169 replies to this topic

[Fyxe]

I doubt PH will clarify anything. It's effectively a side-quest like Majora's Mask, I expect. Only the major console games make large differences to the series.

TP is already known to have references to the Forest Temple, things like that. It might have foreshadowing to ALttP, the Twilight Realm may have a connection to the Dark World, and the way it's taking over the world looks similar to FSA. The flood may or may not be foreshadowed.

Already that would be four possibly major connections to some of the largest games in the series.

The chances are, it'll just confuse the heck out of everything.

Edited by Fyxe, 07 September 2006 - 06:02 PM.

[Jumbie]

what could also happen is hyrule being splitt into two and the sacred realm remaining with just one time line:"imagine a line,a time line for that matter,it turns into two due to links travel,but betwen those two time lines there only exists one for the sacred realm,now since the sacred realm presents itself from a totaly diferent plane(or dimension if you prefer) from hyrule it has a time line of its own(speculation of course).Imagine two time lines and one in the midle of the two,featuring 3 time lines,making only one triforce and Ganon existence,and since that timeline is in the midle of the two,Ganon itself could have traveled throught both times to create its caos"

You might be surprised, but this has been a quite well-known theory for some time now, usually referred to by the term 'timeless/atemporal Sacred Realm'. I would be able to provide evidence for this being true, but there's in fact tons of contradictions that would come from assuming it.
The chaos as you say would be unbelievably bad. Imagine Ganon breaking out of the Realm - so he has to appear at the same time in ALttP and in the time before the Great Flood! But it isn't so, since Ganon never even leaves the Dark World in ALttP, thus it's impossible for Ganon to appear in TWW's timeline. No, the atemporal Realm theory is absolutely fatal.

I doubt PH will clarify anything. It's effectively a side-quest like Majora's Mask, I expect. Only the major console games make large differences to the series.

That's certainly so. Indeed I would be surprised if PH actually ended showing a new land being explicitly named Hyrule, but *if* it happened it would kill off the Split Timeline for me, and if it doesn't happen it will prove the Split Timeline for me. Either way, there is bound to come some clarification with PH. I mean, if the creators ever wanted to show that a New Hyrule came to exist, they'd certainly take their chance in PH, not in yet another future game.

TP is already known to have references to the Forest Temple, things like that.

..Which cannot possibly be the same one as in OoT, or can it? In TWW we had a forest dungeon as well, and the round doors of both are certainly a thing which rather connects TP and TWW than TP and OoT. Howsoever, we don't even know yet if Forest Temple will be the actual name. I could well imagine that it will be the "Monkey Temple", or it could include the name of the new race of forest people who are seen inside it.

It might have foreshadowing to ALttP, the Twilight Realm may have a connection to the Dark World, and the way it's taking over the world looks similar to FSA. The flood may or may not be foreshadowed.

This could be, yes, and it would really mess up things for me personally. If they decided with TP to put ALttP in between OoT and TWW, and thus do away with all Split Timeline theories, that would be okay for me though. Still I have the feeling that the Twilight will resemble the Dark World only because of the similar concept, and not storyline related. After all, such a thing has before been the case more often than storyline connections.

The chances are, it'll just confuse the heck out of everything.

It surely will, since it's bound to spice up the dull picture of Hyrule that TWW gave with all the unfamiliar and wonderful elements that can be seen in TP's trailers and screenshots. Then adding the actual plot to that, and it will once again bring up more questions than it can answer.

Edited by Jumbie, 07 September 2006 - 06:35 PM.

[Alardonin]

You might be surprised, but this has been a quite well-known theory for some time now, usually referred to by the term 'timeless/atemporal Sacred Realm'. I would be able to provide evidence for this being true, but there's in fact tons of contradictions that would come from assuming it.
The chaos as you say would be unbelievably bad. Imagine Ganon breaking out of the Realm - so he has to appear at the same time in ALttP and in the time before the Great Flood! But it isn't so, since Ganon never even leaves the Dark World in ALttP, thus it's impossible for Ganon to appear in TWW's timeline. No, the atemporal Realm theory is absolutely fatal.

Not really surprised,who really wouldnt think of this,also didnt know the fans had made such names to the split timeline theories.Sorry about that,its not that i would find that really important,but i really dont know what has been discussed in this forums since it was created,or the discussions that have been made here from the fans to make some general agreement in the timeline of the series.And yes i have to agree that the theory itself can be fatal.

[CID Farwin]

There is an argument here that isn't about the sleeping Zelda, at least not mainly, and is mainly my reason for posting. I apologise for the length of this post, but I feel that what I have said needed to be said. I've even edited it down to save space.

these are but a few of my points.

Occam's Razor:
for those of you that haven't heard of it, here's what it is. "All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct." They used occam's Razor to prove that copernicus, galileo, and newton were right about planetary movement. IT CAN BE USED HERE! I don't know about anybody else, but to me two timelines where you have to place games is much more confusing than one, which is hard enough by itself!

Look to the future:
Has it occured to anyone that this video game series is still open? That it could be INTENTIONALLY open?! that it might be on purpose that it would take at least two games to make satisfying explanations of what we already have?

it is foolhardy to try and say that the blue sword or the magic sword of LoZ are the master sword or the
four swords-whatever-from the minish cap. You can not say that it was a sword that didn't exist. it's like if nintendo said in 1993 that LA went after the Oracle series,(which it might not)

Think of this reasonably:
Think of what we call "canon." I will go so far as to seperate it into two categories:near-canon and a
bsolute canon. LoZ, AoL, and TWW are all examples of near-canon. LoZ and AoL were very early games. I hope I don't offend anyone, but games of this time period were not well made. The plots were very much thrown together and were basically just there to make sense of what you were playing. A lot of them even seem to have very similar, if not the same basic plot. I can not in my right mind use the first two Zeldas as absolute canon any more than I can TWW(my utmost apologies to its fans; I really like WW.) the plots of said games are simply too obscure. Even if Tww's plot is barely so. I think that these reasons are, or are at least part of why the developers of zelda have, it seems, tried to ignore these problems entirely.

I have seen very strong opinions from 4 or 5 people that are arguing their case, and some points are similar, but the opposing sites do not entirely contradict. it's funny because I have seen this exact thing happen multiple times, although with different people and about different points, but it is all essentially the same every time people who know a lot about a particular subject get talking.

There is not enough proof to prove or disprove ANY of these stronger arguments, They're good arguments. I have my theories having played the zelda series and so does everybody else who has played at least 2 games that aren't in definite series(e.g.LoZ-AoL). My ideas and opinions on the Zelda timeline have changed dramatically and constantly over the years. usually with each coming game.

as for the sleeping zelda: I agree with SteveT; does the sleeping Zelda really have to be another Zelda?

anyway, MY timeline, from my knowledge and logic:
(TMC) OoT/MM -> TP -> Ww ->-> ALttP -> (Oracle series) -> LA ->->->-> LoZ/AoL
games in parenthases COULD go where I have them, which is in my mind the most logical place for them. if there are any other games, I have not played them. and to my knowledge are floaters, and could easily be put in many places.

[Arturo]

Occam's Razor:
for those of you that haven't heard of it, here's what it is. "All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct." They used occam's Razor to prove that copernicus, galileo, and newton were right about planetary movement. IT CAN BE USED HERE! I don't know about anybody else, but to me two timelines where you have to place games is much more confusing than one, which is hard enough by itself!

The problem is that you haven't noticed a few things:
-First: Splitting time is a consequence of traveling to the past, according to Hawking,(something he considers impossible)
-Second: The Ending of OoT clearly implies a Split Timeline, as well as the whole game itself.
-Third: If you accept that OoT is the Seal/Imprisoning War, something deduced by using Occam's Razor, there is no way of ALttP and TWW to be in the same Timeline, since in ALttP Ganon tries to break the Sages' Seal and is defeated by Link, while in TWW, the Sages' Seal is already broken and Ganon has attacked Hyrule.
-Fourth: If you read that infamous interview, it doesn't matter which translation you use, the creators (Aonuma and Miyamoto) have implied CLEARLY a Split Timeline.

Look to the future:
Has it occured to anyone that this video game series is still open? That it could be INTENTIONALLY open?! that it might be on purpose that it would take at least two games to make satisfying explanations of what we already have?

Of course we know it's open. But knowing what Nintendo has done until now, I find seriously improbable that TP, PH or other game will "fix" the Timeline. Mainly because NoJ tends to forget about older games. Starting with Sleeping Zelda.

it is foolhardy to try and say that the blue sword or the magic sword of LoZ are the master sword or the
four swords-whatever-from the minish cap. You can not say that it was a sword that didn't exist. it's like if nintendo said in 1993 that LA went after the Oracle series,(which it might not)

It didn't exist by 1987, but it does in 2006. You are contradicting yourself. If we find a White Sword in LoZ and a White Sword in TMC, is there any reason to say they aren't the same? Canon changes with time, and while they didn't think of Minish when they created LoZ, when they created them on TMC, it's clear that they also existed in LoZ, mainly because of the Rupee thing.

Think of this reasonably:
Think of what we call "canon." I will go so far as to seperate it into two categories:near-canon and a
bsolute canon. LoZ, AoL, and TWW are all examples of near-canon. LoZ and AoL were very early games. I hope I don't offend anyone, but games of this time period were not well made. The plots were very much thrown together and were basically just there to make sense of what you were playing. A lot of them even seem to have very similar, if not the same basic plot. I can not in my right mind use the first two Zeldas as absolute canon any more than I can TWW(my utmost apologies to its fans; I really like WW.) the plots of said games are simply too obscure. Even if Tww's plot is barely so. I think that these reasons are, or are at least part of why the developers of zelda have, it seems, tried to ignore these problems entirely.

I don't understand your logic here. How is TWW's plot obscure? The plot is pretty clear. I can tell you of more games with obscure plots: OoX, FS, FSA... But TWW.... no way.

I have seen very strong opinions from 4 or 5 people that are arguing their case, and some points are similar, but the opposing sites do not entirely contradict. it's funny because I have seen this exact thing happen multiple times, although with different people and about different points, but it is all essentially the same every time people who know a lot about a particular subject get talking.

Is there anything that makes as different to the rest of humans? The answer is no.

as for the sleeping zelda: I agree with SteveT; does the sleeping Zelda really have to be another Zelda?

Did you read my article, by chance? It wasn't about WHO the Sleeping Zelda was, but about WHEN she lived. I don't think SZ has to be anyone else apart from SZ, and the article wasn't about that.

anyway, MY timeline, from my knowledge and logic:
(TMC) OoT/MM -> TP -> Ww ->-> ALttP -> (Oracle series) -> LA ->->->-> LoZ/AoL
games in parenthases COULD go where I have them, which is in my mind the most logical place for them. if there are any other games, I have not played them. and to my knowledge are floaters, and could easily be put in many places.

The only problem of your timeline is that it forces the SW to be something different to OoT, something absolutely illogical.


Anyway, welcome to LA

Don't think I am like this everyday, it's just I didn't want this topic to turn into something like this, arguing about Split and SW.

[jman]

Arturo, as I have stated before, I don't agree with your entire theory, but I won't go into that. But I do agree with you on the split timeline. If WW is after OOT and these two games are definately related (as OOT and ALTTP are), then I don't see of accomodating WW and ALTTP in the same timeline. One could challenge this if OOT wasn't the imprisoning war. However, somebody would have trouble justifying this.

As to the indentity of the sleeping Zelda, I don't think Nintendo is ever going to give us an answer. My thoughts were that the 'wizard' in question who put her to sleep may have been Vaati, since he has been appearing in new Zelda games. Ganon could be the wizard, but at the time of AOL, wouldn't this have been stated since Ganon was the only villain?

Having said that nintendo won't give us the answers, it doesn't mean I will stop looking for them in my own realm. What one needs to consider is not who Sleeping Zelda is, but 'when'. This maybe doubling up on what Arturo said (if it does my apologies) but the trfiroce has been united before AOL. If somebody had the triforce before, would they have not used it to wake up sleeping zelda then? According to me, the last time the triforce was united was in ALTTP (and possibly still in the oracles if they come between ALTTP and LOZ). So it does seem logical that the King who hid the TOC hid it after ALTTP. Now Arturo made a pretty good point about the prince saying that all princesses shall be named Zelda due to the tragedy of the event. but one has to consider, when Nintendo made LOZ and AOL, maybe they planned to make more games that were based after those events, but then after ALTTP - which went more into how Hyrule was created - they did the opposite and the events of ALTTP made a prime opening to make OOT(due to the imprisoning war) and so forth.

Edited by jman, 19 September 2006 - 04:36 AM.

[Arturo]

I am really not sure on what you don't agree with my article. If it's reincarnation, you can visit FSA's thread, where we have been discussing this topic. About the wizard.... I have no idea. I will just leave it as a mistery

[CID Farwin]

I do not take offence to being corrected. In fact, I like it. To be honest, I'm even a little embarrased about my previous post. I also apologise for my ignorance on a few topics. I recently watched the intro to ALttp and have done some thinking, and yes, there has to be a split timeline! If only I had done this before my post, but alas, I must just be satisfied with my foot in my mouth. I'll just try to clairify a few things...

About TWW, I didn't mean that it was obscure. I guess what I meant was that it gets thin at many places. There are a few things that I don't really like, but for the record: TWW ROCKS!

It didn't exist by 1987, but it does in 2006. You are contradicting yourself. If we find a White Sword in LoZ and a White Sword in TMC, is there any reason to say they aren't the same? Canon changes with time, and while they didn't think of Minish when they created LoZ, when they created them on TMC, it's clear that they also existed in LoZ, mainly because of the Rupee thing.

I am VERY sorry. I didn't realize that there WAS a white sword in TMC. I must have missed it or something. keep in mind I only played it for like two days, and there's a lot I don't remember about it. I have no doubt that they are the same sword.

What I was trying to say was specifically reffering to the non-existent link between the swords of LoZ and the master sword, which some people have tried to make.

As for the Sleeping Zelda...

There are ages of hyrule. Mostly due to the fact that nintendo has only worked on a few games at a time at different points on the timeline. I feel that because LoZ and AoL are pretty seperate from the other games, that the AoL backstory, including the Sleeping Zelda, is exclusive to that age.

[Ogmios22188]

One thing I never understood about The Legend of Zelda and The Adventure of Link. In the former, there's a Princess Zelda, right? In the latter, there's a sleeping princess who's awoken. But isn't the current Princess Zelda still around when you wake up the one from the past? Is that how it works?

[Jumbie]

One thing I never understood about The Legend of Zelda and The Adventure of Link. In the former, there's a Princess Zelda, right? In the latter, there's a sleeping princess who's awoken. But isn't the current Princess Zelda still around when you wake up the one from the past? Is that how it works?

That's right, apparently.. Although AoL's manual doesn't mention the present-day Zelda from LoZ, only the "first generation Zelda" who is the sleeping princess, it wouldn't make any sense for the LoZ Zelda to die before AoL or something else.
A solution we recently found to this problem is that both Zeldas might be one half of the same soul, incarnated in two separate bodies, a concept that's based on the Japanese Shinentai myth. The theory is that when the Sleeping Zelda is awoken, she later reunites with the LoZ Zelda to one person, just like the four Links did in Four Swords.
A strange thing is that Link kisses the Sleeping Zelda, as if he just forgot about the LoZ Zelda. I mean, why would an age-old princess he's never seen before be more interesting to him than a young girl of his age that he rescued himself only a couple of years ago? I think this would make more sense if both Zeldas reunited to one again.

[Duke Serkol]

I just tried looking for Shinentai on yahoo, because I wanted to learn more, but I found nothing about the soul splitting, only it lingering around because of something it still needs to do, forming a sorta real body to this purpose.

Anybody has a link to some page where I can read about the soul splitting part?

[Jumbie]

I just tried looking for Shinentai on yahoo, because I wanted to learn more, but I found nothing about the soul splitting, only it lingering around because of something it still needs to do, forming a sorta real body to this purpose.
Anybody has a link to some page where I can read about the soul splitting part?

Well that's right, it's quite hard to find something about Shinentai on the net. MikePetersSucks knows best about it, I guess. From what he told, I think both dead people and people who lost consciousness (the Sleeping Zelda) can manifest themselves in different bodies, and that's where it ties in with AoL.

[MikePetersSucks]

I read about it in a book my grandma owns. While it's true that it's typically a soul manifesting a physical form, it's typically a manifested will to live instead of a manifested person, resulting from someone wanting to continue living, but not quite dead. Ala a comatose person who splits off a part of himself, but a part of himself must remain for his body to live. If he removes his full soul, he'll die and be forced into Afterlife.

[Arturo]

I read about it in a book my grandma owns. While it's true that it's typically a soul manifesting a physical form, it's typically a manifested will to live instead of a manifested person, resulting from someone wanting to continue living, but not quite dead. Ala a comatose person who splits off a part of himself, but a part of himself must remain for his body to live. If he removes his full soul, he'll die and be forced into Afterlife.

I am very interested in Shinentai... Could you give more information, please?

[Duke Serkol]

I know that's exactly what happened to Morrigan, but I didn't realize it was not something Capcom had come up with

[Fyxe]

Game designers being entirely original? Surely not. XP

Actually, I jest, game design is one of, if not THE most original forms of media. Despite what all the FPS clones would have you believe. Ignore them.

[Duke Serkol]

I concur. Just consider the kind of background the made for Megaman Zero. Too bad you can only find out by purchasing the Japanese soundtrack CD for the third game

[MikePetersSucks]

Er...I just gave up all the info that's off the top of my head, so just ask specific questions if you want to know more about the Shinentai/Yurei/etc. subject, and I'll look it up.

[Duke Serkol]

Uhm, here's one: are there any popular Jpanese myths/stories featuring this splitting of the soul piece of folklore?

[Showsni]

The fairytale of the person who could remove their heart or soul and thus live indefinitely is pretty common... But why would you keep it in a duck?

[Jumbie]

The fairytale of the person who could remove their heart or soul and thus live indefinitely is pretty common... But why would you keep it in a duck?

Hey, this actually sounds much like in the very first Paper Mario! If you remember, that boss enemy, Tubba Blubba or something, who kept his heart sealed away on the bottom of a well, so that he was invulnerable to Mario's attacks.. Until you got down the well and did something with the heart... which I have forgotten..

[Duke Serkol]

Kill it obviously. Except it bouncess off to reunite with its owner.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 03 October 2006 - 04:43 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, but that's an entirely different subject, which was source material for the whole Lich thing from DnD. That's splitting of the body though, and not of the soul.

[Jumbie]

Yea, but that's an entirely different subject, which was source material for the whole Lich thing from DnD. That's splitting of the body though, and not of the soul.

I know, it has nothing to do with Sleeping Zelda, but what Showsni said just reminded me of Paper Mario, so I had to post that

[Showsni]

Whilst we're talking about Sleeping Zelda, let's discuss the wizard. We know next to nothg about him. He shows up, and tells the prince that his sister is concealing information about the triforce. The prince believes him, and goes off to question his sister. She refuses to speak, so the prince gets angry. Then the wizard casts a spell which kills himself and puts the princess to sleep for (supposedly) ever.

What? Why does he do this? Assumedly, he wants in on the triforce. So he kills himself and stops the only source of information from being able to tell what she knows? That doesn't make any sense. Did his spell go wrong, or does he have some other motive? Or perhaps he's just really impetuous.

The prince takes his side over his sister's, until he starts his spell. Had he charmed the prince, or did the prince just not like Zelda much anyway? If the king had told her where the triforce was, we can postulate that she was their father's favourite, so maybe he felt jealous... Though he is very remorseful after the event.

Assuming the wizard wasn't an idiot, he must have had a reason for wanting Zelda asleep. But if he wanted to stop her telling about the triforce, why did he bring up the fact that she knew something in the first palce? And how does he know that she knows something - did she really know anything, or was that just a lie?

[Duke Serkol]

Yea, but that's an entirely different subject, which was source material for the whole Lich thing from DnD. That's splitting of the body though, and not of the soul.

Yep.

So, can you tell us of any popular Japanese myths/stories featuring the splitting of the soul? I'd still like to know some

[MikePetersSucks]

There's not that many stories about it. It's just a superstition to explain doppleganger phenomena.

As for the Wizard, it's just a typical wizard for the "Wizard did it" scenario.

[Arturo]

But it's not sure that the wizard died. In the Japanese version it says:
"It is said that at the same time, the magician also fell at that place, dead. "

so it seems that Impa wasn't sure of that point.

[jman]

Nobody seems to really know what happened for sure in regards to whether the Wizard died. Maybe he did or maybe he was fataly wounded but then gathered his strength back up. If he actually was alive, then wouldn't he have been mentioned again, somewhere in the Zelda games?

Showsni, in regards to why the wizard put Zelda to sleep it could be for a number of reasons. Perhaps the wizard spied on Zelda by using magic (his crystal ball or whatever) and so he knew she was aware of the TOC(triforce of courage), or when the King told Zelda the wizard was watching/spying, but didn't get the whereabouts. When Zelda refused to tell the Prince or himself anything as to the actual location the Prince got mad and the box art shows him holding a whip ready to hit Zelda. But if the Prince was going to hit Zelda, why would the wizard cast a spell on her? Either he was so consumed with rage, knowing she wouldn't tell that he snapped, or the story was a farse. Personally I believe that Zelda did know something and this is why:
Let's seriously consider this for a moment, 1) why would he put her to sleep and not just kill her? 2) Why would he cast a spell if it would cause him to die?
1) He could have tried to put her to sleep for a number of reasons, primarily he could have taken her somewhere else out of sight, when she was asleep and then woken her up and menaced her even harder than before. He could have also kept her asleep, only to use more magic on her to find the location of the TOC, literally by making her sleep-walk if she was under hypnosis. Secondly, he may have had some vague idea where the TOC was and thus thought that since he had an edge over the Prince, he would eliminate Zelda incase she decided to tell the Prince what had happened to the TOC at a later time. Or he could have put her to sleep and taken her body for ransom and blackmailed the Prince into finding him the triforce to exchange for Zelda.
2) I don't believe he died by casting the spell, that would be utterly stupid of him, and if he was doing it to prevent the prince from having it, he could simply have cast the spell on the Prince. The manual says that he fought off the Prince and continued chanting, then when the spell was chanted and Zelda was put to sleep, he died. I believe the wizard died because he had to fight the Prince off while chanting the spell. It doesn't say that the Prince killed him because he was weakened from the spell, so my best guess is that he died because of using his powers for both things at once, which sufficiently weakened him.
{
NOTE: Interestingly, If you look at the AOL manual on p7 it appears that the wizard is literally coming out of the Prince's shadow. In OOT didn't Impa say that the Sheikah 'lived in the Hylians' shadows' or something like that? Maybe he was a Sheikah who was evil, and was monitoring the Royal family.}

Here is what I think. We know that prior to these events, the TOC was hidden by the king and that he left the TOW and TOP in the kingdom which means that the Prince either inherited both of those, or one of them ('in part' could mean any of those things, either way he couldn't inherit TOC). My theory is that the events explained about the confrontation with the wizard was most likely the Prince's internal struggle. Not just because in the art the wizard is clearly a part of the Prince's shadow (p7 of the AOL manual), or because on p8 it doesnt show the Prince and wizard fighting but simply the wizard casting the spell, but think very carefully... The Prince has the TOW and TOP, he only inherits Power and/or wisdom (most likely both) because he doesn't fit the criteria, he finds out or believes that Zelda knows something, he threatens her, but then like Ganondorf the power corrupts him and takes over. Maybe he struggles to stop himself, or splits into two beings (which has happened in many shows) but the evil is too strong. He proclaims all princesses be named Zelda because he feels so responsible for this catastrophe. He then stops using the TOP and TOW and leaves it in the kingdom for safety or better days or something. The triforce may have told this to the deceased king which is why he knew to seal the TOC away. If this occured, it would mean that the triforce(TOW and TOP) was used to put Zelda to sleep, and would make sense as to why only something equally or more powerful (whole triforce) would be able to break the spell.

Edited by jman, 10 October 2006 - 07:53 AM.

[Jumbie]

Another thing: It's almost certain that ALttP took heavy inspiration from AoL's backstory, in regards to Agahnim and the wizard. ALttP might have even been planned as a prequel to LoZ+AoL that would've explained AoL's backstory, just like OoT did for ALttP. How wonderful that could've been, don't you think?