73 replies to this topic

[Hylian Dan]

At the top of the Stone Tower, there is a statue of a hand that points to the sky. Every time I looked at it I wondered why it was there. When I was playing that part of the game last night, I looked at the architexture at the entrance to the temple and I noticed that the tower next to the hand looked very phallic... then I understood.

And now, I think I've solved a large part of the mystery of Majora's Mask.

The Stone Tower is the Terminian equivalent of the Tower of Babel. The story of the Tower of Babel tells of mankind's attempt to defy God by building a tower that would reach the heavens. God thwarted their plans by making every man speak a different language. Unable to communicate, the men could not continue building the tower.

How does this apply to the Stone Tower? That tower was also built to defy the gods. Many people have mentioned that the Triforce can be seen on the statues leading to Ikana and on the blocks Link crosses to reach the top of the Tower. Nintendo did not put the Triforce there accidentally, or as an Easter egg. The Triforce is placed on the end of the tongue of the statue, and the statue uses its tongue to cover its crotch. Clearly the architects of those obscene statues were aware of the Triforce's existence and were mocking the three goddesses.

The hand at the top of the Stone Tower is pointing at the goddesses, and the phallic tower next to it is saying "Screw you." The Stone Tower itself resembles a giant phallus, sticking out of the earth and pointing towards the heavens to provoke the goddesses.

The ancient ones who built the Stone Tower were blaspheming the goddesses of the Triforce. Their plan seems to have been to open a portal in the sky that would lead them to heaven. But the goddesses would not allow this to happen, and they would not let this evil go unpunished. So they flipped the universe upside down.

The architects opened the portal, but because everything had been reversed it led them to hell. And in hell there was a being that had been sealed away during a previous age, a being that had attempted to destroy the world. The architects found the mask of the demon and brought it with them. And so the goddesses punished the builders of the Stone Tower by releasing Majora into their world. That world was then called Termina because it was doomed to end. The men who had found the mask honored it by placing symbols of it in all the temples, as well as in the realm where they had found it.

(Note: By hell, I am referring to the desert where Twinmold lurks. To support this theory, there are several hints in the game that the goddesses released Majora into Termina. The owl told Link that the world was destined to fade. Why should that world have such a dark fate? It's because of the horrible blasphemy of the Stone Tower. How is the world going to fade? Majora is going to destroy it. When the moon is gone, an enormous rainbow appears over Termina, and it seemed to be a hint that the goddesses had played some role in the story.)

Ages later, the Skull Kid stole the mask and the demon finally had a weak host it could use as a puppet. As Majora gained strength, it summoned the moon to come crashing into Termina, as it was the fate of that world to be destroyed. But then a child came into that doomed world, a child who was a member of the race that had been blessed by the goddesses, a child who had carried a piece of the sacred Triforce. That child was Link, and in three days he conquered the devil and saved the world. It should be noted that Link had entered a portal in the sky as he did this; was that the realm the ancient ones had tried to reach? As the moon was cast back into the heavens, the goddesses left behind a rainbow as a promise that they would not again seek to destroy Termina, as God had left a rainbow in the sky as a covenant with Noah after flooding the world.

Interestingly enough, though the goddesses spared Termina, they did send a flood to wipe out Hyrule.

After reading part of this thread at IGN, I wanted to add this: In the Stone Tower Temple Link found the Giant's Mask, which was a sort of tranformation mask. Each transformation mask contained a being's essence. Was there, at one point, a fifth Giant? Were there two Giants in the East, and was one of them sealed away? The Giant's Mask closely resembles the mask of the Garo Master. Perhaps one Giant was the patriarch of the Garos and the other the patriarch of the Ikanans, and the ancient conflict was the source of the tensions that led to the war that destroyed Ikana.


So, what do you think? Does this theory seem too much like fan-fiction, or do you think that the evidence in the game supports it? Is this the most logical explanation to the ambiguous story of MM?

Edited by Hylian Dan, 21 August 2006 - 08:05 PM.

[Mad Scrub]

It's fan fiction but I like it. It's very imaginative.

[Fyxe]

I like the idea but I think you're straying a bit far with the phallic imagery thing. Nintendo aren't really the type to go in for that sort of thing. And then, after a good start, you do really start to stray into definite fanfiction realms. The desert is just a desert, really, it's Termina's equivilent of the Haunted Wasteland rather than being some other dimension. A lot of the other things you've said is simply speculation based on the fact that it's a weird tower.

Also, the question is whether the designers ever thought it through much more than 'hey, lets have a cool tower-type dungeon that messes around with gravity'.

You also have forgotten the stated in-game purpose of the tower, which is to hold the spirits.

Also, Majora's Mask didn't actually necessarily come from Termina. The Mask Salesman was in the Lost Woods when he lost it and had to come to Termina to retrieve it.

[Hylian]

No offence, but that sound like rambling to me. How can you compare something that isn't real to an ancient tower that is real? I don't see how your theory can be plausible...sorry.

Edited by Hylian, 21 August 2006 - 09:38 PM.

[Duke Serkol]

The Mask Salesman was in the Lost Woods when he lost it and had to come to Termina to retrieve it.

I'd say "had to come, or return, to Termina". At least, I was never able to determine if the Mask Salesman in MM is the same as in OoT or his Terminian counterpart.

[Showsni]

I'd say "had to come, or return, to Termina". At least, I was never able to determine if the Mask Salesman in MM is the same as in OoT or his Terminian counterpart.

The children in the moon make me think there's a whole weird race of mask salesmen. They look as though without their masks they'd be identical to him, they want your masks (to set up shop?), they ask how to make peple happy (and the OoT HMS's goal was to spread happiness...) and they ask if you too will be a mask salesman now that you're here.

[Hylian]

Interesting connection, Showsni.

[Hylian Dan]

I like the idea but I think you're straying a bit far with the phallic imagery thing. Nintendo aren't really the type to go in for that sort of thing.

That's what happens when you have to analyze "The Turn of the Screw" for english class. Nevertheless, I am convinced that the pillars around the entrance to the temple were meant to be phallices. It isn't unlike Nintendo to put sexual subtext here and there. For instance, in Super Mario Sunshine Bowser Jr. insisted Peach was his mom, and in Paper Mario 2 Peach walked around naked while invisible. In OoT, the Poe vendor said that if he were as handsome as Link, he'd get into another type of business. Nabooru made a promise to Young Link that was probably empty, but when Link grew up Nabooru mentioned she should have kept her end of the deal. In MM rumors were flying around that Kafei had run off with Cremia. And don't forget that to enter the Stone Tower you had to walk up a giant statue's tongue, which was rolled out between its legs. So Nintendo has made at least some veiled references to the subject of sex. Plus, why else would that hand in the Stone Tower be there?

Taking into account both the statues mocking the Triforce and the phallus next to the hand pointing upwards, it's clear that the architects of the Stone Tower were being deliberately blasphemous. I had forgotten what Igos du Ikana had said of the tower, but that still doesn't make those obscene designs irrelevant or dismissable.

Another important point is that the owl tells Link that Termina is destined to fade. The land was named Termina long before the Skull Kid found Majora's Mask. This information ties in perfectly with the theory that the goddesses of the Triforce were offended by the Stone Tower. Is it illogical to assume that the goddesses orchestrated Majora's escape into Termina?

Also, Majora's Mask didn't actually necessarily come from Termina. The Mask Salesman was in the Lost Woods when he lost it and had to come to Termina to retrieve it.

I know this is a possibility, but if Majora's Mask hadn't been in Termina before, why was its image plastered on blocks and pedestals throughout Termina? Additionally, the concept of a mask containing the spirit of a demon fits into Termina's culture and mythology very well, but it would be out of place in any of the other realms we are familiar with. I'd say there's a much greater likelihood that Majora's Mask had played a role in Termina's history than the possibility that it had nothing to do with that world until the events of the game.

The desert is just a desert, really, it's Termina's equivilent of the Haunted Wasteland rather than being some other dimension.

Twinmold's lair is part of another dimension. While Link is in Termina, there are three different dimensions he travels to: the surreal areas where he meets the Giants, the arena where he fights Twinmold, and the field with the single tree at its center. It's certainly possible that there's a heaven/hell/purgatory symbolism going on there. It's also logical to assume that the architects of the Stone Tower found that desert realm. It makes less sense to accept the notion that they built the tower but weren't interested in the portal it brought them to.

So if it can be accepted that those ancient people found that desert, the next question is why do the monuments in that desert display the image of Majora's Mask? Either those images are meaningless decorations, or the ancient Terminians found the mask in that desert.

This theory is still consistent with the backstory we are given for the mask. According to legend, the mask was sealed away by an ancient tribe that feared it would bring catastrophe. The legend doesn't explain how the mask broke free of the seal, but my theory does so while remaining grounded in the evidence the game presents.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

That doesn't explain why Termina was doomed. Ikana seemed to be a completely different country with its own king, completely separate (politically, anyway) from the rest of Termina.

And the Ikanans were already gone and dusted anyway.

Besides, why would the Goddesses use an evil mask to destroy Termina?

[Fyxe]

It isn't unlike Nintendo to put sexual subtext here and there. For instance, in Super Mario Sunshine Bowser Jr. insisted Peach was his mom, and in Paper Mario 2 Peach walked around naked while invisible.

Uh, that's hardly the same as phallic imagery. It's barely 'sexual subtext' at all.

In OoT, the Poe vendor said that if he were as handsome as Link, he'd get into another type of business. Nabooru made a promise to Young Link that was probably empty, but when Link grew up Nabooru mentioned she should have kept her end of the deal.

Again, that's hardly phallic imagery. Nabooru was certainly offering a kiss, nothing more, and as for the Poe guy, well he's a slimy git anyway, but that's more to do with the fact that he's a bizarre being and is stuck doing the dirty job of selling Poes. If he was better looking he could get a more normal job.

In MM rumors were flying around that Kafei had run off with Cremia.

So? Again, it's hardly overt sexual imagery.

And don't forget that to enter the Stone Tower you had to walk up a giant statue's tongue, which was rolled out between its legs.

What on Earth are you talking about?

Plus, why else would that hand in the Stone Tower be there?

What's a pointing hand got to do with sex?

the phallus next to the hand pointing upwards,

My god, look, just call yourself Freud and be done with it. Shock horror, not EVERYTHING pointy is intended to be a phallus. You might as well argue that the Biggoron's Sword is one giant phallus and the fact that you can use it againt Ganon in the final battle implies a deep homosexual desire within Link towards his nemesis. Which is just sodding nuts.

Another important point is that the owl tells Link that Termina is destined to fade. The land was named Termina long before the Skull Kid found Majora's Mask. This information ties in perfectly with the theory that the goddesses of the Triforce were offended by the Stone Tower. Is it illogical to assume that the goddesses orchestrated Majora's escape into Termina?

I think the bigger issue is 'what is Majora' in the first place. Termina is a prophetic name. The Japanese love to give things appropriate names. Characters are commonly given names that mean the same thing as their personalities. The fact that Termina is called Termina doesn't imply anything else other than the fact that Nintendo thought it sounded nice and appropriate.

I'd say there's a much greater likelihood that Majora's Mask had played a role in Termina's history than the possibility that it had nothing to do with that world until the events of the game.

That's probably true, yes, but we just shouldn't assume it's genesis was in Termina.

Twinmold's lair is part of another dimension.

You can't say this without knowing. It's perfectly possible for a large desert to be beyond Ikana Canyon and the Stone Tower. In fact I would be surprised if there wasn't one, given the overall desolate feel.

But even if it was a seperate dimension, it's probably more to do with the spirits (like the Haunted Wasteland) that were held back by the Stone Tower.

While Link is in Termina, there are three different dimensions he travels to: the surreal areas where he meets the Giants, the arena where he fights Twinmold, and the field with the single tree at its center. It's certainly possible that there's a heaven/hell/purgatory symbolism going on there.

Remember, this game is Japanese. While they have used Christian mythology in games before, it's usually much more overt. Majora's Mask seems to be based much more on Japanese mythology, the giants and the Moon being something you could quite easily find in a Studio Gibli film.

It's also logical to assume that the architects of the Stone Tower found that desert realm. It makes less sense to accept the notion that they built the tower but weren't interested in the portal it brought them to.

Again, it's probably something to do with the spirits. But remember, virtually none of the dungeons in Zelda games actually make much sense. Most are just temples with rediculously impractical designs. Why should the Stone Tower be so much different? What about Snowhead Temple? Now THAT is a phallus.

So if it can be accepted that those ancient people found that desert, the next question is why do the monuments in that desert display the image of Majora's Mask? Either those images are meaningless decorations, or the ancient Terminians found the mask in that desert.

You said yourself that the mask symbolism is everywhere. But this is more to do with the connection between the boss masks and Majora's Mask. Twinmold and the other bosses are 'demons' very similar to Majora. They work in connection to Majora's will, to disrupt the world. The desert is merely where Twinmold lives.

but my theory does so while remaining grounded in the evidence the game presents.

But like I said, you do stray into the realms of fanfic quite heavily. I could come up with a similar theory about a completely different region of Termina if I really wanted to.

[Duke Serkol]

the concept of a mask containing the spirit of a demon fits into Termina's culture and mythology very well, but it would be out of place in any of the other realms we are familiar with. I'd say there's a much greater likelihood that Majora's Mask had played a role in Termina's history than the possibility that it had nothing to do with that world until the events of the game.

Very good points! But still...

That's probably true, yes, but we just shouldn't assume it's genesis was in Termina.

It is better to be cautious in assuming.

Termina is a prophetic name. The Japanese love to give things appropriate names. Characters are commonly given names that mean the same thing as their personalities.

That certainly does make sense. Do you think they did the same for the Oracles' lands? Labrynna could easily stand for labyrinth (given the more mazey and puzzley feel of the game), but Holodrum?
Maybe it originally did stand for Hologram (as the name was transliterated when the game was still in development) and the story was more alike that of LA.
Sorry to go off-topic.

[Hylian Dan]

That doesn't explain why Termina was doomed. Ikana seemed to be a completely different country with its own king, completely separate (politically, anyway) from the rest of Termina.

And the Ikanans were already gone and dusted anyway.

Besides, why would the Goddesses use an evil mask to destroy Termina?

The ancient race that built the Stone Tower wasn't necessarily restricted to the Ikana region. They built the pillars in eastern Termina Field, and possibly much more. After building the tower, they might have gone on to build the three other temples, maybe even Clock Town and the Clock Tower.

The important thing is that the earliest race to inhabit that world mocked the goddesses. The goddesses wouldn't let that go unpunished, and so Termina has been doomed to end since its earliest ages, hence the name of the world.

My evidence for this is that the owl, who is typically a messenger of some higher power (the Wind Fish, Rauru), appears in Termina and tells Link that the world has been destined to fade. This begs the question, "Why should Termina have such a bleak destiny?"

The goddesses didn't use the evil mask, but by flipping the Stone Tower upside down they led its builders to the mask's lair. (Twinmold only appeared there after the Giants had been cursed.) Majora was a destroyer of worlds, and Termina deserved destruction.

When Link destroys Majora, an enormous rainbow appears over all of Termina, most likely signifying that the goddesses have decided to spare the world.

What on Earth are you talking about?

Go to Ikana and look at the gate to the Stone Tower.

My god, look, just call yourself Freud and be done with it. Shock horror, not EVERYTHING pointy is intended to be a phallus. You might as well argue that the Biggoron's Sword is one giant phallus and the fact that you can use it againt Ganon in the final battle implies a deep homosexual desire within Link towards his nemesis. Which is just sodding nuts.

Yeah, it obviously is.
I might believe I am overthinking the reason the hand is there if that were the only thing in the Stone Tower that implied blasphemy. But it's not: the statues with the Triforce do so as well. Those statues are pretty obscene, which you can tell by looking at the entrance to the Stone Tower. Taking that into account I am led to believe that the towers around the entrance to the temple are also meant to be obscene. Look at them, and tell me if you think it's even possible that the designers at Nintendo never noticed how phallic they were while creating them. Considering that they placed one of those towers next to a seemingly out of place hand pointing upwards, I'd say they were certainly aware of the implicit message there.

The fact that Termina is called Termina doesn't imply anything else other than the fact that Nintendo thought it sounded nice and appropriate.

I'm aware of the possibility that there wasn't meant to be a logical backstory to MM, and that all the details I've pointed out are pretty much meaningless touches Nintendo added to the game. However, since all of these details add up so nicely to create a very dramatic backstory, and since MM has such a mysterious and ambiguous backstory, I now think that they were in fact intended to have deeper meanings.

[spunky-monkey]

Storyline:
The Kingdom of Ikana and Termina are actually two different lands, but the main problem with your theory is the poor connection between Stone Tower and Majora's Mask. The tower was NOT built by Igos du Ikana because he said it himself it was an *impenetrable fortress*, meaning even with his army, he could not conquer or control it. It's plausible the enemy nation spoke about constructed this place due to the presence of Garo Master there. Majora's Mask itself was made by an evil tribe, so it did not come from Termina or Ikana because the Mask Salesman found it sealed away in darkness, implying somewhere else.

Gameplay:
The reason why Termina was doomed in MM is because it would get boring and repetitive if Hyrule was always in danger.

[Hylian Dan]

Majora's Mask itself was made by an evil tribe, so it did not come from Termina or Ikana because the Mask Salesman found it sealed away in darkness, implying somewhere else.

I didn't say it came from Termina. Most likely the mask came from the tribe that was playing around the tree. When they realized the evil potential of the mask, they sealed it away. Because the race that built the Stone Tower was evil, the goddesses led them to the desert realm where the mask had been sealed, which is how Majora entered Termina.

[MikePetersSucks]

The Stone Tower is the Terminian equivalent of the Tower of Babel. The story of the Tower of Babel tells of mankind's attempt to defy God by building a tower that would reach the heavens. God thwarted their plans by making every man speak a different language. Unable to communicate, the men could not continue building the tower.

Ok, I'll humor this TOTALLY NOT LITERAL symbolism.

How does this apply to the Stone Tower? That tower was also built to defy the gods. Many people have mentioned that the Triforce can be seen on the statues leading to Ikana and on the blocks Link crosses to reach the top of the Tower. Nintendo did not put the Triforce there accidentally, or as an Easter egg. The Triforce is placed on the end of the tongue of the statue, and the statue uses its tongue to cover its crotch. Clearly the architects of those obscene statues were aware of the Triforce's existence and were mocking the three goddesses.

Actually, the Tower was made to be some nondescript spiritual place. The Triforces are because Nintendo reused the graphics from OOT. Storyline-wise, it could be that the Triforce is known by Termina and revered, but they don't crave it, or think it's a metaphor or something. It's not important. Also, the statues don't look anything like the Goddesses (Which I'm assuming have some resemblance to the Oracles.)

The hand at the top of the Stone Tower is pointing at the goddesses, and the phallic tower next to it is saying "Screw you." The Stone Tower itself resembles a giant phallus, sticking out of the earth and pointing towards the heavens to provoke the goddesses.

Yea, because I'm sure giant hands make the goddesses all hot and bothered. For all we know, it's the world's first Novelty Finger.

So they flipped the universe upside down.

WHAT THE FUCK?

The architects opened the portal, but because everything had been reversed it led them to hell. And in hell there was a being that had been sealed away during a previous age, a being that had attempted to destroy the world. The architects found the mask of the demon and brought it with them. And so the goddesses punished the builders of the Stone Tower by releasing Majora into their world. That world was then called Termina because it was doomed to end. The men who had found the mask honored it by placing symbols of it in all the temples, as well as in the realm where they had found it.

Ok, now your upside-down universe thing makes sense. Sorry, I lied. I really doubt Heaven and Hell are literally above and below the Universe in spacial terms, but it's Nintendo, so it's more believable than the Freud Fist. Also, I'm sure Majora was created by some evil tribe of...evil, right? All the Masks seem to be born from curses. I don't see why Majora's Mask would be any different.

(Note: By hell, I am referring to the desert where Twinmold lurks. To support this theory, there are several hints in the game that the goddesses released Majora into Termina. The owl told Link that the world was destined to fade. Why should that world have such a dark fate? It's because of the horrible blasphemy of the Stone Tower. How is the world going to fade? Majora is going to destroy it. When the moon is gone, an enormous rainbow appears over Termina, and it seemed to be a hint that the goddesses had played some role in the story.)

A desert is a desert. I don't see people burning or anything, so I assume it's not to hellish of a place. As for being destined to fade, yea, that was just because Majora set things up so everyone dies in three days. Really, if Ganon came out and made the moon fall in OOT, the Owl would say the same thing, but it doesn't mean the Hylians made a Penis Pillar to go "Nyeh heh." Hell, if anything is "destined" to fade by virtue of prophecy, that'd be LTTP.

Ages later, the Skull Kid stole the mask and the demon finally had a weak host it could use as a puppet. As Majora gained strength, it summoned the moon to come crashing into Termina, as it was the fate of that world to be destroyed. But then a child came into that doomed world, a child who was a member of the race that had been blessed by the goddesses, a child who had carried a piece of the sacred Triforce. That child was Link, and in three days he conquered the devil and saved the world. It should be noted that Link had entered a portal in the sky as he did this; was that the realm the ancient ones had tried to reach? As the moon was cast back into the heavens, the goddesses left behind a rainbow as a promise that they would not again seek to destroy Termina, as God had left a rainbow in the sky as a covenant with Noah after flooding the world.

So...what, the Lost Woods is heaven now? Well shit. Go to hell or be a Stalkid. The goddesses deserved to be Freuded in the face. As for the rainbow, that's probably just a nondescript rainbow to make things happy. I bet you 100% there's not a lick of symbolism behind it.

Interestingly enough, though the goddesses spared Termina, they did send a flood to wipe out Hyrule.

In order to save the people of Hyrule. So...the goddesses sent the moon to save Termina? Nice. Really, the Mask acted on it's own accord, and no victim has ever deliberately instigated destiny before. Majora was evil. It wanted to break stuff. So it tried to break the biggest stuff of all.

After reading part of this thread at IGN, I wanted to add this: In the Stone Tower Temple Link found the Giant's Mask, which was a sort of tranformation mask. Each transformation mask contained a being's essence. Was there, at one point, a fifth Giant? Were there two Giants in the East, and was one of them sealed away? The Giant's Mask closely resembles the mask of the Garo Master. Perhaps one Giant was the patriarch of the Garos and the other the patriarch of the Ikanans, and the ancient conflict was the source of the tensions that led to the war that destroyed Ikana.

It's not that they contain a being. They contain a curse. You CREATE masks with no beings powering their magic. Like, seven of them. Besides, the story of the old woman said that "In the Beginning" There was only four giants. There was never and could never be a fifth giant.

So, what do you think? Does this theory seem too much like fan-fiction, or do you think that the evidence in the game supports it? Is this the most logical explanation to the ambiguous story of MM?

What Evidence? It contradicts most, if not ALL the mythology of Termina, and whatever doesn't is pulled out of your, Joseph's, or Freud's ass.

[Duke Serkol]

Somebody at some point mentioned the similarity of the Mask Salesman to the kids in the moon. I forgot to mention it, but I agree, it may indicate that there is/was a whole tribe of people with his traits somewhere. Given their connection to the masks I'd say it could be the tribe that crafted Majora (the question remains though, was that the same mask salesman as in OoT? He could have come from termina and set up shop in Hyrule too).

Also I want to say something in favor of apparently very hated (lol) Hylian Dan.
I like this guy's posts. They may contain way too much conjecture to take them (as a whole) for possible answers to storyline dilemmas, but he's thinking in ways I never would on subjects I have gone over and over in my mind. I like that.

Also, he's got me to visit th Stone Tower again, and I found a couple of things that previously escaped me. Up to now I thought the Triforce only appeared on the pillars just outside clock town (and considered it possible that it just accidentally got there). I was wrong.
The very same "Triforce on tip of tongue" is also on the blocks the make a bridge for you to enter the Stone Tower dungeon. You can only see it after turning everything upside down. Given how different the rest of the "statue" is, I don't think anymore that it can possibly be a coincidence. I fully believe the Ikanians (and possibly their enemies) did know about the Triforce.
Also I forgot that in the first room of the Stone Tower dungeon there is a FRIGGIN' BIG, DEFINITELY PART OF THE STRUCTURE AND NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS ADDED AT A LATER TIME stone representation of Majora's Mask (or at least something that is almost identical to it). I'm not yelling at anybody other than myself for not remembering that. This is not like the Gerudo symbol put on the blocks you move around (and replaced by Majora in this game) this is an integral part of the dungeon, not something to remind you who you're fighting against.
I'd say that's proof enough that Majora almost certainly belongs to Termina, or at least to the Stone Tower (I'd say it's more than likely the salesman is the one that broke the seal and released the spirits to get it... I already thought so but now this just makes me all the more persuaded).

Speaking of their enemies. The guy that wants you to come by with a Garo mask to let you through describe it as a ninja's mask. Now this could be a mistranslation, but I don't think so. Garo's are very ninja-like.
Consider that ninjas are Japanese and add that we've got a potential race of oriental people like the mask salesman and that said Ninja inhabit a tower with a gigantic representation of a mask...

[Wolf O'Donnell]

It still doesn't change the fact that Nintendo is a Japanese company and prefers to use Japanese mythology as the basis for their stories instead of Christian.

Another thing I remembered is that the Tower of Babel was never meant to mock God, so the analogy to the Tower of Babel doesn't really work here as the Stone Tower wasn't really built as a stairway to Heaven. (It's nowhere near tall enough!).

Remember that each one of the Temples occupies the four directions and more or less houses a Giant.

This tells us more that the Temples were built to the Giants than to mock the Goddesses.

Not to mention that there doesn't really seem to be much mention of the three Goddesses in Termina, which may or may not suggest that the people don't worship them there.

[Fyxe]

but it doesn't mean the Hylians made a Penis Pillar to go "Nyeh heh."

*Dies laughing*

Penis Pillar.

So...what, the Lost Woods is heaven now? Well shit. Go to hell or be a Stalkid. The goddesses deserved to be Freuded in the face.

Freuded in the face! That's just GENIUS.

Serkol, I agree, Majora's Mask likely did come from Termina and it is also highly likely that the ancient people who lived in Ikana knew about the Triforce as well. Hell, there's a warped Triforce symbol appearing as a shadow on the ground Link first falls into when he enters Termina, it's not all reused graphics for no reason.

But, I don't think that means anything about the Stone Tower other than it's really really old. It's perfectly possible that the fighting between Ikana and the Garos was something related to a long-running dispute over either something to do with the Triforce or to do with Majora's Mask, but anything else is purely imagination.

Still, Majora's Mask is definitely the most interesting game when it comes to it's storyline on it's own. There's so much going on and so much weirdness, but most of it is just left to the imagination of the players.

[Duke Serkol]

But, I don't think that means anything about the Stone Tower other than it's really really old. It's perfectly possible that the fighting between Ikana and the Garos was something related to a long-running dispute over either something to do with the Triforce or to do with Majora's Mask, but anything else is purely imagination.

No argument here

That Triforce shaped light mark on the ground near the start is very interesting because it has one of the traingles shrinked down.
For once, I do believe this could be an example of planning ahead on the programmers part: that they were already considering having it told in the next game's legends that Link lost the Triforce of Courage sometimes after OoT and that this is what the shrinked down triangle represents.
Either that or they could have played the beginning of the game again while brainstorming for the new episode and thought "Look at that mark we left there... what if we have him lose the Triforce upon leaving Hyrule?"
As for why the mark would be there (speaking from a "whitin the game" point of view)... the Goddesses would know if Link was to embark on a journey.

Also, the statues don't look anything like the Goddesses (Which I'm assuming have some resemblance to the Oracles.)

TWW had statues that kinda resembled the Oracles, but it also had pretty fugly Incan looking statues that also came in a set of three (each with it's color and all bearing a Triforce symbol) and opened the way to the top of the Tower of the Gods.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 22 August 2006 - 08:23 PM.

[coinilius]

Also, the statues don't look anything like the Goddesses (Which I'm assuming have some resemblance to the Oracles.)

In OoT, the Goddesses looked like this:



I would imagine that depections of them in MM, with it's close design connections with OoT, would probably have remained similar to this. However, I don't think Hylian Dan was trying to say the statue in question depicted a Goddess, rather that it was just obscene and mocking of the Goddesses by way of it's tongue/crotch/triforce proximity.

So they flipped the universe upside down.

I must say, even though I don't agree with your intepretation, I love the imagery and ideas that your post creates, especially the part about flipping the universe upside down so that they open a gate to hell instead of heaven.

Edited by coinilius, 22 August 2006 - 08:44 PM.

[Fyxe]

That Triforce shaped light mark on the ground near the start is very interesting because it has one of the traingles shrinked down.
For once, I do believe this could be an example of planning ahead on the programmers part: that they were already considering having it told in the next game's legends that Link lost the Triforce of Courage sometimes after OoT and that this is what the shrinked down triangle represents.

The thing is, aren't they all slightly different sizes?

I think it's more to do with just being a weird piece of imagery to represent that Link has 'gone down the rabbit hole' and is no longer in Kansas, just to add too many references to my metaphor. I don't think the mark is there for a *reason* no more than the fact that we see weird flying Majora-type shapes when Link falls down into Termina. It's just all... Alice In Wonderlandy. Probably on purpose, I've seen quite a few parodies of that tale in Japanese anime and stuff. Something about it clicks with them, probably due to it's similarities to their own fantasy tales.

[Duke Serkol]

The thing is, aren't they all slightly different sizes?

They all? What all? What other marks, I mean?
Or do you mean that each triangle in that particular mark is a different size? Didn't look that way to me...

[Fyxe]

I thought they were all slightly different, but I might be wrong. There was something else odd about it other than just one being smaller, at least.

[Duke Serkol]

As far as I can tell, the only other unusual thing about it was that the shrinked piece was below the other two rather than on top of them.

[Hylian Dan]

As for why the mark would be there (speaking from a "whitin the game" point of view)... the Goddesses would know if Link was to embark on a journey.

I'll go a bit further with this and guess that the goddesses refused to allow a piece of the sacred Triforce to enter Termina.

Here's that odd Triforce mark:



I also found this interesting shot of Stone Tower in the beta version. Even at that point in development, the odd pillar and the hand were next to each other. So it wasn't a last-minute bit of polish. Of course this doesn't prove anything, but it adds weight to my theory.

It still doesn't change the fact that Nintendo is a Japanese company and prefers to use Japanese mythology as the basis for their stories instead of Christian.

Is that a fact? There's nothing suspicious about Link having three days to save a doomed world from the devil? (And yes, according to Flat there is a devil.)

Another thing I remembered is that the Tower of Babel was never meant to mock God, so the analogy to the Tower of Babel doesn't really work here as the Stone Tower wasn't really built as a stairway to Heaven. (It's nowhere near tall enough!).

The important parallel I'm trying to draw is that both towers were built to defy God/the goddesses, and God/the goddesses foiled those plans in a dramatic way. God made every man speak a different language, and the goddesses flipped everything upside down.

The Triforces are because Nintendo reused the graphics from OOT. Storyline-wise, it could be that the Triforce is known by Termina and revered, but they don't crave it, or think it's a metaphor or something. It's not important.

In almost any good mystery, the major clues are placed so that the audience will dismiss or overlook them.



And how can you think this is meant to be reverant, or that it's just there because Nintendo reused the graphics? That's nonsense.

WHAT THE FUCK?

... Somehow you find it more believable that the people who built the Stone Tower had the power to turn the universe upside down?

Ok, now your upside-down universe thing makes sense. Sorry, I lied. I really doubt Heaven and Hell are literally above and below the Universe in spacial terms, but it's Nintendo, so it's more believable than the Freud Fist.

You get to the field with the tree by going up. You get to the desert by going down. That part of my theory still fits the mythology the game provides.

Also, I'm sure Majora was created by some evil tribe of...evil, right? All the Masks seem to be born from curses. I don't see why Majora's Mask would be any different.

That doesn't contradict my theory. I said the mask was sealed in the desert after being created by an ancient tribe.

A desert is a desert. I don't see people burning or anything, so I assume it's not to hellish of a place.

I'm not saying it's exactly like the Christian Hell. I'm calling it hell because it seems to have served as the abode of the devil.

So...what, the Lost Woods is heaven now? Well shit. Go to hell or be a Stalkid.

What? I never said that.

[Fyxe]

Someone saying 'he sold his soul to the devil' hardly means that a devil actually exists. It's just a common saying.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I also found this interesting shot of Stone Tower in the beta version. Even at that point in development, the odd pillar and the hand were next to each other. So it wasn't a last-minute bit of polish. Of course this doesn't prove anything, but it adds weight to my theory.

If you think that's phallic, then I shudder to think what penises you've been looking at.

Is that a fact? There's nothing suspicious about Link having three days to save a doomed world from the devil? (And yes, according to Flat there is a devil.)

There's nothing to suggest that Majora is the devil and the three day's period isn't suspicious at all.

The important parallel I'm trying to draw is that both towers were built to defy God/the goddesses, and God/the goddesses foiled those plans in a dramatic way. God made every man speak a different language, and the goddesses flipped everything upside down.

The Tower of Babel was never meant to defy God. It was meant to unite Heaven and Earth, but God didn't like that idea. He never told them they couldn't or weren't allowed to do it, so how are they defying God?

In almost any good mystery, the major clues are placed so that the audience will dismiss or overlook them.



And how can you think this is meant to be reverant, or that it's just there because Nintendo reused the graphics? That's nonsense.

The problem is that you're looking at these pictures from a biased Christian viewpoint. In Aztec culture the death's skull was something important and reverent to their culture. No culture in the world has ever built monuments to mock the gods, even the mythological people that built the mythological Tower of Babel (which is a story based on the experience Jews had when they were in Babil also known as Babylon) didn't intend to mock or defy God.

I'm not saying it's exactly like the Christian Hell. I'm calling it hell because it seems to have served as the abode of the devil.

Who said? How can you prove it?

I'm sorry if I sound a bit angry, but I just came over from a forum where I had to debate against a guy that insists on making his religion (which just happened to be Christianity) the centre of everything. It just boils my blood when people insist on putting a religious spin on things when there isn't any reason to do so.

[Duke Serkol]

The problem is that you're looking at these pictures from a biased Christian viewpoint. In Aztec culture the death's skull was something important and reverent to their culture. No culture in the world has ever built monuments to mock the gods

I too was thinking something like that. I mean, that in many cultures the tongue would be revered as it allows us to communicate (so placing a religious icon over it could either signify a wish to speak to the gods or that speech was a gift by the gods) and that in some even the crotch could easily be associated to positive religious symbols as it allows us to perpetuate ourselves (and have a great time doing it too).

[LionHarted]

No offence, but that sound like rambling to me. How can you compare something that isn't real to an ancient tower that is real? I don't see how your theory can be plausible...sorry.

TWW's flood myth is almost exactly like some Native American and Japanese Great Flood myths. Nintendo draws most of its concepts from actual mythology.

[Showsni]

If you shoot that which releases
the sacred golden light into the
blood-stained, red emblem outside
the temple...
it shall rearrange things, in which
the earth is born in the heavens
and the moon is born on the
earth.

Is this the only quote we have about flipping the temple? It doesn't refer to hell or heaven, though. (The heavens are the sky.) It seems that shooting the emblem makes the moon and earth change places. Which I suppose implies another link with Majora's mask - the Mask calls the moon, and whoever built the tower had the power to let earth and the moon exchange positions.
It's possible that the tower builders are the tribe who used the mask in their hexing rituals. Maybe they were moon worshippers? The mirror shield is found nearby, and it reflects light, like the moon.