114 replies to this topic

[Masamune]

I think it's hard to write out Ganondorf completely because, let's face it... Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the main characters. Plotwise, moreso Zelda and Ganondorf since Link never speaks. Zelda and Ganondorf go hand in hand. For the most part, you can't have one without the other (i.e. LA, MM, PH [Tetra isn't really Zelda here]). Link seems to be okay at going on his own adventures, but Zelda is kind of dependent on Ganon's involvement (sans the FS trilogy). And a Zelda game without Zelda is err... not so much the "Legend of Zelda" at all.

[Duke Serkol]

I think it's hard to write out Ganondorf completely because, let's face it... Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the main characters. Plotwise, moreso Zelda and Ganondorf since Link never speaks.

No let's face this: said characters have grown completely stale, even Nintendo must realize this to some degree because even though they had their mandatory appearances in TP they were seen so scarcely that they felt tucked on, while the plot development was left to Midna, Zant and the Sages.

Zelda is kind of dependent on Ganon's involvement (sans the FS trilogy). And a Zelda game without Zelda is err... not so much the "Legend of Zelda" at all.

Which is why I am in favor of ending the series at least temporarily and starting a spin-off "Legend of Something/one". Doesn't matter if it is Legend of Tetra or Legend of Midna or even Legend of Link or Legend of Vaati (or a completely new character), I just want to get away from playing through the same plot again and again.

[FDL]

In my opinion, the only "Gaiden" game that's been successful in surpassing the "Main Story" games is MM. Ganondorf, the Triforce, Zelda, Hyrule, the Evil Realm, the Master Sword, Zoras, Gorons, Deku Scrubs, these things make Zelda for me. Is there really no way to tell good stories while using some of these elements? If they go too out of there way to make the story "different" then the game may not "feel" like Zelda anymore.

[Masamune]

I think it's hard to write out Ganondorf completely because, let's face it... Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the main characters. Plotwise, moreso Zelda and Ganondorf since Link never speaks.

No let's face this: said characters have grown completely stale, even Nintendo must realize this to some degree because even though they had their mandatory appearances in TP they were seen so scarcely that they felt tucked on, while the plot development was left to Midna, Zant and the Sages.

I don't feel they've grown stale. Twilight Princess, admittedly, didn't use them much. But that doesn't mean they're stale. It just means the characters need to be used in more imaginative ways. Sans the Tetra randomly donning a dress, TWW used both of those characters rather inventively.

Zelda is kind of dependent on Ganon's involvement (sans the FS trilogy). And a Zelda game without Zelda is err... not so much the "Legend of Zelda" at all.

Which is why I am in favor of ending the series at least temporarily and starting a spin-off "Legend of Something/one". Doesn't matter if it is Legend of Tetra or Legend of Midna or even Legend of Link or Legend of Vaati (or a completely new character), I just want to get away from playing through the same plot again and again.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeah.... I'm gonna say no. Besides the fact it's bad branding, it would be too much of an upset. Besides that, there's already two spinoff series (Four Swords and Tingle's Rupeeland). Renaming the series to escape some conventions is a silly idea, especially since the idea is to apparently use a similar gameplay system anyways. The series just needs to challenge the concepts of who Zelda and Ganon are and use them in creative ways, but be careful not to go too far (ala Breath of Fire V) with trying to be original.

Zelda may be getting to be a tired character, but I don't think Ganondorf is. This is only the third game we've seen him in human form out of over fourteen games. He still has a lot of untapped potential there that Aonuma just needs to take advantage of.

[Duke Serkol]

And I suppose having more and more Zelda games without Zelda would be much better than accepting a new title, uh? Bah.

I'd be okay with the "creative new ways"... had they ever managed that. But this does not seem to be the case. I mean, I'd love it if Ganondorf was given a more unusual role, like if for plausible reason he had to assist the player instead of being the final boss, but it seems it's just not gonna happen. They actually said he would have an unusual role in TP. How very so, turns out he's the mastermind behind a pawn we thought was the villain. My, never saw that before.

So yeah, if they could do that, great, but seeing as they appear unable to pull it off, I'd rather get away from the stale plot by changing it entirely. Honestly, how many times can it be epic to stop ol' pig from conquering the world?

[ShadyUltima]

Am I the only one who wants a game that explains more about the Fierce Diety Mask?

It's THE best mask in Majora's Mask, and they give absolutely no explanation about it. Why not a game where you're in Termina, and the Fierce Diety is the villain? They said he was an evil spirit locked in the mask, so why not explain it. I bet he could be a wicked character. Almost like Shadow Link... only with an actual backstory?

[Duke Serkol]

I like that idea Shady Ultima

I've always had a fascination in that mask because it is labeled Deity yet looks like Link.
So long as that is explained, I would gladly welcome such a game!

[Masamune]

So yeah, if they could do that, great, but seeing as they appear unable to pull it off, I'd rather get away from the stale plot by changing it entirely. Honestly, how many times can it be epic to stop ol' pig from conquering the world?

Wow. I'm going to arbitrarily want Nintendo to do stuff I know they'll never do with the series too! Yay!

Seriously though. If I'm going to make demands of where Zelda goes, at least I may as well be realistic about it. Them spinning off the series to "Legend of Link" or whatever is unlikely. They're going to keep working with Ganon and Zelda as long as the series is around. May as well be realistic about it and hope they do something original.

[Arturo]

I'd be okay with the "creative new ways"... had they ever managed that.

Because their roles are absolutely conventional in TWW. TWW is, obviously that game that has experimented most with both Zelda and Ganondorf. But I forgot you hate TWW irrationally and there's nothing there to be appreciated ¬¬

[Splash]

My pardons for skipping the three pages of talk; I'm going to just answer the topic title.
If Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass are allowable as examples of where the Zelda series is going, a gigantic "yes" would be appropriate.
To sum it up (because nobody wants to repeat the same thing over and over, right? ...right?), Twilight Princess was bland compared to the rest of the console LoZ games (although it was a pretty good game on its own), and Phantom Hourglass wasn't even fucking finished (or, as it feels, game tested at all) and made incredibly weak attempts to be different WindWaker. The LoZ story might be as fun as ever, but the games have gotten lazy and - dare I say - boring when compared to the majority of LoZ games (because depth in games is so last console, amirite).
But, alas, this isn't new. It is the fate of most game legends, so it's not like the decreased quality of the games is of any shock. Despite everything, though, it will still be LoZ, and for that reason it will be worth it in some way, shape, or form.
Besides! No matter how bad it might get, there will always be the fanboys and girls who will back it up. :D Bless you all.

(edited because i got my words mixed up)

Edited by Splash, 14 November 2007 - 01:03 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

Wow. I'm going to arbitrarily want Nintendo to do stuff I know they'll never do with the series too! Yay!

That's true, after posting yesterday I too thought to myself "What's the point of getting worked up since it is equally impossible that those characters will be use din new ways or that the series will move in a direction that doesn't tuck them on to every "new" story?"
So, alas, it seems we are to bear it as it comes with Ganon kidnapping Zelda and getting killed by Link every two games. No point getting mad over it (I'm being honest here, I'm not answering sarcasm with sarcasm... really )

Because their roles are absolutely conventional in TWW. TWW is, obviously that game that has experimented most with both Zelda and Ganondorf. But I forgot you hate TWW irrationally and there's nothing there to be appreciated ¬¬

Not absolutely no, especially not Zelda's. But that's because she, essentially, became a new character, Tetra.
Ganondorf however while having a little more depth was as conventional as ever.
And while my hate of TWW is all but irrational, I have never denied its (few) merits, like actually trying to come up with an original story and move the continuity toward a new direction (but that is, only if Hyrule, Ganondorf and even Zelda to an extent, will remain things of the past in games to come in its new timeline).

[spunky-monkey]

As for the rest of this thread, I'd have to say I don't believe Zelda has gone stale. People always say "Another Fire dungeon?! This game's just like Ocarina of Time!", but personally I find that logic to be a load of crap. What matters is how fun a certain level is. For instance, Twilight Princess had a fire dungeon that was better than all previous fire dungeons, one that had originality and an interesting design. Should it still be criticized for being a "fire" dungeon? God no. As long as a dungeon is fun, the "theme" of the dungeon doesn't really matter. In fact, I enjoy seeing different twists on an idea.

Well here's my two cents on the story; players have found the elemental themed dungeons are going a bit overkill as of late, yes they were exciting once but after playing through yet another bloody forest-level for the bazillionth time it gets very old very fast. Some stages I've seen are so dull and linear that they're not memorable in the slightest; however there're some fascinating not to mention diverse dungeons the Zelda series has provided us like Ganon's Tower (ALttP), The Eagle's Tower, Inside Jabu-Jabu's Belly, Arbiter's Grounds, City In The Sky, Palace of Twilight and Stone Tower all of which are unique and leave a lasting 'imprint' on us afterwards. When these level designs also feature an item that enables Link to work out every obstacle and clear a route onto the boss then we get the feeling of accomplishment.

I think it's hard to write out Ganondorf completely because, let's face it... Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the main characters. Plotwise, moreso Zelda and Ganondorf since Link never speaks. Zelda and Ganondorf go hand in hand.

Obviously we can't remove Link as he is the actual main character as we all know, everyone else though is expendable storyline-wise. And because Link is a mute it allows for better character-development and/or NPC interaction of the game's cast, assuming there's any plot of course.

Which is why I am in favor of ending the series at least temporarily and starting a spin-off "Legend of Something/one". Doesn't matter if it is Legend of Tetra or Legend of Midna or even Legend of Link or Legend of Vaati (or a completely new character), I just want to get away from playing through the same plot again and again.

Like a follow-up to Adventure of Link? That would be a -very- bold move for Nintendo, even Eiji wouldn't be so reckless as to turn the franchise on its head, so in terms of probability I don't believe that's ever going to happen.

Am I the only one who wants a game that explains more about the Fierce Diety Mask?

That spirit was basically Termina's version of Link: dark, powerful and malevolent.
No back-story is given or required and that probably adds to the mystery of MM. Since Koume and Kotake the wicked Gerudo witches from Ocarina were shown in this parallel world as kindly old potion-makers and tourist guides then it's not unreasonable to assume Ganondorf's unseen counterpart was a librarian or cleaner somewhere in Clock Town. *I can imagine him doing that evil laugh if your book's overdue* =D

[Fyxe]

and Phantom Hourglass wasn't even fucking finished (or, as it feels, game tested at all) and made incredibly weak attempts to be different WindWaker.

*Spits tea out of her mouth* Wuzzahwha!?

Splashy, luv ya, but where ya getting all that from? o.o I know you mentioned some glitches on the Help page but that seems to be limited to your catridge, because I have not come across a single glitch during my time playing the game. Get it replaced maybe? o.o

[Duke Serkol]

Am I the only one who wants a game that explains more about the Fierce Diety Mask?

That spirit was basically Termina's version of Link: dark, powerful and malevolent.

I thought that was Chinkuru... (and yes, I do mean also the dark, malevolent part. Dunno about powerful )

But in all seriousness, dark and mighty Terminian version of Link, sure I could accept that, but why call it a deity's mask?

Edited by Duke Serkol, 14 November 2007 - 08:13 PM.

[Masamune]

I think it's hard to write out Ganondorf completely because, let's face it... Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf are the main characters. Plotwise, moreso Zelda and Ganondorf since Link never speaks. Zelda and Ganondorf go hand in hand.

Obviously we can't remove Link as he is the actual main character as we all know, everyone else though is expendable storyline-wise. And because Link is a mute it allows for better character-development and/or NPC interaction of the game's cast, assuming there's any plot of course.

Well yeah. That was my point. Link may fill the third Triforce role, but otherwise... he can go anywhere. As a silent protagonist, his plot involvement doesn't have as many demands as Zelda and Ganon do.

[spunky-monkey]

But in all seriousness, dark and mighty Terminian version of Link, sure I could accept that, but why call it a deity's mask?

Nintendo of America messing things up again; his Japanese name was Oni Link though I don't know enough about their folklore and culture other than Oni stands for "Demon" so that dead version of Link is essentially evil; but then again their mythology could have demons that belonged in a good or neutral allignment.

Edited by Ricky, 15 November 2007 - 05:02 AM.

[Fyxe]

The mask isn't just called Oni, I'm fairly sure it's Onigami (or Onikami, something like that) which literally does mean something very akin to Fierce Deity. I'm fairly sure it makes a lot more sense in Japan anyway, that whole bit.

[Jumbie]

True, his Kanji can be read as Onigami but also as Kishin or Kijin which means the same thing. Oni/Ki is an ogre, Kami/Shin is a deity.
I've seen two Japanese fanartists romanize the name as Kishin Link, commenting that he's known as Oni(gami) Link among westerners.
Some dictionaries translate the complete name as "fierce god", others as "demon" or "dead person's soul".
Also, though most know this, Oni is in Japan the name of the chaser in children's tag game.

[Duke Serkol]

Also, though most know this, Oni is in Japan the name of the chaser in children's tag game.

Don'y you mean the chased? StalKid gives you the mask so you can be "it" (and only run).

[Jumbie]

Don'y you mean the chased? StalKid gives you the mask so you can be "it" (and only run).

Dunno, but where I live only one kid is "it", the chasing one, and all others run away.

[Xkeeper]

So yeah, if they could do that, great, but seeing as they appear unable to pull it off, I'd rather get away from the stale plot by changing it entirely. Honestly, how many times can it be epic to stop ol' pig from conquering the world?

Wow. I'm going to arbitrarily want Nintendo to do stuff I know they'll never do with the series too! Yay!

Seriously though. If I'm going to make demands of where Zelda goes, at least I may as well be realistic about it. Them spinning off the series to "Legend of Link" or whatever is unlikely. They're going to keep working with Ganon and Zelda as long as the series is around. May as well be realistic about it and hope they do something original.

Hi, my name is Link's Awakening and I would like to slap you across the face.

It's one of the many reasons (note: one of, not the) I love that game dearly. You're not going around saving Hyrule for the seventeenth time. There's no Gan(n)on. There's no Zelda, either. You. New characters. New story. New world.

Ages and Seasons were nice in this vein too, but they still had a lot of traditional TLoZ characters (Impa, Zelda, Ganon), especially near the end. Minish Cap was back in Hyrule and featured Zelda all over again, just with Va(a/t)ti instead of Ganon.

You can do something different with the series every once in a while, Nintendo. You don't have to reinvent Zelda, Hyrule, and Ganon every single goddamn game.

[Duke Serkol]

Hi, my name is Link's Awakening and I would like to slap you across the face.

It's one of the many reasons (note: one of, not the) I love that game dearly. You're not going around saving Hyrule for the seventeenth time. There's no Gan(n)on. There's no Zelda, either. You. New characters. New story. New world.

Ages and Seasons were nice in this vein too, but they still had a lot of traditional TLoZ characters (Impa, Zelda, Ganon), especially near the end. Minish Cap was back in Hyrule and featured Zelda all over again, just with Va(a/t)ti instead of Ganon.

You can do something different with the series every once in a while, Nintendo. You don't have to reinvent Zelda, Hyrule, and Ganon every single goddamn game.

Friggin seconded. LA has to be the Zelda game with the best non-Ganon/Hyrule related story. And it was a parody to boot.
It's too bad Phantom Hourglass while good doesn't even come close to its awesomeness (especially in terms of story, I mean).

[FDL]

I disagree, Majora's Mask was the best non-Hyrule game, and the best Zelda game so far as well, in my opinion. We need characters to have schedules again...

[Eblel]

What if they were to add platforming elements in amongst the puzzle solving? Instead of jumping automatically, you'd have full control of when you jump, and it'd allow then to place objects and other items above Link's head anywhere in the game world.

Something tells me cel-shading would be a perect style to do this with. realistic visuals and manual jumping could look and feel awkward.

Also, I do feel they need to move away from the Ganondorf story. I'd like a new villian, and a new world. But more than anything, dungeons that don't fit into the usual archetypes. But forest I'd like, but that's because I never get tired of forest areas.

For a villian, how about Majora? We don't actually know who he/she is, and their power would likely be immense if we're to judge from the power imbued in the mask.

Edited by Eblel, 09 December 2007 - 11:43 PM.

[Xkeeper]

The Oracle series had a few of those. They weren't too great (hard to do things with pure side-scrolling), but what little puzzles there were mostly involved well-timed jumping and such... Am I the only one who misses Roc's Feather (or similar)? Automatic jumping just feels stupid, especially when jumping adds a whole new layer to gameplay... but that's just me, I guess.

(I'm still all for making a game that doesn't involve Zelda or Ganon at all, though.)

[Selena]

realistic visuals and manual jumping could look and feel awkward.

....Well, most other action games incorporate the two well enough.

Never did understand the auto-jumping in Zelda when all the other action games let you do it yourself. The auto-jumping is fine until the game decides to be a jerk and conveniently 'forget' to propel you up into the air. Usually over lava. Stupid Ocarina of Time. Almost as strange as Solid Snake being able to climb ladders and fall, but not jump. Over anything. That fallen log? We must crawl on our bellies. Because he's Snake, and jumping is for sissies!

[Chaltab]

I kept hoping that Wind Waker and later Twilight Princess would have a Roc's Feather Item. Alas, it was not to be.

[Mad Scrub]

Link shouldn't require an item to jump or to swim for that matter. Although the top down games rely more heavily on those two items in order for the story to progress properly and the dungeons to be done in the right order.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 11 December 2007 - 08:16 PM.

[Xkeeper]

Link jumps (with the Feather) his entire height into the air, and optionally just as long horizontally. Any "normal" jumping aside from that wouldn't even be showable (maybe a pixel or two, whoopee), so that makes sense.

Flippers make little sense as well, unless they're used to make you swim a) faster or b) deeper. Normal swimming could just be slow, if nothing else.

[Chaltab]

Yeah. I think normal jumping things should just be handled with auto jumping, but for really big jumps, use the Roc's feather.