128 replies to this topic

[Oberon Storm]

The difference is, of course, you don't go out of your way to get fleas. Just like you don't rub your head against a flea-ridden dog unless you've accepted the possibility of fleas, it's stupid to have sex unless you've accepted the possiblity of getting pregnant. Yes, rape does happen, but that's the minority. Unless you're talking to an uber-feminist, but let's not get into that. The point is, it's not quite a parasite because it's wanted. Plus, parasite implies it's a different species. Actually, I think that's part of the definition. Again, you're dehumanizing to justify killing

You give that analogy as if all symbiotic relationships involving a parasite are harmful tot he host.

[SteveT]

Parasites, by definition, take and give nothing back to the host.

[Alakhriveion]

That's true, Steve. And what does the fetus give back, here? Also, the fact you had sex to get it doesn't mean anything.

[SteveT]

It means you accepted the responsibility for its life. (Not to be confused with dominion over.)

The fetus gives nothing back until after it's born and old enough to buy its mom birthday presents. You were a fetus once, you know.

[Alakhriveion]

And I still haven't bought many presents. But for the relaitionship to be anything other than parasitic, it has to give back something tangible. Mitochondria, for example, give us energy from oxygen. A fetus is pretty useless.

[SteveT]

Yes, but so are babies, children, and the comotose. That's no ground to consider them inhuman.

[Alakhriveion]

Children and babies can surive on their own (only for a few hours, but they can), and the comatose have brain activity. Fetuses have nothing like that.

[SteveT]

that's because they're more devoloped specimens of our species

I bet a fetus could survive for a minute or two.

[Alakhriveion]

They're LIVING specimens.

[SteveT]

Then explain the celluar activity of the fetus, if it's not alive.

[Alakhriveion]

Plants can have that too, I've never heard the end of their activity called "murder."

[SteveT]

That's because plants don't have eyes, I imagine. Or do you expect me to say that plants aren't alive?

There is a huge historical precedent for stripping things of their humanity (often invoking the name of science--falsely more often than not) in order to justify killing them. Native Americans, Africans, Gypsies, Jews, the list goes on and on. You can say with a great deal of certaintiy that once the embryo attaches to the uterus, it's most likely going to develop into a baby. How does the growth of any particular organ make it suddenly change from inhuman to human?

[Alakhriveion]

There's also a long history of superstition standing in the way of societies progress- Stem cell bans, bathing bans, and the Butlerian Jihad are all going to be in the same chapter of our children's history textbooks.

Embryos don't have eyes, either.

It's not human until it's born. It can't be murdered until it can think. It can't be killed until it can live on it's own.

[SteveT]

Or perhaps the chapter with the French Revolution, the STD epidemic, and Manifest Destiny. Progress and enlightenement are often misnomers.

Correction: embryos don't have eyes yet. The tree in your back yard isn't ever going to sprout eyes.

It's not human until it's born.

Matter of opinion, and depends on how you define human. I may suggest calling this whole thing a stalemate, since this is where we disagree and where we will never agree with each other.

It can't be murdered until it can think. It can't be killed until it can live on it's own.

Do you support euthanasia, then? I'm realizing through this thread that those two issues use very similar arguments.

[Alakhriveion]

Words are slippery things. Also, some might see the elimination of a despotic monarchy as a positive.

The tree in my back yard can't cure diabetes, either.

Agreed.

In cases where the brain no longer functions, yes.

[SteveT]

Words are slippery things. Also, some might see the elimination of a despotic monarchy as a positive.

That and the metric system were both positive effects of the revolution. Even so, both could have been done without the Reign of Terror. There was a LOT more to the French Revolution that just a regime change.

The tree in my back yard can't cure diabetes, either.

*Resists the urge to make a horrible pun about stem cells*

And please do not brush off my opinions as superstition. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I didn't use logic to get to those beliefs.

[Alakhriveion]

Possibly, thanks, and OK.

[SteveT]

Well, if all they were interested in was a regime change, it would have resembled the American Revolution...where nother else changed.

But I digress.

[Alakhriveion]

Maybe, but the Americans had no king or institution at home, you'll note than Britain still has a queen.

[Ken the Wandering Soul]

Stem cell research itself isen't the ending of life. The abortion which gives the source of stem cell research is the 'ending of life'.

If a woman dosen't want to develop a fetus in her womb, she shouldn't have to. And if the zygote/embryo/whatever can be used to aid in stem cell research, then why the hell not?

If a woman wants to have an abortion, it's her own damn business. When it comes down to it, it's the carrier of the unborn baby's beliefs are the ones that count.

[SteveT]

If she doesn't want a fetus in her womb, she shouldn't do things that put one there. Abortion as birth control is irresponsible.

[Alakhriveion]

And what about in cases of

Rape
Incest
Broken or malfunctioning profelactic
Thread to maternal health?

[SteveT]

My response is this:

(Yeah, that's right. I spelled your name wrong. And I'd do it again!)

[SteveT]

That depends on the intelligence of the woman and the skills of her medical counselor.

I know a girl who was once looking up an abortion clinic's phone number because her period was an hour late.

[SteveT]

I agree. It would serve the same purpose as laws making you wait a week before you can pick your gun up from the store.

[Alakhriveion]

My response is this:

What?

That depends on the intelligence of the woman and the skills of her medical counselor.

Response A: "Intelligence?" "Woman?" What are you talking about?
Response B: Well, of course, that's always true.

[Alakhriveion]