111 replies to this topic

[Ogmios22188]

I think it's a stretch to say Oot and ALttP are a millenia apart but anyways we don't need pole shift theories to explain Hyrule's geography. The OoT map points at True North, and the ALttP map points at Magnetic north as well as the arrow in the OoT maps compass.

Is it that much of a stretch for them to be millenia apart? Hyrule Castle has changed place. The Gorons are nearly extinct and are hostile. The Kokiri have aged. The Zora look completely different and are hostile, like the Gorons. No Gerudos. And if "Ocarina of Time" is the Imprisoning War, the account is quite different in "A Link to the Past" compared to what actually happened. All of these changes would more realistically happen over millenia as opposed to say five hundred years.

[Paviel]

Is it that much of a stretch for them to be millenia apart? Hyrule Castle has changed place. The Gorons are nearly extinct and are hostile. The Kokiri have aged. The Zora look completely different and are hostile, like the Gorons. No Gerudos. And if "Ocarina of Time" is the Imprisoning War, the account is quite different in "A Link to the Past" compared to what actually happened. All of these changes would more realistically happen over millenia as opposed to say five hundred years.

Considering also how long it takes trees to grow, and the fact that there is a forest of trees in aLttP where there are few trees in OoT, I'd say it isn't a stretch at all for the two games to be millennia apart.

[Raien]

Remember what the Great Deku Tree said in TWW:

Every year after the Koroks perform this ceremony, they fly off to the distant islands on the sea and plant my seeds in the hopes that new forests will grow. Forests hold great power--they can change one tiny island into a much larger island. Soon, a day will come when all the islands are one, connected by earth and grove. And the people who live on that great island will be able to join hands and, together, create a better world.

This explains how the forests expanded over many centuries, possibly millennia.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 November 2006 - 11:54 AM.

[SOAP]

I'd say 1,000 years, AT MOST. Hyrule has hardly changed, cullturally and technologically. The only sigficant changes in their culture is the loss of the magic-infused Hylian language. Hyrule Castle could've been destroyed and rebuilt elsewhere, races can dissappear rather quick, the hostile Zora are actually another species of Zora and both coexist in the Oracle games so one doesn't neccessarily have to have evolved from the other, and if you want OoT to be the Imprisoning War so badly, ALttP clearly states only five generations had passed since then, not a millenia.

As for the Deku Tree's prophecy, islands mergings together to become a greater island involve magic and is not a natural phenonemon so it's not limited to the sanme time timespan as natural geographical changes.

[LionHarted]

ALttP clearly states only five generations had passed since then, not a millenia.

You're quoting a mistranslation.

NOA translation of the quote in question: "Three or four generations ago, an order of knights protected the royalty of the Hylia."
Literal translation of the quote in question: "Long ago, there was a family of people who protected the Hylian royal family."

As for the Deku Tree's prophecy, islands mergings together to become a greater island involve magic and is not a natural phenonemon so it's not limited to the sanme time timespan as natural geographical changes.

Au contraire. It's a perfectly natural process. It's less an actual merging of the islands than simply a raising of the entire sea floor (which, if you remember, is Old Hyrule) to above sea level. This happens in nature--it's how islands form.

Edited by LionHarted, 01 November 2006 - 02:37 PM.

[CID Farwin]

I'd say 1,000 years, AT MOST. Hyrule has hardly changed, cullturally and technologically.

It's a fantasy world with magic, there's no real need for technological improvement. As for changing culturally, you've already said things that I wouldn't consider a slight change.

As for this argument of forests raising the sea floor, that's only assuming a single timeline, and with a split timeline there is no real problem. Since I beleive a split timeline, I will end my comments on any such things here.

Also, to CID Farwin, that quote is never used in-game, but appears in the text dump. So no-one says it.

Thanks!

[Arturo]

I can't think of how the trees would unite the islands? Do they absorb the water through their roots or what?

[Raien]

I can't think of how the trees would unite the islands? Do they absorb the water through their roots or what?

As the trees grow and create more trees, they increase the landmass and cause the islands to grow in size, effectively raising the surface of Old Hyrule above the surface of the Great Sea.

Think about it. TMC's background shows two small islands. FSA shows Hyrule as one large island. ALTTP shows the same scene as FSA but with mountains instead of sea and AoL shows that Hyrule is now part of a much larger landmass.

In other words, the Deku Tree's dream is still active throughout the timeline, as Hyrule's landmass constantly expands above the surface since the Great Flood began.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 November 2006 - 04:06 PM.

[Jumbie]

As the trees grow and create more trees, they increase the landmass and cause the islands to grow in size, effectively raising the surface of Old Hyrule above the surface of the Great Sea.

But how can an increase of trees make the islands grow?! Do the trees somehow produce additional soil out of thin air, or do they actually soak up the salty sea water so the sea level sinks to reveal more land? Both theories are totally illogical, and please don't anyone say "Magic!", because I don't see what's supposed to be magical about simple trees.

[Raien]

But how can an increase of trees make the islands grow?! Do the trees somehow produce additional soil out of thin air, or do they actually soak up the salty sea water so the sea level sinks to reveal more land? Both theories are totally illogical, and please don't anyone say "Magic!", because I don't see what's supposed to be magical about simple trees.

We are not told how the forests will join the islands together but we know that this is possible because the Deku Tree states it as truth. "Forests hold great power..."

Sorry about these repeat posts. I accidentally made them when zeldalegends went offline during me writing the message.

Edited by Showsni, 02 November 2006 - 06:47 AM.

[SOAP]

You're quoting a mistranslation.

NOA translation of the quote in question: "Three or four generations ago, an order of knights protected the royalty of the Hylia."
Literal translation of the quote in question: "Long ago, there was a family of people who protected the Hylian royal family."

Very well then.

Au contraire. It's a perfectly natural process. It's less an actual merging of the islands than simply a raising of the entire sea floor (which, if you remember, is Old Hyrule) to above sea level. This happens in nature--it's how islands form.

What...?

Islands form from underwater volcanic activity. NOt by trees raising the sea floor. It's not a natural phenonemon and these aren't natural trees. As soon as you plant and water them, they sprout up. jhurvid is right on one thing. These aren't ordinary seeds.

But how can an increase of trees make the islands grow?! Do the trees somehow produce additional soil out of thin air, or do they actually soak up the salty sea water so the sea level sinks to reveal more land? Both theories are totally illogical, and please don't anyone say "Magic!", because I don't see what's supposed to be magical about simple trees.

They're NOT simple trees. They're from the Deku Tree himself and he's no ordinary tree now is he? If you don't like the idea of magic as an explanation then how do you explain the fact that he can talk or KoRL for that matter?

[Jumbie]

We are not told how the forests will join the islands together but we know that this is possible because the Deku Tree states it as truth. "Forests hold great power..."

Mhm, nice way around giving an explanation..
So, is the KoRL not telling the truth when he says, "This land will not be Hyrule - it will be your land"?

They're NOT simple trees. They're from the Deku Tree himself and he's no ordinary tree now is he? If you don't like the idea of magic as an explanation then how do you explain the fact that he can talk or KoRL for that matter?

Of course I don't generally deny the existence of magic in Zelda (I ain't silly, huh), but if not even a normal tree can work without magic, where are we getting to?
Fine, those might be very special trees, but still I don't know how they would manage to enlarge the islands. And I do want to know, since I'm asking for a possible explanation of how a New Hyrule could emerge. If someone asks me how the timeline split comes about, I may ask how the New Hyrule comes about.

[Fyxe]

Jumbie, technically the whole of Forest Haven has formed around a giant tree. So the trees would essentially form a lot of the land themselves, I would presume.

It's all very metaphisical though. I mean, you might as well ask why Link doesn't drown when in Hyrule, or why the crane clearly doesn't ever go down long enough to actually enter the sealed Hyrule (which it couldn't do anyway, cos, well, it's sealed, otherwise anyone could reach it by going far enough down in the water).

[LionHarted]

Trees could contribute to the restoration of land in a couple of completely natural ways:

1) They could leech up the seawater, slowly draining the Great Sea;
2) The expansion of their roots could raise the land below via overgrowth (this often causes damage to property);

Edited by LionHarted, 02 November 2006 - 06:30 PM.

[Jumbie]

Jumbie, technically the whole of Forest Haven has formed around a giant tree. So the trees would essentially form a lot of the land themselves, I would presume.

Hehe, you wouldn't want to know what I believe that giant tree to actually be
Anyway, I quite like this theory. A continent made of dead wood, which becomes earth eventually.. Yes, I could approve of this. Thanks!

I mean, you might as well ask why Link doesn't drown when in Hyrule

First he chokes, then he somehow accustoms to it.. I think the transition happens at the point they penetrate the seal.

the crane clearly doesn't ever go down long enough to actually enter the sealed Hyrule (which it couldn't do anyway, cos, well, it's sealed, otherwise anyone could reach it by going far enough down in the water).

I've always believed that the treasure chests don't sit in Sunken Hyrule at all, but rather on top of the seal. If the seal can hold the water pressure, it will also hold some chests that have sunken upon it.

1) They could leech up the seawater, slowly draining the Great Sea

I already ruled this out.. Well, I don't know, do trees like salt water that much?

2) The expansion of their roots could raise the land below via overgrowth (this often causes damage to property)

Hmm, I don't know.. I'd rather go with Fyxe's theory, if I had to choose.

[CID Farwin]

Hmmm, All really good ideas on how the land could be raised. Here's another one.

Ganondorf at the end of TWW is turned to stone by the Master sword shoved into the giant crystal on his forehead, and the triforce goes off to who knows where. Is it not possible for either Ganon (As Aghanim) or someone else either under his influence or just plain evil as well, could get a hold of the Triforce and then use IT to raise hyrule from the sea floor?

(Before you ask how Ganon can be Aghanim while he's in stone, consider that he can be Aghanim while still trapped inside the Dark World.)

[Fyxe]

Hehe, you wouldn't want to know what I believe that giant tree to actually be

o.o''''

Um. Is this to do with 'wood'? I do want to know now you've said that.

First he chokes, then he somehow accustoms to it.. I think the transition happens at the point they penetrate the seal.

Yes, but my point is that Hyrule is clearly not covered in water. It's, well... Dry.

I've always believed that the treasure chests don't sit in Sunken Hyrule at all, but rather on top of the seal. If the seal can hold the water pressure, it will also hold some chests that have sunken upon it.

But what about the Tri-Forks pieces? Basically I think that the physics of the 'ocean floor' are a bit seperate from the world below the ocean. There is a world under there, but unless you actually break the seal or enter it by whatever means, it has almost zero effect on the Great Sea and the ocean floor.

Basically it's just a bit vague.

[Jumbie]

Um. Is this to do with 'wood'? I do want to know now you've said that.

Don't worry, nothing inappropriate. It's just my belief that the giant tree that Forest Haven consists of is actually the inflated, dead bark of OoT's Deku Tree. How did it grow so big despite it being dead? Well, "magic" This theory is wide spread, of course, but I have a feeling not everyone will agree..

Yes, but my point is that Hyrule is clearly not covered in water. It's, well... Dry.

That's evident, yes. Therefore the so-called sea floor has to be located above the seal.

But what about the Tri-Forks pieces? Basically I think that the physics of the 'ocean floor' are a bit seperate from the world below the ocean. There is a world under there, but unless you actually break the seal or enter it by whatever means, it has almost zero effect on the Great Sea and the ocean floor.

Alright, so we have the same understanding. It must be that the treasure chests with the Triforce shards got on top of the seal somehow. Thinking of the "Triumph Forks" myth and the according treasure charts (made by pirates most likely), maybe the shards were put into the chests only when the world had long been flooded, and then thrown into the sea for whatever reason? Well, the descendants of the Royal Family, who could've well been in touch with the ToC too, have always been Pirates, so...

[Raien]

Basically I think that the physics of the 'ocean floor' are a bit seperate from the world below the ocean. There is a world under there, but unless you actually break the seal or enter it by whatever means, it has almost zero effect on the Great Sea and the ocean floor.

That actually makes a lot of sense.

Also, I don't think Link was choking when he went underwater; he was just holding his breath assuming he would drown.

[Paviel]

Is it not possible for either Ganon (As Aghanim) or someone else either under his influence or just plain evil as well, could get a hold of the Triforce and then use IT to raise hyrule from the sea floor?

I could see flooded Hyrule in TWW becoming the Dark World in aLttP, since nothing is particularly dry in the Dark World.

On the other hand, I don't think that Agahnim was Ganon, at least at first. I believe that one of the Maidens said that Ganon had used Agahnim as his pawn at first, which suggests two different entities. I think Agahnim wanted to revive Ganon (just like all of those minions in AoL), and after he succeeded in doing so, Ganon started to take control of him.

[MikePetersSucks]

Ganon never needed reviving when Agahnim was around anyway, so there's no reason why Agahnim would want to, or could, revive Ganon.

Furthermore, the flooded Hyrule and the Dark World aren't even in the same universe O_o much less the same place.

[Keen]

Furthermore, the flooded Hyrule and the Dark World aren't even in the same universe O_o much less the same place.

Eh, maybe Ganondorf stuck them together. Yes, a wizard did it, that makes sense.... Maybe it was the only way he could escape, to drag the chains of the Dark World with him.

[Raien]

Eh, maybe Ganondorf stuck them together. Yes, a wizard did it, that makes sense.... Maybe it was the only way he could escape, to drag the chains of the Dark World with him.

Either this is a joke or you don't understand the mechanics of the Dark World.

There are two dimensions in the Zelda series: Hyrule and the Sacred Realm. When Ganon covers one of these realms in darkness, it transforms into the Dark World. ALTTP's Dark World was the Sacred Realm covered in darkness.

[CID Farwin]

On the other hand, I don't think that Agahnim was Ganon, at least at first. I believe that one of the Maidens said that Ganon had used Agahnim as his pawn at first, which suggests two different entities. I think Agahnim wanted to revive Ganon (just like all of those minions in AoL), and after he succeeded in doing so, Ganon started to take control of him.

Interesting... I never really thought about it that way. Either way, Aghanim does end up as Ganon.

Furthermore, the flooded Hyrule and the Dark World aren't even in the same universe O_o much less the same place.

Is this a split timeline defence? This statement doesn't really make sence to me right now.

Anyway, there's an article by Davogones that theorizes about OoT Future becoming the Dark World.

[Fyxe]

Agahnim being called a pawn is a mere translation issue, I believe.

[Duke Serkol]

Agahnim being called a pawn is a mere translation issue, I believe.

OR it could be what the character telling you believed was going on...

Not that I am against "Agahnim possessed by Ganon" theories.
Agahnim after all, looks like a Sheikah, but seeing as by ALttP no one remembers what a Sheikah is anymore, it'd be pretty pointless as a "disguise". Furthermore, the Dark World's pyramid has plenty of Agahnim statues, which would be kinda weird if it was just a "costume for ol' Ganny.

[Chaltab]

I think Agahnim was a sorcerrer working with Ganon, who got in way over his head and ended up being possessed. Well, more accurately, got his soul consumed, becoming just a shell with Ganon in him by the time you fight him in the end.

As for geography, I've pretty much given up on using it as timeline evidence. The maps are constructed to provide the game experience the developers want to provide, not to provide continuity with the last game. The shifting positions I simply blame on hundreds of years of stuff happening and the Great Flood.

[SOAP]

Well there isn't a strict continuity as far as geography is concerned, but there are strong simmilarities that give a nod to previous Hyrules.

[CID Farwin]

I think I just discovered something. I was looking at the maps for ALttP and OoT and it occured to me: One of the maps is distorted! it's impossible to tell which one, because both use their world maps for their in-game maps. When you take this into consideration, there's absolutely no "oddities;" Hyrule castle is in the same place! Look at the maps; in both of them Hyrule castle is directly "south" of spectacle rock/death mountain. (assuming of course the arrow on the OoT map points to ALttP's north)

[MikePetersSucks]

Is this a split timeline defence? This statement doesn't really make sence to me right now.

Anyway, there's an article by Davogones that theorizes about OoT Future becoming the Dark World.

No, regardless of what timeline you believe in, the Sacred Realm/Dark World is another, spiritual universe, while the sunken Hyrule is just some Atlantis-style lost kingdom under the sea. They're nothing alike.

Furthermore, Davogones doesn't know everything, and that article is almost a decade obsolete.