169 replies to this topic

[Duke Serkol]

Similarly, other texts in the library have the Japanese names of the Oracle games written on them, which means they could either generally speak of mysterious seeds, or be the stories of those games handed down through generations.
It's really hard to tell.

[Arturo]

But it's really unlikely that one would call those stories because of the nuts Link is given once. That would be like saying that in ALttP they should call the Seal War "Ocarina of Time".

Edited by Arturo, 27 October 2006 - 12:05 PM.

[Raien]

My point is simple. All in-game evidence is canon but it needs to be taken into its correct context before it can be used. The Triumph Forks reference is canon but it is also an easter egg, just like the appearance of the Oracles themselves.

Edited by jhurvid, 27 October 2006 - 12:14 PM.

[LionHarted]

Similarly, other texts in the library have the Japanese names of the Oracle games written on them, which means they could either generally speak of mysterious seeds, or be the stories of those games handed down through generations.
It's really hard to tell.

Or, alternatively, prophecies of those stories.

[Duke Serkol]

But it's really unlikely that one would call those stories because of the nuts Link is given once. That would be like saying that in ALttP they should call the Seal War "Ocarina of Time".

But the fact it is, they did call them (those games and thus those stories) that in Japan. And I don't really see a problem would the Royal Family call the deeds of the Hero of Time, a legend handed down their line according to MM, as that of The Ocarina of Time.

[CID Farwin]

HOLY CRAP! This exact thing happened in the "Geographical oddity" forum; I make what I believe to be a small afterthought before I leave on band tour, and it gets blown into a huge conversation by the time I get back!

That's because you're thinking of Americans. Japan is the home of Nintendo, Zelda and of course, where the BS-X was released. And actually, most proper Zelda fans know about it.

Excuse me? I hope that by "proper" you mean zelda fans who have been able to own and/or play every single zelda game, because otherwise I find that insulting. I've never even heard about this KnS before, and I've been an extreme zelda fan since I was around four years old.

On a lighter note, I seriously didn't expect my comment about not seeing the master sword after ALttP to turn into a debate about the "validity" of certain Canon.

Quite honestly, I question the "validity" of any Zelda games that aren't "Mainstream."

[Arturo]

Fyxe said that MOST proper Zelda fans know it, but not that only one is a true fan if he/she knows it. And anyway, you know it now.

And what do you mean by mainstream? KnS is a valid sequel to ALÑttP, that was released in a diffrenet game system, the BS-X, and since this system didn't come to the rest of the world, it wasn't released here. But that doesn't make it less canonic. It was developed by Ninteno, unlike those horribles CD-i games

[Raien]

And what do you mean by mainstream? KnS is a valid sequel to ALÑttP, that was released in a diffrenet game system, the BS-X, and since this system didn't come to the rest of the world, it wasn't released here. But that doesn't make it less canonic. It was developed by Ninteno, unlike those horribles CD-i games

One problem that I have with this argument is that the whole "Ancient Stone Tablets" plotline does not plausably fit in the timeline. Why didn't Ganon try to take the Stone Tablets in OoT or FSA if they granted so much power? I don't mind KnS being used to show where the main games go in the series because it provides some interesting evidence, but the actual plotline of the game itself I can't take to be canon events, even if it was made by a canon source.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 November 2006 - 07:02 AM.

[Arturo]

Why didn't Ganon attempt to get the Triforce in FSA? Why didn't Ganon attempt to get the Trident of Power in LoZ?

[Raien]

Why didn't Ganon attempt to get the Triforce in FSA?

Ganon didn't know that it existed or where it was even if it did exist. Remember that after the Great Flood that all real knowledge of the Triforce and the location of the Sacred Realm was wiped out and it's existence was only maintained by the vague inscriptions on Hylian relics (it's all in my "TWW before ALTTP" topic: http://forums.legend...showtopic=10959 ). It was in ALTTP's manual, the SW story, that the Sacred Realm was rediscovered by the thief Ganondorf.

Why didn't Ganon attempt to get the Trident of Power in LoZ?

He did have it in LoZ (remember the BS remake?).

Edited by jhurvid, 01 November 2006 - 11:55 AM.

[LionHarted]

It was in ALTTP's manual, the SW story, that the Sacred Realm was rediscovered by the thief Ganondorf.

It would suffice to say that it was "before ALttP" that the Sacred Realm was "rediscovered by the thief Ganondorf." Remember that you're dealing with an OoT=SW community. You have to argue by those terms. ALttP can operate from an OoT=SW standpoint and still take into account the location being lost in TWW.

[Duke Serkol]

So, jhurvid, you accept the first BS Zelda as canon and not Ancient Stone Tablets?
That's an unusual take on the matter.

[CID Farwin]

And what do you mean by mainstream? KnS is a valid sequel to ALÑttP, that was released in a diffrenet game system, the BS-X, and since this system didn't come to the rest of the world, it wasn't released here. But that doesn't make it less canonic. It was developed by Ninteno, unlike those horribles CD-i games

I didn't know that nintendo made it, but I do now. That's actually the main determination for "Mainstream." I'll still have to actually PLAY the game before I can make too many comments about it.

[Duke Serkol]

Have fun, and let me know if you like the indoors

[Arturo]

I should play it... are the indoors correct for the whole 4 weeks?

[Raien]

So, jhurvid, you accept the first BS Zelda as canon and not Ancient Stone Tablets?
That's an unusual take on the matter.

As I said, I accept any information that the BS Zeldas tell us about the canon games in the timeline but I do not accept the plotlines themselves as canon.

For example, I do not think that the player aiding Link in BS Zelda 1 is canon but the addition of the Trident tells us Ganon was meant to hold it in LoZ. The AST plotline is not canon IMO but BS Zelda 2 also tells us about the "journey of enlightenment" and how BS Zelda 1 occurred centuries later, which undeniably place both ALTTP and LA in respect to LoZ.

Edited by jhurvid, 01 November 2006 - 04:10 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

I should play it... are the indoors correct for the whole 4 weeks?

As far as Euclid and I could figure out. And that's a whole lot.

For example, I do not think that the player aiding Link in BS Zelda 1 is canon but ... BS Zelda 2 also tells us ... how BS Zelda 1 occurred centuries later, which undeniably place both ALTTP and LA in respect to LoZ.

Oh, as I said in another post on this board, that little footnote below Ancient Stone Tablet's story page should not be taken too seriously.
I just wanted to weave the other BS Zelda game into the series without altering LoZ's page, which is why I added it, beginning with the words "Some legends seem to claim" that the Hero of Light showed up later onto help LoZ's Link. The "seem" was me saying "this is something I like to read into BS Zelda1".
I thought it would be obvious that this was off-game speculation since I went as far as saying that while far in Hyrule's future BSLoZ was the Hero of Light's first adventure (basing it on the order in which the games were released), yet also added "but no proof is left to back up such myths" as a way to spell out "this is absolutely not from the game".

By the way, calling it BS Zelda 2 is unadvisable. It'd be better to stick to BSZ KnS or AST, otherwise people may think you mean the non-dumped BSLoZ map 2 or even a non-existant BS-X remake of Zelda2.

And you're right, while the words from LA's manual (journey of enlightnement) are not used in the game (but actually a line which clearly refers to LA itself) AST is definite proof that the programmers DID mean for the Link of LA to be the same as in ALttP.

[Raien]

I thought it would be obvious that this was off-game speculation since I went as far as saying that while far in Hyrule's future BSLoZ was the Hero of Light's first adventure (basing it on the order in which the games were released), yet also added "but no proof is left to back up such myths" as a way to spell out "this is absolutely not from the game".

Or alternatively, it explains why the mainstream games make no reference to the Hero of Light since the plotlines are not meant to be canon.

[Fyxe]

Or alternatively, it explains why the mainstream games make no reference to the Hero of Light since the plotlines are not meant to be canon.

Why would any of the other games make a reference to the 'Hero of Light' *anyway*? What circumstance would require that? Most Zelda games don't make many back references to old plotlines anyway - for instance, there has never been an obvious reference to the Hero of Hyrule (Link from ALttP) and the events of ALttP *except* in KnS and LA, which are direct sequels.

No other games other than LA mention the Wind Fish or Koholint. Termina is has never since been mentioned.

You have to consider the fact that there have never been any games set AFTER KnS since it's release anyway, so why would they ever reference it?

They wouldn't reference it even if they had the opportunity. Why? Because it would just confuse players outside Japan. But that doesn't make it uncanon. It just means we missed out on it. Big whoop. Most gamers outside Japan have missed out on tons of games, that doesn't mean they don't 'count'.

Edited by Fyxe, 02 November 2006 - 08:00 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

Fyxe is right. Only recently Nintendo has started making references to previous games (in the past they just modeled some details of the new game on stuff we learned in the previous one).

Case in point being TWW, which clearly speaks about the Hero of Time and his journeys after OoT. But as said, this is only a recent development, not the way it used to be.

[LionHarted]

Why would any of the other games make a reference to the 'Hero of Light' *anyway*?

ALttP's ending track is titled "Hero of Light", and FSA's Hero is called "Hero of Light" on the back of the box. Not that that matters; I'm just pointing it out.

[CID Farwin]

*Waits patiently for the conversation to include something he knows anything about.*

Does anyone know of a convenient way for me to get this KnS game? I might be able to beat it in enough time to contribute to this conversation in a more constructive way.

Edited by CID Farwin, 02 November 2006 - 07:43 PM.

[Fyxe]

http://www.bszelda.zeldalegends.net/

All you need will be there. Hosted on Zelda Legends itself, no less. Yays.

[CID Farwin]

I APPRECIATE YOU!

Seriously, thank's a bundle!

[Fyxe]

It's, well, Duke Serkol's site, so thank him. And aaaall the other people who have helped him fill it with stuff.

[Duke Serkol]

I'm interested in this mention of the title Hero of Light on the back of FSA's box (I don't think it is on mine, the European one, could be wrong though)

Still, I don't think that Link is actually Hero of Light, I believe the term is exclusively used to award the most likeable player in a 3/4 players session (just as the least liked gets labeled Hero of Darkness... surely we can't assume that's the way one of the Links actually goes down in legends).

[Raien]

One quick reason why box covers should not be counted as canon.

The back of my LA: DX box (UK) states quite clearly that Link is the Hero from Ocarina of Time.

How can we trust box covers for timeline information when they make such obvious mistakes as this? They are obvously not written by anyone involved in the development of the games.

Edited by jhurvid, 03 November 2006 - 06:06 AM.

[Duke Serkol]

I believe we can trust the Japanese ones.

[Raien]

I believe we can trust the Japanese ones.

The problem is that there is no way of telling who writes the game boxes. It doesn't appear to be anyone within the development/translation teams themselves because they don't make stupid mistakes (except when NOA added all that stuff to ALTTP).

The fact that LA's instruction manual still refers to concepts such as "the journey of enlightenment" that appeared in a Japan-only game tells us in general that the manuals at least were accurately written.

[LionHarted]

The fact that LA's instruction manual still refers to concepts such as "the journey of enlightenment" that appeared in a Japan-only game tells us in general that the manuals at least were accurately written.

The "journey of enlightenment" was a legacy term added to a Japanese-only game. The BS-X games were released in 1997, long after LA.