OUT YET.

Even on the GBA, which doesn't detail everything because the manual is an abridged version of the story that only includes the information that was already in the intro cutscene, it's clear: the manual describes the exact events of the IW. The game explains how this relates to Ganon and the sages. This is NEWER evidence with higher canonical value than your "other media", which you keep forgetting to mention is fucking irrelevant because one of them isn't about ALttP and is non-canon, while the other is Lex-level semantic evidence, not real evidence.

Edited by Impossible, 13 December 2008 - 05:37 AM.

[Raien]

LEX IS STILL NOT RESPONDING TO MY POINT! HOORAY FOR SELECTIVE READING!

For the millionth time, how can the IW be called irrelevant to ALttP GBA when it is connected to the game's primary villain through the Dark World?

[Impossible]

The stupidest thing is that the IW is ONLY relevant to ALttP. There's nothing else for it to be a part of; it's ALttP's story. And yeah, I said that as well...

I especially love Lex's selective reading when he ignores some of my counterpoints so that he can keep making the same crappy points every time this argument happens. It's even better when he's claiming things I just debunked in my last post.

Edited by Impossible, 13 December 2008 - 06:06 AM.