190 replies to this topic

[Inukensha]

ok, me and my older brother was talking about this tonight...he wanted to ask me a personal question and asked "Are you sure your going to heaven?" i told him i didn't believe in heaven or hell and he started talking about this free ticket to heaven thing. i asked him to explain the free ticket to heaven thing and this is what he said:

Ok, so humans are all sinners, started with adam and eve, and snowballed from there, knowing that we cant control ourselves he sent his Son " Jesus, to take our punishment for us"..... now heres the kicker. It was an act of faith, if you surrendor your self to jesus, pray to god and tell him, that you believe in jesus and that he died for your sins, and mean it, you are saved, and you have a free ticket to heaven. Those that do not put thier fath in jesus are not covered and will require like a 1 million block suncreen.

i dont think that is a true statement...but i might be wrong. i just wanted other peoples opinion...feel free to say what you want to say.

[deuterium]

Personally, I do not believe in a guarantee to get into Heaven or whatever. The topic on life after death is a strange one. I find it funny that if God created us and we're here to learn, then why would he punish us? That is why I don't believe too much in the Bible or in other religions. Though, I don't state this to mock, ridicule or insult anyone beliefs. So, I apologize if I pass off as rude. The only person I tend to listen too is Sylvia Browne. Well, I even have issues with what she writes. So, it is not like I believe her one hundred precent but because she has helped solve murder, rape and other cases, it gives her some validity.

[Arturo]

Well, Jesus died for all of us... so in theory, we should go all to the heaven, since all our sins were charged on him. Also, since God is love, he should love as to forgive our sins. Even the Catholic Church isn't sure if anyone is going to Hell.

[Kazi]

According to the Bible, no one in modern times can get into Heaven. There were some seven parts of it, and throughout the Bible, some man will ask Jesus, "How can I get into Heaven?" and Jesus explains how to get into Heaven. Of course the most popular way is John 3:16, but there is more to it. Jesus says to sell all of your belongings, honor the ten commandments, abandon your family to follow Him, eat His flesh, drink His blood, and act like children. I don't have exact quotes, but there really is little room for interpretation, as they're pretty straight-forward.

[Flint]

ok, me and my older brother was talking about this tonight...he wanted to ask me a personal question and asked "Are you sure your going to heaven?" i told him i didn't believe in heaven or hell and he started talking about this free ticket to heaven thing. i asked him to explain the free ticket to heaven thing and this is what he said:

Ok, so humans are all sinners, started with adam and eve, and snowballed from there, knowing that we cant control ourselves he sent his Son " Jesus, to take our punishment for us"..... now heres the kicker. It was an act of faith, if you surrendor your self to jesus, pray to god and tell him, that you believe in jesus and that he died for your sins, and mean it, you are saved, and you have a free ticket to heaven. Those that do not put thier fath in jesus are not covered and will require like a 1 million block suncreen.

i dont think that is a true statement...but i might be wrong. i just wanted other peoples opinion...feel free to say what you want to say.

If a person doesn't believe in heaven, why should they care how much the ticket costs to get there?

[spunky-monkey]

Unfortunately there are no guarantees of getting to Heaven or Hell, which consequently gives the Devil much of his power to deceive humanity because God simply did not tell us who would be saved in the Book of Life for sure. Jesus added to this confusion by saying many believers who address the Son of God as 'Lord' will still go to Hell regardless. I suppose the only guarantee of seeing Heaven is if you were an Angel already in Heaven.

I can't see how I could possibly enjoy Heaven even if I did make it, God terrifies me, it's going to be very empty since practically everyone is suffering in Hell and every reality has its own unique set of rules because Eden had them (Genesis), and everything we do has consequence so we'd probably lose paradise a second time.

[Hero of Winds]

That free ticket to Heaven you're talking about? That's Christianity.

[MikePetersSucks]

El Oh El Reincarnation.

[Arturo]

Unfortunately there are no guarantees of getting to Heaven or Hell, which consequently gives the Devil much of his power to deceive humanity because God simply did not tell us who would be saved in the Book of Life for sure. Jesus added to this confusion by saying many believers who address the Son of God as 'Lord' will still go to Hell regardless. I suppose the only guarantee of seeing Heaven is if you were an Angel already in Heaven.

But that's the point where Jesus enters. Jesus has redeemed THE WHOLE HUMANITY, thus, our sins are not important anymore. That doesn't mean we can sin as much as we want. It's our sins that kill and make Christ suffer... as in the Book of Deuterenomy (I think) cursed is anyone that hangs from a log (I am translating it from Spanish and quoting it from mind). He is the cursed of the cursed. He recieves teh punishment for our sins. That's why it isn't sure if anyone will go to the hell.

I can't see how I could possibly enjoy Heaven even if I did make it, God terrifies me, it's going to be very empty since practically everyone is suffering in Hell and every reality has its own unique set of rules because Eden had them (Genesis), and everything we do has consequence so we'd probably lose paradise a second time.

You don't have to fear God, because God is Love, and God loves us,. as he loves the Son. Jesus called him Abba (daddy). But one thing is fear and another respect. It's like our parents, we mustn't fear them, but we must respect them.

And the people in the Hell (if there are any) aren't physically suffering. They just live in the state of absence of God, of emptiness. But taht is because they chose it.

[Inukensha]

Ok, now this is what i heard from my other brother (daniel, some of you might know him as "Lugana (or whatever)" but its just a theory ok.

He says that the devil is on earth. So to me i thought that ment the since the devil is on earth, is hell on earth? well apparently i'm wrong about that but i still think about that everytime it pops in my head.

But the ticket to heaven is what my older brother theory (i guess). i dont believe theres a heaven so i wanted to ask people who did believe there is a heaven, if thats kinda true.

[TheAvengerLever]

No where in the Bible does it state that hell is ruled by Satan. Hell was created for Satan's punishment. And we're all going there to because we have sin in our lives. Unless we get saved by Jesus and do God's will.

[Reflectionist]

According to the Bible, no one in modern times can get into Heaven. There were some seven parts of it, and throughout the Bible, some man will ask Jesus, "How can I get into Heaven?" and Jesus explains how to get into Heaven. Of course the most popular way is John 3:16, but there is more to it. Jesus says to sell all of your belongings, honor the ten commandments, abandon your family to follow Him, eat His flesh, drink His blood, and act like children. I don't have exact quotes, but there really is little room for interpretation, as they're pretty straight-forward.

Sure there is...

1. Accept Christ... etc. All the stuff you've been 'forcefed' whatever you want to claim has been shoved down your throat.
2. The selling all of your belongings was part of a story about a rich young ruler that put his worldly possissions before God. His thing was "I'm not accepting the Gospel if I can't give God a backseat to the other things in my life which I love." He didn't meet the first requirement. End of story there.
3. Honoring the Ten Commandments? Well, you should, yes, but Jesus never said 'Do it or die.' I mean, the guy hung out with Lepers, Hookers, and Tax Collectors. The Scum of the universe then. Does that sound like someone who would say "Be perfect or Die?" Surely, the Creator of everything would realise that we are not perfect. No matter how hard we try.
4. Abandon your famliy goes with 2. Not a requirement, but if you put MORE faith in your family (again, fallible human beings) than God, well... that's your deal, it's not a good thing.
5. Eating His flesh and drinking His blood just refers to taking communion. The Bible also states that it should be a very grave blow to your conscience if you take communion without getting cool with God, and all. Just get everything in order, ask for forgiveness, whatever... Make sure there's an open line there. You don't send a Christmas Card to a member of the famliy you've never talked to in your life, would you?
5. Act Like Children? Not even close, dude. Jesus admired the fact that Children were so innocent that they listened to their parents, they didn't cuss, they were just... simpler beings. Life was less complicated for them. And if you make an honest attempt to put Christ first in your life, you're gonna find that life becomes a little less complicated than you thought it was. That always helps me... when life gets shitty for me, I just say some prayers, read my bible, and things start lookin bright.

I could probably find those quotes... but I think what you described was more what you've been fed from the modern day "Anti-God" society. Everyone just strives to be so different these days that they would just as soon join a religion just because it's NOT Christianity than join a religion because they think it's RIGHT.

[TheAvengerLever]

Relfectionist...it's impossible for people to be different if they are going towards the same goal. If they're all reaching for the same thing then that means they're all the same, right? That's why I say quit trying to be different because it doesn't get anyone anywhere.

[Fyxe]

Free ticket to heaven. What preachy bullpizzle. Free, yeah, sure, only if selling your own opinions and your own personal judgement.

Anyone who believes in God and Jesus being his son *just* because they want to go to 'Heaven' probably shouldn't deserve to go to Heaven. It sparks of hypocricy.

Inukensha, your brother sounds worryingly like he's actively trying to convert you by bribing you with something that he can't possibly know to be true.

Edited by Fyxe, 08 December 2006 - 12:09 PM.

[Kazi]

I could probably find those quotes... but I think what you described was more what you've been fed from the modern day "Anti-God" society. Everyone just strives to be so different these days that they would just as soon join a religion just because it's NOT Christianity than join a religion because they think it's RIGHT.

Hahaha, oh wow. I don't even know where to start. I think everything that you think you know is just what you've been fed from your pastor. If someone's Muslim, it isn't because they're teen death-metal rebels trying to be different by rejecting Christianity. I love how you completely make void any non-Christian's beliefs because they're clearly just trying to spite you. Not everyone shares your beliefs on what is "right."

Edited by kazi-chan, 08 December 2006 - 12:30 PM.

[Arturo]

Free ticket to heaven. What preachy bullpizzle. Free, yeah, sure, only if selling your own opinions and your own personal judgement.

Anyone who believes in God and Jesus being his son *just* because they want to go to 'Heaven' probably shouldn't deserve to go to Heaven. It sparks of hypocricy.

Inukensha, your brother sounds worryingly like he's actively trying to convert you by bribing you with something that he can't possibly know to be true.

WEll, teh free ticket to the heaven thing shouldn't have anything to do with being Christian. It is based in that Jesus died for the redemption of humanity, of all humanity, evenb the ones who killed him. So it shouldn't be just for Christians.

[SOAP]

Salvation is a very confusing subject, despite most Christians claiming it's so simple. And matters only gets worse when outsiders who don't fully understand Christianity or even want to understand totally misinterepret what Jesus is trying to say. "Jesus wants you to drink his blood and flesh. OMG! God wants us to be VAMPIRES! Squeeee!!!"

I don't like the word "free ticket" to describe salvation, because that's very misleading. Yes, Christianity teaches Jesus died for our sins, but that doesn't maen we can keep sinning, totally fuck God over, and expect to get into Heaven. Jesus provides a way but we still have to walk it. He'll hold your hand, Hell, he'll even carry you. But he's not going to twist your arm. If you don't want to do it then you don't go. Even if if it's free ticket you still have to take it.

Let me put it another way. Say theres big distaster, which laeves everyone in a city homeless and starving. Charity group comes to the area to set up a shelter a free food. But some people don't want any charity. Well okay then. What can you do? Can't exactly force people to saty in place they don't want to live or force feed them food they don't want.

[Arturo]

The thing is, does anybody prefer the eternal loneliness over the eternal happiness?

This is really ambiguous. I am thinking about what it says on the Catechism (or wahatever taht is called) of the Catholic CVhurch and they say a unbaptized person should get saved if he/she would have baptized if he/she knew teh necessity of baptizing for salvation. The thing is: does this refer to the people that don't even know who Jesus was, to the people that know it but wren't educated in Christianism or to the people that don't believe in an afterlife, and therefore don't know the need for baptism?

[SOAP]

I don't know. It is ambigous but I'm an exclusionist and I believe God makes his way known to all people in forms that they can recognise, even if Christians may not awknowlege these forms being the same as their God. I think nearly everyone has the capacity to at least determine right from wrong no matter what culture. I think they can repent of things that they know are wrong even if they feel "right" in order to serve a higher purpose they're not even sure of yet.

What it all boils down to is Love. God is Love. If you have true Love in your heart, then you have God in your heart then you're saved. Sin keeps God from entering your haert but repenting of it makes it go away. Which is why it's important to follow God's laws even if jesus died on the cross. You can't recieve a gift somethings already filling it's space. So basically you decide do you hold onto your sins or recieve the God's gift. You can't have both.

[Arturo]

But the thing is, there is always some love inside of all people. So, by using taht logic, everyone should save. That reminds me that, since God is Love, it is likely a total salvation.

But anyway, we have to work for it, even if eventually everyone is saved.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

WEll, teh free ticket to the heaven thing shouldn't have anything to do with being Christian. It is based in that Jesus died for the redemption of humanity, of all humanity, evenb the ones who killed him. So it shouldn't be just for Christians.

Indeed, by HoW's definition, madmen such as Savonarola would get into Heaven.

This entire topic is based on the Hell dilemma, which takes into consideration these two points:

1. An omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), and omnibenevolent (all-loving) God exists.
2. Some people will be consigned to Hell forever, and will be eternally punished.

The idea of Hell contradicts the omnibenevolent image of God. It is also a punishment that is overly disproportionate to the crime that is committed. Humans can commit only a finite amount of sin, yet Hell is an infinite punishment.

One other issue is that Heaven is also not deserved, for nothing we do in a finite mortal life could merit eternal bliss. We can not earn Heaven but we can certainly reject it.

It's all a very confusing issue and one where we may never know the real truth.

[TheAvengerLever]

Indeed, by HoW's definition, madmen such as Savonarola would get into Heaven.

The idea of Hell contradicts the omnibenevolent image of God.

So it's not fair to give even the worst, poorest of people a chance for salvation?

The idea of Hell does not at all contradict the omnibenevolent image of God if God sent his Son to die for our sins, and if the Son taught us that he is the only way to enter heaven.

[spunky-monkey]

But that's the point where Jesus enters. Jesus has redeemed THE WHOLE HUMANITY, thus, our sins are not important anymore.

Our sins remain intact and are being passed down through the generations, it's the human condition and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Worse still you can reject Christ and commit an even worse sin that is too much for even the almighty God to forgive. Jesus saved "his people" not all of humanity itself.

You don't have to fear God, because God is Love, and God loves us,. as he loves the Son. Jesus called him Abba (daddy).

God is my creator, not my father because I am merely a human being made of flesh and blood, not a spirit. God loves Jesus because he is his only true son. God can destroy me therefore he will always be feared. God is not 'Love' itself because that is just an emotion, a supernatural being cannot be an abstract feeling.

What it all boils down to is Love. God is Love. If you have true Love in your heart, then you have God in your heart then you're saved. Sin keeps God from entering your haert but repenting of it makes it go away. Which is why it's important to follow God's laws even if jesus died on the cross. You can't recieve a gift somethings already filling it's space. So basically you decide do you hold onto your sins or recieve the God's gift. You can't have both.

God made the universe out of love. He is not to be confused with the emotion of the same name. We can't simply cast our own sins aside because that is folly, only Jesus can do that. We can't do anything, even for ourselves.

[Arturo]

Our sins remain intact and are being passed down through the generations, it's the human condition and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Worse still you can reject Christ and commit an even worse sin that is too much for even the almighty God to forgive. Jesus saved "his people" not all of humanity itself.

Book of Isaiah Chapter 53:

1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. 4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

That thsi profecy refers to Christ is mentioned in the Book of acts:
Chapter 8:

30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

God is my creator, not my father because I am merely a human being made of flesh and blood, not a spirit. God loves Jesus because he is his only true son. God can destroy me therefore he will always be feared. God is not 'Love' itself because that is just an emotion, a supernatural being cannot be an abstract feeling.

That is just false. God is our Father, and Jesus states it many times, for example in the Lord's Pray or in John 20:

17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And according to the Genesis, he made us out of clay and infused as life with his very breath.

And God is Love himself, as is stated in the Bible:
First Epistle of John, chapter 1:

8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

God made the universe out of love. He is not to be confused with the emotion of the same name. We can't simply cast our own sins aside because that is folly, only Jesus can do that. We can't do anything, even for ourselves.

WE can't do anything, that's true. But someone has done it for us. His name is Jesus, and he came here to DIE. He is the Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world (Jn 1:29). In Jewish religion sacrifices were the way for god to forgive sins. Christ is the pure sacrifice, the true sacrfice, and through it sins are forgiven.

Edited by Arturo, 08 December 2006 - 07:22 PM.

[Korhend]

So it's not fair to give even the worst, poorest of people a chance for salvation?

No.

Indeed, by HoW's definition, madmen such as Savonarola would get into Heaven.

Being as this is like the Sixth Time we've had this debate, maybe we should put together a comprehensive list of people who would get into heaven by that interperetation, but really really shouldn't.

Edited by Korhend, 08 December 2006 - 09:32 PM.

[TheAvengerLever]

Well Korhend, I'm not trying to be rude to you or anything, just trying to prove a point. If you can't offer someone who's done the worst thing in a world a second chance then that would make you look like a terrible person.

[Flint]

Good old Christianity. So full of holes and contradictions, even Christians can't agree on how it works.

[MikePetersSucks]

Well Korhend, I'm not trying to be rude to you or anything, just trying to prove a point. If you can't offer someone who's done the worst thing in a world a second chance then that would make you look like a terrible person.

Oh sure, go ahead and kill millions upon millions of Jews. As long as you're sorry for it later you're off the hook.

Excuse me for being a terrible person and stopping someone before they repeat their crimes.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Well Korhend, I'm not trying to be rude to you or anything, just trying to prove a point. If you can't offer someone who's done the worst thing in a world a second chance then that would make you look like a terrible person.

Yes, but by HoW's definition, Hitler would automatically go to Heaven if he really was a Christian as he once claimed to be.

[SOAP]

God made the universe out of love. He is not to be confused with the emotion of the same name. We can't simply cast our own sins aside because that is folly, only Jesus can do that. We can't do anything, even for ourselves.

Love is more than just an emotion. Emotions are fickle and pass. True, unconditional love stays, even when the emotions associated with it change or seem to die down. If you truly love someone, you stick by them even during the hard times. If God is truly in you, you'd be able to love unconditionally. Unconditional love isn't something you're born with but it's something we all crave and God gives freely.

Also Jesus alraedy cast our sins aside when he died on the cross. The thing is that most people still try to hold onto their sins because it's easier. It's like people who suffer from depression, who wish to be healed but they much rather wallow in their own self-pity because the road to change isn't easy. And it sure as hell isn't easy to follow someone you can't see, and more the half the world tells you doesn't even exist.

Yes, but by HoW's definition, Hitler would automatically go to Heaven if he really was a Christian as he once claimed to be.

Wasn't Hitler into astrology and the occult? And the Lost City of Atlantis.

Edited by SOAP, 09 December 2006 - 07:51 AM.