Raian, I have a lot on my plate right now. The American economy, as you should know, has gone to hell in a handbasket and as things currently stand, with me carrying only one part-time job that doesn't even close to pay the bills and my fiancee not getting much business, I'm set to be $400 short on my monthly expenses. I'm finding odd-jobs to do here and there but I'm not sure how much they'll help. As such, I may not have time to respond to every argument every time I post here. Please be patient with that, and realize that the world does not revolve around you.
My "similar =/= same" argument can only work in contexts where there are significant discrepancies between the identities of two items/events.
Let me put it to you this way:
At the time of OoT-
OoT was designed as the Imprisoning War, right?
In ALttP, the Imprisoning War was supposed to be the event that showed how Ganon got the whole Triforce and wished on it, turning the Sacred Realm into the Dark World we see in ALttP, spreading darkness into Hyrule, and causing the Sacred Realm to be sealed. ALttP had stated that when Ganondorf had entered the Sacred Realm he had been "unable to figure out how to return to the light world," and the location of the Sacred Realm had been "lost to those chosen" and was only "rediscovered" by Ganondorf.
OoT didn't cover all of these plot points. Ganondorf did
not get the entire Triforce, he had
not been "unable to figure out how to return to the light world," and the location of the Sacred Realm was still rather known to members of the royal family, to the point that they actively guarded its keys. The latter two could be dismissed as retcons, but the first point was crucial to establishing a context
for ALttP, in which Ganon's fulfilled wish and Link's mastery of the Triforce were central. OoT by itself could never directly lead into ALttP in a consistent way, but the writers had designated it as the Imprisoning War regardless.
Given
this, stated by the developers, there probably had to be either
two separate occasions in which Ganon entered the Sacred Realm, or another game had to unite the Triforce. At the time Miyamoto stated the timeline was OoT-LoZ/AoL-ALttP, which, if we took it as fact, would more or less confirm both, as Ganon appeared in LoZ and the Triforce was reunited in AoL. This probably explains why NoA said that Ganon had "escaped from the Dark World" on its description of LoZ's story; it was exactly what would have had to happen in a timeline like that. Of course most people didn't see how that timeline could work because of course OoT HAD to be ALttP's direct prequel, since it was the Imprisoning War (despite the glaring discrepancy).
TWW and TP pretty much slapped these people in the face, as OoT was now impossible to be ALttP's direct prequel (even though this was true in 1998, and basically confirmed by a developer statement).
What does this mean for ALttP? Well, it means that OoT, as the IW, never connected directly to the game anyway, despite being the IW. Either OoT's status as the IW have changed and Nintendo has decided to put the IW back immediately before ALttP (which is debatable) or there are two separate invasions of the Sacred Realm by Ganon, one in OoT and one prior to ALttP (which is true in either case). I conclude that only the latter is true, especially after considering that OoT was never touted as ALttP's direct prequel (that was something the fans decided themselves, in contradiction to the developer statements).
Since Ganon's wish on the Triforce (which didn't happen in OoT) was said to have been what changed the Sacred Realm into the Dark World we see in ALttP, I conclude that Ganon's wish on the Triforce didn't happen in the IW in 1998, and thus there's no pressing reason for it to have happened in the IW now. The context of Ganon's activities in the IW (as of 1998) doesn't fit the context of Ganon's activities in ALttP (and never did), and the 2002 rerelease failed to change this.
The first is the most obvious. It is established that the Dark Tribe invaded Hyrule many years before Ganondorf's army invaded Hyrule, due to the fact that the Twili had established peace long before Ganondorf invaded the realm. Midna highlights the fact that Ganondorf's magic could not be felt until after peace time. I have heard it argued that Ganondorf could have lingered within the Twilight Realm for hundreds of years, but if Ganondorf was drawn to Zant's malice, he could not have avoided the Dark Tribe when they were still full of greed.
Doesn't Ganon say that he drew of Midna's ancestors malice and grew strong again? I'm sure it's her ancestors he's referring to in that scene because immediately before that he talks about their lack of true power leading to their downfall, and none of the modern Twili are even concerned about power aside from Zant. So wouldn't it be the case that he probably
does enter there at least during the Shadow Clan's lifetimes (but is probably somewhat weakened)?
The second is an impression created by the description of Ganondorf's invasion. In Lanayru's speech, the Dark Tribe was defined by their dark magic, which framed them as a collective conscience, even though a hierarchy was established later. Conventional narrative structure would demand that the Dark Tribe's defining trait would be used to identify them in later discussion, which Midna and Zant comply with. But Ganondorf's army is given no identity, which is very noticeable simply because it creates an impression that they are not important to the story, which is a stark contradiction from the Dark Tribe's identity.
For all we know it could have been Ganondorf's band of thieves that inevitably
became the Twili.
But, anyway, it's a conclusion I've seen many come to, even though I agree with you that it's pretty circumstantial.
Of course, I think the same of Ganon's wish being a part of the Imprisoning War- it was certainly true in 1991, but that was changed in 1998 when Ganon was shown not to receive a wish when he touched the Triforce.
Attempting to intepret events literally is the reason why theorists ask if the Dark Tribe were comprised of Shadow Links. But if you compare the words with the images, you can see how symbols within the images are created and identified. When Lanayru refers to the creation of the world, we see the creation of a green hill. The green hill depicts an image of nature and harmony, which Lanayru describes the world. When Lanayru refers to the people living in the world, we see Link and Ilia. At peace time, they look at each other with happy expressions, which become blank as Lanayru refers to their consumption by greed.
What this ultimately establishes is that a literal text is depicted with symbolic imagery. As such, when Lanayru literally refers to fighting over Hyrule, the symbolic depiction is Link running toward the Triforce; Hyrule's symbol. And as such, TP does not place the fighting in the context of people trying to get the Triforce.
Consumed by greed in what sense? ALttP asserts that people were consumed by greed in the context of greed for the Triforce, and since the Triforce is portrayed as the object here... It's true that some are vying for control of Hyrule, but Hyrule is governed by the Triforce. TP doesn't place Ganondorf's invasion in the context of trying to get the Triforce either, but we know this is true from outside sources. It is the same with the people of greed.
Why do you think that the creation story is not itself fundamental to the development of ALttP's story? Was it not included in ALttP GBA's manual in order to set the stage for the events that take place during the game?
It set the stage for the Imprisoning War, which in turn tells us the origins of the seal. We have to assume that the Imprisoning War either no longer happens in a direct progression from the creation (which I think is contradicted by TP's reference to the greedy conflicts, though of course you disagree) or that ALttP no longer happens in a direct progression from the IW (which was established already in 1998 and OoT's distance from ALttP has only been reemphasized in other games).
None of these games suggest that an event relating to the Sacred Realm did or did not occur in-between these progressions, and the resulting logic that the creation story must directly progress into the Imprisoning War is inherently flawed as a result.
I should think that the sheer fact that the creation story is the reference point serves as an implication in and of itself that the Triforce's placement in the creation story (stated in the same prologue) is its placement in the events that are said to follow (stated in the same prologue). Otherwise the prologue's description of the progression of events is confusing and unclear.
I personally do not see this problem with Ganon's seizure of the Triforce, as the prologue that you presume it is part of never mentions it. Thus, ALttP does
not suggest that an event relating to the Sacred Realm did or did not occur in-between the IW and ALttP. We're coming to converse conclusions using the same evidence, but the amount of assumption is the same.
Edited by Lexxi Aileron, 14 December 2008 - 11:32 AM.
