114 replies to this topic

[spunky-monkey]

Yahtzee has created this Zero Punctuation review on Phantom Hourglass which seems to have parallel views on how I feel about the newest Zelda game too. Although I don't like the overall rushed presentation, quite frankly I admire that thought-provoking and honest opinion of his that's so desperately lacking on the Internet these days...


However I'm afraid this video is for MATURE people - there's realistic AVGN-style swearing involved and whatnot.


^ You have been warned. I don't wanna hear any complaints about people getting offended because that's just too bad, for you. ;P


Zero-Punctuation Review


Ultimately its just a video meant to make us laugh, but do you agree with his views on the game/franchise?

[Fyxe]

Phantom Hourglass is fucking wonderful.

So before I even read the 'review': no. I don't agree and I think people are whiny bastards who need to get over the fact that they're merely getting older. Yes, that's why Zelda seems stale to you, because you're older. The series is nearly 22 years old and has 13 major installments. I think it's astonishing that it's got so far without more regular complaining about it being 'stale'.

Nintendo can't win, frankly. Nintendo focuses on a beautiful and unique visual style and atmosphere with TWW and people complain. So they trip over themselves to follow the fan's wishes and do a 'realistic' game with TP and it doesn't sell as well as it could in Japan and people still complain. Then they do a brilliant and intuative new control system and allow the player to make notes in-game and fix most of TWW's gameplay faults in one handheld package and people STILL complain.

Enough already. To the endless whiners: go play another series for awhile. Find a series that has as many installments and is less stale than Zelda. I double dare you.

[Veteran]

The review is not a review since he didn't play the game to the end giving up in the Temple of the Ocean King because he was annoyed at having to go through the same rooms again conveniently missing out on the half-way time save warp feature. I decided to not include any commas in the previous sentence because neither did he. So seeing as he stopped playing the game, I stopped watching the review at his point of admission.

I too think PH is fucking wonderful, ranking it very highly on my Zelda list. I admit I was worried about Zelda as a series before playing PH, but as I no longer care about an overall storyline or continuity, the next game can be a carbon-copy plot of a previous Zelda for all I care as long as the game is fun to play. I had enormous amounts of fun with PH and that's really all I want.

[Tekky]

I disagree with him about the staleness of the series, but did find that video hilarious! Particularly with his comment on the Temple of the Ocean King... It's part of the reason why I am bored of it (And yes I do have the midpoint activated! It still annoys me)

The other thing I hate about PH is the repetitiveness of the music... LA did a lot better and it was for an 8-bit system! Don't get me wrong, the sailing music is pretty decent, but the SAME BLOODY island and dungeon music just irritates me. It's not even inspiring (in my opinion of course) like the kick ass music of ALttP was!

[Duke Serkol]

I agree with Veteran, I was worried about Zelda growing stale, but PH has reassured me greatly, at least with regard to gameplay. I'm certainly looking forward to the next Wii game even more now.
I still care for story though, especially in relation to other games, and while PH was mroe original than TP, I really wish they did not "kill off" the game's story in the end like they did (as I'm sure most people do).

I also agree with Tekky, if this game has one flaw (besides the ending) that's music. Most islands had the same music and just about every dungeon... what the heck is up with that?

[darthsauron]

Man, I am a walking contradiction. All of my complaining and bitching and moaning, etc.., has been about how the latest Zelda games have been too easy and too similar. PH fits both of those criteria, yet I get the game, and I have a fucking blast with it. The Pol's Voice being brought back was neat (although underused). The boss battles were all pretty easy, but I had more fun fighting the bosses than I've had in a long time. I don't know what it was, but this game made me smile, a lot.

[Arturo]

I finished PH yesterday and I personally found this game to be somewhat of a deception. Yes, it's decent, the controls are great and it has taken some of TWW obvious flaws and improved them But the story was too simplistic (made OoA look complex), music was repetitive and, above all, the game was short and easy. I swear, I felt much better after completing Tingle than PH. The difference is that Tngle made you work for things, while PH made everything too easy. I know that I am growing up and that. But I've never been what one calls a "hardcore" gamer. I am not that good at playing, I have not completed LoZ or AoL. I don't want difficulty to be frustrating. I want the game to have a decent level. Like ALttP. It should have two difficulty levels, of course, because of new gamers. But Tingle has made me realize how more enjoyable somewhat difficult games are.


And the Temple of the Ocean King was annoying.

[spunky-monkey]

I don't agree and I think people are whiny bastards who need to get over the fact that they're merely getting older. Yes, that's why Zelda seems stale to you, because you're older. The series is nearly 22 years old and has 13 major installments. I think it's astonishing that it's got so far without more regular complaining about it being 'stale'.

Fyxe, I respect your somewhat bais viewpoint on PH though there's no need to be so defensive or resort to generalizations regarding ageism (I can't help but feel you're making a personal jab). Whether I agree or disagree with this guy's opinion is irrelevant as I am in no ways a hardcore fanboy and cannot speak for the community; I've enjoyed playing most Zelda games before because they were enjoyable - not to mention being atmospheric and having cinematic storyline throw in the mix. If Zelda doesn't meet these qualities or expectations then, quite frankly I'll drop it faster than a sack of potatoes. Why? Because this isn't China and games aren't cheap.

This guy attacking the franchise for its originality did honestly feel like a kick in the teeth, however I actually found some painful truth in his arguments which leaves me at a crossroad. *get key, defeat boss, get item, use item on big boss, save princess, watch melancholy ending* >.>

Nintendo can't win, frankly. Nintendo focuses on a beautiful and unique visual style and atmosphere with TWW and people complain. So they trip over themselves to follow the fan's wishes and do a 'realistic' game with TP and it doesn't sell as well as it could in Japan and people still complain. Then they do a brilliant and intuative new control system and allow the player to make notes in-game and fix most of TWW's gameplay faults in one handheld package and people STILL complain.

No, Nintendo CAN win, as shown in the review but they've chosen to ignore all our suggestions/complaints; I hope their arrogance bites them on the arse eventually. No one's said TWW malformed presentation wasn't beautiful; just deeply flawed from a gamplay, plot and continuity perspective. I mean this is supposed to follow after Ocarina of Time's adult ending yet Ganon still merrily uses Phantom Ganon only after he deemed it utterly worthless banishing it to the gap between dimensions? Ganon breaking the perfect seal with no explanation? KoRL knowing about MM? It's these plotholes and horrible inconsistences that rile me up, I don't expect perfection but damn, Nintendo is insulting our intelligence.

The review is not a review since he didn't play the game to the end giving up in the Temple of the Ocean King because he was annoyed at having to go through the same rooms again conveniently missing out on the half-way time save warp feature. I decided to not include any commas in the previous sentence because neither did he. So seeing as he stopped playing the game, I stopped watching the review at his point of admission.

Since when was it necessary for a reviewer to complete a game before giving it the 'thumbs down' or vote of no confidence? Hardly ever. Its these "broken gameplay" and "tedious repetitive backtracking" arguments that deeply concern me because any Zelda title should possess decent playability; I might point out that Yahtzee quit PH halfway-through merely demonstrates to audiences this game may not be as entertaining as some people claim.

The other thing I hate about PH is the repetitiveness of the music... LA did a lot better and it was for an 8-bit system! Don't get me wrong, the sailing music is pretty decent, but the SAME BLOODY island and dungeon music just irritates me. It's not even inspiring (in my opinion of course) like the kick ass music of ALttP was!

Its worrying how I find every new Zelda installment's music seems to suck harder and harder than the previous. Was Koji Kondo involved in this game's development? I don't recall.

[Fyxe]

Fyxe, I respect your somewhat bais viewpoint on PH though there's no need to be so defensive or resort to generalizations regarding ageism (I can't help but feel you're making a personal jab).

I'm older than many people here, so I'm not sure how it's a personal jab.

Why? Because this isn't China and games aren't cheap.

No, but we're rich in comparison. Also American games are notably cheaper than games over here in England. If anyone should be complaining about price it should be me. And I do. But I don't complain endlessly about games I already spent money on. Phantom Hourglass got great scores and it deserved them. That's it.

This guy attacking the franchise for its originality did honestly feel like a kick in the teeth, however I actually found some painful truth in his arguments which leaves me at a crossroad. *get key, defeat boss, get item, use item on big boss, save princess, watch melancholy ending* >.>

Hey, you know what? The same simplistic and childish breakdown of gameplay structure can be used on any game franchise in existence. Sure, if you ignore all the innovations and unique things, yes, the games are all similar, but that's an idiotic thing to do. I could say Metroid Prime 3 Corruption is just like the old Metroid games because it's all about *wander around, fight boss, get item, use item to open up new area, fight next boss and use the item to help, continue to end* but that's ignoring the entirely new control method, the clever new uses of old and new items, the great bosses and the excellent and imaginative environments, cinematic presentation and well-defined difficulty. Frankly, it's stupid to boil a game down to the bare bones and claim that as all the game is. The same thing could have been done to ALttP, OoT and even MM. It's not an intelligent criticism in the slightest.

No, Nintendo CAN win, as shown in the review but they've chosen to ignore all our suggestions/complaints; I hope their arrogance bites them on the arse eventually.

Why the hell do you think TP existed if they weren't listening to all the fans whining about never getting the Spaceworld version of Zelda? They are listening. I wish they weren't.

I mean this is supposed to follow after Ocarina of Time's adult ending yet Ganon still merrily uses Phantom Ganon only after he deemed it utterly worthless banishing it to the gap between dimensions? Ganon breaking the perfect seal with no explanation? KoRL knowing about MM?

Blah blah blah who cares. TWW was meant to be a reset of the system. The fact that they mentioned OoT at all is simply to appease all the rabid OoT fans and give them little references to notice. Who CARES if it's not 'consistent'? Most people don't give a damn. I certainly don't give a monkeys. You seem to have taken those 'inconsitencies' rather personally and way too seriously. Nobody said that Phantom Ganon can't be improved and reused. Nobody said the seal was perfect (it clearly never was, since the seal was broken in ALttP as well) and what the heck does the KoRL know about MM and actually I don't care so don't answer that.

It's these plotholes and horrible inconsistences that rile me up, I don't expect perfection but damn, Nintendo is insulting our intelligence.

I think it expects us to understand what a 'The Legend of Zelda begins anew' means. Also it expects us to care a little less than you do.

Since when was it necessary for a reviewer to complete a game before giving it the 'thumbs down' or vote of no confidence? Hardly ever.

You joke, right? What bollocks. Any reviewer worth listening to at least finished a game instead of pulling an uninformed opinion out of their ass. If they don't complete the game, they're not a reviewer. They're a bitchy gamer who's half-assed opinion is worth squat.

I might point out that Yahtzee quit PH halfway-through merely demonstrates to audiences this game may not be as entertaining as some people claim.

One moron on Youtube counts in any way whatsoever? News to me.

I do agree that the dungeon music is overly minimalistic though. But I blame OoT for starting that trend in the first place.

[spunky-monkey]

No, but we're rich in comparison. Also American games are notably cheaper than games over here in England. If anyone should be complaining about price it should be me. And I do.

I know. We're practically next-door, remember?

Hey, you know what? The same simplistic and childish breakdown of gameplay structure can be used on any game franchise in existence. Sure, if you ignore all the innovations and unique things, yes, the games are all similar, but that's an idiotic thing to do.

Call it whatever you want; now it's possible to mix up the traditional structure into something more task-orientated without falling back on innovation alone. Majora's Mask managed to modify the gameplay formula into something fairly unique, however, these new aspects were presented in the form of optional side-quests and most people (with limited attention spans) back then pathetically complained about how much it differed from Ocarina.

Fact is, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess gameplay has become so stagnant that nothing in-between beginning and end is truly memorable about your adventure: I've played TP several times and yet already I'm starting to forget some of the boss fights and secondary character's names, that's BAD. I've noticed Zelda doesn't even focus on obtaining individual items, their functionality or acquiring post-worthy optional items like ALttP, OoT and MM did; the game doesn't give you a sense of accomplishment, maybe crap difficulty or poor rewards are to blame. Metroid at least isn't afraid to mesh out new ideas/concepts that actually make the chore of backtracking fun, in some sense elements in Metroid have weirdly replaced or improved upon Zelda's mechanics.

Why the hell do you think TP existed if they weren't listening to all the fans whining about never getting the Spaceworld version of Zelda? They are listening. I wish they weren't.

I wish I could believe that. Being rushed Twilight Princess in some areas was more flawed than Wind Waker; the total absence of side-quests shows Nintendo almost deliberately made mistakes. Hang on, this isn't paranoia because these components of the main quest are inexplicably absent we realise you don't just accidentally forget something that essential; Eiji or marketing probably wasn't listening after all, given how they admitted being detached from the rest of their own team. I tell you this would never have happened under Shigeru's supervision.

Blah blah blah who cares. TWW was meant to be a reset of the system.

No, from the creator's perspective they always intended TWW to be OoT's proper "sequel" whereas MM was simply a side-story. I consider them wrong on both accounts.

I think it expects us to understand what a 'The Legend of Zelda begins anew' means. Also it expects us to care a little less than you do.

Then why did they go to such trouble of putting all OoT character references throughout the game? Why not start anew by not quoting older games and the Hero of Time/Legendary Hero so much?

I do agree that the dungeon music is overly minimalistic though. But I blame OoT for starting that trend in the first place.

Wait a minute. What are you talking about? Ocarina of Time has nothing to do with this rising trend, now I think you're just irrationally bashing it for no reason at all because fanbase annoys you. We've all found every single piece of dungeon music featured was distinctive and easily recognizable, unlike the butchered midi job that was TP.

[Xkeeper]

Since when was it necessary for a reviewer to complete a game before giving it the 'thumbs down' or vote of no confidence? Hardly ever.

You joke, right? What bollocks. Any reviewer worth listening to at least finished a game instead of pulling an uninformed opinion out of their ass. If they don't complete the game, they're not a reviewer. They're a bitchy gamer who's half-assed opinion is worth squat.

Fun fact: Those who are forced to continue playing a game "just to have an opionion" are probably very likely to rate that game less and less the more they play it. You don't decide to rip your eyes out just because you started, you stop because it's a stupid thing to do.

I might point out that Yahtzee quit PH halfway-through merely demonstrates to audiences this game may not be as entertaining as some people claim.

One moron on Youtube counts in any way whatsoever? News to me.

One moron writing a review for some magazine that probably requires good scores to keep advertising counts in any way whatsoever? News to me.

[Arturo]

Yet Ganon still merrily uses Phantom Ganon only after he deemed it utterly worthless banishing it to the gap between dimensions?

Because he cannot create as many Phantoms as he wants to.

Ganon breaking the perfect seal with no explanation?

Who knows, maybe he used the same system as in ALttP but it just went alright. Anyway, it's not relevant.

KoRL knowing about MM?

Emm no. NOA made that up. Where the English version says that the Hero went to a trip, the other versions say he went to a trip through time i. e. the one at the adult ending of OoT.

Honestly, TWW is the most consistent game within the series. there were way more inconsistencies between OoT and ALttP, ALttP and AoL and even AoL and LoZ.c It's just you like seeing the story of TWW as flawed, when it's at least, better told and more original than the rest of the series

[Fyxe]

*Raises an eyebrow at the two replies she got*

Oooohhkay.
I can't be bothered, frankly. Ricky, sounds like you simply don't like Zelda games, so stop buying them. Also, way to ignore half of my post. Xkeeper, your simplistic idea of video game journalism that you pulled out of your butt ignores all the good scores PH has been getting from entirely unbiased media.

Edited by Fyxe, 08 November 2007 - 02:01 PM.

[Wanchimaera]

You know, if you break any concept down to the basic elements as this guy did with PH, you're going to get the same result. It's a cop-out for saying he didn't like it. One of my best friends hates Zelda for the same exact reason. He's a Final Fantasy fanatic, and because Zelda games aren't just like FF, he breaks the series down to those same elementary elements to explain why he doesn't like it.

As far as music goes, I though TP did a pretty good job. However, it would've been nice to have had real instruments instead of synthesizers. I'm left handed and broke, so I've been discouraged from getting a DS, so I'll probably never play PH. Also, I've never really been a fan of touch screens.

[Alastair]

The review was entertaining enough, though many of the criticisms were extremely disingenuous. The reviewer seemed to strongly dislike the WW animation style used, which would be a reasonable view (if somewhat immature*) if he had not known that the game was a direct sequel to tWW. Nintendo were also heavily criticized for releasing essentially the same game time and again with updated graphics. I am sure that the reviewer is aware both that Nintendo are far from alone in having long running franchizes and that, unlike most other developers, Nintendo constantly seek to add new variations to established formats. He also condemned the game for repeating tWWs' flaw of tedious sailing quests, suggesting that he has not played enough of the game to discover that there are no such sailing quests, and that the interruptions to sailing the he dislikes actually help to maintain interest.

I don't think the reviewer meant for his oppinions to be taken too seriously. The intent seems to have been to make the review as ammusing as possible, rather than an accurate criticism of the game. Personally I consider PH to be excellently paced with a great balance between the main plotline and engaging sidequests. Having defeated the final boss I still feel that there is a lot more to the game to discover. My only would criticism would be that Nintendo have tried to be too innovative with the controls, replacing a system that works all the time with one that works the majority of the time.


Regarding the series as a whole, Ricky, most of your criticisms focus on elements that are only relevent to someone who has played previous games. Whilst it would be nice if Nintendo gave some thought to overall coherency their main priority has to be making the game they are devloping as enjoyable as possible. This may mean sacrificing consistency with a previous games' plot in order to create a more immersive stand alone game.





*I'm not sure why I expected any different from a grown man who gives Link the moniker "Fagballs".

[Arturo]

I'm left handed and broke, so I've been discouraged from getting a DS, so I'll probably never play PH. Also, I've never really been a fan of touch screens.

What has being left-handed have to do with that? I mean, most Games I know have been designed for both right and left handed. PH, in particular can be controled with either hand.

[Wanchimaera]

I wasn't necessarily singling out PH, but I've tried the left handed feature on a few DS games and I have found it to be a bit awkward at times. It must just be me.

[D~N]

I hate "life" because it's always the same thing: wake up - eat - school - eat - go to sleep. I hate "skydiving" because it's always the same thing: get on the plane - jump out - land.

You can make anything sound s absolutely shitty if you break it down like that. I'm guilty of this, as sometimes I'll use it as the core of my own arguments. Still, it's a terrible way to prove a point, like Fyxe has said.

However, there's one thing I disagree with Fyxe on: If you hate a game SO much that you have to stop playing it, then that's a perfectly good reason to give it a bad review. A game should make you want to play through it, so if it fails in that category, it fails in the most important category. Like, if a movie is so bad that you walk out on it (perhaps demanding a refund), then that's the same thing. You're not gunna tell a friend to go see this movie.

However, that isn't to say you shouldn't give things a chance. Otherwise that's just a presumptious review, and that's no good at all. I don't think PH needed a chance; I think it was fun from the start, but that shouldn't change anything.

This wasn't, or hasn't been, an easy game for me thus far. I'm not done

I just rescued Tetra from the Ghost ship, so I think I might be close, but I don't know...

but so far this has been pretty challenging. The bosses are so unique and inspired, the puzles are FRESH!, and the flaws from past games are fixed. And I've been stumped not on puzzles, but on enemies! This is somehting I've wanted since LoZ! At first, I couldn't defeat the Zola Knight (who still gives me some trouble) and I absolutely loved Pols Voice! Phantoms, as with all stealth missions in video games, are loads of fun, and I don't see how anyone could not enjoy the Ocean King's Temple. The graphics blow me away, and the entire input system is great. The stylus controls are great. However, just like with Kirby Canvas Curse, I wouldn't mide a return to Zelda's roots in the next game, even though both KCC and PH were kickin'.

Music...uhh. Wtf happened here Nintendo? Ocean = amazing. Everything else...I think I could write better music and I CAN'T READ NOTES. (side note; I can play the piano fluently by ear, and have master almost every Zelda song, Phoenix Wright, Mario, Metroid...maybe one of these day's I'll put myself on YouTube) But seriously, they really could have done much better. Battle mode has some good tunes, what with the classic overworld song. I'd dissagree with the notion that OoT started this trend - I think it was MM, whose dungeons I can neither remember their respective names nor their tunes. Well, Stone Tower Temple aside, the other three, if I recall correctly, has very atmospheric music (i.e.: chanting, etc.) Though perhaps it's been so long I simply do not rememeber. Correct me if I am falsely besmirching MM.

TP had great music, but again, the temples left something to be desired. They weren't horrible though- far from it! Temple of Time, Snowpeak Ruins and City in the Sky all had great tunes, and come to think of it, the Palace of Twilight and Hyrule Castle were good too. But again, we're left with very generic, atmospheric songs for the forest-fire-water temples (Lakebed was "eh") and the same for the Arbiter's grounds. I hardly, if at all, remember these tunes, but the entire rest of the game has a phenominal soundtrack, reguardless of midi/file-type/whatever. So quit with all the TP hatin', you know you love it.

...the total absence of side-quests...

...forget something that essential...

...am I the only one who sees and understands that side-quests are NOT essential, and that's why they're called SIDE quests?! They're a bonus to the player, and if you want to play a game of side quests and mini-games, then go play Mario Party or Wario-Ware. The Main Adventure is in-tact and it's GREAT, and that's what's important.
(If I'm misquoting you let me know, because I kinda pulled apart your sentences and stuck them together and stuff...)

All in all - no, Zelda isn't getting stale. However, I will note that it isn't the ONLY game, or even the only genre that I play anymore. I've expanded my tastes, and if Zelda seems to be getting easier for you, than I suggest you do the same! Zelda could still use a fresh start, though. And it looks like we're getting one, thanks to TWW and Eiji's famous "last traditional Zelda as you know it" promise...Let's just hope it's good *crosses fingers*

Edited by D~N, 08 November 2007 - 03:59 PM.

[Xkeeper]

entirely unbiased media

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


I'm sorry this reply has no comment content, but thank you for completely making my day! I will be laughing at this for hours to come.

Edited by Xkeeper, 08 November 2007 - 07:08 PM.

[Fyxe]

Well, that was childish.

Why don't all the cool new people post in the Zelda section. Boo. Someone get Shekey in here. ;-;

[Xkeeper]

No, your idea that anything can be "completely unbiased" -- especially a magazine, which, by the way, needs advertising to survive, is laughable beyond most words.

Why do you think few games get low scores these days? Yeah.

[Fyxe]

Could you be any more patronising? I know exactly what you were referring to. It's pointless. ugh, enough.

[spunky-monkey]

Because he cannot create as many Phantoms as he wants to.

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Who knows, maybe he used the same system as in ALttP but it just went alright. Anyway, it's not relevant.

Well, it certainly IS relevant when we're dealing with the main antagonist of Wind Waker, if we take that kind of attitude then the game practically had no coherent storyline whatsoever.

Honestly, TWW is the most consistent game within the series. there were way more inconsistencies between OoT and ALttP, ALttP and AoL and even AoL and LoZ.c It's just you like seeing the story of TWW as flawed, when it's at least, better told and more original than the rest of the series

TWW isn't even consistent within itself, let alone the vague ambiguous connections to the other Zelda games. Back in 1998 no one ever expected the first game in the chronology (Ocarina of Time) to directly link to ALttP's prologue, yes it *could* have been accomplished by including the knights and having Ganon acquire the full Triforce before being sealed away, BUT the creators and scriptwriters obviously chose a different direction for the series. Wind Waker's flaw is there's no clear objective besides saving your sister (a fault that Twilight Princess also suffers from mid-ways into the game after Link saves the kids) also KoRL constantly reminds you to save the sunken Hyrule only to selfishly destroy his own kingdom thereby making Link's entire ordeal including his final battle a joke.

I can't be bothered, frankly. Ricky, sounds like you simply don't like Zelda games, so stop buying them. Also, way to ignore half of my post.

Wait because I think Phantom Hourglass isn't 'super special awesome' you automatically assume I should quit this specific genre of gaming; now that's as ridiculous as saying someone who doesn't like shitbomb Terminator 3 shouldn't be allowed to watch ANY sci-fi thriller movies ever again. Fyxe, its only Yahtzee's opinion that PH isn't worth its so called weight in gold that we're debating, but I'm not expecting anyone to change their views on this subject; however I do expect people to give justification for said purchase and glorious praise given without responding to criticism by using irrational statements on par with:- "You are so mean! Stop playing Zelda you big bully!"
Can you see my point?

Also I didn't completely ignore your post. *sigh* I wish people wouldn't be so pessimistic whenever this happens; I'm pressed for time as it is and cannot possibly respond to every argument everyone makes within one lengthy quote so try and be a tiny bit more considerate.

It's a cop-out for saying he didn't like it.

How is it a cop-out? Anyone's free to like or dislike a particular video game.

He also condemned the game for repeating tWWs' flaw of tedious sailing quests, suggesting that he has not played enough of the game to discover that there are no such sailing quests, and that the interruptions to sailing the he dislikes actually help to maintain interest.

Actually, he condemned it for sailing, not for sailing quests.

Regarding the series as a whole, Ricky, most of your criticisms focus on elements that are only relevent to someone who has played previous games.

Umm, I honestly never thought my criticism was ever relevant to anyone other than those who've already played older Zelda games. If they haven't then they should.

...am I the only one who sees and understands that side-quests are NOT essential, and that's why they're called SIDE quests?! They're a bonus to the player, and if you want to play a game of side quests and mini-games, then go play Mario Party or Wario-Ware.

Not being nasty but, what kind of logical advice is this? Go play Wario-Ware instead? Thanks D~N, but no thanks. ;3 This generation of Zelda is supposed to have many side quests and mini-games otherwise there's no replay value, heck it doesn't even amuse players for a decent lifespan if there aren't any optional quests we can undertake; or provide any sense of freedom for that matter. Yes they're essential.

I've expanded my tastes, and if Zelda seems to be getting easier for you, than I suggest you do the same! Zelda could still use a fresh start, though. And it looks like we're getting one, thanks to TWW and Eiji's famous "last traditional Zelda as you know it" promise...Let's just hope it's good *crosses fingers*

I'm not lowering my standards, ever. Eiji can, with all due respect, fuck off if he think's he can reinvent the franchise and turn it into a cashcow considering I've played (and still am playing) ALttP, LA, OoT, MM, OoS and OoA everyday to this day.

Edited by Ricky, 09 November 2007 - 05:39 AM.

[Veteran]

Personally I think your standards are rather high, but that might be because my standards are rather low. That bit about Phantom Ganon sounds a little pedantic to me since the games are in my eyes not following a fixed interpretation or storyline. Sure they can be linked together but clearly the one game takes precedence over complimenting another that came before it. I see it as the designers throw whatever they want into the one game and if it happens to 'agree' with a previous Zelda then great, if it contradicts then they don't care.

But you're entitled to want them to want to care. That's probably how I feeled around the MM era. I was superficial enough to be a Celda basher and TWW was the game that made me change my Zelda perspective. I started to care more about the game and less about the story, specifically how well the story fitted into the overall continuity. Having worried about the TWW design before then enjoying the game after, I realised it wasn't my expectations of the game that made me a Celda basher, but my desire for it to fit into a storyline and general worry about the direction of the series. This happened again here with PH, not because of it's design, but because of my dislike with the previous handheld Zelda.

I only dislike two Zeldas, FSA and TMC. But I dislike them for specific reasons (the level-based system in FSA, and kinstones in TMC), apart from those niggles I liked everything else. Those two faults though were big enough to distract me from the rest of the games. So because of these two games coming out in the Anouma era, I was worried about the series in terms of quality, not story. TP was good and I had a blast with all the dungeons and bosses, it was lacking in the overworld department but not enough to distract me. Then I play PH, find it a nice challenge to get to grips with controlling Link (even dying repeatedly which hasn't happened to me for ages), liking the graphical capabilities of the DS, the new ways items work (grappling hook FTW, Ice Temple boss is wonderful), able to die during sailing, fishing... just everything about it. Only one thing annoyed me and that was Jolene interfering with exploration over and over again until later in the game, especially after Linebeck stops giving you money for defeating her.

I can totally see why there are mixed reactions to the Temple of the Ocean King. But I didn't see it as anything but a time-based puzzle. Running around it, making mental notes of where the future item bits were, trying to find the quickest route to the next floor... I saw it as strategy rather than stealth. And rewarding once you can kill the Phantom dudes. I went through the first six floors again just to get a better time!

So, whilst you shouldn't necessarily lower your standards, you have to realise that the series can go on without you and will take into account newer gamers over older gamers more often than not. We can be thankful that Zelda games are becoming more and more diverse and trying new things because it shows the attention and care that Nintendo has with it. The story may remain the same, but the game itself will more than likely feel different to a previous one. The series would become stale if they simply re-did the great games of the past. Those games are exactly that - in the past. They were awesome, but they've come and gone. It's foolish to expect an identically awesome future Zelda game. Absolutely one will come along that I detest, but I'm now of the mindset that the next one after it probably won't suck as much.

[Xkeeper]

Xkeeper, your simplistic idea of video game journalism that you pulled out of your butt ignores all the good scores PH has been getting from entirely unbiased media.

May as well make a "real" follow up post.

There are no "unbiased medias". Take here, for example. Generally, an opinion on this forum can probably be deemed biased towards liking Zelda, because this is a Zelda-themed forum. Similarly, there are no "unbiased medias". Any way you try and twist it, they have to keep their jobs. Obviously, rating any popular game low would get a lot of retaliation.Say somebody doesn't like Halo 3... obviously, their review will be discarded in favor of someone whose is positive. Unfortunately, on the internet, you're going to get all opinions... mine is simply that I don't like the game enough to continue playing it. It's that bad in my eyes.

How many games have you didn't like enough to finish? If the answer is at least 1, then you are being hypocritical.

[Masamune]

But at least we can count on random people on Youtube to not be biased! Awesome!

Incidentally, I would agree about magazine reviews, but large online media sites are a bit more even-handed. Even enough that sites like Gamestop will occasionally cause the occasional Zelda riot by rating games outside what is to be expected (though still giving the games high rating all the same). You can argue about the flaw in the 7-10 scoring system for most games, but to be fair... I blame the education system for that. We're trained that anything from 1-7 is a failure.

[spunky-monkey]

Personally I think your standards are rather high, but that might be because my standards are rather low. That bit about Phantom Ganon sounds a little pedantic to me since the games are in my eyes not following a fixed interpretation or storyline. Sure they can be linked together but clearly the one game takes precedence over complimenting another that came before it. I see it as the designers throw whatever they want into the one game and if it happens to 'agree' with a previous Zelda then great, if it contradicts then they don't care.

But you're entitled to want them to want to care. That's probably how I feeled around the MM era. I was superficial enough to be a Celda basher and TWW was the game that made me change my Zelda perspective. I started to care more about the game and less about the story, specifically how well the story fitted into the overall continuity. Having worried about the TWW design before then enjoying the game after, I realised it wasn't my expectations of the game that made me a Celda basher, but my desire for it to fit into a storyline and general worry about the direction of the series. This happened again here with PH, not because of it's design, but because of my dislike with the previous handheld Zelda.

I only dislike two Zeldas, FSA and TMC. But I dislike them for specific reasons (the level-based system in FSA, and kinstones in TMC), apart from those niggles I liked everything else. Those two faults though were big enough to distract me from the rest of the games. So because of these two games coming out in the Anouma era, I was worried about the series in terms of quality, not story. TP was good and I had a blast with all the dungeons and bosses, it was lacking in the overworld department but not enough to distract me.

So, whilst you shouldn't necessarily lower your standards, you have to realise that the series can go on without you and will take into account newer gamers over older gamers more often than not. We can be thankful that Zelda games are becoming more and more diverse and trying new things because it shows the attention and care that Nintendo has with it. The story may remain the same, but the game itself will more than likely feel different to a previous one. The series would become stale if they simply re-did the great games of the past. Those games are exactly that - in the past. They were awesome, but they've come and gone. It's foolish to expect an identically awesome future Zelda game. Absolutely one will come along that I detest, but I'm now of the mindset that the next one after it probably won't suck as much.

What you say is true, though I share lord-of-shadow's view that Eiji was prematurely brought into direct Zelda and often desperately want Nintendo to push Zelda back toward its origins/roots and less towards that of a gamplay innovation experiment; I'm increasingly frantic over these spin-off titles appearing. Another problem is the earlier games in the franchise basically established my 'high standards' because I grew up with them, they inspired me to be as creative and imaginative as possible, and they continue to impress today as a landmark in game-design, since then however I feel like we're getting a cheapened 'Jar Jar Binks version' of a well-known series. I probably won't abandon playing or reading up on Zelda games, at least not yet, I'm still hopeful Eiji either gets more experience or forcibly hands the reins over to another ambitious designer. I've clinged onto the community after Wind Waker which was next to those CDi games was arguably the fanbase's darkest hour. As James Bond said "shaken, not stirred".

It's interesting you dislike TMC, and worth noting that I found nothing seriously wrong with Minish Cap, in fact next to Oracles this installment is one of my personal favorites (obviously way behind Link's Awakening but still quality nonetheless). If TWW had the same story, synopsis and setting as Minish Cap did I would be as pleased as pie (screw the cel-shaded graphics for one minute), that little GameBoy Advance cart was personally in my view, a wonderfully atmospheric outing; true, it possessed several glaring faults with a small crowded over-world and matching undesirable Kinstones for example; there also could have been much more Minish interactions but these shortcomings are forgivable when leading up to the game's final climax against Vaati. He felt like a dangerous adversary about to snuff the life-force out of Zelda to become a god; much unlike that bastardization of Ganon from Wind Waker who was old, fat and somewhat senile. Now the Ganondorf I knew from Ocarina was a menace: a genuinely evil man who was a threat to the peace of Hyrule and supremely self-centered. In fact Shigeru explained his character symbolizes the greed of man as "the root of all evil" rather than money within this fictional world. Thankfully they did get his character about right for TP.

I understand your point but thing is, if these new Zelda games break from tradition and continue to lack association then, what is the point of us playing them? Everything you do is inconsequential, there's no build-up and for each new installment you need to forget everything that's previously transpired. We may as well just skip right past all that text and cut-scenes. I can't emphasis enough Zelda's storyline not only makes the game enjoyable but gives it structure and progress i.e. beginning, middle and end.

Can you imagine how depressing and utterly pointless FIFA World Cup would be if no one kept score?

[Masamune]

Ricky. Once you admitted to liking Minish Cap and Oracles, everything made sense. Ever. Even stuff irrelevant to his conversation.

I think it was correctly assessed when it was said you were playing the wrong series.

[Veteran]

I understand your point but thing is, if these new Zelda games break from tradition and continue to lack association then, what is the point of us playing them? Everything you do is inconsequential, there's no build-up and for each new installment you need to forget everything that's previously transpired. We may as well just skip right past all that text and cut-scenes. I can't emphasis enough Zelda's storyline not only makes the game enjoyable but gives it structure and progress i.e. beginning, middle and end.

Can you imagine how depressing and utterly pointless FIFA World Cup would be if no one kept score?

Hmmm, I'm not sure I understand that. I look at the beginning, middle and end of each game seperately, not all of them together. When playing a Zelda game I don't feel it necessary to remind myself of everything that came before it (I do do that, but I know I don't need to). I'd say it's a requirement to have played TWW before PH, but that's because the game is a true sequel. I don't think I'd need to play OoT before playing TP.

[ShadyUltima]

Nobody said that Phantom Ganon can't be improved and reused.

Personally this I agree with the Phantom Ganon in TWW and PH look different from the OoT one, and I know that Ganondorf looks different as well, but Phantom Ganon has no similarities. OoT is an image of Ganon with a weird face, TWW is a big black shadow creature. I think they're completely seperate Phantom Ganons, just have the same name.

I think it was MM, whose dungeons I can neither remember their respective names nor their tunes. Well, Stone Tower Temple aside, the other three, if I recall correctly, has very atmospheric music (i.e.: chanting, etc.) Though perhaps it's been so long I simply do not rememeber. Correct me if I am falsely besmirching MM.

MM tended to use the exact same music as OoT for most of it, like Clock Town and Termina field, which was fine, Hyrule field's theme is my favourite video game song of all time.


To be honest, the one thing I agreed with him the most on though, was the thing about yelling at the top of your lungs. I play my hand helds when I'm in bed, or my parents are driving when we're going somewhere, and if I yell then, I either get yelled at back, or I wake everyone up and get yelled at. So, I have stopped playing the game when you need to get the crane because I can't yell loud enough to get it.

The sailing is also annoying, especially when you try to jump, and the goddamn jump button on the screen takes like a minute to respond, so you've already hit what you needed to jump... and also, I hate the drawing of your path, because when you're chasing a moving object, like Beedle or 'Adventurer's ship' you have to change your path a hundred times... and that irritated me.

So far, from the games I've seen, Eiji is going to ruin Zelda. The best Zeldas in my opinion were on the N64, or prior to that, although I'm not as much a fan of them. I don't like TWW, OOS/A(I haven't played Ages) was decent, but not great, The four swords games I don't really like (I don't have 4 friends!) TP didn't have enough things to do, it felt wayy too linear, and PH just gets repetitive, and has some dumb ideas.

I'm not sure what Eiji's first game was, but it wasn't good unless it was on the 64.

Unless he worked on TMC, which I actually really like.

...am I the only one who sees and understands that side-quests are NOT essential, and that's why they're called SIDE quests?! They're a bonus to the player, and if you want to play a game of side quests and mini-games, then go play Mario Party or Wario-Ware. The Main Adventure is in-tact and it's GREAT, and that's what's important.

Actually, Zelda has ALWAYS been heavily based on the side quests. If you didn't do sidequests in any games, you'd end up with maybe 8 hearts at the end? And maybe one bottle and so on. The side quests are not the MOST important thing, but they're EXTREMELY important in the Zelda series.

I understand your point but thing is, if these new Zelda games break from tradition and continue to lack association then, what is the point of us playing them? Everything you do is inconsequential, there's no build-up and for each new installment you need to forget everything that's previously transpired. We may as well just skip right past all that text and cut-scenes.

Well, Zelda could be like Final Fantasy... ewwww