111 replies to this topic

[Paviel]

I find the argument that Hyrule has the same geography in OoT and aLttP a bit... odd. Sure, the land is similar in both games, but when you consider that the relative positions of Death Mountain, the Lost Woods, and Zora's River are different in the two games (Death Mountain is roughly between the Lost Woods and Zora's River in aLttP, whereas Zora's River is roughly between Death Mountain and the Lost Woods in OoT), some major geographical changes must have been made in the hundreds of years between those two games.

To be sure, the geography is similar in some ways. Rotate the map of aLttP clockwise 45 degrees, or the map of OoT counterclockwise, and the relative positions of Lake Hylia, the Desert, and Death Mountain are identical. Zora's River, the graveyard, and even the resting place of the Master Sword fit nicely into that picture too.

However, despite these similarities, the following changes must have been made to OoT's geography for it to be the same as aLttP's geography.

- Hyrule Castle must have been torn down, and a forest that would eventually be known as the Lost Woods must have been grown in its place.

- Lon Lon Ranch must have become the site of the new Hyrule Castle.

- The Lost Woods must have been deforested, and it is possible that the Forest Temple could have become the Eastern Palace.

- Kakariko Village must have been torn down. I can't think what was in the equivalent location in aLttP other than the Sanctuary, but there was no Sanctuary in Kakariko in OoT. So I guess it must have been built after OoT.

- Possibly the Castle Town could have become the new Kakariko Village, or possibly the new Kakariko was built farther south. (Actually, both could have happened; the new Kakariko extends from the forest almost as far as the desert.)

- A swamp must have formed between Lake Hylia and the Desert.

- Death Mountain must have become extinct, and the Tower of Hera must have been built near the crater.

That's all I can think of. To the best of my knowledge, these are the fewest possible assumptions that go with the argument that the geography is the same in OoT and aLttP. Granted, most of the assumptions are quite plausible given a few centuries between the games (and given that a lake can be drained and a waterfall frozen over in seven years), but that's still a lot to assume...

Edited by Paviel, 22 October 2006 - 12:08 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

- Hyrule Castle must have been torn down, and a forest that would eventually be known as the Lost Woods must have been grown in its place.

- Lon Lon Ranch must have become the site of the new Hyrule Castle.

- The Lost Woods must have been deforested, and it is possible that the Forest Temple could have become the Eastern Palace.

Yes, I believe most of us who care about Hyrule's geography assume that there's really 2 forests and that the one in OoT used to cover the Eastern Palace but has receded off of ALttP's map.

- Kakariko Village must have been torn down. I can't think what was in the equivalent location in aLttP other than the Sanctuary, but there was no Sanctuary in Kakariko in OoT. So I guess it must have been built after OoT.

The cemetery fits pretty well though, doesn't it?

- A swamp must have formed between Lake Hylia and the Desert.

Actually, there's a blank space cloudy space in OoT's map where I think it could be fit (where the wind rose is)

- Death Mountain must have become extinct, and the Tower of Hera must have been built near the crater.

Extinct? As in Goron-less?

[Fyxe]

Yes, I believe most of us who care about Hyrule's geography assume that there's really 2 forests and that the one in OoT used to cover the Eastern Palace but has receded off of ALttP's map.

Where did the Forest Temple go, mind?

The cemetery fits pretty well though, doesn't it?

Except in OoT it's partway up the mountain to begin with.

Actually, there's a blank space cloudy space in OoT's map where I think it could be fit (where the wind rose is)

That would require some of the hills and mountains to just, well, vanish, else nobody would be able to reach it.

Extinct? As in Goron-less?

As in volcano-less, I assume.

[Arturo]

They are fairly similar, so I don't think we can be very picky about it.


About the swamps. Erosion anybody?

We have to consider, that while the ALttP Hyrule world was divided in screens, OoT is divided in areas. So, for techniacl reasons every area has only one entry, instead of the open world we have in ALttP.

But definitely, they are the same Hyrule.

[LionHarted]

Map Legend:
A = Hyrule Castle, original location
B = Death Mountain, western peak
C = Graveyard
D = Zora's Fountain
E = Forest Temple/Eastern Forest (approximate)
F = Lake Hylia, original location
G = Hyrule Town, original location
H = South Hyrule/Swamp (approximate)
I = Desert
J = Zora's River, northeast

Below is the OoT world map. Here we see most of the locales in their original location. Note that, in the gameplay map, OoT's Desert Colossus is actually situated to the south, a good ways west of Lake Hylia, so its position on this map is only approximate, probably since the deserts do not have an actual gameplay map.



Below is the TWW Great Sea chart. Most of the locales are covered in ocean, but we can still make out the relative locations of Death Mountain (Dragon Roost), the forest (Forest Haven), what could be either the Desert Colossus or the Water Temple (Headstone Island), and the location of Hyrule Castle (under the Tower of the Gods).



Below is the highly inaccurate gameplay map of TMC. I say it's inaccurate since it depicts Cloud Tops as being slightly east of Veil Falls, when actually it should be directly above it.

When describing the Mount Crenel/Veil Falls problem, I find it helpful to look at it from this perspective: Mount Crenel is actually Death Mountain's western peak, and Veil Falls is the Eastern peak, or, perhaps more accurately, Zora's Fountain. Note that this actually winds up placing--on a geographical map and not just one contrived from gameplay areas (obviously as you climb a mountain peak you aren't traveling drastically northward as you do so, and obviously what you see in gameplay doesn't constitute the whole of Hyrule)--the graveyard slightly south and east of Mount Crenel itself, and north of Hyrule Castle: approximately where the graveyard is in ALttP.

Also, bear in mind that the graveyard forests literally ARE part of what will become in ALttP the Lost Woods, and actually have the whole "you must follow the directions to make it through" concept attached to them. The forests may have continued westward, or may (from a singular standpoint, do) spread westward as history progresses.



In FSA we see much more of the world map, including the western chunk of the country, including the desert and the northern Lost Woods (the western half of the forest we see south of the Graveyard in TMC).



The only real difference between the ALttP map and the FSA map is that Kakariko Village takes up more area, and Lake Hylia also seems to have flooded the area around the old Kokiri/Minish forest. Other than that, it's fairly similar. We also see more of the Swamp ruins from TMC in ALttP than in FSA.

[Keen]

Possibly, the Lost Woods were not deforested, but they, being Lost and all, have the ability to roam the land, searching for their rightful home, very, very slowly. Yet, still fairly quick for a forest.

[Duke Serkol]

Nice post Lionharted. You gave me a better idea of what may be up with Lake Hylia in FSA and MC, thanks


And Fyxe, what Paviel was suggesting (which I consider quite possible) is that the Forest Temple IS the Eastern Palace.

[Fyxe]

Of course, if you take liberties with the actual in-game map like LionHarted is suggesting, you could make any map look like any other map.

Have a cookie.

[Duke Serkol]

*Chomps* Thanks

[LionHarted]

Yes. Because Cloud Tops is definitely east of Veil Falls.

[Fyxe]

Not that, LionHarted, the fact that you missed that there's a castle, a forest AND a graveyard inbetween the two so-called peaks of Death Mountain, one of which isn't Death Mountain because it's MOUNT CRENEL and one of which isn't Death Mountain or Zora's Falls because it's VEIL FALLS.

Edited by Fyxe, 22 October 2006 - 07:44 PM.

[LionHarted]

Sort of like America being called the West Indies, no? Also, if one of the placements on that map is incorrect, I can assume that more than one placement is incorrect. The mountains are always north of the castles in Zelda games. Unfailingly. Whether or not TMC's gameplay map reflects this is irrelevant, isn't it? Because, after all, that's what it is, isn't it? A gameplay map. A map of the gameplay areas. Nothing more.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 October 2006 - 08:11 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

If it was just for the caslte, it could easily be guessed that the mountains for an upside down "U" around it. The cemetery complicates things though (in that it seems to end with the horizon behind it)

[Fyxe]

Sort of like America being called the West Indies, no?

No. Very much no.

Also, if one of the placements on that map is incorrect, I can assume that more than one placement is incorrect.

The clouds were there because otherwise they would have to rearrange the whole map. It's not difficult to understand.

The mountains are always north of the castles in Zelda games. Unfailingly.

Except for The Minish Cap. And OoT. And AoL. And MM while I'm at it.

Whether or not TMC's gameplay map reflects this is irrelevant, isn't it? Because, after all, that's what it is, isn't it? A gameplay map. A map of the gameplay areas. Nothing more.

Then forget the map for a second. The fact that the castle is huge and is further walk north than the foothills of Mount Crenel might, just MIGHT mean it's inbetween the two mountains. Not only that, but the forest we see on the map before the graveyard is physically much bigger than it looks on the map, meaning there's an even *larger* area between the two.

And Serkol, from the outside areas during the Hyrule Castle sequence there is absolutely no indication of there being a mountain right behind it.

Quite frankly, both of you, if they had intended either Mount Crenel or Veil Falls to be anything to do with Death Mountain, they wouldn't of given them entirely different names and they wouldn't of placed them in such locations. You have to accept that there is clearly NO creator intention for the mountains to be at all related, and all you're doing is just hunting for a connection.

Honestly, we already know there is more than one mountain range in Hyrule. And that the castle isn't the same all the time or in the same location. So why oh why oh why are you so desperate to find any vague geographical connections at all? What difference does it make to *anything*?

Edited by Fyxe, 22 October 2006 - 09:19 PM.

[LionHarted]

The clouds were there because otherwise they would have to rearrange the whole map. It's not difficult to understand.

The people on these boards love to use selective reasoning.

Except for The Minish Cap. And OoT. And AoL. And MM while I'm at it.

TMC is inadmissible, being the topic of debate. Death Mountain is certainly north of Hyrule Castle, albeit, not directly. AoL doesn't have a "Hyrule Castle". Neither does MM.

Then forget the map for a second. The fact that the castle is huge and is further walk north than the foothills of Mount Crenel might, just MIGHT mean it's inbetween the two mountains.

Again, if the map is inaccurate, that means the castle isn't necessarily further north than the foothills, does it?

Not only that, but the forest we see on the map before the graveyard is physically much bigger than it looks on the map, meaning there's an even *larger* area between the two.

The forest on the map before the graveyard also extends MUCH further north than the map depicts.

You have to accept that there is clearly NO creator intention for the mountains to be at all related, and all you're doing is just hunting for a connection.

Aside from the fact that the Gorons used to live on Mount Crenel, you mean.

Edited by LionHarted, 22 October 2006 - 09:48 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Because, after all, that's what it is, isn't it? A gameplay map. A map of the gameplay areas. Nothing more.

Doesn't this statement make ALL geographical analysis pointless?

With that in mind, Geographical analysis is just pull stuff out of your bum and using it to cement BS theories.

[SOAP]

While I'm one of the biggest geography whores here, I have to side with Fyxe on this one. You guys are really scrapping for evidence to support your theories. You can't always trust maps because maps in the Zelda games aren't neccessarily drawn for accuracy. They're approximate at best and when you try to compare two approximate maps, of course things aren't going to line up.

First off, I'm surprised people are still confused about the ALttP and OoT maps. Either you see the connections by rotating the map slightly or you don't. It's as simple as that. No one has offered anything new that hasn't been dicussed a hundred times before so why on earth are you guys bringing up such an age old issue? God, just put that arguement to rest already!

The bigger issue is TMC which seems deviate the most of what is traditional thought of as Hyrule. Having actually played TMC, I don't think I can support the theory that Mt. Crenel and Veil falls are two ends of horseshoe-shaped Death Mountian cut off from the rest of the map. Nevermind the fact that Death Mountian has never been a U-shape EVER, just by climbing one of the beanstacks or any really high surface pretty much proves there's no Death Mountian to the north.

Edited by SOAP, 23 October 2006 - 01:34 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

from the outside areas during the Hyrule Castle sequence there is absolutely no indication of there being a mountain right behind it.

Uh? What Hyrule Castle sequence? There is a point during the game when we see the castle from above or something? I don't remember that

by climbing one of the beanstacks or any really high surface pretty much proves there's no Death Mountian to the north.

Interesting point! I never paid much attention to there being or not mountains in the background while on the beanstalks, so I'll have to go check again to satisfy my curiosity.


But my, aren't you people aggressive here. By the way some of you react one would think LionHarted and I (note that I do not concur with -everything- he said, but I'm perfectly fine with that) had walked into the Vatican while shouting lines from the possessed girl in The Exorcist
Should I like to believe that the mountains in MC are U shaped (which I may or may not, I did not even make up my mind on the issue yet) I don't see why this should disturb you so greatly that we have to be addressed with remarks like

all you're doing is just hunting for a connection.
Honestly, we already know there is more than one mountain range in Hyrule. And that the castle isn't the same all the time or in the same location. So why oh why oh why are you so desperate to find any vague geographical connections at all? What difference does it make to *anything*?

Indeed, what difference does it make if we do or do not have fun hunting for connections between maps? None. So why get so worked up? It's not like I'm demanding anybody else to believe my conclusions (whatever they may eventually be).

You guys are really scrapping for evidence to support your theories.

I don't even base my storyline theories on geography (and I'm sure I never gave indication of the contrary). I look into geography for geography's sake.

[Fyxe]

I wasn't really referring to you, Serkol, rather people who do see it as a vital storyline issue, or take it really seriously. There's a lot of them and it just goes on and on.

It's one thing to look for connections, it's another thing to claim the connections as facts or use them to support theories.

Oh, I was referring to the balcony sections in Hyrule Castle, of which there were a few.

[Arturo]

I think about Geography just when I am bored. I don't see any connection between Mt Crenel and Death Mountain, seriously.

And about selective reasoning... remember we are in a fantasy world. In our universe, selective reasoning is a common instrument in sciences. Take quantum physics and relativists. Well, in a fantasy universe this is even more valid. Because we are dealing with things that don't exist. If we see something happen and cannot explain why, we cannot try to do it. We must accept it. That goes for the seal that trascends timelines and for the Triforce of Courage, for example.

[Duke Serkol]

Oh okay, that's cool then

Balconies..? Oh, you mean DARK Hyrule Castle, I see now! I'll have to give that a second look too then.

[Fyxe]

That goes for the seal that trascends timelines

Going by your logic, we don't actually witness anything to do with this. So we shouldn't assume it happens.

and for the Triforce of Courage, for example.

However, we do witness this, and it means young Link has the ToC at the end of OoT. This means one of two things.
1 - Ganondorf has touched the Triforce. Most likely.
2 - Link took the ToC back with him. Incredibly unlikely.

But lets not start a whole dicussion on that. ¬.¬

[LionHarted]

1 - Ganondorf has touched the Triforce. Most likely.
2 - Link took the ToC back with him. Incredibly unlikely.

Why is 2 incredibly unlikely?

[Arturo]

Going by your logic, we don't actually witness anything to do with this. So we shouldn't assume it happens.
However, we do witness this, and it means young Link has the ToC at the end of OoT. This means one of two things.
1 - Ganondorf has touched the Triforce. Most likely.
2 - Link took the ToC back with him. Incredibly unlikely.

But lets not start a whole dicussion on that. ¬.¬

well, we don't witness it directly. We see Princess Zelda back in the Castle, that is a clear symptom that Ganondorf is not around anymore. We also have the beautiful MM manga that shows a peaceful, Ganondorfless world and the flashback, that hints the very same thing. And we see in ALttP, that in theory belongs to the Child Timeline that Ganon is sealed in the Seven Sages' Seal. Also, since the seal is created by the goddesses, and they are suppossed to be omnipotent, they can seal him in both timelines.

I find it evident, though I( understand that other might not find it. If you all did, what would be the point on discussing this?

[LionHarted]

Of course, if he's sealed in both timelines, you'd then have to explain why the timelines, both having the same results, are different. There's a big logical problem with having a timeless seal:

1) Since the state of the seal is timeless, if it is in place, it always was in place, and always will be in place.
2) Since the seal is timeless, if it is not in place, is never was in place, and never will be in place.

Basically, you get a paradox. You can't break a timeless seal, because it's timeless; you can't cast a timeless seal, because it's timeless. We see both of these things happen, though.

But, whatever.

Edited by LionHarted, 23 October 2006 - 12:07 PM.

[Arturo]

No, I wouldn't have to explain it. If you create two iron earrings from the very same iron bar, and put one of them in a desert and the other in a rainforest. The first will remain as it is, and the latter will get roasted or whatever it's said. The same goes for the seal. They are created in both timelines at the same *time*. But whatever happens to one doesn't affect to the other. While the Adult Timeline is destined to end bad (Zelda says that peace would reignin Hyrule for a time, and we see Hyrule finishing flooded and destroyed) while the Child Timeline seems to end happily, with the Triforce governing Hyrule and Ganon being destroyed.

[LionHarted]

They are created in both timelines at the same *time*.

That's not what you've been saying. I seem to remember the seal existing in the past as well in the Child timeline, which is not accurate when compared to the description you gave above.

But whatever happens to one doesn't affect to the other. While the Adult Timeline is destined to end bad (Zelda says that peace would reignin Hyrule for a time, and we see Hyrule finishing flooded and destroyed) while the Child Timeline seems to end happily, with the Triforce governing Hyrule and Ganon being destroyed.

Again, if its the same seal, cast at the same time, then why do we wind up with different futures?

[Fyxe]

well, we don't witness it directly. We see Princess Zelda back in the Castle, that is a clear symptom that Ganondorf is not around anymore. We also have the beautiful MM manga that shows a peaceful, Ganondorfless world and the flashback, that hints the very same thing.

Actually, technically, this means nothing. Ganondorf is merely in the Sacred Realm. He built up his strength before attacking, according to ALttP. We don't know how long this took.

And we see in ALttP, that in theory belongs to the Child Timeline

Since when?

Also, since the seal is created by the goddesses, and they are suppossed to be omnipotent, they can seal him in both timelines.

Firstly, that sounds like a cheap cop out to me. Might as well say 'a wizard did it'. But I will also say again... Since when? They called for the help of the goddesses but that doesn't mean they did anything other than give them luck. The Sages were the ones who made the seal. It's in TWW that the gods make a the seal themselves.

I also would like to add, again...

But lets not start a whole dicussion on that. ¬.¬

Lets stick to the topic at least vaguely.

[Arturo]

If TWW is in the Addult Timeline, as said by logic and creators, ALttP has no choice but to be on the Child one. Because of their clear incompatibilities. And in TWW it is said that the Gods themeselves sealed Ganondorf, not the Seven Sages (and I am not speaking about the flood). And is Ganondorf was simply the the SR, his evil would have already started to spread through the temples of Hyrule, as said by Rauru. But Hyrule seems quite peaceful when Link goes back to it in OoT.

Well, anyway, going back to topic....
I don't know what else to say. The connection between ALttP and OoT's map is clear enough, in my opinion...

[Fyxe]

If TWW is in the Addult Timeline, as said by logic and creators,

To be quite frank, the same thing could be said about ALttP.

As for the connections between ALttP's and OoT's map... You do realise that relies on changing the direction of north, right? Meaning that they don't actually add up, because Death Mountain is to the north in ALttP, but it's not to the north in OoT. If you change the direction of the north in ALttP, then places like the Eastern Palace are no longer in the east of Hyrule.