93 replies to this topic

[FDL]

Argh. I appear to have a line fault, my time is short, hope this response gets through. ¬.¬

There's also the fact that Zelda gives Link the Ocarina of Time to him in the MM flashback. How could she give to Link in the past when he left with her adult self in the future? Either his child body had a past version of the instrument on his person and he gave it back her... again and she gave it to him... again. Or the adult Zelda sent Link back far enough in time when her child self was still in possession of the ocarina in the past.

Glad you brought that one up SOAP. This was one of my biggest arguments for the whole theory on Ocarina's ending, and it cannot be disputed as easily as the 'Door of Time' clause because that's simply a gameplay mechanic and for all we know can be opened from the inside; not to mention we've seen Navi fly right out the damn window.

No, the Door of Time being open is not, in fact, a gameplay mechanic. Or rather, while it may technically be, the fact that Zelda acknowledges it's open in the past makes the "gameplay mechanic" argument null & void.

If Link was really send back to a time *after* he pulled the sword out then closing the Door of Time would trap Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm he already entered; true it probably wouldn't be as strong as the Sage's seal, and nowhere near as powerful as the perfect-seal, but this is unimportant because that's clearly not what happened in Twilight Princess. If Ganondorf got his Triforce of Power those Ancient Sages would never have been able to capture him, period; basically I'm choosing the sequence of events that meshes best with this Mirror Chamber scene...if new evidence comes to light then I'll change my theories accordingly.

No, that's not necessarily correct. He could have come back after Ganondorf had already left the Sacred Realm. As for the idea that Ganondorf automatically got castle destroying abilities, that's ludicrous. In TWW, we see two people get Triforce pieces in their bodies, and neither one gains any new awesome powers. Link gets nothing and Tetra gets a new appearance, and that's all. Fact is, Ganondorf would not automatically be given incredible new powers as far as we know. And it's during the time that he's building an army and figuring out how to use the Triforce that he'd be vulnerable. Not only that, but these sages aren;t just some old guys who moan and groan [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. They also have magical powers and could possibly even be the creators of the Master Sword. It's quite possible that the chains were ones made specifically to prevent him from breaking free, but he was able to break them when the Triforce of Power kicked in fully.

What makes you think he instantly knew how to use it's full strength? Hell, he was 'killed' by Link in OoT before he actually used it to the full, and even then he doesn't use the Technique of Darkness or any dimension-bending skills.

The sequence in TP was homaging all of that, right down to the music.

We're talking about a megalomaniac who speaks in the third person about himself. He treats Link like a child, underestimated the Triforce of Courage right up until his arrogance got the better of him. The ruining of his own tower and wrathful transformation into the monsterous Ganon proves he cannot control the true power of the Triforce of Power and can only use it destructively.

As soon as he got the ToP in OoT he easily destroyed Hyrule Castle, spread evil through the temples and took over the enitre kingdom; please note this didn't quite happen in TP until he escaped the Twilight Realm using Zant.

EDIT: What was I arguing again? F**king distractions.

I mentioned it above, but there's no reason to believe the castle being destroyed was directly because of the Triforce of Power. Don't you think, as Fyxe, HoL, and I have mentioned dozens of times, that the Mirror Scene is referencing the end of OoT? If he was unable to control it's full power then, what makes you think he'd be able to in a time period even earlier than that?

My point is that Ganondorf being defeated in TP before being executed does not prove that the Triforce of Power suddenly popped into his posession for no apparent reason as soon as he was stabbed.

I wish people wouldn't lend credence to such an unfounded theory.

But... but... There's no evidence to establish that he did have it before being captured either! You can only assume one way or the other, and neither theory can be proven!

There are things that can point us in certain directions though. The people who believe in one theory think the "divine prank" phrase takes presidence over everything, others do not.

Did he? You have no idea how easily he did it, or how long it took.

You saw how quickly he collapsed his own tower right? About 3 measly minutes.

I believe Fyxe covered this above so I won't bother.

My point is that Ganondorf being defeated in TP before being executed does not prove that the Triforce of Power suddenly popped into his posession for no apparent reason as soon as he was stabbed.

Of course not, as TP states he was chosen to weld power; let's reflect on the 'divine prank' clause again.

Even if he was destined to wield power, why did it happen to appear right when he was being executed? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

If Zelda can send Link back in time, why can't she send the ocarina back in time to her past self? Or maybe it travels back with Link, and he returns it to child Zelda, who later gives it back to him when he leaves Hyrule.

She can't - the Ocarina is being used to send Link back. Catch Twenty-Two.

I already mentioned this, Link giving away his Ocarina means he'll have to get it again. It makes even less sense to think that the one person who is singular in the two timelines would give away one of his possessions and then have it again somehow when he went back in time. I would think it'd be similar to how Link can steal the Ocarina back from the Skull Kid in MM. After he does so, he always has the Ocarina and the Skull Kid never does. It's the same thing. If he were to give it to the Skull Kid or anyone and then go back, who ever he gave it to would have it. The Ocarina and the Hero of Time are special in that way.

If Link can go back in time and change the past, then he doesn't even need to bother fighting Ganon. He could go straight back the instant he wakes up and avert the whole mess.

Link couldn't go that far back in time with only the Master Sword, however a Sage can send him further back (Princess Zelda).

But then Link could be sent back to before Ganondorf even attacked the Deku Tree and murder him when he entered the forest. Explain why they didn't do that if it's so logical?

[spunky-monkey]

Frankly, I don't think we should bother. It's just a figure of speech simply because the Sages didn't know he had it.

I believe he didn't have it until just after he got executed, hence their OMGZ facial expressions.

She can't send it afterwards?

Not possible, apparently.

We don't know when exactly Link was sent back. Link has the Triforce of Courage. Since there can't be two Links in one timeline, that means Ganondorf must have at least got the Triforce.

Designing video games doesn't require you to be an expert on quantum theory, not to mention magic and science don't mix.

No, the Door of Time being open is not, in fact, a gameplay mechanic. Or rather, while it may technically be, the fact that Zelda acknowledges it's open in the past makes the "gameplay mechanic" argument null & void.

Using that twisted logic if Nintendo paid any attention to detail then the TP's Temple of Time wouldn't be located deep within the Lost Woods. If time-travel worked as well as you lot claimed then when Link time-travels back to when the building was intact there should still be a Master Sword -in- the pedestal, but no.

No, that's not necessarily correct. He could have come back after Ganondorf had already left the Sacred Realm.

*sigh* Okay. What -exact moment in time- did he exactly travel back to? Either way you've left him with a ridiculously small window which makes this theory virtually unworkable.

As for the idea that Ganondorf automatically got castle destroying abilities, that's ludicrous.

Ganondorf using dark magic? Preposterous! Changing into a giant pig monster? Absurd! People here not using irrational arguments? Poppycock! ;P

In TWW, we see two people get Triforce pieces in their bodies, and neither one gains any new awesome powers. Link gets nothing and Tetra gets a new appearance, and that's all.

Think most people will agree that RinkyDinkLink is too stupid to control the Triforce of Courage. >.>

Fact is, Ganondorf would not automatically be given incredible new powers as far as we know. And it's during the time that he's building an army and figuring out how to use the Triforce that he'd be vulnerable.

Oh dear another assumption, and not even a very good one. If Ganondorf was as vulnerable as you say he would have been captured and executed in Ocarina of Time, which I recall did not take place considering the whole "Great King of Evil" backstory given to OoT adult Link.

Not only that, but these sages aren;t just some old guys who moan and groan [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. They also have magical powers and could possibly even be the creators of the Master Sword. It's quite possible that the chains were ones made specifically to prevent him from breaking free, but he was able to break them when the Triforce of Power kicked in fully.

Never once said the Ancient Sages were powerless so the above argument nullifies itself beautifully.

I mentioned it above, but there's no reason to believe the castle being destroyed was directly because of the Triforce of Power.

[Sarcasm]Because Majora's Moon clearly destroyed it. Silly me.[/Sarcasm]

I already mentioned this, Link giving away his Ocarina means he'll have to get it again. It makes even less sense to think that the one person who is singular in the two timelines would give away one of his possessions and then have it again somehow when he went back in time. I would think it'd be similar to how Link can steal the Ocarina back from the Skull Kid in MM.

Again, game designers and storywriters are oblivious to explaining time paradoxes as such. I've come up with a plausible theory that attempts to explain these inconsistences which, like everyone elses, can neither be proved or disproved without debunking your own theories on the game's chronology.

If Link can go back in time and change the past, then he doesn't even need to bother fighting Ganon. He could
But then Link could be sent back to before Ganondorf even attacked the Deku Tree and murder him when he entered the forest. Explain why they didn't do that if it's so logical?

I never said they (Zelda) didn't. ^^ There's a indeterminable gap between Link arriving back in the Temple of Time and the Castle Courtyard scene ending.

[Fyxe]

Hoo boy, I have decided that Ricky lives in his own little dimension where the Zelda storyline bends to his whim. Thus this argument is as pointless as ever.

Seriously.

She can't send it afterwards?

Not possible, apparently.

Oh, right, well done, thanks for telling me, y'know, because the game didn't. Tell us more mystical truths about the Zelda plot, for we merely look at the games, but thanks to you, the Oracle of Aonuma, we can learn the truth! THE TRUTH MUST BE HEARD.

[Jumbie]

She can't send it afterwards?

Since the Ocarina of Time is Zelda's only instrument of sending someone/something through time, how should she send the instrument itself to the past? That's like delivering a piano in a cargo box while you're still playing it, and while you actually intend to stay back at home. A very simple paradox.

Ganon is going to have the ToP before the execution scene however you swing it.

I think that's true, but only if we assume the power of the chosen ones in TP really is the Triforce. Personally I'm undecided between Ganondorf receiving the ToP before the execution scene, or no one receiving the actual Triforce pieces at all. The latter would be very annoying, but I can't rule it out any longer.

No, the Door of Time being open is not, in fact, a gameplay mechanic. Or rather, while it may technically be, the fact that Zelda acknowledges it's open in the past makes the "gameplay mechanic" argument null & void.

She never says it's open - she just says Link has to close it. That may mean that he first passes through it from the sword chamber, then closes it again.

In TWW, we see two people get Triforce pieces in their bodies, and neither one gains any new awesome powers. Link gets nothing and Tetra gets a new appearance, and that's all.

[sarc]I actually happen to think the Triforce of Courage gives its wielder infinite courage, the Triforce of Wisdom gives its wielder infinite wisdom, and the Triforce of Power gives its wielder infinite power... I may be totally wrong on that though, as I admit it's quite the far-fetched assumption...[/sarc]

Fact is, Ganondorf would not automatically be given incredible new powers as far as we know. And it's during the time that he's building an army and figuring out how to use the Triforce that he'd be vulnerable.

That sounds good. I agree that it wasn't the ToP that gave Ganondorf such great attack powers. Ganondorf has possessed the power of darkness long before he received the ToP, as TP states (even the NoA version does!). TP further agrees with ALttP that Ganondorf was a Demon Thief, a wielder of evil magic, who sought a way into the Sacred Realm. What does that tell to us? That the ToP was NOT the source of his power. He was a powerful wizard already when he first encountered young Link (just like Twinrova, btw); the ToP mainly amplified his stamina, and gave him abilities to transform and to reanimate.

Even if he was destined to wield power, why did it happen to appear right when he was being executed? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Oh! That's actually a very good question. Imagine the sages had spared him his life - then, going with the divine prank theory, Ganondorf would never have received the ToP he was destined to hold! That's a very good argument against that theory.

[MikePetersSucks]

Since the Ocarina of Time is Zelda's only instrument of sending someone/something through time, how should she send the instrument itself to the past? That's like delivering a piano in a cargo box while you're still playing it, and while you actually intend to stay back at home. A very simple paradox.

Uh...The same way Link was able to take the Ocarina back WITH him every other time. Even if the Ocarina wasn't sent back in time, though, that was the Future Ocarina. The Child Timeline Ocarina should still be in his possession.

I think that's true, but only if we assume the power of the chosen ones in TP really is the Triforce. Personally I'm undecided between Ganondorf receiving the ToP before the execution scene, or no one receiving the actual Triforce pieces at all. The latter would be very annoying, but I can't rule it out any longer.

How can they NOT have Triforce pieces? They have the marks, they exhibit Triforce-y powers, they call it the Power of the Gods, etc.

She never says it's open - she just says Link has to close it. That may mean that he first passes through it from the sword chamber, then closes it again.

"It's not open, but you need to close it, Link." Right, makes sense.

[Showsni]

Since the Ocarina of Time is Zelda's only instrument of sending someone/something through time, how should she send the instrument itself to the past? That's like delivering a piano in a cargo box while you're still playing it, and while you actually intend to stay back at home. A very simple paradox.

Since the Master Sword is Link's only instrument of sending himself through time, how could he send the sword itself to the past/future? Oh wait...

You're thinking too real world. Sure, you can fire an arrow (Link) with a bow (ocarina) but not the bow itself; but this is a magic ocarina. If I have a magic wand that can make things disappear, you're telling me I can't use it to make the wand itself vanish? How on earth do you know that? It's magic!

Besides, I use the travelling in spirit theory, which states the child ocarina never leaves him anyway.

[SOAP]

If Zelda can send Link back in time, why can't she send the ocarina back in time to her past self? Or maybe it travels back with Link, and he returns it to child Zelda, who later gives it back to him when he leaves Hyrule.

Why do any of taht when she could just send Link back to a time when her child self still had the Ocarina of Time in the past.

If Link can go back in time and change the past, then he doesn't even need to bother fighting Ganon. He could go straight back the instant he wakes up and avert the whole mess.

Well that's pretty much the idea of Zelda giving Link back his lost child hood.

[Jumbie]

Uh...The same way Link was able to take the Ocarina back WITH him every other time.

During OoT's normal time travels, as well as in MM, it is Link who simultaneously plays and travels back in time with the Ocarina - something that is entirely different from Zelda using it to send Link back in time. By logic, the Ocarina can only travel back in time if its player is the traveller, but it cannot accompany the traveller while someone else makes that person travel. As for why that is, I explained it in my last post.

Even if the Ocarina wasn't sent back in time, though, that was the Future Ocarina. The Child Timeline Ocarina should still be in his possession.

Only if he came back after drawing the Master Sword, which I deny.
Link left the Ocarina with adult Zelda, arrived without Ocarina in the past, young Zelda in the new timeline has had the Ocarina all the time, and before MM happens, she gives it to Link for the first time.

How can they NOT have Triforce pieces? They have the marks, they exhibit Triforce-y powers, they call it the Power of the Gods, etc.

The marks could be just that: marks. Like in AoL and Oracles. A Triforce mark works and looks different each time, so in TP they could have only one piece glowing, the appropriate one for all three who bear the marks. Link and Zelda have the same triangle glowing, anyway...

In TP, Ganondorf does not sense the presence of the other Triforce bearers as he normally should (according to OoT and TWW). His natural objective should be to steal the pieces of Link and Zelda, but he doesn't care about that at all - instead he's completely content with having what he deems the "absolute power". It's not even clear if he knows two others are chosen by the gods as well. Although we are shown Zelda's empty body while Ganondorf speaks about being chosen, this might only be meant to show us the Triforce statue in front of which Zelda hangs.

The word Triforce is carefully avoided in the game, as if to make a statement. Having the power of the ones chosen by the gods is also said in OoT in connection to the Light Arrows, it isn't proven to be linked to having the Triforce pieces themselves.

The Triforce is not reunited in the end of TP, nor does a Triforce piece leave Ganondorf's dead body. We just get to see how his mark fades, so it could be just that. If it was, that would mean that the Goddesses never granted him the ToP, which makes the divine prank theory possible and the execution scene a lot less shocking.

Of course I don't know why this mark would make one that powerful and protect Link and Zelda from the Twilight, but after all, this could be something new introduced in TP and not seen before.

I really wouldn't like it if it was that way, but the oddities are certainly very troubesome, and they've all been discussed before.

"It's not open, but you need to close it, Link." Right, makes sense.

More sense than that weird thinking about the Ocarina sending itself away.
Zelda has no idea how exactly things stand in the time she sends Link to. She just knows Link opened the Door of Time, that it needs to be closed again in her timeline, and that the Door must be shut in the new timeline Link goes to, as well.

Since the Master Sword is Link's only instrument of sending himself through time, how could he send the sword itself to the past/future? Oh wait...

There exist two copies of the Master Sword, one in either timeline, and neither one ever leaves its respective timeline.
In the past timeline, the MS has never been as much as touched.
In the future timeline, the Master Sword was drawn, taken to the Sacred Realm, taken outside, wielded by Link, and in the end probably put back to the pedestal when Link disappeared to the past.

You're thinking too real world. Sure, you can fire an arrow (Link) with a bow (ocarina) but not the bow itself; but this is a magic ocarina. If I have a magic wand that can make things disappear, you're telling me I can't use it to make the wand itself vanish? How on earth do you know that? It's magic!

Yes, I'd tell you that. Magic doesn't mean that everything can work without any logic. It means that unusual things are possible, but there should be an internal logic if you like to have a serious narrative.

A pair of scissors can cut other objects, but it can never cut itself.
A pencil can draw on other objects, but it can never draw onto itself.
A wand can make things disappear, but it can never make itself disappear.

Besides, I use the travelling in spirit theory, which states the child ocarina never leaves him anyway.

Eh, I just realized that I've argued that same theory referring to the Master Sword. ^^;

Edited by Jumbie, 18 November 2007 - 05:44 PM.

[Fyxe]

Play a song on the Ocarina, Ocarina disappears, voila. It's not really the Ocarina itself that's causing the magic, it's the sound it makes.

By your logic, Link would end up leaving the Ocarina behind every time he played the Prelude of Time or any other warping magic.

[Jumbie]

I made a little mistake, in fact I'm also with the theory Showsni just mentioned (and which you, too, suggested long ago, IIRC).
The fact that Link has a different body in both times instead of travelling to the past in his adult body must of course mean that only his spirit travels. So, just like Link's body never leaves a time, the Master Sword and the Ocarina of Time never do, either. I guess we agree about that?

Play a song on the Ocarina, Ocarina disappears, voila. It's not really the Ocarina itself that's causing the magic, it's the sound it makes.

By your logic, Link would end up leaving the Ocarina behind every time he played the Prelude of Time or any other warping magic.

But shouldn't it then be Zelda who disappears along with the Ocarina that she's playing? I think we see Link disappear while Zelda stills holds the instrument, but I'm not sure...

Btw, the final time travel is very uncommon with Link's body vanishing from the future forever. This may explain why he doesn't end up at the same point of time as he always did when putting the Master Sword back, and thus explain how the timeline split happens.

[Chaltab]

Btw, the final time travel is very uncommon with Link's body vanishing from the future forever. This may explain why he doesn't end up at the same point of time as he always did when putting the Master Sword back, and thus explain how the timeline split happens.

It's even more uncommon that it is acted on Link by an outside force and uses a very different method than all previous Time Travel. Link used the Pedastal of Time to travel, not the Ocarina itself. What Zelda did can be mroe easily likened to Majora's Mask.

When Link plays the song in that game, a temporal vortex opens and he seems to 'fall' through it, losing all his money and ammunition. However, his body retains things such as acquired Heart Pieces and the Magic Meter. Apply this retroactively to Ocarina. Link's timeline was essentially re-wound. Magic adornments--IE the Master Sword and the the Triforce of Courage seen on his hand at the end--stayed with him.

We don't know the point to which it was re-wound, largely due to conflicting signals--the Door of Time is open, but Zelda is in the palace like nothing has gone wrong.

Edited by Chaltab, 18 November 2007 - 06:44 PM.

[LionHarted]

Whatever Zelda did, we know Link returned to a time after the portal to the Sacred Realm had been opened because he is bathed in its light when he returns to the past.

[Chaltab]

Whatever Zelda did, we know Link returned to a time after the portal to the Sacred Realm had been opened because he is bathed in its light when he returns to the past.

I always took the blue fiery stuff to simply be the time vortex that dropped him off back in the past.

[LionHarted]

I always took the blue fiery stuff to simply be the time vortex that dropped him off back in the past.

Why not use one consistent with the time vortex that took him from the future?

[Chaltab]

I always took the blue fiery stuff to simply be the time vortex that dropped him off back in the past.

Why not use one consistent with the time vortex that took him from the future?

Because that one was created by the Pedestal of Time while the Ocarina created the one at the end of the game. (Of course, you may be right, but I always took the game to imply that the portal to the Sacred Realm was only open long enough to let Link and Ganondorf in the first time.)

[LionHarted]

So Link arrived in the past from a different portal than the one Zelda sent him through?

[FDL]

Frankly, I don't think we should bother. It's just a figure of speech simply because the Sages didn't know he had it.

I believe he didn't have it until just after he got executed, hence their OMGZ facial expressions.

What about Ganondorf's OMGZ knowing smile? The Sages could just be surprised that he was revived.

We don't know when exactly Link was sent back. Link has the Triforce of Courage. Since there can't be two Links in one timeline, that means Ganondorf must have at least got the Triforce.

Designing video games doesn't require you to be an expert on quantum theory, not to mention magic and science don't mix.

Oh, so everything that points toward your theory is on purpose and everything that goes against it is stupid game designers?

No, the Door of Time being open is not, in fact, a gameplay mechanic. Or rather, while it may technically be, the fact that Zelda acknowledges it's open in the past makes the "gameplay mechanic" argument null & void.

Using that twisted logic if Nintendo paid any attention to detail then the TP's Temple of Time wouldn't be located deep within the Lost Woods. If time-travel worked as well as you lot claimed then when Link time-travels back to when the building was intact there should still be a Master Sword -in- the pedestal, but no.

That doesn't mean a damn thing. That actually is a gameplay mechanic, as it has nothing to do with the story. With the situation I'm discussing, Zelda actually says "Place the Master Sword in the Pedestal and close the Door of Time" which tells us that the Door was in fact open. It's not twisted logic, really. In fact, some would say basing a theory on a "divine prank" is stupid and twisted.

No, that's not necessarily correct. He could have come back after Ganondorf had already left the Sacred Realm.

*sigh* Okay. What -exact moment in time- did he exactly travel back to? Either way you've left him with a ridiculously small window which makes this theory virtually unworkable.

You don't need to know when, as several times work. This theory isn't unworkable either when your theory is based ENTIRELY on the idea that Link used the Triforce to warn Zelda against Ganondorf getting the Triforce and that Ganondorf then got the Triforce at the exact moment he was executed. THAT's illogical, far more so than Link being sent back after the Triforce split.

As for the idea that Ganondorf automatically got castle destroying abilities, that's ludicrous.

Ganondorf using dark magic? Preposterous! Changing into a giant pig monster? Absurd! People here not using irrational arguments? Poppycock! ;P

I forgot the part where Ganondorf says "I'M SO POWERFUL I COULD DESTROY A CASTLE GRUMBLE GRUMBLE". Having the power of darkness, even magnified by the Triforce of Power, has never been confirmed as what he used to destroy a castle.

In TWW, we see two people get Triforce pieces in their bodies, and neither one gains any new awesome powers. Link gets nothing and Tetra gets a new appearance, and that's all.

Think most people will agree that RinkyDinkLink is too stupid to control the Triforce of Courage. >.>

That's a great argument. And you say I'm twisted...

Fact is, Ganondorf would not automatically be given incredible new powers as far as we know. And it's during the time that he's building an army and figuring out how to use the Triforce that he'd be vulnerable.

Oh dear another assumption, and not even a very good one. If Ganondorf was as vulnerable as you say he would have been captured and executed in Ocarina of Time, which I recall did not take place considering the whole "Great King of Evil" backstory given to OoT adult Link.

Apparently they didn't know where he was. You can guess that from the fact that the Spirit Temple is called his hideout. You're awful condescending for a guy who complained that I needed an attitude adjustment.

Not only that, but these sages aren't just some old guys who moan and groan [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. They also have magical powers and could possibly even be the creators of the Master Sword. It's quite possible that the chains were ones made specifically to prevent him from breaking free, but he was able to break them when the Triforce of Power kicked in fully.

Never once said the Ancient Sages were powerless so the above argument nullifies itself beautifully.

You implied it. You said, with no basis whatsoever I might add, that Ganondorf would automatically be given powers that the Sages(who needed an opportunity to attack him anyway) could not match.

*Continued in next post*

[FDL]

I mentioned it above, but there's no reason to believe the castle being destroyed was directly because of the Triforce of Power.

[Sarcasm]Because Majora's Moon clearly destroyed it. Silly me.[/Sarcasm]

It could be that giant army of monsters that destroyed it. Naw, couldn't be! They've only ripped an island apart before!

I already mentioned this, Link giving away his Ocarina means he'll have to get it again. It makes even less sense to think that the one person who is singular in the two timelines would give away one of his possessions and then have it again somehow when he went back in time. I would think it'd be similar to how Link can steal the Ocarina back from the Skull Kid in MM.

Again, game designers and storywriters are oblivious to explaining time paradoxes as such. I've come up with a plausible theory that attempts to explain these inconsistences which, like everyone elses, can neither be proved or disproved without debunking your own theories on the game's chronology.

Again, great argument. Really top-notch. I could easily claim stupid things about the developers without any backing just as you're doing, but I won't.

If Link can go back in time and change the past, then he doesn't even need to bother fighting Ganon. He could
But then Link could be sent back to before Ganondorf even attacked the Deku Tree and murder him when he entered the forest. Explain why they didn't do that if it's so logical?

I never said they (Zelda) didn't. ^^ There's a indeterminable gap between Link arriving back in the Temple of Time and the Castle Courtyard scene ending.

But they, y'know, didn't. Ganondorf is still alive.

No, the Door of Time being open is not, in fact, a gameplay mechanic. Or rather, while it may technically be, the fact that Zelda acknowledges it's open in the past makes the "gameplay mechanic" argument null & void.

She never says it's open - she just says Link has to close it. That may mean that he first passes through it from the sword chamber, then closes it again.

It didn't need to be open for him to leave. He could have easily played a song. And the Master Sword supposedly still needed to be placed in the pedestal anyway.

In TWW, we see two people get Triforce pieces in their bodies, and neither one gains any new awesome powers. Link gets nothing and Tetra gets a new appearance, and that's all.

[sarc]I actually happen to think the Triforce of Courage gives its wielder infinite courage, the Triforce of Wisdom gives its wielder infinite wisdom, and the Triforce of Power gives its wielder infinite power... I may be totally wrong on that though, as I admit it's quite the far-fetched assumption...[/sarc]

I don't know what you're being sarcastic about specifically, but the fact that he's been beaten within an inch of his life on numerous occasions tells me Ganondorf doesn't have limitless power. Zelda doesn't seem infinitely wise either.

Fact is, Ganondorf would not automatically be given incredible new powers as far as we know. And it's during the time that he's building an army and figuring out how to use the Triforce that he'd be vulnerable.

That sounds good. I agree that it wasn't the ToP that gave Ganondorf such great attack powers. Ganondorf has possessed the power of darkness long before he received the ToP, as TP states (even the NoA version does!). TP further agrees with ALttP that Ganondorf was a Demon Thief, a wielder of evil magic, who sought a way into the Sacred Realm. What does that tell to us? That the ToP was NOT the source of his power. He was a powerful wizard already when he first encountered young Link (just like Twinrova, btw); the ToP mainly amplified his stamina, and gave him abilities to transform and to reanimate.

I'd say control over monsters could be part of it as well. Hell, even his dark power could be amplified, but that doesn't mean he was given automatic castle-destroying powers.

Even if he was destined to wield power, why did it happen to appear right when he was being executed? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Oh! That's actually a very good question. Imagine the sages had spared him his life - then, going with the divine prank theory, Ganondorf would never have received the ToP he was destined to hold! That's a very good argument against that theory.

Yeah, I'm glad someone is being reasonable about this.

If Link can go back in time and change the past, then he doesn't even need to bother fighting Ganon. He could go straight back the instant he wakes up and avert the whole mess.

Well that's pretty much the idea of Zelda giving Link back his lost child hood.

No, the point of giving Link back his lost childhood was so that he didn't waste seven years of his life sleeping.

*Continued in next post*

[FDL]

Uh...The same way Link was able to take the Ocarina back WITH him every other time.

During OoT's normal time travels, as well as in MM, it is Link who simultaneously plays and travels back in time with the Ocarina - something that is entirely different from Zelda using it to send Link back in time. By logic, the Ocarina can only travel back in time if its player is the traveller, but it cannot accompany the traveller while someone else makes that person travel. As for why that is, I explained it in my last post.

I explained this already, I believe. In MM Link can steal the Ocarina back from Skull Kid and the Skull Kid never has it again. If he gave it away wouldn't something similar happen? I.E. wouldn't he no longer have it?

How can they NOT have Triforce pieces? They have the marks, they exhibit Triforce-y powers, they call it the Power of the Gods, etc.

The marks could be just that: marks. Like in AoL and Oracles. A Triforce mark works and looks different each time, so in TP they could have only one piece glowing, the appropriate one for all three who bear the marks. Link and Zelda have the same triangle glowing, anyway...

In TP, Ganondorf does not sense the presence of the other Triforce bearers as he normally should (according to OoT and TWW). His natural objective should be to steal the pieces of Link and Zelda, but he doesn't care about that at all - instead he's completely content with having what he deems the "absolute power". It's not even clear if he knows two others are chosen by the gods as well. Although we are shown Zelda's empty body while Ganondorf speaks about being chosen, this might only be meant to show us the Triforce statue in front of which Zelda hangs.

WHy do you think he kidnapped Zelda and waited for Link in his castle? He was holding her hostage for a reason, and I'd say it's likely that it was for the same reason he held her hostage in OoT and TWW. That's why he seems "content", and that's why nothing much happens after the Twilight is pushed back. Ganondorf is waiting for Link and Midna.

The word Triforce is carefully avoided in the game, as if to make a statement. Having the power of the ones chosen by the gods is also said in OoT in connection to the Light Arrows, it isn't proven to be linked to having the Triforce pieces themselves.

The Triforce is not reunited in the end of TP, nor does a Triforce piece leave Ganondorf's dead body. We just get to see how his mark fades, so it could be just that. If it was, that would mean that the Goddesses never granted him the ToP, which makes the divine prank theory possible and the execution scene a lot less shocking.

TP is vague about several things, that's why we're having these debates. It doesn't really mean anything. As for the Triforce fading, I'm not sure that really means what you think it means. The Triforce fading just means it's stopped working it's magic, it happens to Link earlier in the game and he's still chosen. I sorta think the game left Ganondorf's fate open-ending so he could possibly be revived in another game, not to tell us it's not the real Triforce.

Of course I don't know why this mark would make one that powerful and protect Link and Zelda from the Twilight, but after all, this could be something new introduced in TP and not seen before.

I really wouldn't like it if it was that way, but the oddities are certainly very troubesome, and they've all been discussed before.

I think they'd go into more detail with it if it was a new thing.

I always took the blue fiery stuff to simply be the time vortex that dropped him off back in the past.

Why not use one consistent with the time vortex that took him from the future?

Because that one was created by the Pedestal of Time while the Ocarina created the one at the end of the game. (Of course, you may be right, but I always took the game to imply that the portal to the Sacred Realm was only open long enough to let Link and Ganondorf in the first time.)

I think he means that the portal shown when Zelda plays the Ocarina of Time is different compared to the one shown when Link returns to the past.

[Showsni]

I love how OoT's time travel is still causing massive debates. How long has it been out now?

By comparison, OoA time travel seems fine to everyone.

Why do any of taht when she could just send Link back to a time when her child self still had the Ocarina of Time in the past.

Because it's paradoxical... What happens to that era's Link? He gets erased? Still exists? And if she can change time so easily, she can do that before he's fought Ganon. She can come up to him the first time he appears in the ToT, say "Hi Link. It's me, Zelda. Can I borrow that ocarina? Okay, don't open the door to the Sacred Realm this time, whatever my younger self says. She's an idiot. See ya!"

A theory: Sheik knows so much because Link has already told her everything after he was sent back. This is how she knew the sage locations, how to defeat Ganon, etc. Your homework: does this theory work?

[Chaltab]

A theory: Sheik knows so much because Link has already told her everything after he was sent back. This is how she knew the sage locations, how to defeat Ganon, etc. Your homework: does this theory work?

If she knew everything, why did she let herself get captured at the Temple of Time?

..My basic theory is that Ganondorf having the Triforce of Power basically locked certain events in place until Link defeated him, so that it wouldn't have been possible to significantly change the past.

Edited by Chaltab, 19 November 2007 - 12:12 AM.

[Showsni]

Because Link told her she would get captured, and that as a result he would defeat Ganon. They didn't want to risk not beating him.

[Chaltab]

Because Link told her she would get captured, and that as a result he would defeat Ganon. They didn't want to risk not beating him.

I... er....

Okay, works for me.

[LionHarted]

Because Link told her she would get captured, and that as a result he would defeat Ganon. They didn't want to risk not beating him.

Better answer:

So she can give Link the Light Arrows.

[spunky-monkey]

Hoo boy, I have decided that Ricky lives in his own little dimension where the Zelda storyline bends to his whim. Thus this argument is as pointless as ever.

As usual I have no idea what you're talking about, and before you mutter something tasteless like "That doesn't surprise me" it's because you're suggesting that I'm trying to overcome my own damn theory within Zelda storyline that's laughable.

Oh, right, well done, thanks for telling me, y'know, because the game didn't. Tell us more mystical truths about the Zelda plot, for we merely look at the games, but thanks to you, the Oracle of Aonuma, we can learn the truth! THE TRUTH MUST BE HEARD.

Don't degrade yourself for speculation's sake Fyxe. >.> <.<

The Triforce is not reunited in the end of TP, nor does a Triforce piece leave Ganondorf's dead body. We just get to see how his mark fades, so it could be just that. If it was, that would mean that the Goddesses never granted him the ToP, which makes the divine prank theory possible and the execution scene a lot less shocking.

Almost like the Triforce of Power shutting down or leaving Ganondorf, thereby killing him, was the gods' last joke at his expense. You have no idea how glad I am you're in this debate.

What about Ganondorf's OMGZ knowing smile? The Sages could just be surprised that he was revived.

What OMGZ knowing smile?

Oh, so everything that points toward your theory is on purpose and everything that goes against it is stupid game designers?

That is the general idea.

That doesn't mean a damn thing. That actually is a gameplay mechanic, as it has nothing to do with the story. With the situation I'm discussing, Zelda actually says "Place the Master Sword in the Pedestal and close the Door of Time" which tells us that the Door was in fact open. It's not twisted logic, really. In fact, some would say basing a theory on a "divine prank" is stupid and twisted.

It shows how shortsighted the game's developers were in making numerous goofs. Like it or not, calling someone's theory stupid is exactly the same as dubbing it clever; both are rendered meaningless in a speculation thread FDL.

You don't need to know when, as several times work. This theory isn't unworkable either when your theory is based ENTIRELY on the idea that Link used the Triforce to warn Zelda against Ganondorf getting the Triforce and that Ganondorf then got the Triforce at the exact moment he was executed. THAT's illogical, far more so than Link being sent back after the Triforce split.

Of course you remember I originally said something bizarre happened aka "the divine prank" which caused the Triforce to split on its own. Therefore the three Triforce parts hadn't gone to those chosen by destiny yet. I believe Link was first to receive the ToC, Ganondorf and Zelda/King of Hyrule crests probably appeared much later.

I forgot the part where Ganondorf says "I'M SO POWERFUL I COULD DESTROY A CASTLE GRUMBLE GRUMBLE". Having the power of darkness, even magnified by the Triforce of Power, has never been confirmed as what he used to destroy a castle.

LOL "power of darkness" my arse. Ganondorf is simply an evil man consumed by greed who either acquires the sacred Triforce through his blood and sweat or by some other supernatural means. End of story. Bring up this issue again and you'll kindly be ignored.

Oh BEWARE Sages! Dorf-man has the oh-so-terrible power of darkness...we're not exactly sure what the hell that means...but BEWARE anyway! XD

Apparently they didn't know where he was. You can guess that from the fact that the Spirit Temple is called his hideout.

Now that's *your theory* not mine.

You implied it. You said, with no basis whatsoever I might add, that Ganondorf would automatically be given powers that the Sages(who needed an opportunity to attack him anyway) could not match.

In order words you were ranting and momentarily forgot the argument I was making but instead of apologizing tried to be a smartarse anyway by blaming me for your own mistake assuming I wouldn't notice. Yeah. Right. Okay.

Because Link told her she would get captured, and that as a result he would defeat Ganon. They didn't want to risk not beating him.

Very funny Showsni. Zelda underestimated Ganon and didn't realise he was secretly watching Link's progress all along since his victory in the Forest Temple.

[SOAP]

Because it's paradoxical... What happens to that era's Link? He gets erased? Still exists? And if she can change time so easily, she can do that before he's fought Ganon. She can come up to him the first time he appears in the ToT, say "Hi Link. It's me, Zelda. Can I borrow that ocarina? Okay, don't open the door to the Sacred Realm this time, whatever my younger self says. She's an idiot. See ya!"

Zelda doesn't know everything, even as an adult. And even she did, she had just as much an issue with pride a Ganondorf. That's part of why she aws apologizing to Link. She got in over head, which is something someone like Zelda wouldn't admit to themselves until after Ganondorf was finally defeated nad she could see the ends didn't justify the means. So she sends Link back far enough so he can live the rest of his days in alternate reality to make up for the years she felt she had "stolen" from him.

As for Link, probably the same thing happened to him that happened to the Triforce of Courage when he brought it back with him from the future.

Of course you remember I originally said something bizarre happened aka "the divine prank" which caused the Triforce to split on its own. Therefore the three Triforce parts hadn't gone to those chosen by destiny yet. I believe Link was first to receive the ToC, Ganondorf and Zelda/King of Hyrule crests probably appeared much later.

I think that something is Link bringing back the ToC into the past. Assuming he was sent to the time you suggest, The ToC in the future shatters and when he goes into the past, the Toc is "forced" out of the Sacred Ream since he's technically still it's weilder. You do have a point though. We don't know everyone gets they're respective pieces at the same time. We just know when it splits one piece goes to the person who touches it while the other two go search for others destined to weild them. It doesn't necessarily all have to happen right away. Chances are, one or two of those chosen ones aren't even born yet. Like how Ganondorf had his piece for a while but TP Zelda and Link weren't even born yet.

Edited by SOAP, 21 November 2007 - 02:38 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

I think that something is Link bringing back the ToC into the past. Assuming he was sent to the time you suggest, The ToC in the future shatters and when he goes into the past, the Toc is "forced" out of the Sacred Ream since he's technically still it's weilder.

I'd hesitate to speculate this because technically we'd have a duplicate Triforce part in the past existing simultaneously with a full Triforce elsewhere. Wind Waker elaborates on how the Triforce of Courage shattered into 8 shards across the Great Sea, so apparently when Link returned to the past it was left behind. If Link had taken this into the child timeline then you'd think it'd be visible on his hand in the Temple of Time scene; the designers having it intentionally appearing in the Castle Courtyard signifies its importance relating to the newly spawned alternate timeline.

Chances are, one or two of those chosen ones aren't even born yet. Like how Ganondorf had his piece for a while but TP Zelda and Link weren't even born yet.

Hrm. I'm not 100% sure if a descendant can inherent a Triforce part, didn't think they worked that way; but rather went to those in the world that represented either Power, Wisdom or Courage and believed in their respective force the most.

I'm starting to think the Triforce acting on its own accord is mostly responsible for the "divine prank"; although Link returned to the past and altered critical events thereby changing the space-time continuum, the Triforce basically transcends time itself, interestingly those parts retained the 'memory' of their owners in the alternate adult-timeline and wanted to seek them out again; hence why Power went to Ganondorf, Wisdom may have chosen Zelda, and Courage sought Link once more, regardless that no one touched it. The Triforce parts may share the same sentience and omnipotence the essence of the complete Triforce has, since those three forces make it up.

[LionHarted]

I still think it has the least plotholes to say that Link shut Ganondorf IN the Sacred Realm when he closed the Door of Time, not out of it.

[FDL]

The Triforce is not reunited in the end of TP, nor does a Triforce piece leave Ganondorf's dead body. We just get to see how his mark fades, so it could be just that. If it was, that would mean that the Goddesses never granted him the ToP, which makes the divine prank theory possible and the execution scene a lot less shocking.

Almost like the Triforce of Power shutting down or leaving Ganondorf, thereby killing him, was the gods' last joke at his expense. You have no idea how glad I am you're in this debate.

That's one of the most absurd things I've ever heard. They really subjugated Hyrule and the Twilight Realm to alll of that stuff just as a joke? I continue to wonder why you'd ever try to talk about logic.

What about Ganondorf's OMGZ knowing smile? The Sages could just be surprised that he was revived.

What OMGZ knowing smile?

The one he, y'know, had. When he was revived he just smiled, he didn't seem surprised that he got the Triforce of Power.

Oh, so everything that points toward your theory is on purpose and everything that goes against it is stupid game designers?

That is the general idea.

Do you realize how flawed that is? Who am I kidding, of course you do. You probably just don't care.

It shows how shortsighted the game's developers were in making numerous goofs. Like it or not, calling someone's theory stupid is exactly the same as dubbing it clever; both are rendered meaningless in a speculation thread FDL.

So is this what you're going to resort to now? That's fine, it just shows how little thought you're putting into this.

Of course you remember I originally said something bizarre happened aka "the divine prank" which caused the Triforce to split on its own. Therefore the three Triforce parts hadn't gone to those chosen by destiny yet. I believe Link was first to receive the ToC, Ganondorf and Zelda/King of Hyrule crests probably appeared much later.

Explain how you're reconciling this with the actually storyline, though. Honestly, the ToC shining on his hand lends more credence to the idea that they all had it rather than the idea that only one had it.

LOL "power of darkness" my arse. Ganondorf is simply an evil man consumed by greed who either acquires the sacred Triforce through his blood and sweat or by some other supernatural means. End of story. Bring up this issue again and you'll kindly be ignored.

Translation: I can't argue my point, I'll try to make you look stupid/beligerent. Ganondorf's "power of darkness" has been made incredibly important in these games so it actually means something to this, I think.

Oh BEWARE Sages! Dorf-man has the oh-so-terrible power of darkness...we're not exactly sure what the hell that means...but BEWARE anyway! XD

Did you read the translation thread?

Now that's *your theory* not mine.

I'm arguing my *theory* though. The theory you claimed was illogical. Clearly it's got more logic than you said initially considering you've done nothing to disprove it. Or are pseudo-insults your form of debate?

In order words you were ranting and momentarily forgot the argument I was making but instead of apologizing tried to be a smartarse anyway by blaming me for your own mistake assuming I wouldn't notice. Yeah. Right. Okay.

Actually, I was responding to the general idea that it's impossible for anyone to capture Ganondorf after he got the Triforce of Power. But, no, calling me a smartass when you have so little grasp of what you're talking about is perfectly okay.

I'd hesitate to speculate this because technically we'd have a duplicate Triforce part in the past existing simultaneously with a full Triforce elsewhere. Wind Waker elaborates on how the Triforce of Courage shattered into 8 shards across the Great Sea, so apparently when Link returned to the past it was left behind. If Link had taken this into the child timeline then you'd think it'd be visible on his hand in the Temple of Time scene; the designers having it intentionally appearing in the Castle Courtyard signifies its importance relating to the newly spawned alternate timeline.

It's importance was to reassure us that this wasn't the first meeting of Link and Zelda.

As for the idea that Link had the Triforce of Courage of the future in the past, I disagree with the idea because it opens more holes than it closes. Plus, I think I've heard that the line about it leaving Link when he left Hyrule wasn't in the original JP version.

[SOAP]

I think that something is Link bringing back the ToC into the past. Assuming he was sent to the time you suggest, The ToC in the future shatters and when he goes into the past, the Toc is "forced" out of the Sacred Ream since he's technically still it's weilder.

I'd hesitate to speculate this because technically we'd have a duplicate Triforce part in the past existing simultaneously with a full Triforce elsewhere. Wind Waker elaborates on how the Triforce of Courage shattered into 8 shards across the Great Sea, so apparently when Link returned to the past it was left behind. If Link had taken this into the child timeline then you'd think it'd be visible on his hand in the Temple of Time scene; the designers having it intentionally appearing in the Castle Courtyard signifies its importance relating to the newly spawned alternate timeline.

Chances are, one or two of those chosen ones aren't even born yet. Like how Ganondorf had his piece for a while but TP Zelda and Link weren't even born yet.

Hrm. I'm not 100% sure if a descendant can inherent a Triforce part, didn't think they worked that way; but rather went to those in the world that represented either Power, Wisdom or Courage and believed in their respective force the most.

I'm starting to think the Triforce acting on its own accord is mostly responsible for the "divine prank"; although Link returned to the past and altered critical events thereby changing the space-time continuum, the Triforce basically transcends time itself, interestingly those parts retained the 'memory' of their owners in the alternate adult-timeline and wanted to seek them out again; hence why Power went to Ganondorf, Wisdom may have chosen Zelda, and Courage sought Link once more, regardless that no one touched it. The Triforce parts may share the same sentience and omnipotence the essence of the complete Triforce has, since those three forces make it up.

I think you're slightly misunderstanding me. I'm not saying there's a duplicate ToC. I'm saying it shatters in the future as he goes into past and the ToC in the past automatically goes to him, since he's technically still chosen to weild it. Which is basically what you just said. Ganondorf and Zelda may or may not have gotten their respective pieces right away. Technically they're not the same Zelda and Ganondorf since this is a new timeline and the two haven't proven themselves yet. Hence why Zelda doesn't have her piece yet, unless it went to the King. But I also may be looking to deeply into this... Still the two other Triforce Pieces could've waited until Zelda and Ganondorf had proven themselves just as Link had. The pieces look a certian quality in a person when choosing a bearer. It could've been very well some time after Link got his piece, heck Ganondorf could've indeed gotten his piece right at the execution scene when he showed a great desire for power in his most desperate moment. Zelda and hert piece are up in the air.

I also said nothing about it being passed down lineages. Just that TP Link and and Zelda did not get their pieces because they weren't born yet. Zelda piece could've been passed down down her line but I doubt TP Link's was. We don't even know if the Link's are even related. Hell TP Link may have been born with the mark but did not actually get his piece until he went off to save Ilia and the kids and got sucked into the Twilight Realm. His extreme act of courage of flying straight into danger proved he was worthy of it's power and the ToC went to him in that scene. I think all of this only happened because the Triforce was still split.