193 replies to this topic

[Wolf O'Donnell]

What the Hell? How did the this thread deteriorate into one of these debates?

It almost always does. It's a fact of life.

However, to not derail this topic, I am going to argue against AvengerButton's statements in a new topic.

I don't know when the next time it'll be able post here at LA but let me just add a couple of things. As far as Genesis goes, a day means day. To say it means otherwise would go against the text original meaning, metaphorical or otherwise. Quite frankly you'd be better off just dismissing the whole Creation Myth entirely than to to totally twist what the Bible actually says just because it doesn't make sense to you. Going with that interpretations wouldn't make sense anyways because you'd still run into problem of the Earth existing for thousands and thousands of years before there ever was a sun or any stars for that matter. That makes less sense than everything being created in 7 days.

Especially when the evidence shows that the Sun was formed first.

God can't be evil. Evil doesn't exist where God is concerned. That's human logic used on a supernatural being and that is never good.

Oh, really?

Isaiah 45:6-7 (KJV)
"6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. "

Edited by Wolf_ODonnell, 21 May 2007 - 05:11 AM.

[SOAP]

I of course believe God is beyond good and evil, which are mostly human terms anyways and therefore can't be ascribed to an omnipotent God since he's well, not a human. God does things that we perceive as good and some things we perceive as evil. Whatever he does, he does everything for a reason, regardless if it's good or evil. His actions have a much grander design than mere arbitrary terms. You can't hold God accountable any more than your dog can hold you accountable for spading him which he probably thinks is pretty damn evil of you.

As far as God is concerned, good and evil, light and dark, these things don't matter to him. What matters is perfect obedience. Sinning simply disobeying God's law. It has little do with evil. Most sins aren't particularly evil anyways. Satan didn't get kicked out of Heaven because he was evil. He got kicked out because he was disobedient and had the balls the try to usurp God's throne. He was plenty evil long before that.

On the other hand, God understands it's not possible for us to be obedient so he sent Christ to die for us and pay the debt of pour sins so we can have direct commune with him. If we so chose. If not we die with whatever sins we accumulated in our life.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Which is why I suppose the New International Version of the Bible doesn't use the word evil in that passage at all. However, in my experience, American fundamentalists think the King James Version is the best and most true version.

[SOAP]

Technically, truest version would be the original Greek and Hebrew texts but good luck with that one. I don't care for having preference over one version or the other. I don't believe the KJB to any truer than any other Bible that has been translated into English because whenever you translate something from it's original text, you'll have to laeve some stuff up to interpretation. And naturally different people inteterpret things differently. As long as the basic message is the same, I don't care. If different versions contradict, then ultimately you'd have to refer back to the original Hewbrew and Greek.

I don't get what point you're trying to make with that passage though. Well, I kinda do but really so what? God created evil. He created good too. I actually went and read that chapter to see the passage in it's context and really all God is saying is that he craeted everythjing, the good and the bad and there is nothing else beside him that we should look to. There is no other god or goddess. No evil version of him, nor is he an evil version of some other god. If anything you can take that passage to mean that he takes full responsibility for bad that happen in the world, not just the good. That takes a very big man, er God, to admit that, wouldn't you think.

However, I'd understand if taht's not at all what you're getting at.

Edited by SOAP, 21 May 2007 - 08:24 AM.

[Arturo]

Careful Arturo, stepping quite close to the line there. No insulting his beliefs like that. Getting kinda personal.

Sorry, but I don't think I was insulting his beliefs. I didn't just say "heresy", but show why I believe Creationism is a heresy. The funny thing is, he hasn't even tried to prove me wrong.

And maybe the Iraq thing was too harsh, but I say that without the slightest bit of hate. I don't have absolutely anything personal against Button. I am just against onsider a heresy. I have my reasons to consider that, and Ididn't insult him, but show him why I consider his beliefs to be heretical. But heretical isn't an offensive term, it's just a way of describing a belief that goes against the beliefs of a religion, even if it pretends to be a belief of that religion.

I am sorry if I dound harsh, but show me where exactly I insulted his beliefs. Because "heretic" is not an insult.

Which by Christian standards isn't something you're supposed to do.

Okay, I will reword it. I just speak seeing the opinions you claim to have. I don't know your opinions, but know what your opinions claim to be.

Speaking by seeing what I am told is not "judging" in the way Jesus says it's wring. Because I haven't spoken about you, but about what you claim to believe.

I don't think humans could understand any natural process. Hence when scientists claim they know what they are talking about, maybe they don't.

If we didn't know how the natural process work, why can we use them in the ways we want to? If we did not know anything about natural processes, you woukdn't be posting here.

I already know that it's scientifically correct, but I don't believe in science.

A few posts ago you said that it wasn't scientifically correct:

Evolution is a scientifical fact, not a mere hypothesis.

Oh dear. Not the last time I checked. You see, evolution relies on mutations in the cells of the body. And according to most science texts I've read, mutations cause information in the genes to be lost.

At least the time I have wasted in writing my posts has been fairly useful. You now know it's a scientifical fact.

Even if you don't believe in science.

He didn't.

If he had wanted us to be perfect, he wouldn't have given us free will. But he gave us free will, because free will is good, or that is what I suppose. Hence, Adam and Eve's sin. And the rest of them. But he gave us free will, and that might be because if there is no free will, there can be no morals (Kant).

God is probably the only one who is logical. Humans aren't. Human logic and God do not go together.

We have been created to resemble him. If he has logic, we have as well. Only that his is superior. And since we have logic, and he does as well, they must go together, because there is only one logic. The logos. God.

And this isn't science. It's religion. It's in the Bible.

Whatever the reason, killing is bad. I'm just saying that God can do whatever he wants and his actions are justified by his righteousness.

God can do whatever he wants. But the God of Genesis sees that its creation is good. Therefore, using the brain, one of God's creations cannot be bad.

But according to you, using the brain is bad (science is bad and goes against faith), and the brain was a creation by God. And God considers intelligence to be good, but intelligence sends the person to Hell, which is bad by definition. Therefore, according to you, what God considers to be good sens the person that has it to Hell.

And that is a heretical thought.

You're really starting to go overboard.

Show me where I insulted you, instead of reasoning and backing my statements.

If anyone's influencing evolutionary thought it's the devil himself.

Last I checked, it was God who created our brain, not the devil. And science is using the brain. Which is a God's instrument.

God created sciences. God created evolution.

God created everything we can see.

See? I am Creationist.

Now who's the one generalizing?

How is that a generalization?

The Bible is a guide to salvation, anything that doesn't concern salvation is irrelevant. Unless you want to accept that Pi is 3, like the Book of the King says.

Edited by Arturo, 21 May 2007 - 08:33 AM.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

All I was saying is that how can evil not exist where God is concerned, if he admits to creating it? How can somebody create evil and not have some evil attribute to them? By accident? But would an omniscient God really make a mistake?

[Arturo]

I don't think God created evil. It's just a consequence of free will. And free will is necessary for good to exist.

That is why I believe not all the Bible is equally valid.

BTW, since when are you mod here Goose? I mean, I just noticed today! When did that happen? Am I the only one who never hears the news! *feels isolated*

Anyway, congrats

Edited by Arturo, 21 May 2007 - 12:07 PM.

[Captain Jack Sparrow]

Since evil seems to be a big thing in this topic, I have a few things to say. If there was no evil, what would it be like? Less evil is plausible, but none? Everyone mortal has evil inside them. Without evilness we wouldn't be who we are. Good and evil are a balance, too much evil and we are thrown into chaos. Without evil, there would be no drive, nothing to strive against. There is evil in everything. Evil doesn't have to be massive, like Darth Vader or something. Evil can be a single wisp of thought.

Without evil there would be no fun. No more even remotely violent video games. No more horsing around with friends, you might hurt someone. We'd all be vegetarian as well, or probably vegan. No more of anything that might cause any other being any harm, or has the notion or implication that another being is harmed. None.

Edited by Captain Jack Sparrow, 21 May 2007 - 09:08 AM.

[SOAP]

All I was saying is that how can evil not exist where God is concerned, if he admits to creating it? How can somebody create evil and not have some evil attribute to them? By accident? But would an omniscient God really make a mistake?

It does exists. He did create it. And maybe he is just as evil as he is good. Or rather, to his he seems evil from our prespective. Humans generally define evil as things that hurt them or other living things. God does things that hurt us, yes. He makes no attempts to cover this up or cast blame elsewhere. Why does he do it? Because it's neccessary. Suffering, destruction, chaos are all natural parts of this world and the system doesn't work without them. Or maybe God is just bipolar. So am I. I guess that's why God's dual nature makes perfect sense to me. Then again, I have a bit of Discordian slant to my Christian faith.

[TempleMaster]

No, God is not evil, he is love. That is all the Bible says is that we are love and the reason we suffer or are in distress as we are sometimes is because it is in hard times that we grow and become more mature. A scientific study has been done on Bee's in space. with no gravity, they didn't have to fly and thus they did nothing as far as work goes. However, when they did that, just two days later all of the Bees were dead. The reason for this was that Bees can't go without using their wings. They weren't made like that and neither were we made to go without some trouble. It's in hard times that we grow.

[Diamond]

I already know that it's scientifically correct, but I don't believe in science.

I've been following this topic for a while and I got very impressed. I've never been such a religious blindness as yours.


Do you know what science is based in?
Science is completely based in senses. Are you capable of negect them?

If you drop a glass, it breaks, (could be casuality), if you drop another, it breaks too (could be coincidence) at the 100th time you drop a glass you maybe realise that it always breaks! And you will have made a SCIENTIFICAL theory that you´ll extend it to the rest of the objects. This is the reason why you don't jump through a three-floor window. You made this association when you where just a little boy: if things fall down, they breaks.
this is SCIENCE.
All the scientifical theories in the world derives of this principle.


do you dare to neglect this? are you capable to neglect your senses?

Because if you say that, all that your parents or the priest have told you about a supposed god can be false. If you rennied of what you see, hear or think, why do you watch to both sides of the street before cross?

You BELIEVE in the relation CAUSE-EFFECT. If not, you wouldn't be sure that if you pressed the key "x" the screen would show "x". Science is based in the same relation.

Uh! I've got to sleep but tomorrow I'll show you what a mutation is. Don't say again that it's a loss of information because I had the examen yesterday and it was about mutations. If you don't know something, be quiet, don't say this stupid things. And less try to pretend that are a scientifical true as you have tried

Bye

[Steel Samurai]

If you drop a glass, it breaks, (could be casuality), if you drop another, it breaks too (could be coincidence) at the 100th time you drop a glass you maybe realise that it always breaks! And you will have made a SCIENTIFICAL theory that you´ll extend it to the rest of the objects. This is the reason why you don't jump through a three-floor window. You made this association when you where just a little boy: if things fall down, they breaks.
this is SCIENCE.

The glass won't break if you drop it on a pillow. Or if it's made of bulletproof material. Or if you drop it from 2 inches.

Also, I think the evolution debate is pretty much finished in this thread. You might want to check the actual evolution thread.

[Diamond]

The glass won't break if you drop it on a pillow. Or if it's made of bulletproof material. Or if you drop it from 2 inches.

I thought it was obvious that I mean at the same conditions. (same material, height,...)

[arunma]

OK, I'm calling a stop to the Catholic/Protestant thing. This thread is about hell. Let's get back on topic please, because I really don't want to have to close this thread.

Incidentally, if any of you want to have a debate on Catholicism and Protestantism, it would be fine with me to start a new thread. The only provision is that discussions here have to be civil.