193 replies to this topic

[SOAP]

To branch off the oh so popular "Banana" thread, I want to discuss hell in more depth, more particularily what everyone's beliefs are about hell . Is it a state of being, an actual place, a little of both? Also how the concept of hell differs in different religions.

[wisp]

Well, as I've said before... I'm still sorting out my actual beliefs.. but if there is a 'hell' of some sort, I think it's not so much a literal place of fire and brimstone...

I think the afterlife, if there is one, is probably just what one makes of it. People who had committed horrible atrocities in life that they could not forgive themselves for would, by their horrible guilt, create an afterlife that would be lonely and terrible. Like a personal hell. It sounds rather like that Robin Williams movie, "What Dreams May Come..." but it still seems to be the explanation that resounds with me.

[TempleMaster]

I'm a Christian as I've said and my beliefs go according the Bible. I'm not here to start an arguement again though honestly that was neat, but opinion from me. The Bible says that there will be at the end of time a lake of fire. That means that in the end of time, there will be a lake of fire or Hell as everyone calls it. When someone dies, there is reason to believe that people don't go to the lake of fire right away, but a place of misery and torture until the end of time when the enemy and his minions are forced into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is what the Bible calls Hell and what I myself think is Hell. A place where a soul will burn for all eternity.

[TheAvengerLever]

I believe in what little the Bible tells me about Hell.

[SOAP]

Well, as I've said before... I'm still sorting out my actual beliefs.. but if there is a 'hell' of some sort, I think it's not so much a literal place of fire and brimstone...

I think the afterlife, if there is one, is probably just what one makes of it. People who had committed horrible atrocities in life that they could not forgive themselves for would, by their horrible guilt, create an afterlife that would be lonely and terrible. Like a personal hell. It sounds rather like that Robin Williams movie, "What Dreams May Come..." but it still seems to be the explanation that resounds with me.

I LOVE that movie. Actually I have very simmilar beliefs. Heaven and hell are whatever each individual soul mkaes of it. Whatever a person fears the most or causes them the most pain, that's their hell times a thousand. Like a person who fears snakes might end in a room filled with snakes up to their neck with no hope to get out. The fiery hell of Christianity is a fairly new concept, but it works because it something that a good majority of people fear. Hell is supposed something you would never want to be. To put hell to it's most basic description possible, it's place without God. God is supposed to be all the love in the world so if you were to imagine a world without even the faintist hint of love, that'd be Hell. So it doesn't matter if it's hot or cold or just really really dark.

I'm still on the fence but I kinda believe in a purgatory too.

[TempleMaster]

I'm not going to push my luck again. That went crazy last time in the not being able to sleep trend. I've stated my opinion, but I just see Hell as the lake of fire and brimstone. I can't really see it any other way really.

[SOAP]

Don't worry so much, TM. We have a very good staff of mods that keeps things from getting too crazy.

[Arturo]

I believe more or less what my Church does. The Catholic Church says that neither heaven nor hell are places but states. The Heaven would be the state of permanent communion with God, while Hell would be the opposite. No fire or clouds. I don't believe in the End of times, either. Everything said in Revelations is just allegorical. But its canonicity is also doubtable.

I know that none of us is worthy of being in communion with the Father, teh Son and the Holy Spirit BUT, since is God is love in the purest state (1st Letter of John: 4,8), I think he will save everyone, because he sent the servant of the Lord to die for our sins. All of them.

[Keen]

I think the afterlife, if there is one, is probably just what one makes of it. People who had committed horrible atrocities in life that they could not forgive themselves for would, by their horrible guilt, create an afterlife that would be lonely and terrible. Like a personal hell. It sounds rather like that Robin Williams movie, "What Dreams May Come..." but it still seems to be the explanation that resounds with me.

My feelings exactly. Also, that movie happens to be based on a very good book. I haven't seen the movie, but I read the book.

[Fyxe]

I think Hell is a hilariously rediculous concept that could only exist in fairy tales and is only there to scare the crap out of people who don't follow the supreme doctrine of the church (and even those that do).

Then again, I think a similar thing about Heaven.

[Tekky]

All I can say on the matter is that the journey to hell, in my opinion anyway, will depart from, and arrive at Gatwick South Terminal...

As for the concept of Hell itself... I dont really know, I've kind of gone off the whole religion thing. It's quite a philosophical thing too, and philosophy isnt my strong point

[Khallos]

People who had committed horrible atrocities in life that they could not forgive themselves for would, by their horrible guilt, create an afterlife that would be lonely and terrible. Like a personal hell. It sounds rather like that Robin Williams movie, "What Dreams May Come..." but it still seems to be the explanation that resounds with me.

The only problem that I can think with something like that is that perhaps mass murderers who had died and believed they were doing God's work or people who considered that they never did anything wrong in their life, could spend eternity on a pleasure boat doing whatever. Also whether or not everyone has their own personal afterlife might have some problems. Would you be prepared to spend forever in paradise by yourself only really talking to images not real souls? Nothing would ever be wrong, we yearn for a dystopian society in the West (the amount of disaster movies or media that at least starts out negative with little hope), so would people actually enjoy eternal sunshine, no excitement, no risks, no chance of losing. I mean would you be willing to spend eternity with the soul of the love of your life, but in Hell? With all the excitement endless torture can offer.

Then again a literal huge realm of fire would be odd, it'd be ever expanding, as would Heaven (obviously Heaven at a slower rate) and there would be most likely a larger population of souls then demons or whatever torturing them, I see potential problems of trying to restrain some of the nastiest bastards of history who cannot die. Then again that would be a literal taking of Classical Hell and as no one has seemingly gone to Hell and gone back, not including certain 13th century Italians, we can only rely on hearsay and people making stuff up.

Of course Hell may not exist, or it may be reserved for the greatest of sinners. If there is a God, there technically should be Hell; but maybe he's scrapped it, regarding it as unnessecary place of brutality and torture, far better to try and change and help those souls that have strayed from the path than punish them.

[arunma]

I believe in what little the Bible tells me about Hell.

My thoughts exactly. The Bible doesn't say much about heaven or hell. It says quite a bit, on the other hand, about how to go to those two places (basically it depends on what you believe about Jesus).

Is hell a physical place? I don't know, and I don't think it really matters. We know that hell is really, really bad. I don't think the soul being tormented in hell will be comforted very much by the statement that it's a state of being rather than a physical place.

Don't worry so much, TM. We have a very good staff of mods that keeps things from getting too crazy.

Score one for me!

Seriously though, as a mod I wouldn't say I'm unreasonable at all. About the most evil mod action I've ever done was the time I accidentally pressed the edit button instead of the quote button, and ended up replacing someone else's very long post with my own. As far as Contro conversations go, I err on the side of free speech and tend not to censor anything. As long as you guys don't personally insult each other, you can say whatever is on your mind.

[Keen]

The only problem that I can think with something like that is that perhaps mass murderers who had died and believed they were doing God's work or people who considered that they never did anything wrong in their life, could spend eternity on a pleasure boat doing whatever.

So? You're assuming there's something wrong with that.

Also whether or not everyone has their own personal afterlife might have some problems. Would you be prepared to spend forever in paradise by yourself only really talking to images not real souls?

How do you even know for certain that there are other souls? Anyway, no one ever said you couldn't choose for your afterlife to cross paths with another.

Nothing would ever be wrong, we yearn for a dystopian society in the West (the amount of disaster movies or media that at least starts out negative with little hope), so would people actually enjoy eternal sunshine, no excitement, no risks, no chance of losing.

If nothing were ever wrong, you couldn't have too much goodness, because you'd get as much suffering as you want. Anyway, this seems to be a confusion wherein there is the assumption that some things are inherently good. I'll tell you, sunshine is not fun for some people, and it seriously injures others. Since pleasure is subjective, as one's mood changes, so would what one seeks, leading one to eternal unrest, if they continue seeking.

[TempleMaster]

I'm a strong believer that there is a Hell and if we aren't ready to go when our time comes, that is where we will end up. I figure it being the lake of fire in which the Bible mentions, but it's up to you what you would think Hell truely is. I'm not going to force anyone to believe in such a place, but my opinion is set in stone.

[Khallos]

So? You're assuming there's something wrong with that.

Well in my books there is. Of course if God decides that person killed many a heretic, then why not send the bloodthirsty maniac to Heaven?

How do you even know for certain that there are other souls? Anyway, no one ever said you couldn't choose for your afterlife to cross paths with another.

Well, what happens your idea of Heaven didn't involve one person, because let's say you hated them (of course no one who still hates should be allowed in Heaven, as hating is a naughty thing). However the person you hate loves you deeply. One person's Heaven is going to be ruined in the individual heavens system. This is all guessing and speculation of course, I cannot claim to be an expert on heaven due to not being dead for one.

If nothing were ever wrong, you couldn't have too much goodness, because you'd get as much suffering as you want. Anyway, this seems to be a confusion wherein there is the assumption that some things are inherently good. I'll tell you, sunshine is not fun for some people, and it seriously injures others. Since pleasure is subjective, as one's mood changes, so would what one seeks, leading one to eternal unrest, if they continue seeking.

OK, for all the albinos out there, you can also have an eternity of eternal twilight. Now everyone's happy. Of course as you have no corpreal form Sunshine cannot injure nor blind you so it's meaningless. And if there was one unified heaven, they'd have to be certain laws applied. Of course people who enjoy pain and suffering should not be in heaven, so it removes anyone who has the dream of endless torture. Even if people had personal heavens, it's unlikely they'd not follow some laws or people could live in an endless battle. Not exactly Christian.

To be honest reincarnation does seem kind of practical in the whole after-life thing. I mean it's going to start to get very boring soon enough in the perfect world for the rest of time.

[Keen]

Well in my books there is. Of course if God decides that person killed many a heretic, then why not send the bloodthirsty maniac to Heaven?

Well, Christians are supposed to love everybody, I thought, but I'm no expert. Anyway, I'm not going to judge someone because they thought it was right to kill a bunch of people. I'd still have that murderer executed to protect society, but I can't say the person deserves to suffer.

Well, what happens your idea of Heaven didn't involve one person, because let's say you hated them (of course no one who still hates should be allowed in Heaven, as hating is a naughty thing). However the person you hate loves you deeply. One person's Heaven is going to be ruined in the individual heavens system. This is all guessing and speculation of course, I cannot claim to be an expert on heaven due to not being dead for one.

It's a tortured soul who's burdened by unrequited love. You can't exactly stalk the dead, but you can't hide from them either. My guess is that the tortured soul would either be too lost to know what they were doing, or they'd be clear-minded enough to let that love go. But it's only a guess.

OK, for all the albinos out there, you can also have an eternity of eternal twilight. Now everyone's happy. Of course as you have no corpreal form Sunshine cannot injure nor blind you so it's meaningless. And if there was one unified heaven, they'd have to be certain laws applied. Of course people who enjoy pain and suffering should not be in heaven, so it removes anyone who has the dream of endless torture. Even if people had personal heavens, it's unlikely they'd not follow some laws or people could live in an endless battle. Not exactly Christian.

Well, I'm no Christian. Anyway, the afterlife sunlight probably wouldn't be able to harm the former albino people, but it was more of an example of the way something can be both good and evil at the same time.

To be honest reincarnation does seem kind of practical in the whole after-life thing. I mean it's going to start to get very boring soon enough in the perfect world for the rest of time.

Well, I never said I believed that someone would have to stay dead. Reincarnation is too fun to reject, in my view. But the perfect world isn't so perfect when it gets boring, is it? So either it isn't perfect, or it doesn't get boring. I'd bet on both, actually. If I bet, that is.

Edited by Lord of Drek, 04 May 2007 - 05:01 PM.

[wisp]

Reincarnation seems like it would be fun, but only if the person wanted to be reincarnated... I'd hate to die, finally feeling like I could relax for eternity, and then be told I had to come do the mortal thing again. XP

[TempleMaster]

Reincarnation? How could anyone possibly believe in that? I find that even unconsiderable and makes about as much sense as trying to eat metal as a source of food. I fail to see how that is is something anyone could consider personally.

[Selena]

Granted, many people would probably feel the same way about your own beliefs. Different strokes for different folks, to borrow a phrase Wisp over there uses often enough. I personally like the idea. Fresh take on life, never forced to leave the mortal realm behind, always able to explore the universe and make the most of the gift that is life. Heaven and Hell scare me equally. Hell for the eternal torture and Heaven for the eternal boredom of perfection.

[SOAP]

There's one guy who actually eats metal and plastic for living.

[Khallos]

Same reason you believe in God, and it perhaps works better on the "eveything is recycled" scale, as well Hell must be overflowing with souls, and Heaven can't be much better. Still, it's rare anyone ever forces reincarnation on you; I guess if you believe in it there's no point trying to convert someone to your way, they'll be reincarnated anyway. Nature recycles everything, there is no end to the universe it continues on for ever and ever, if it ever gets destroyed most likely it won't be the end, the constant recycling of the bits of star that make our bodies and everything around us is reincarnation on a purely scientific basis. And why can't souls be reycled into a new vessel every time? Of course this relies on the Big Bang happening and this computer being real and I'm not some alien in a coma having a dream of a race long destroyed and so on and so forth.

Besides we eat metal as food all the time, if we didn't we'd suffer from malnutrition and probably die (OK, in small amounts) .

Well, Christians are supposed to love everybody, I thought, but I'm no expert.

Christians, as well as any other member of a faith are supposed to do many things. Still they often don't, and I'm talking about murderers who are Heros of Christianity, people fighting and killing those of another obviously false God. Is there no way more glorious to die? To be honest it's pretty hard to debate the afterlife, as there is minimal evidence for it, still I can understand your points, though as I said, in it's an impossible argument. And we've both applied our morals and principles to a God who is naturally beyond comprehension, so there's no point arguing there.

In all honesty a perfect system would be where everyone's soul went to their own paradise and they could visit other people's too. Still I'd like to believe in that being possible, but compared to reincarnation it seems too messy.

[TempleMaster]

I believe in Reincarnation like some of the members believe that God DOESN'T exsist. The idea is rediculous and I'd like to see the proof that it does exsist. Can you provide me with evidence that reincarnation is real?

[Selena]

No. No one can prove anything spiritual, at least at present. Reincarnation, a deity, spiritual resurrection - none of this can be proven to be real and all of it is something you have to have faith in. So no. No one can give you proof. Just as you can't give solid proof in your own belief system. Sorry.

[TempleMaster]

Then in the same token, can you prove that God doesn't exsist if you have no proof or something can't be shown because it is spiritual? You claiming reincarnation is the same as me claiming that God is real and out there. How could you possibly believe in reincarnation and not believe in God?

[Arturo]

Because different people believe different things. Beliefs are, by definition, irrational.

[TempleMaster]

So your telling me that there is no Heaven or Hell meaning no spiritual places, but there is reincarnation? How does that make sense? That is a spiritual principal you know, one of which I'm strongly against.

[Arturo]

How do Heaven and Hell make sense at all?

I don't say they are false. They are just as illogical as believing in little green and talking Mars aliens.

But logical=/=True

But if faith was logical, it would have no merit.

Edited by Arturo, 04 May 2007 - 06:25 PM.

[TempleMaster]

Reincarnation in my eyes is illogical as well. I can't see how that is possible that once we die, we become something or someone else?

Can you see the similaritites in trying to prove God and that reincarnation are real? I don't believe that after we die, we get a second chance. We get just one chance on this earth and then that is it. We are either going to Heaven for leading a good life, or Hell for leading a bad life. This seems like middle ground and I just can't see it any other way really. That seems illogical.

[Selena]

Then in the same token, can you prove that God doesn't exsist if you have no proof or something can't be shown because it is spiritual? You claiming reincarnation is the same as me claiming that God is real and out there. How could you possibly believe in reincarnation and not believe in God?

I never said I didn't believe in a deity, or at least some form of higher power. I'm an agnostic/my-own-thing, not an atheist. I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian god, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in anything. Nor did I ever say that reincarnation actually exists. I said it's what I like to believe in. Of course it will sound illogical to you. You believe in something entirely different. Yours is centered around the afterlife. The one big afterlife. I, again, don't believe in that. Which is the beauty of people having their own mental processes and their own opinions when it comes to the afterlife and the spiritual realm. Judaism has no hell. Other major religions also have their own take on it. Reincarnation is a popular belief as well, but mainly in the east.

By saying that nothing spiritual can be proved, that simply means that there's no proof either way. That does not mean I'm using a lack of evidence to say god doesn't exist in any way, shape or form. You're jumping to a conclusion there, I'm afraid. A lack of evidence simply means we don't know for certain what's out there either way.

So again, I'm not saying reincarnation exists and that god doesn't. If you don't believe in reincarnation, fine. If you're a Christian, it's going to sound odd and against everything you believe. But you have to accept that there are other belief systems out there in opposition to your own.