93 replies to this topic

[spunky-monkey]

The way I see it is that the Sages were shocked that Ganondorf had the ToP when the in the past when the Twili tried to seize the Triforce, the Goddesses directly intervened. Since they didn't intervene with Ganondorf, the logical conclusion was that he was chosen by the Goddesses, perhaps as some prank. Had the Goddesses become evil?

Hence the term “divine prank” I suppose. Then again the splitting of the Triforce in the child timeline could most likely have been orchestrated by another deity the Sage's didn't know about.

The Sages probably felt so. Ganondorf very well may be chosen. But he still could've gotten the Triforce of Power himself, possibly the same way he did in OoT. He touched the full Triforce and it split on him. One crest stayed with him and the other two went to child Link and Zelda. He goes into hiding for a while like he does in OoT after the Triforce splits and Ganondorf is no where to be found.

Except these possible sequence of events is completely inconsistent with Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and later, Twilight Princess. When Link traveled back to his original time he had his very first audience with Princess Zelda in the courtyard all over again expect now he possessed the Triforce of Courage, Zelda is literally shocked. This isn't how the first audience in the adult-timeline went at all; she didn't have any prophetic dream about a child coming with the part of the sacred Triforce only adorned practically all over Hyrule but with a fairy (Navi, who already departed from the Temple of Time) and a spiritual stone instead.
This means something -bizarre- happened after Ocarina's ending; the Triforce most probably split after Link closed the Door of Time. I'm not sure how or why but I definitely know it wasn't Link who split this version of the Triforce as he was much too young to unlock the final key i.e. the Master Sword without being sealed away (thereby causing events of Ocarina of Time to repeat themselves) and since Majora's Mask follows an indeterminable time afterwards, we know this was not the case.

Now here comes more speculation: Its stated in OoT Princess Zelda's father, the King wouldn't believe his own daughters' warnings or dreams about Ganondorf, but in the alternate timeline he's sure as hell is going to acknowledge that Triforce of Courage glowing on Link's hand - How can anyone possibly argue with that? This intervention makes everyone realise Ganondorf is a traitor who'll destroy Hyrule if not stopped, probably this all occurred while he's "swearing allegiance" to the King. Ganon is exposed by Link who's now horrified his not-so-secret plan has gone completely derailed - he can't even hope to gain access to the Sacred Realm. With his surprise attack on the castle squashed the ancient Sages soon capture Ganondorf and the events of Twilight Princess follow in the Mirror Chamber. Meanwhile Link (notably more athletic and now recognised as a 'Hero', not HoT) leaves Hyrule to search for Navi with loyal Epona (who's also a colt as MM reveals) and can carry the boy in his personal journey.

Zelda realizes Link is leaving Hyrule and gives him the Ocarina of Time (remembering how he originally received this treasure after Zelda threw it into the moat when Impa and her were fleeing from Ganondorf) who tells him the Goddess of Time is protecting him now (maybe I'm looking at this too deeply but she could be suggesting somehow the other gods aren't?).


I feel the need to make a proper timeline to demonstrate how MM & TP replaces OoT in the child timeline...

Edited by Ricky, 14 November 2007 - 03:39 PM.

[CID Farwin]

The way I see it is that the Sages were shocked that Ganondorf had the ToP when the in the past when the Twili tried to seize the Triforce, the Goddesses directly intervened. Since they didn't intervene with Ganondorf, the logical conclusion was that he was chosen by the Goddesses, perhaps as some prank. Had the Goddesses become evil?

Hence the term “divine prank” I suppose. Then again the splitting of the Triforce in the child timeline could most likely have been orchestrated by another deity the Sage's didn't know about.

The Sages probably felt so. Ganondorf very well may be chosen. But he still could've gotten the Triforce of Power himself, possibly the same way he did in OoT. He touched the full Triforce and it split on him. One crest stayed with him and the other two went to child Link and Zelda. He goes into hiding for a while like he does in OoT after the Triforce splits and Ganondorf is no where to be found.

Except these possible sequence of events is completely inconsistent with Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and later, Twilight Princess. When Link traveled back to his original time he had his very first audience with Princess Zelda in the courtyard all over again expect now he possessed the Triforce of Courage, Zelda is literally shocked. This isn't how the first audience in the adult-timeline went at all; she didn't have any prophetic dream about a child coming with the part of the sacred Triforce only adorned practically all over Hyrule but with a fairy (Navi, who already departed from the Temple of Time) and a spiritual stone instead.
This means something -bizarre- happened after Ocarina's ending; the Triforce most probably split after Link closed the Door of Time. I'm not sure how or why but I definitely know it wasn't Link who split this version of the Triforce as he was much too young to unlock the final key i.e. the Master Sword without being sealed away (thereby causing events of Ocarina of Time to repeat themselves) and since Majora's Mask follows an indeterminable time afterwards, we know this was not the case.

Now here comes more speculation: Its stated in OoT Princess Zelda's father, the King wouldn't believe his own daughters' warnings or dreams about Ganondorf, but in the alternate timeline he's sure as hell is going to acknowledge that Triforce of Courage glowing on Link's hand - How can anyone possibly argue with that? This intervention makes everyone realise Ganondorf is a traitor who'll destroy Hyrule if not stopped, probably this all occurred while he's "swearing allegiance" to the King. Ganon is exposed by Link who's now horrified his not-so-secret plan has gone completely derailed - he can't even hope to gain access to the Sacred Realm. With his surprise attack on the castle squashed the ancient Sages soon capture Ganondorf and the events of Twilight Princess follow in the Mirror Chamber. Meanwhile Link (notably more athletic and now recognised as a 'Hero', not HoT) leaves Hyrule to search for Navi with loyal Epona (who's also a colt as MM reveals) and can carry the boy in his personal journey.

Zelda realizes Link is leaving Hyrule and gives him the Ocarina of Time (remembering how he originally received this treasure after Zelda threw it into the moat when Impa and her were fleeing from Ganondorf) who tells him the Goddess of Time is protecting him now (maybe I'm looking at this too deeply but she could be suggesting somehow the other gods aren't?).


I feel the need to make a proper timeline to demonstrate how MM & TP replaces OoT in the child timeline...

As that is all speculation, it should be labeled as such. Namely, we don't know when Link goes back in time to.

It's true that Ganondorf grabbing the Triforce is inconsistent with the sages' surprise at him having it in TP. I guess I never really thought about that. It makes my old theory not work so much. At this point I'm leaning towards the theory that Link went back in time with the Triforce, so instead of creating a paradox, he was simply given the ToC from the past, kind of like how it is with the heart pieces, and thusly splitting the Triforce. There seems to be some things pointing towards this.

[Duke Serkol]

we don't know when Link goes back in time to.

We all would if people accepted the in-game evidence presented in OoT's ending (rather than dismissing it as mistakes by the programmers because the implications won't fit their timelines).

[FDL]

The way I see it is that the Sages were shocked that Ganondorf had the ToP when the in the past when the Twili tried to seize the Triforce, the Goddesses directly intervened. Since they didn't intervene with Ganondorf, the logical conclusion was that he was chosen by the Goddesses, perhaps as some prank. Had the Goddesses become evil?

Hence the term “divine prank” I suppose. Then again the splitting of the Triforce in the child timeline could most likely have been orchestrated by another deity the Sage's didn't know about.

Or by Ganondorf, as is implied? The only thing we can be sure about is that they were shocked that Ganondorf was revived, we don't know if they were shocked at him having the Triforce. In fact, Ganondorf(the guy who actually had the Triforce of Power, and would know if he had it or not) wasn't shocked.

The Sages probably felt so. Ganondorf very well may be chosen. But he still could've gotten the Triforce of Power himself, possibly the same way he did in OoT. He touched the full Triforce and it split on him. One crest stayed with him and the other two went to child Link and Zelda. He goes into hiding for a while like he does in OoT after the Triforce splits and Ganondorf is no where to be found.

Except these possible sequence of events is completely inconsistent with Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and later, Twilight Princess. When Link traveled back to his original time he had his very first audience with Princess Zelda in the courtyard all over again expect now he possessed the Triforce of Courage, Zelda is literally shocked. This isn't how the first audience in the adult-timeline went at all; she didn't have any prophetic dream about a child coming with the part of the sacred Triforce only adorned practically all over Hyrule but with a fairy (Navi, who already departed from the Temple of Time) and a spiritual stone instead.

Except that's not true. Nothing in any of those games says what you're saying. In fact, the state of the Triforce of Courage, the Master Sword, and the Door of Time in OoT's ending say otherwise. Not only is the Door of Time shown as open, but Zelda actually tells Link to put the Master Sword back and close the Door of Time. If that weren't enough, Link already has the Triforce of Courage, which tells us that Ganondorf and Zelda probably have their respective pieces. In fact, nothing actually says that Linki went back to the very beginning of his journeys.

This means something -bizarre- happened after Ocarina's ending; the Triforce most probably split after Link closed the Door of Time. I'm not sure how or why but I definitely know it wasn't Link who split this version of the Triforce as he was much too young to unlock the final key i.e. the Master Sword without being sealed away (thereby causing events of Ocarina of Time to repeat themselves) and since Majora's Mask follows an indeterminable time afterwards, we know this was not the case.

Or it means that Link went back after/during the Triforce split.

Now here comes more speculation: Its stated in OoT Princess Zelda's father, the King wouldn't believe his own daughters' warnings or dreams about Ganondorf, but in the alternate timeline he's sure as hell is going to acknowledge that Triforce of Courage glowing on Link's hand - How can anyone possibly argue with that? This intervention makes everyone realise Ganondorf is a traitor who'll destroy Hyrule if not stopped, probably this all occurred while he's "swearing allegiance" to the King. Ganon is exposed by Link who's now horrified his not-so-secret plan has gone completely derailed - he can't even hope to gain access to the Sacred Realm. With his surprise attack on the castle squashed the ancient Sages soon capture Ganondorf and the events of Twilight Princess follow in the Mirror Chamber.

That's not how Twilight Princess describes it. They merely say that his arrogance allowed him to be captured. Not only that, but they say he actively attacked Hyrule, something that didn't happen before the Triforce was in/almost in his grasp. Again I ask, Link's having the Triforce of Courage(and being aware of it) implies Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, doesn't it?

Meanwhile Link (notably more athletic and now recognised as a 'Hero', not HoT) leaves Hyrule to search for Navi with loyal Epona (who's also a colt as MM reveals) and can carry the boy in his personal journey.

And yet he hasn't done anything that would cause him to be revered by Hylians, Sheikah, Gorons, and Zoras alike. I mean, if he went that far back he wouldn't be known by any of them, he'd be completely under the radar. This is especially important when it comes to the Gorons, as he entrusted one of his main treasures to them and they guarded it for over a hundred years. If he had never become Sworn Brothers with Darunia, or even met the Gorons at all, why would he entrust it to them?

Zelda realizes Link is leaving Hyrule and gives him the Ocarina of Time (remembering how he originally received this treasure after Zelda threw it into the moat when Impa and her were fleeing from Ganondorf) who tells him the Goddess of Time is protecting him now (maybe I'm looking at this too deeply but she could be suggesting somehow the other gods aren't?).

She gave him the Ocarina because he had given it away in the other timeline.

I feel the need to make a proper timeline to demonstrate how MM & TP replaces OoT in the child timeline...

Don't bother. I know you must think we're idiots for disagreeing with anything you say, but we don't need any damn diagrams for you to explain your theory to us. While some things were replaced, not everything was.

we don't know when Link goes back in time to.

We all would if people accepted the in-game evidence presented in OoT's ending (rather than dismissing it as mistakes by the programmers because the implications won't fit their timelines).

Please. Zelda's words to Link, as well as the Triforce of Courage being with Link already, says way more than some vague idea of a "prank". Hell, the way it's been translated in this very topic makes it even less likely. Nothing implies that the "prank" was Ganondorf being given the Triforce of Power at that time. The "prank" could've been any number of things. But, of course, you won't respond to this anyway. I mean, I'm sorry I offended you previously but it's hard to debate someone who ignores you, and this isn't a personal battle anyway. But I'm sure that won't change anything. Hopefully someone else will re-post some of what I've said.

[CID Farwin]

side note:

prank² /præŋk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prangk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object)
1. to dress or adorn in an ostentatious manner: They were all pranked out in their fanciest clothes.
–verb (used without object)
2. to make an ostentatious show or display.
[Origin: 1540–50; akin to D pronken to show off, strut, pronk show, finery, MLG prank pomp]

So the Godesses were pranking out their fancy new clothes, when Din accidentally dropped the Triforce of Power, which landed on Ganondorf's head just as he was getting executed.

...anyway,

we don't know when Link goes back in time to.

We all would if people accepted the in-game evidence presented in OoT's ending (rather than dismissing it as mistakes by the programmers because the implications won't fit their timelines).

Like...when he usually goes to when he goes back in time?

Please. Zelda's words to Link, as well as the Triforce of Courage being with Link already, says way more than some vague idea of a "prank". Hell, the way it's been translated in this very topic makes it even less likely. Nothing implies that the "prank" was Ganondorf being given the Triforce of Power at that time. The "prank" could've been any number of things. But, of course, you won't respond to this anyway. I mean, I'm sorry I offended you previously but it's hard to debate someone who ignores you, and this isn't a personal battle anyway. But I'm sure that won't change anything. Hopefully someone else will re-post some of what I've said.

The Japanese wording, with the 'perhaps', combined with the word 'prank,' which usually implies malicious intent, make me seriously doubt that the sage actually thought that the usually either merciful or indifferent God(esse)s were pulling a prank.

She gave him the Ocarina because he had given it away in the other timeline.

*smacks head* Of course! Link didn't travel back with it, so it 'duplicated' and went to Zelda.

Or maybe(and much more simply) Link just got it back because at that time he had it, and he just gave it back to Zelda before the flashback in MM.

Not only is the Door of Time shown as open, but Zelda actually tells Link to put the Master Sword back and close the Door of Time.

Exactly, Zelda sent Link back, and he had the Master Sword. He put it back, closed the Door of Time, and at some undefined point afterward, goes and talks to Zelda. That's all that's given. What follows is theory: Link putting the Master Sword back effectively 'locks' the door to the Sacred Realm, effectively trapping Ganondorf--to an extent. The sages, having power to enter the Sacred Realm, [it would only make sense if it was] by the command of the king subdue Ganondorf and take him to Arbiter's grounds. The execution follows as shown in TP: Ganondorf, like in the Adult Timeline, realizes the full potential of the Triforce of Power after he has been dealt a mortal blow. He is revived, breaks free and kills the water sage, and the rest of the sages freak out and since they're already there, seal him in the Twilight Realm.

Again I ask, Link's having the Triforce of Courage(and being aware of it) implies Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, doesn't it?

Unless someone else split it...in which case they would have a piece.

Edited by CID Farwin, 15 November 2007 - 12:18 AM.

[spunky-monkey]

As that is all speculation, it should be labeled as such. Namely, we don't know when Link goes back in time to.

Watching the ending its obvious that Link went back in time to their first meeting. How else could Zelda possibly be spying on Ganondorf all over again? It couldn't have occurred afterwards because dorf man left and certainly never after he attacked Hyrule castle because Impa immediately took Zelda far beyond his reach.

Or by Ganondorf, as is implied?

No that's virtually impossible because Ganondorf can't unlock the final key by himself; if Link doesn't go into the Sacred Realm to get the Triforce then Ganon is totally unable to follow behind.

Except that's not true. Nothing in any of those games says what you're saying. In fact, the state of the Triforce of Courage, the Master Sword, and the Door of Time in OoT's ending say otherwise. Not only is the Door of Time shown as open, but Zelda actually tells Link to put the Master Sword back and close the Door of Time. If that weren't enough, Link already has the Triforce of Courage, which tells us that Ganondorf and Zelda probably have their respective pieces. In fact, nothing actually says that Linki went back to the very beginning of his journeys.

*sigh* Just because you didn't understand it doesn't mean its not plausible. In order for the events in Wind Waker to make any kind of coherent sense then his original ToC must have shattered into 8 shards once he left that timeline. It would be illogical for one timeline to have a full Triforce and another Triforce part (4 forces, two of which being duplicates). Also, Link isn't shown with the Triforce of Courage until he arrives in the Castle Courtyard meaning the 'split' happened soon afterwards.

Or it means that Link went back after/during the Triforce split.

That's an assumption without any creditable weight because we know -nothing- of what happened after Majora's Mask, which is the only possible time he could do this. However by using the prologues/endings between MM, TP and TWW we can work out the chronology of important events occurring in both different timelines like a giant jigsaw puzzle; if Link tried to pull the Master Sword out he'd most likely get sealed up again, leaving the Temple of Light and the Triforce inside exposed i.e. pointless.

That's not how Twilight Princess describes it. They merely say that his arrogance allowed him to be captured. Not only that, but they say he actively attacked Hyrule, something that didn't happen before the Triforce was in/almost in his grasp. Again I ask, Link's having the Triforce of Courage(and being aware of it) implies Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, doesn't it?

Bearing in mind how much NoA screwed up the translations' wordplay? Listen, Ganondorf tried to gain access to the Sacred Realm. Why? Because he wanted the fabled Triforce that contained the essence of the gods; we know he did not possess it - thus the whole invasion thingy on Hyrule. If Link warned everyone beforehand they could make preparations, therefore Ganon was blind to the danger that Hyrule was expecting this surprise attack, thus his own undoing at the hands of the Ancient Sages.

And yet he hasn't done anything that would cause him to be revered by Hylians, Sheikah, Gorons, and Zoras alike.

Majora's Mask prologue is a retelling of the much-loved tale of a boy; he was recognized as a hero only to the Royal Family of Hyrule. We also have no idea how many heroes there were around before that protected the kingdom. Don't always assume "Hero" always implies OoT/MM Link.

She gave him the Ocarina because he had given it away in the other timeline.

Okay, WHAT?

Adult-timeline: Zelda desperately throws Ocarina of Time into the moat so Link could get the Triforce before Ganon. Their plan fails. Seven years later Link gives the Ocarina back to Zelda so she can send him back to his original time. (Ocarina of Time - ending)

Child-timeline: Link is leaving Hyrule. Zelda gives him the Ocarina of Time and prays his journey will be a safe one. (Majora's Mask - memories of Zelda)

Don't bother. I know you must think we're idiots for disagreeing with anything you say, but we don't need any damn diagrams for you to explain your theory to us. While some things were replaced, not everything was.

Touchy today are we FDL? I -never- once said anyone was an idiot. The purpose of my proposed timeline 'document' was to better explain or convey my ideas across; quite frankly your intolerance does not prevent me or anybody from debating this; but you seem to hate this whole "divine prank" issue outright so if you want to make your argument(s) better known then come back with a more positive attitude.

[Duke Serkol]

we don't know when Link goes back in time to.

We all would if people accepted the in-game evidence presented in OoT's ending (rather than dismissing it as mistakes by the programmers because the implications won't fit their timelines).

Like...when he usually goes to when he goes back in time?

Not really, no.
I can see from the rest of your post you already have made up your mind on the subject, but that question mark compels me to respond so here I go:
Besides the obvious like the Ocarina of Time being given to Link again in MM (indicating that Link came back to a time before Zelda had given it to him since he had returned it to her in the future and therefore could not have it with him when he went back in time), there are also some subtler clues. One of the harder to notice is that Link, like in every cutscene, wears the equipment the player chose for him (i.e. Deku Shield or Hylian Shield), but he doesn't have the Goron Bracelet. This indicates that he has gone back to before he acquired it. Further indication of this is that Link finds Zelda peering in the window again. Some of us (not me, unfortunately), as soon as they saw the ending, took that as indication that Link had gone back to before his first encouter with Zelda and that it was Ganondorf she was spying on. Now with TP and Aonuma's interview this has pretty much been confirmed since he said Link and Zelda's history with Ganondorf took a completely different direction because of their encounter at the end of the game. And in fact TP does not say anything about Link fighting Ganondorf or him being sealed and then executed by the Sages, it merely says Ganondorf was brought to justice after waging war on Hyrule, indicating that he was never ever sealed in the Sacred/Evil Realm.

Common objections to the above are that Link finds the Door of Time open and that Zelda turns to see Link before he approaches her unlike in their first encounter. The latter is rather humorous since all it would take was for Link to make a little more noise (and really, it makes sense that he would not want to get close to that window since Ganondorf seeing him is what triggered the chain of events that let him into the Sacred Realm) and as for the Door of Time, that is easily explained: the Door of Time is magical, and it was made to keep people out, not in.
Furthermore, it stands to reason that if future Zelda had the power to send Link back in time (she actually emphasizes that as a Sage she can do this... why would she need to if it was the same thing as anytime Link put back the sword?? Why would she need the Ocarina in the first place?) she would also have the power to get the Door of Time to let him out and then close again.

Well that's all. May I suggest the mods to split these posts from the topic so we can get back to translations?

Edited by Duke Serkol, 15 November 2007 - 06:42 AM.

[Jumbie]

I'm surprised no one cares that the Twili never lost their ancient king to greed...

And I'm not sure how the Japanese translations gave better information for determining how exactly OoT's ending happened.
We should split off this debate into a new thread, it makes this thread look untidy while it is actually intended as a source for later reference to the Japanese text, as long as we don't have an English/Japanese comparison chart to upload on ZL.

At this point I'm leaning towards the theory that Link went back in time with the Triforce, so instead of creating a paradox, he was simply given the ToC from the past, kind of like how it is with the heart pieces, and thusly splitting the Triforce. There seems to be some things pointing towards this.

Actually I was promoting this explanation all the time. Half of me still does.

If that weren't enough, Link already has the Triforce of Courage, which tells us that Ganondorf and Zelda probably have their respective pieces. In fact, nothing actually says that Linki went back to the very beginning of his journeys.

Look at CID's quote that I just quoted.

Hopefully someone else will re-post some of what I've said.

It's not much, but I hope it suffices

side note:

prank² /præŋk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prangk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object)
1. to dress or adorn in an ostentatious manner: They were all pranked out in their fanciest clothes.
–verb (used without object)
2. to make an ostentatious show or display.
[Origin: 1540–50; akin to D pronken to show off, strut, pronk show, finery, MLG prank pomp]

So the Godesses were pranking out their fancy new clothes, when Din accidentally dropped the Triforce of Power, which landed on Ganondorf's head just as he was getting executed.

LMAO! ...Only good we're dealing with the Japanese word for prank now.

The Japanese wording, with the 'perhaps', combined with the word 'prank,' which usually implies malicious intent, make me seriously doubt that the sage actually thought that the usually either merciful or indifferent God(esse)s were pulling a prank.

Basically it's like when a Christian questions God taking away a good person's life and letting a criminal get away. But few would call this a divine prank, it's simply the way of life.

She gave him the Ocarina because he had given it away in the other timeline.

*smacks head* Of course! Link didn't travel back with it, so it 'duplicated' and went to Zelda.

Or maybe(and much more simply) Link just got it back because at that time he had it, and he just gave it back to Zelda before the flashback in MM.

It must have been with young Zelda all the time. Otherwise, young Link would have received it when emerging in the past, regardless of that he left it with adult Zelda in the future timeline. Someone must have the Ocarina in the past, and whether Link left it in the future or not does not influence whether he carries it emerging in the past or not.

So, we can't tell. But for the sake of the Ocarina not passing hands between young Link and Zelda a hundred times, I'd say young Zelda simply had it all the time.

In my opinion, Ricky and Duke Serkol have been completely right in their recent posts.

as for the Door of Time, that is easily explained: the Door of Time is magical, and it was made to keep people out, not in.

Also from a game design perspective, I don't think the Master Sword chamber was ever programmed to have a closed entrance. It seems to be a separate map from the ToT's main hall, despite the fluent transition which the game simulates to us. There's actually a changing wall structure and popping light sources.

Furthermore, it stands to reason that if future Zelda had the power to send Link back in time (she actually emphasizes that as a Sage she can do this... why would she need to if it was the same thing as anytime Link put back the sword?? Why would she need the Ocarina in the first place?) she would also have the power to get the Door of Time to let him out and then close again.

What a neat feeling of ease to simply accept people's good explanations instead of grasping for straws to defend one's own theory...

Well that's all. May I suggest the mods to split these posts from the topic so we can get back to translations?

Hehe! ...Oh, and yes please.

[FDL]

This may be split into another thread but I'll post it here for now.

Please. Zelda's words to Link, as well as the Triforce of Courage being with Link already, says way more than some vague idea of a "prank". Hell, the way it's been translated in this very topic makes it even less likely. Nothing implies that the "prank" was Ganondorf being given the Triforce of Power at that time. The "prank" could've been any number of things. But, of course, you won't respond to this anyway. I mean, I'm sorry I offended you previously but it's hard to debate someone who ignores you, and this isn't a personal battle anyway. But I'm sure that won't change anything. Hopefully someone else will re-post some of what I've said.

The Japanese wording, with the 'perhaps', combined with the word 'prank,' which usually implies malicious intent, make me seriously doubt that the sage actually thought that the usually either merciful or indifferent God(esse)s were pulling a prank.

I agree, that's what I mean.

She gave him the Ocarina because he had given it away in the other timeline.

*smacks head* Of course! Link didn't travel back with it, so it 'duplicated' and went to Zelda.

Or maybe(and much more simply) Link just got it back because at that time he had it, and he just gave it back to Zelda before the flashback in MM.

Either one's possible, I guess.

Not only is the Door of Time shown as open, but Zelda actually tells Link to put the Master Sword back and close the Door of Time.

Exactly, Zelda sent Link back, and he had the Master Sword. He put it back, closed the Door of Time, and at some undefined point afterward, goes and talks to Zelda. That's all that's given. What follows is theory: Link putting the Master Sword back effectively 'locks' the door to the Sacred Realm, effectively trapping Ganondorf--to an extent. The sages, having power to enter the Sacred Realm, [it would only make sense if it was] by the command of the king subdue Ganondorf and take him to Arbiter's grounds. The execution follows as shown in TP: Ganondorf, like in the Adult Timeline, realizes the full potential of the Triforce of Power after he has been dealt a mortal blow. He is revived, breaks free and kills the water sage, and the rest of the sages freak out and since they're already there, seal him in the Twilight Realm.

I think it's more likely that he left after getting the Triforce of Power and Link helped them capture him before he was able to build an army/fully control the Triforce's magic.

Again I ask, Link's having the Triforce of Courage(and being aware of it) implies Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, doesn't it?

Unless someone else split it...in which case they would have a piece.

But Link's descendant has the Triforce of Courage, Zelda's has the Triforce of Wisdom, and Ganondorf himself has the Triforce of Power, so I'm not sure who would have touched besides one of them.

As that is all speculation, it should be labeled as such. Namely, we don't know when Link goes back in time to.

Watching the ending its obvious that Link went back in time to their first meeting. How else could Zelda possibly be spying on Ganondorf all over again? It couldn't have occurred afterwards because dorf man left and certainly never after he attacked Hyrule castle because Impa immediately took Zelda far beyond his reach.

We don't know who she's spying on. I always had the feeling she did that for enjoyment, and the fact that she's smiling while doing so tells us she's not specifically looking for Ganondorf. Plus, while I will agree with you that her being in the courtyard is the ending is the biggest thing that goes in your favor, people can move. You cannot claim that her being in the courtyard immediately proves anything. As I've said, there are things that go against that theory.

Or by Ganondorf, as is implied?

No that's virtually impossible because Ganondorf can't unlock the final key by himself; if Link doesn't go into the Sacred Realm to get the Triforce then Ganon is totally unable to follow behind.

No, what I mean is that Link came back after Ganondorf had stolen the Triforce(which is how he always has), not that he pulled the Master Sword again.

Except that's not true. Nothing in any of those games says what you're saying. In fact, the state of the Triforce of Courage, the Master Sword, and the Door of Time in OoT's ending say otherwise. Not only is the Door of Time shown as open, but Zelda actually tells Link to put the Master Sword back and close the Door of Time. If that weren't enough, Link already has the Triforce of Courage, which tells us that Ganondorf and Zelda probably have their respective pieces. In fact, nothing actually says that Linki went back to the very beginning of his journeys.

*sigh* Just because you didn't understand it doesn't mean its not plausible. In order for the events in Wind Waker to make any kind of coherent sense then his original ToC must have shattered into 8 shards once he left that timeline. It would be illogical for one timeline to have a full Triforce and another Triforce part (4 forces, two of which being duplicates). Also, Link isn't shown with the Triforce of Courage until he arrives in the Castle Courtyard meaning the 'split' happened soon afterwards.

What? When did I say otherwise? I agree, the Triforce of Courage of the adult time stayed in the adult time. But the fact is, Link is shown with the Triforce of Courage(presumably of his time) at the end of OoT, which is supposedly "several years" before Ganondorf was sealed in the Mirror of Twilight. I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing here to be honest, I thought you were arguing that Ganondorf got the Triforce of Power at the Arbiter's Grounds but this doesn't really help that theory at all.

Or it means that Link went back after/during the Triforce split.

That's an assumption without any creditable weight because we know -nothing- of what happened after Majora's Mask, which is the only possible time he could do this. However by using the prologues/endings between MM, TP and TWW we can work out the chronology of important events occurring in both different timelines like a giant jigsaw puzzle; if Link tried to pull the Master Sword out he'd most likely get sealed up again, leaving the Temple of Light and the Triforce inside exposed i.e. pointless.

I said he came back after the Triforce had already split, not that he picked up the Master Sword after he came back.

That's not how Twilight Princess describes it. They merely say that his arrogance allowed him to be captured. Not only that, but they say he actively attacked Hyrule, something that didn't happen before the Triforce was in/almost in his grasp. Again I ask, Link's having the Triforce of Courage(and being aware of it) implies Ganondorf has the Triforce of Power, doesn't it?

Bearing in mind how much NoA screwed up the translations' wordplay? Listen, Ganondorf tried to gain access to the Sacred Realm. Why? Because he wanted the fabled Triforce that contained the essence of the gods; we know he did not possess it - thus the whole invasion thingy on Hyrule. If Link warned everyone beforehand they could make preparations, therefore Ganon was blind to the danger that Hyrule was expecting this surprise attack, thus his own undoing at the hands of the Ancient Sages.

Well first of all, it never says he didn't get into the Sacred Realm, it just says he invaded in order to get into it. When it mentions that, it's more establishing motive than telling events. Secondly, the execution doesn't really hinder on them preventing him from getting into the Sacred Realm. It could just as easily happen because Link showed them the way to Ganondorf's hideout and they captured him. All that has to be true is that they got a chance to attack him, nothing else is said conclusively.

And yet he hasn't done anything that would cause him to be revered by Hylians, Sheikah, Gorons, and Zoras alike.

Majora's Mask prologue is a retelling of the much-loved tale of a boy; he was recognized as a hero only to the Royal Family of Hyrule. We also have no idea how many heroes there were around before that protected the kingdom. Don't always assume "Hero" always implies OoT/MM Link.

It does though. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone aside from you who doesn't believe that. I mean not only was the hero known for wearing the Heroes Clothes that appear on Link in Twilight Princess, but he was also known for having the Triforce of Courage, if I remember correctly. But, anyway, Twilight Princess pretty much proves that it's not just the Royal Family who knows about him, as the Goron Elders, Impaz, a Zora Merchant, Renado, the light spirits, the Hero's Spirit, and patrons of Telma's Bar all mention the hero.

[FDL]

She gave him the Ocarina because he had given it away in the other timeline.

Okay, WHAT?

Adult-timeline: Zelda desperately throws Ocarina of Time into the moat so Link could get the Triforce before Ganon. Their plan fails. Seven years later Link gives the Ocarina back to Zelda so she can send him back to his original time. (Ocarina of Time - ending)

Child-timeline: Link is leaving Hyrule. Zelda gives him the Ocarina of Time and prays his journey will be a safe one. (Majora's Mask - memories of Zelda)

Yes, and when Link gave Zelda the Ocarina in the adult timeline he lost it completely. I mean, the games have shown that Link operates differently through time, and when he gains or loses something in the adult time, he loses it in the child time. For instance, if you go forward in time with ten bombs in OoT and then drop them all, you lose them in that time AND the child time. Same for rupees, bottled items, etc.

Don't bother. I know you must think we're idiots for disagreeing with anything you say, but we don't need any damn diagrams for you to explain your theory to us. While some things were replaced, not everything was.

Touchy today are we FDL? I -never- once said anyone was an idiot. The purpose of my proposed timeline 'document' was to better explain or convey my ideas across; quite frankly your intolerance does not prevent me or anybody from debating this; but you seem to hate this whole "divine prank" issue outright so if you want to make your argument(s) better known then come back with a more positive attitude.

I'm not really touchy, you were just being condescending with that comment. But, anyway, I'm not trying to be "intolerant" at all. I'm only trying to debate my beliefs on this matter, I'm not trying to say you're definetly wrong. Please give me the same courtesy.

Common objections to the above are that Link finds the Door of Time open and that Zelda turns to see Link before he approaches her unlike in their first encounter. The latter is rather humorous since all it would take was for Link to make a little more noise (and really, it makes sense that he would not want to get close to that window since Ganondorf seeing him is what triggered the chain of events that let him into the Sacred Realm) and as for the Door of Time, that is easily explained: the Door of Time is magical, and it was made to keep people out, not in.
Furthermore, it stands to reason that if future Zelda had the power to send Link back in time (she actually emphasizes that as a Sage she can do this... why would she need to if it was the same thing as anytime Link put back the sword?? Why would she need the Ocarina in the first place?) she would also have the power to get the Door of Time to let him out and then close again.

Well that's all. May I suggest the mods to split these posts from the topic so we can get back to translations?

Zelda herself acknowledges that the Door of Time is open though, so it being a gameplay mechanic is unlikely. Not only that, but dare I ask, why doesn't Link wake up in the Kokiri Forest exactly like in the beginning of Ocarina of Time if Zelda can really send him back to a time before everything happened. Why not send him back to a few days before Ganondorf visits the forest with a bow and some light arrows so he can just shoot Ganondorf in the heart with a light arrow when he goes up to curse the Great Deku Tree? If Zelda can mess around with time as much as possible, why not erase Ganondorf from time completely?

[SOAP]

The way I see it is that the Sages were shocked that Ganondorf had the ToP when the in the past when the Twili tried to seize the Triforce, the Goddesses directly intervened. Since they didn't intervene with Ganondorf, the logical conclusion was that he was chosen by the Goddesses, perhaps as some prank. Had the Goddesses become evil?

Hence the term “divine prank” I suppose. Then again the splitting of the Triforce in the child timeline could most likely have been orchestrated by another deity the Sage's didn't know about.

The Sages probably felt so. Ganondorf very well may be chosen. But he still could've gotten the Triforce of Power himself, possibly the same way he did in OoT. He touched the full Triforce and it split on him. One crest stayed with him and the other two went to child Link and Zelda. He goes into hiding for a while like he does in OoT after the Triforce splits and Ganondorf is no where to be found.

Except these possible sequence of events is completely inconsistent with Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and later, Twilight Princess. When Link traveled back to his original time he had his very first audience with Princess Zelda in the courtyard all over again expect now he possessed the Triforce of Courage, Zelda is literally shocked. This isn't how the first audience in the adult-timeline went at all; she didn't have any prophetic dream about a child coming with the part of the sacred Triforce only adorned practically all over Hyrule but with a fairy (Navi, who already departed from the Temple of Time) and a spiritual stone instead.
This means something -bizarre- happened after Ocarina's ending; the Triforce most probably split after Link closed the Door of Time. I'm not sure how or why but I definitely know it wasn't Link who split this version of the Triforce as he was much too young to unlock the final key i.e. the Master Sword without being sealed away (thereby causing events of Ocarina of Time to repeat themselves) and since Majora's Mask follows an indeterminable time afterwards, we know this was not the case.

Now here comes more speculation: Its stated in OoT Princess Zelda's father, the King wouldn't believe his own daughters' warnings or dreams about Ganondorf, but in the alternate timeline he's sure as hell is going to acknowledge that Triforce of Courage glowing on Link's hand - How can anyone possibly argue with that? This intervention makes everyone realise Ganondorf is a traitor who'll destroy Hyrule if not stopped, probably this all occurred while he's "swearing allegiance" to the King. Ganon is exposed by Link who's now horrified his not-so-secret plan has gone completely derailed - he can't even hope to gain access to the Sacred Realm. With his surprise attack on the castle squashed the ancient Sages soon capture Ganondorf and the events of Twilight Princess follow in the Mirror Chamber. Meanwhile Link (notably more athletic and now recognised as a 'Hero', not HoT) leaves Hyrule to search for Navi with loyal Epona (who's also a colt as MM reveals) and can carry the boy in his personal journey.

Zelda realizes Link is leaving Hyrule and gives him the Ocarina of Time (remembering how he originally received this treasure after Zelda threw it into the moat when Impa and her were fleeing from Ganondorf) who tells him the Goddess of Time is protecting him now (maybe I'm looking at this too deeply but she could be suggesting somehow the other gods aren't?).


I feel the need to make a proper timeline to demonstrate how MM & TP replaces OoT in the child timeline...

I actually agree with all that.

[Jumbie]

We don't know who she's spying on. I always had the feeling she did that for enjoyment, and the fact that she's smiling while doing so tells us she's not specifically looking for Ganondorf.

Sure, she probably smiles because she got a crush on a king's guard.

...Wait a minute - smiling?!

 ootzelda.png   78.78K   27 downloads

[Chaltab]

We don't know who she's spying on. I always had the feeling she did that for enjoyment, and the fact that she's smiling while doing so tells us she's not specifically looking for Ganondorf.

Sure, she probably smiles because she got a crush on a king's guard.

...Wait a minute - smiling?!

 ootzelda.png   78.78K   27 downloads

Turn the frown upside down and it's a smile...

Er... Maybe FDL has been playing the Stone Tower Dungeon too long. O_o

[spunky-monkey]

My ISP has been acting strange for several days so I couldn't reply sooner. Sorry everyone this thread had to be split from the translation topic. '_';

But Link's descendant has the Triforce of Courage, Zelda's has the Triforce of Wisdom, and Ganondorf himself has the Triforce of Power, so I'm not sure who would have touched besides one of them.

Worth pointing out that only Link could. The Temple of Time was build to protect the Triforce from evil ones so the Ancient Sages constructed two complex locks: The first lock required someone with three spiritual stones with the Ocarina of Time in hand to play the Song of Time; this opens the Door of Time. The second and final lock was the Master Sword resting in the Pedestal of Time and we all know the legendary blade of evil's bane cannot be touched by evil people, therefore only one person worthy of the title "Hero of Time" can pull it free; after that it's a simple matter of someone going to the Temple of Light situated in the very center of the Sacred Realm and obtaining the Triforce.

Neither Ganondorf nor Zelda could ever utilise the Master Sword so getting to the Sacred Realm for them is simply impassable (Alice in Wonderland quote ^^). Link could, but he was too young thus his spirit was sealed away for seven years until he was old enough to weld the evil-destroying sword. Ganondorf simply walks in and laughs:-

"As I thought, you held the keys
to the Door of Time!
You have led me to the gates of
the Sacred Realm...
Yes, I owe it all to you, kid!"

...anyone find it especially ironic that if Zelda and Link didn't try to stop Ganon then he never would have succeeded in getting the Triforce of Power at all?

We don't know who she's spying on.

Who else? It's Big G (no not Godzilla).

I always had the feeling she did that for enjoyment, and the fact that she's smiling while doing so tells us she's not specifically looking for Ganondorf.

Granted she's a tomboy. Even James Bond can't help but smile when he spies on people. ^^

No, what I mean is that Link came back after Ganondorf had stolen the Triforce(which is how he always has), not that he pulled the Master Sword again.

That's illogical. Why would Zelda return Link to a time he could already achieve on his own? Not to mention she would be practically allowing Ganondorf to corrupt the Sacred Realm a second time. Zelda said that it was time to make up for her mistakes, the only method of accomplishing this was to send Link back *prior* to the day they first met. Link regained his -lost- time.

What? When did I say otherwise? I agree, the Triforce of Courage of the adult time stayed in the adult time. But the fact is, Link is shown with the Triforce of Courage(presumably of his time) at the end of OoT, which is supposedly "several years" before Ganondorf was sealed in the Mirror of Twilight. I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing here to be honest, I thought you were arguing that Ganondorf got the Triforce of Power at the Arbiter's Grounds but this doesn't really help that theory at all.

My argument hasn't changed: the split didn't happen immediately after Link traveled back in time. This "divine prank" is what horrified the Sages when they executed Ganon, apparently if we are to believe them and dorf-man, the three who hold the Triforce parts in this timeline were chosen. The gods choosing an evil warlord Ganondorf, over their own loyal servants (the Sages) is evidence that their deities are neither good nor evil. Actually, what isn't helping my theory right now is you rejecting it without even weighing all the evidence given.

I said he came back after the Triforce had already split, not that he picked up the Master Sword after he came back.

I really don't understand what you're arguing; please clarify your statement.

Well first of all, it never says he didn't get into the Sacred Realm, it just says he invaded in order to get into it. When it mentions that, it's more establishing motive than telling events. Secondly, the execution doesn't really hinder on them preventing him from getting into the Sacred Realm. It could just as easily happen because Link showed them the way to Ganondorf's hideout and they captured him. All that has to be true is that they got a chance to attack him, nothing else is said conclusively.

The execution doesn't, but the banishment sure did. Besides if Ganondorf is convinced that the gods are on his side then he can assume he'll conquer Hyrule with or without the Triforce. Ganondorf being 'blind' to any danger and captured is an indication that he walked right into some kind of trap set by Link and/or the Sages. Hey they probably lured him to the Temple of Time using that fake Triforce-hologram we saw in Zelda64 beta screenshots tricking gamers for so long. ;3 *laughs*

It does though. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone aside from you who doesn't believe that.

I don’t recall but several people here have already considered the possibility there's more than one Hylian -hero- since TWW and TMC you know. And about items FDL, Nintendo just enjoy slapping any old description on inventory Link gets to make the player feel *special* when in actuality all they've got is the same bloody Zora tunic or Fairy Bow all over again...

[Duke Serkol]

My argument hasn't changed: the split didn't happen immediately after Link traveled back in time.

But there's a problem with that: if Link was sent back before he first took out the Master Sword and (as evidence indicates) before he first met Zelda, then that means his location at that time has changed (like, say, he was on his way to Hyrule Castle town but suddenly thanks to Zelda's magic he was "moved" to the chamber of the Master Sword, with all the memories of his future adventure).
This in itself would be enough to cause the split of the timeline, because Link afterwards does not continue the journey on which the Deku Tree had set him, but goes to warn Zelda not to attempt getting the Triforce before G-man.

[FDL]

We don't know who she's spying on. I always had the feeling she did that for enjoyment, and the fact that she's smiling while doing so tells us she's not specifically looking for Ganondorf.

Sure, she probably smiles because she got a crush on a king's guard.

...Wait a minute - smiling?!

 ootzelda.png   78.78K   27 downloads

Isn't she smiling before she notices that Link is behind her?

We don't know who she's spying on. I always had the feeling she did that for enjoyment, and the fact that she's smiling while doing so tells us she's not specifically looking for Ganondorf.

Sure, she probably smiles because she got a crush on a king's guard.

...Wait a minute - smiling?!

 ootzelda.png   78.78K   27 downloads

Turn the frown upside down and it's a smile...

Er... Maybe FDL has been playing the Stone Tower Dungeon too long. O_o

Yes, it's a terrible affliction. People always "smile" at me when I ask them what they're doing on the ceiling...

My ISP has been acting strange for several days so I couldn't reply sooner. Sorry everyone this thread had to be split from the translation topic. '_';

Yeah, I'm sorry as well.

But Link's descendant has the Triforce of Courage, Zelda's has the Triforce of Wisdom, and Ganondorf himself has the Triforce of Power, so I'm not sure who would have touched besides one of them.

Worth pointing out that only Link could. The Temple of Time was build to protect the Triforce from evil ones so the Ancient Sages constructed two complex locks: The first lock required someone with three spiritual stones with the Ocarina of Time in hand to play the Song of Time; this opens the Door of Time. The second and final lock was the Master Sword resting in the Pedestal of Time and we all know the legendary blade of evil's bane cannot be touched by evil people, therefore only one person worthy of the title "Hero of Time" can pull it free; after that it's a simple matter of someone going to the Temple of Light situated in the very center of the Sacred Realm and obtaining the Triforce.

Neither Ganondorf nor Zelda could ever utilise the Master Sword so getting to the Sacred Realm for them is simply impassable (Alice in Wonderland quote ^^). Link could, but he was too young thus his spirit was sealed away for seven years until he was old enough to weld the evil-destroying sword. Ganondorf simply walks in and laughs

"As I thought, you held the keys
to the Door of Time!
You have led me to the gates of
the Sacred Realm...
Yes, I owe it all to you, kid!"

...anyone find it especially ironic that if Zelda and Link didn't try to stop Ganon then he never would have succeeded in getting the Triforce of Power at all?

I know all of this, and yes it's meant to be ironic. But I just don't think that the irony means that it will be changed.

We don't know who she's spying on.

Who else? It's Big G (no not Godzilla).

But she's always in that courtyard, what else do you think she does all day?

No, what I mean is that Link came back after Ganondorf had stolen the Triforce(which is how he always has), not that he pulled the Master Sword again.

That's illogical. Why would Zelda return Link to a time he could already achieve on his own? Not to mention she would be practically allowing Ganondorf to corrupt the Sacred Realm a second time. Zelda said that it was time to make up for her mistakes, the only method of accomplishing this was to send Link back *prior* to the day they first met. Link regained his -lost- time.

When she was talking about "lost time" she meant the seven years he slept. His "original time" just means when he was a child. Not only that, but in her speech at the end she tells Link to close the Door of Time and return the Master Sword to the pedestal. If she were really returning him to that time, why would he appear in an open Temple of Time? Wouldn't he appear in the Kokiri Forest? You say it's illogical, but there are [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of seemingly illogical things in your idea of it as well.

What? When did I say otherwise? I agree, the Triforce of Courage of the adult time stayed in the adult time. But the fact is, Link is shown with the Triforce of Courage(presumably of his time) at the end of OoT, which is supposedly "several years" before Ganondorf was sealed in the Mirror of Twilight. I'm not sure I understand what you're arguing here to be honest, I thought you were arguing that Ganondorf got the Triforce of Power at the Arbiter's Grounds but this doesn't really help that theory at all.

My argument hasn't changed: the split didn't happen immediately after Link traveled back in time. This "divine prank" is what horrified the Sages when they executed Ganon, apparently if we are to believe them and dorf-man, the three who hold the Triforce parts in this timeline were chosen. The gods choosing an evil warlord Ganondorf, over their own loyal servants (the Sages) is evidence that their deities are neither good nor evil. Actually, what isn't helping my theory right now is you rejecting it without even weighing all the evidence given.

Didn't you say that Link having the Triforce of Courage is what caused them to execute Ganondorf in the first place? How is that the case if the three bearers of the Triforce got their pieces after Ganondorf was executed. Plus, according to that Aonuma interview the execution scene took place several years after the end of OoT.

On the point of the goddesses being neither good nor evil, wouldn't their ambivalence mean that they wouldn't give Ganondorf the Triforce as much as it means they wouldn't prevent him from getting it? As for you saying I'm not weighing your points, that's just not true and not fair. I disagree with the theory, but I do think it's got some good points.

I said he came back after the Triforce had already split, not that he picked up the Master Sword after he came back.

I really don't understand what you're arguing; please clarify your statement.

What I said above. Link is sent back to right after he pulled the Master Sword, and while he doesn't prevent Ganondorf from getting the Triforce he does prevent him from taking over Hyrule(which was the big problem of the Adult timeline).

[FDL]

Well first of all, it never says he didn't get into the Sacred Realm, it just says he invaded in order to get into it. When it mentions that, it's more establishing motive than telling events. Secondly, the execution doesn't really hinder on them preventing him from getting into the Sacred Realm. It could just as easily happen because Link showed them the way to Ganondorf's hideout and they captured him. All that has to be true is that they got a chance to attack him, nothing else is said conclusively.

The execution doesn't, but the banishment sure did. Besides if Ganondorf is convinced that the gods are on his side then he can assume he'll conquer Hyrule with or without the Triforce. Ganondorf being 'blind' to any danger and captured is an indication that he walked right into some kind of trap set by Link and/or the Sages. Hey they probably lured him to the Temple of Time using that fake Triforce-hologram we saw in Zelda64 beta screenshots tricking gamers for so long. ;3 *laughs*

But aren't we going to use the JP quotes now that we have them? It says that the Sages eventually had an opportunity to capture Ganondorf(as well as saying "probably by some prank of the gods" rather than confirming any true "divine prank"). Hell, couldn't Link have lead the Sages to Ganondorf's hideout and that was how they caught him?

It does though. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone aside from you who doesn't believe that.

I don’t recall but several people here have already considered the possibility there's more than one Hylian -hero- since TWW and TMC you know. And about items FDL, Nintendo just enjoy slapping any old description on inventory Link gets to make the player feel *special* when in actuality all they've got is the same bloody Zora tunic or Fairy Bow all over again...

Alright, I'll admit I sounded like a jerk there but I still stand by the idea. I mean, I'm sure you can make a case otherwise but there is more evidence that he is the Hero of Time than against it. But I know from previous topics that I won't get anywhere on this point.

[CID Farwin]

Rather than post a proper response, I'll just point out that the Triforce is said multiple times to be 'divine.' The Goddesses need not be involved at all. The "prank" could be nothing more than Ganondorf being the one worthy of the Triforce of Power, and the sages underestimated his power. While I stand by the opinion that the Goddesses are inherently good, the Triforce is said, also multiple times, to be completely neutral to who takes it.

[Showsni]

For all we know, "divine prank" is just a Hyrulean colloquialism for bad luck or something... I wouldn't put too much emphasis on it.

I have to agree with FDL in the main, I think - it seems much more likely Link is sent back to just after the last time he left the past, as usual. The door is open.

[SOAP]

For all we know, "divine prank" is just a Hyrulean colloquialism for bad luck or something... I wouldn't put too much emphasis on it.

I have to agree with FDL in the main, I think - it seems much more likely Link is sent back to just after the last time he left the past, as usual. The door is open.

Personally, I think either theory works. Yes the door was open but Zelda also wanted to rectify her mistakes and make up for Link's lost childhood. Why send him back to the last time he left the past with nothing changed. If anything it would only meddle with Link's victory in the future. It would be smarter to send Link just far back enough to where he didn't get involved with opening the path to the Sacred Realm in the first place. There's also the fact that Zelda gives Link the Ocarina of Time to him in the MM flashback. How could she give to Link in the past when he left with her adult self in the future? Either his child body had a past version of the instrument on his person and he gave it back her... again and she gave it to him... again. Or the adult Zelda sent Link back far enough in time when her child self was still in possession of the ocarina in the past.

Edited by SOAP, 16 November 2007 - 11:14 PM.

[spunky-monkey]

Argh. I appear to have a line fault, my time is short, hope this response gets through. ¬.¬

There's also the fact that Zelda gives Link the Ocarina of Time to him in the MM flashback. How could she give to Link in the past when he left with her adult self in the future? Either his child body had a past version of the instrument on his person and he gave it back her... again and she gave it to him... again. Or the adult Zelda sent Link back far enough in time when her child self was still in possession of the ocarina in the past.

Glad you brought that one up SOAP. This was one of my biggest arguments for the whole theory on Ocarina's ending, and it cannot be disputed as easily as the 'Door of Time' clause because that's simply a gameplay mechanic and for all we know can be opened from the inside; not to mention we've seen Navi fly right out the damn window.

If Link was really send back to a time *after* he pulled the sword out then closing the Door of Time would trap Ganondorf in the Sacred Realm he already entered; true it probably wouldn't be as strong as the Sage's seal, and nowhere near as powerful as the perfect-seal, but this is unimportant because that's clearly not what happened in Twilight Princess. If Ganondorf got his Triforce of Power those Ancient Sages would never have been able to capture him, period; basically I'm choosing the sequence of events that meshes best with this Mirror Chamber scene...if new evidence comes to light then I'll change my theories accordingly.

[Fyxe]

If Ganondorf got his Triforce of Power those Ancient Sages would never have been able to capture him, period

What makes you think he instantly knew how to use it's full strength? Hell, he was 'killed' by Link in OoT before he actually used it to the full, and even then he doesn't use the Technique of Darkness or any dimension-bending skills.

The sequence in TP was homaging all of that, right down to the music.

[spunky-monkey]

What makes you think he instantly knew how to use it's full strength? Hell, he was 'killed' by Link in OoT before he actually used it to the full, and even then he doesn't use the Technique of Darkness or any dimension-bending skills.

The sequence in TP was homaging all of that, right down to the music.

We're talking about a megalomaniac who speaks in the third person about himself. He treats Link like a child, underestimated the Triforce of Courage right up until his arrogance got the better of him. The ruining of his own tower and wrathful transformation into the monsterous Ganon proves he cannot control the true power of the Triforce of Power and can only use it destructively.

As soon as he got the ToP in OoT he easily destroyed Hyrule Castle, spread evil through the temples and took over the enitre kingdom; please note this didn't quite happen in TP until he escaped the Twilight Realm using Zant.

EDIT: What was I arguing again? F**king distractions.

Edited by Ricky, 17 November 2007 - 01:38 PM.

[Fyxe]

As soon as he got the ToP in OoT he easily destroyed Hyrule Castle,

Did he? You have no idea how easily he did it, or how long it took.

My point is that Ganondorf being defeated in TP before being executed does not prove that the Triforce of Power suddenly popped into his posession for no apparent reason as soon as he was stabbed.

I wish people wouldn't lend credence to such an unfounded theory.

[Showsni]

If Zelda can send Link back in time, why can't she send the ocarina back in time to her past self? Or maybe it travels back with Link, and he returns it to child Zelda, who later gives it back to him when he leaves Hyrule.

If Link can go back in time and change the past, then he doesn't even need to bother fighting Ganon. He could go straight back the instant he wakes up and avert the whole mess.

[Duke Serkol]

not to mention we've seen Navi fly right out the damn window.

Yes I'm always amused that the ones who came up with the whole three spiritual stones and magic ocarina to move the massive stone slab aside seemingly did not know about ladders. Nor does Link apparently, even though he has one to get out of his home.

[Chaltab]

My point is that Ganondorf being defeated in TP before being executed does not prove that the Triforce of Power suddenly popped into his posession for no apparent reason as soon as he was stabbed.

I wish people wouldn't lend credence to such an unfounded theory.

But... but... There's no evidence to establish that he did have it before being captured either! You can only assume one way or the other, and neither theory can be proven!

[MikePetersSucks]

But the "He had it beforehand" DOES have more credence because there's no causal reason for it to just pop into Ganondorf's possession otherwise, and there's the whole "Ganon touched the Triforce and made it split" Dealio that's pretty goddamned important that people seem to fanwank around for some reason.

[spunky-monkey]

Did he? You have no idea how easily he did it, or how long it took.

You saw how quickly he collapsed his own tower right? About 3 measly minutes.

My point is that Ganondorf being defeated in TP before being executed does not prove that the Triforce of Power suddenly popped into his posession for no apparent reason as soon as he was stabbed.

Of course not, as TP states he was chosen to weld power; let's reflect on the 'divine prank' clause again.

If Zelda can send Link back in time, why can't she send the ocarina back in time to her past self? Or maybe it travels back with Link, and he returns it to child Zelda, who later gives it back to him when he leaves Hyrule.

She can't - the Ocarina is being used to send Link back. Catch Twenty-Two.

If Link can go back in time and change the past, then he doesn't even need to bother fighting Ganon. He could go straight back the instant he wakes up and avert the whole mess.

Link couldn't go that far back in time with only the Master Sword, however a Sage can send him further back (Princess Zelda).

But the "He had it beforehand" DOES have more credence because there's no causal reason for it to just pop into Ganondorf's possession otherwise, and there's the whole "Ganon touched the Triforce and made it split" Dealio that's pretty goddamned important that people seem to fanwank around for some reason.

Except Ganon can't reach the Triforce if the Door of Time and Master Sword bar his way. Look guys stop using that "fanwank" term, just stop; it's vulgar and pathetic. I thought Showsni banned it's excessive use.

[Fyxe]

Did he? You have no idea how easily he did it, or how long it took.

You saw how quickly he collapsed his own tower right? About 3 measly minutes.

*Bangs head on wall*
Firstly, way to miss my point, which is that is seven years in the future, and he's utilising the full power of the ToP in his 'last breath'. This is *exactly* what I was talking about.

Also, it's his own castle.

Of course not, as TP states he was chosen to weld power; let's reflect on the 'divine prank' clause again.

Frankly, I don't think we should bother. It's just a figure of speech simply because the Sages didn't know he had it.

She can't - the Ocarina is being used to send Link back. Catch Twenty-Two.

She can't send it afterwards?

Except Ganon can't reach the Triforce if the Door of Time and Master Sword bar his way. Look guys stop using that "fanwank" term, just stop; it's vulgar and pathetic. I thought Showsni banned it's excessive use.

We don't know when exactly Link was sent back. Link has the Triforce of Courage. Since there can't be two Links in one timeline, that means Ganondorf must have at least got the Triforce.

What happens next, we don't know for sure. Majora's Mask, presumably. At some point Ganondorf shows up and does something significant and reveals himself, but he is captured because Link warned of what is to come. This all comes from what Aonuma said. Underestimating Ganondorf's power, the Sages try and execute him.

What exactly are you arguing, Ricky? Has the Triforce been touched or not? Link has his piece. You would assume Ganondorf and Zelda must have theirs as well. Ganon is going to have the ToP before the execution scene however you swing it.