82 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

You mean theistic. A deistic religion would be one that believed God or gods didn't do anything more than what was needed to create the universe and then became wholly transcendant.

No, I mean deistic, as in including one or more deities.

ORLY?

Yes. Really. Continents will not be physically removed from the earth by tons of ocean water flooding over them. They will be buried by it.

[Person]

I do not doubt that a new society will be founded in the wake of the flood, but the world maps of FSA, ALttP, TMC, and FS show absolutely no signs of flooding, nor are there any legends of the flood. The continent of Hyrule was buried underneath tons of water, and would be drastically different when the waters receded. And I do beleive that all games in the "child" timeline where the flood did not happen take place in the same continent. The Humans/Hylians debate is semantics alone. The Hylia referred to in ALttP are the Hylians of OoT/TP, and the "humans" in TMC is a differentiation between "big people" and "little people" (Minish). Hylians are obviously still around, because the Royal Family is there, and they are apparently all Hylian.

I was referring to "Old Hyrule" in the sense that it is in the same geographical vicinity, not that the civilization is the same. LoZ society is obviously different from OoT society. And I do not believe that the chaotic atmosphere of LoZ and AoL necessarily reflect a post-flood atmosphere. Hyrule has been ravaged by civil war in the preceding years, as per the manual. All settlements in Southern Hyrule were apparently destroyed in the wars. The society moved to the northern continent to escape the wars and Ganon's invasion.

[MikePetersSucks]

No, I mean deistic, as in including one or more deities.

That's what Theism is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Yes. Really. Continents will not be physically removed from the earth by tons of ocean water flooding over them. They will be buried by it.

Doesn't nessessarily have to apply in the world of Zelda, especially with a flood that can drop several leagues of water of itself onto a kingdom without lowering the sea level of it's surface.

[LionHarted]

I do not doubt that a new society will be founded in the wake of the flood, but the world maps of FSA, ALttP, TMC, and FS show absolutely no signs of flooding, nor are there any legends of the flood.

1) Of all the Hyrule world maps, these are the only ones with swamps.
2) There is what appears to be the imprint of a giant octopus in ALttP's desert.
3) ALttP could not have referenced a flood, since it was made before the Great Flood of TWW had been envisioned. FS was being made simultaneously, and had no storyline connections. FSA does not reference any past events, besides a sealing of a tribe in a mirror, which may have been explored further in TP. TMC is the same. So, basically, all of the games you described were made before TWW, or reference no prior legends.

Hylians are obviously still around, because the Royal Family is there, and they are apparently all Hylian.

1) Royal family =/= Hylian
2) No one in any game outside of OoT and TP is called "Hylian."

That's what Theism is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

I have heard "deistic" (the adjective) used in contexts other than to describe "deism" (the belief system), perhaps incorrectly.

Edited by LionHarted, 31 May 2007 - 10:34 AM.

[Arturo]

2) No one in any game outside of OoT and TP is called "Hylian."

Let's show the quote of doom, then:

Oracle of Seasons:

That's just our guise. I can't say it too loud, but we're really
Hylian Knights.

[Person]

Hylian/Hyrulean are interchangeable in most situations, except for when Hylian refers to the race.

And how is the Royal Family not Hylian? Zelda and the King have pointed ears! If I'm not mistaken, that was the defining mark of a Hylian.

1) Of all the Hyrule world maps, these are the only ones with swamps.
2) There is what appears to be the imprint of a giant octopus in ALttP's desert.
3) ALttP could not have referenced a flood, since it was made before the Great Flood of TWW had been envisioned. FS was being made simultaneously, and had no storyline connections. FSA does not reference any past events, besides a sealing of a tribe in a mirror, which may have been explored further in TP. TMC is the same. So, basically, all of the games you described were made before TWW, or reference no prior legends.

1. The swamps are circumstantial. We have similar lowlands near Lake Hylia in OoT and TP. Lowlands near a river or lake can easily become flooded in time. No catastrophic flooding is needed.
2. An ancient carving. Similar ones are in OoT and FSA.
3. ALttP has very few geographical changes from OoT and TP. A Flood would have at least re-routed the river or changed Lake Hylia. Also, FSA explores prior legends involving Ganon, the Four Sword, and the Dark Mirror (not the Twilight Mirror). TMC explores the legend of the Light Force and the Hero of Men. So none of these games which reference prior legends reference a flood, and all of them have similar geography. They take place on the same continent. LoZ and AoL take place in a war-ravaged land, not a flood-ravaged land. Rereleases of these games (post-TWW) do not reference a flood or any kind of disaster at all, but they do reference wars.

TWW obviously ends the OoT Hyrule. A New Hyrule will eventually be founded, however.

[Duke Serkol]

And how is the Royal Family not Hylian? Zelda and the King have pointed ears! If I'm not mistaken, that was the defining mark of a Hylian.

Not really. ALttP the game that established the Hylians as a long gone race had all characters with pointed ears. And the same applies to the NES games which happen even later.
It's posible that true Hylians have longer ears and that the weight makes them extend horizontally rather than vertically (as the characters in ALttP) but take this with a grain of salt.

[Person]

Really? I was under the impression that the ALttP Hyrule was talking about the Hylian civilization being long gone, not the race. I would suppose that the Royal Family would be the last vestiges of the bloodline. I mean, Ganon used pointed ears as his main criterion for his search for Princess Zelda, and Zelda has had pointed ears in every game. I thought that Link and Zelda were always Hylian, even if the race was dying out, as in ALttP, LoZ, and AoL.

But the words "human" and "Hylian" have been used interchangeably. Hylian is a race of human, not a species as some would suppose.

[Duke Serkol]

Really? I was under the impression that the ALttP Hyrule was talking about the Hylian civilization being long gone, not the race.

I'm pretty sure the game and moreso the manual refer to the Hylia people, not just their civilization. But feel free to disagree.

Ganon used pointed ears as his main criterion for his search for Princess Zelda, and Zelda has had pointed ears in every game.

Are Zelda's (Tetra's?) ears much more pointy than other characters in TWW? I mean, certainly ears in TWW aren't as nearly pointy as in OoT, but I don't think anyone in the game has really rounded ears (that's something found in the people of Holodrum, Labrynna and Ordon and TP Kakariko. Everybody else in ALL games have pointy ears).
Could be wrong about TWW though, I'm not expert of that one game.

I thought that Link and Zelda were always Hylian, even if the race was dying out, as in ALttP, LoZ, and AoL.

They may have direct descendancy (from the royal family and the knights of Hyrule), but even so their bloodline could have gotten mixed up a bit with non-Hylians over the generations (hence the power of the Sages' bloodline waning)

But the words "human" and "Hylian" have been used interchangeably. Hylian is a race of human, not a species as some would suppose.

No argument there

Edited by Duke Serkol, 01 June 2007 - 09:29 AM.

[Arturo]

In TWW there are some characters with perfectly round ears. There is a normal-eared-family (the one of the pigs) at Outset, and I think Beedle has round ears as well

[Person]

Regardless of whether or not the Hylian race is prominent in ALttP, it takes place on the same continent as OoT and TP. There is no geographic evidence that suggests a post-flood environment.

Some fans who want to date a game post-TWW point to the unrest and chaos surrounding LoZ as evidence for a post-flood environment, but this is assuming connections that aren't there. The kingdom is in disarray from the various wars that have taken place, not a flood.

[Raien]

Given that many geographical changes cannot be explained with regards to the timeline, many people do not bother to include geography as strong canon. I mean, if the games were all identical in geography, there would be no difference in the locations and they would get boring for veteran players. With that in mind, the landscape shouldn't matter post-flood.

[Person]

Yes, Geography isn't very strong evidence, but the OoT, TP, FSA, ALttP, TMC, and LoZ maps have most of the same location, just switched around. A game set post-TWW would have drastically different geography. Sure Death Mountain and Hyrule Field would probably be there, the Lost Woods, Lake Hylia, and all of the towns would have been washed away.

[Chaltab]

Yes, Geography isn't very strong evidence, but the OoT, TP, FSA, ALttP, TMC, and LoZ maps have most of the same location, just switched around. A game set post-TWW would have drastically different geography. Sure Death Mountain and Hyrule Field would probably be there, the Lost Woods, Lake Hylia, and all of the towns would have been washed away.

I think if enough time passes then similar things could exist in both pre and post flood Hyrule. The Lost Woods could grow back, and Lake Hylia's constant migration makes a good case for it being different lakes with the same name. And the towns are also in different places. Compare OOT, FSA, and ALTTP incarnations of Kakariko Village.

[Person]

OoT Kakariko is TP's Hidden Village, and the Kakariko in FSA and ALttP is New Kakariko. This is explained in TP when one translates the Hylian signs in the Hidden Village. Also note that Kakariko in FSA and ALttP is in the same place, slightly west of Hyrule Castle.

[Chaltab]

OoT Kakariko is TP's Hidden Village, and the Kakariko in FSA and ALttP is New Kakariko. This is explained in TP when one translates the Hylian signs in the Hidden Village.

The Kakariko of OOT and the Hidden Village of TP can't be one in the same. The TP Hidden Village is north from Death Mountain , whereas the OOT and TP Kakariko's are both at Death Mountain's southern foot and directly west of the Graveyard. The "Old Kakariko" sign more likely means a village that predates the one found in Ocarina.

Also note that Kakariko in FSA and ALttP is in the same place, slightly west of Hyrule Castle.

Indeed. That works quite well for both our timelines, which put FSA and ALTTP in relatively close temporal proximity.

Edited by Chaltab, 01 June 2007 - 10:36 PM.

[LionHarted]

OoT's Kakariko was opened to common folk by Impa, and it is suggested that Sheikah once lived there.
TP's "old" Kakariko was a "hidden village" where the Sheikah lived until shortly before TP.

FSA and ALttP Kakariko are both flourishing towns in the west.
OoT/TP's Kakariko is abandoned by the end of TP, is nestled in the east, and is in a canyon at the foot of Death Mountain.

OoT Kakariko = TP Kakariko
OoT/TP Kakariko =/= Old Kakariko
OoT/TP Kakariko =/= FSA/ALttP Kakariko

[Person]

I know that Lake Hylia and the Lost Woods seem to move around for no apparent reason, but other places like the Desert and Death Mountain are in the same place in every game. West and Northeast (NW in TP Wii). Kokiri forest is also in the same general area, and a case can be made for Minish Woods being an offshoot of Kokiri Forest.

Now TMC's geograpy is a bit different, but only because it shows places that haven't been on the map. Mt. Crenel is the original home of the Gorons just west of Death Mountain, Veil Falls could be Zora's Domain or a lesser peak of Death Mountain, considering that Biggoron is on the peak. Castor Wilds could be the swamp from ALttP and FSA, and the Royal Valley is a Hylian Cemetary we haven't seen in any games. Hyrule Castle is probably the same one as OoT and TP, because it is located north of Hyrule Field and has a town. In most other eras, Hyrule Castle is a fortress, not a town.

[Duke Serkol]

the Royal Valley is a Hylian Cemetary we haven't seen in any games.

Or it could be the one in LoZ, complete of dungeon with the same music and lost (olol maze) woods before its entrance to the south.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 02 June 2007 - 11:39 AM.

[LionHarted]

In a post-TWW TMC, Mount Crenel could be the name given to the mountain on which the Gorons once lived, which is in fact Death Mountain and is later renamed Death Mountain. Same with Veil Falls/Zora's Domain. Castor may have been introduced at some point before/during/after TWW, and after OoT, but I agree that it really ought to be ALttP's swamp.

I find it interesting that Hyrule town takes on the personality of just that--a town--whereas in other games it seems more as a city than a town.

[Chaltab]

In a post-TWW TMC, Mount Crenel could be the name given to the mountain on which the Gorons once lived, which is in fact Death Mountain and is later renamed Death Mountain. Same with Veil Falls/Zora's Domain. Castor may have been introduced at some point before/during/after TWW, and after OoT, but I agree that it really ought to be ALttP's swamp.

It doesn't make much sense to me that the Mountain would be renamed Crenel, and then reverted to Death Mountain, especially when it's the opposite compass direction from Hyrule Castle as Death Mountain is depicted in all games but Wii TP.

I find it interesting that Hyrule town takes on the personality of just that--a town--whereas in other games it seems more as a city than a town.

This is just as much a nod for it being pre-OOT as it is for being shortly after the Flood.

[LionHarted]

It doesn't make much sense to me that the Mountain would be renamed Crenel, and then reverted to Death Mountain, especially when it's the opposite compass direction from Hyrule Castle as Death Mountain is depicted in all games but Wii TP.

It doesn't make much sense to me that the source of all water in Hyrule would be less associated with the Zoras before the flood rather than after, when Hyrulean Zoras seem to have become Ritos, or that Gorons would leave the mountains and become merchants, then go back to the mountains, and later become traveling merchants again in TWW.

And since TMC's world map is somewhat inaccurate anyway (especially with the position of Veil Falls relative to Lake Hylia, and of Cloud Tops relative to Veil Falls--Veil Falls is actually directly below, not to the west; don't even get me started on the graveyard lost woods area), the placement of Mount Crenel on TMC's world map is really sort of inconsequential.

This is just as much a nod for it being pre-OOT as it is for being shortly after the Flood.

This is very, very true.

[Fyxe]

I find it interesting that Hyrule town takes on the personality of just that--a town--whereas in other games it seems more as a city than a town.

I think you'll find it's hard to depict a very large town on a GBA.

Also, am I playing the same games or what? Hyrule Castle Town has always been, well, small. Town-like. Heck, it's not even village-sized. It's more of a hamlet. In all the games it appears in.

Also, I can't believe people are still arguing geography. Deluded souls.

[Arturo]

Except in TP, where it's... big.

[LionHarted]

Also, I can't believe people are still arguing geography. Deluded souls.

There are a couple key points--such as villages being flourishing in one game and dead in another, or comparison of place names. Other than that, arguing geography as being a keypoint of continuity is foolish. I'm arguing what we are to make of the locales in TMC--if they are simply the failure of Capcom to conform to the traditional standard for place names while they still use the same geographical features, or if the locales in question are really new places.

[Fyxe]

Except in TP, where it's... big.

Except that it's not.

And LionHarted, Capcom AND Nintendo made TMC. Considering Nintendo can't even come up with a consistent name for the desert, I don't think you can blame Capcom for failing to reuse names.

Besides, they're new locations anyway, there's barely any similarities, so feh. Just because there's a mountain doesn't mean it's Death Mountain, and just because there's a waterfall doesn't mean it's Zora Fountain (which, incidentally, has only appeared in ONE GAME, so why doesn't everyone argue that OoT is the inconsistent one? Is OoT the only game that's allowed to introduce new locations? Are all new games restricted from doing such a thing?).

[LionHarted]

Considering Nintendo can't even come up with a consistent name for the desert, I don't think you can blame Capcom for failing to reuse names.

I'm "blaming" no one. Capcom has never made a Zelda game that conformed to the traditional picture of Hyrule, and I rather like it that way.

Besides, they're new locations anyway, there's barely any similarities, so feh. Just because there's a mountain doesn't mean it's Death Mountain, and just because there's a waterfall doesn't mean it's Zora Fountain (which, incidentally, has only appeared in ONE GAME, so why doesn't everyone argue that OoT is the inconsistent one? Is OoT the only game that's allowed to introduce new locations? Are all new games restricted from doing such a thing?).

Well, it's not just that there's a mountain and a waterfall.

It's that there's a mountain where Gorons used to live and a waterfall which is called the source of all water in Hyrule.
Which consequently happen to be called "Death Mountain" and "Zora's Fountain/Domain" in other games, and happen to be located in relatively the same place as these locales.

Edited by LionHarted, 03 June 2007 - 09:22 AM.

[Fyxe]

Where else are you meant to put a mountain on a 2D game? They're always going to be north, at the top of the map. It's just a design issue. Mt. Crenel is nothing like Death Mountain, and is not in the same location, it's comparitively small (but tall) and stuck off to the side.

I just don't understand how people never comprehend the fact that Hyrule is, well, very large, larger than we see in most games. Has nobody played Zelda II?

Edited by Fyxe, 03 June 2007 - 09:27 AM.

[Arturo]

Except in TP, where it's... big.

Except that it's not.

It's full of people and the largest city seen in Zelda. Yes, it's big.

[Fyxe]

It's full of people and the largest city seen in Zelda. Yes, it's big.

It's not a huge amount bigger than the one in OoT. It's still not city sized.