31 replies to this topic

[LionHarted]

(In response to the statement that "OoT and ALttP Hyrule are the same.")

But TMC, FS, FSA, and ALttP don't have any of the same buildings as OoT or TP, aside from Hyrule Castle and arguably the church in the graveyard, or Lon Lon Ranch, if you want to be REALLY picky. The Eastern Palace, Desert Palace, the Tower(s) on Death Mountain, the towering temple in the forest, et cetera, et cetera, do not exist in OoT or TP. The locales in the 2D games are all shared to some extent by the 2D games, though, and the ones in OoT are often in TP, with a few in TWW. But the locales that started off as OoT exclusives, with the exception of Lon Lon Ranch, have not been carried over into 2D games, although they have been used many times in other 3D games (Deku Tree's Grove/Forbidden Forest in TWW; Lakebed/Water Temple, Temple of Time in TP).

The Forest Temple in the eastern forest, Fire Temple inside Death Mountain Crater, Water Temple in the bottom of Lake Hylia, Shadow Temple in the graveyard, Desert Colossus in the desert--none of these things exist in the 2D games, either.

Death Mountain is now two-peaked. Lake Hylia appears to be a fledgling lake in TMC and FSA, considerably closer to its source, and doesn't push south in the 2D games until ALttP. The river has branched considerably from other games, and often travels to the ocean instead of to Lake Hylia, as it does in the 3D games. The land itself seems to be considerably more cohesive in terms of literally being united as one unit in ALttP than it is in FSA... but this doesn't serve a gameplay purpose, since FSA's world map is traversed in a multi-level world style rather than the traditional exploration mode. Kakariko has inexplicably moved, despite remaining static in OoT and TP.

Too much is different in ways that don't, in my opinion, line up with OoT or even TP's Hyrule, now--which is one of the reasons why I place these games after the flood in the first place. The seemingly rebooted geography, if it is meant to be a result of any kind of continuity, would be expected from heavy terraforming, as the Deku Tree plans to instate. The seemingly-new set of temples and villages, if they are meant to be storyline-significant, would follow from settlement.

Presuming the Deku Tree's plan goes through, a new country should be similar to Hyrule in that the islands being connected, since they are the mountain peaks of Hyrule, should effectively form a landmass similar in shape and structure. Death Mountain and Zora's Fountain, being peaks themselves, should already be above sea level, which is why they remain intact. Aside from these, the only positive resemblance between OoT, TP, and the 2D Hyrule is that there is a desert to the west.

[Jumbie]

Well, not to come off as rude, but... Your post is bursting full of hypocrisy!!!
Of course this topic is devoid of any relevance, but for the fun of debunking it, I'll take it apart one by one:

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But TMC, FS, FSA, and ALttP don't have any of the same buildings as OoT or TP, aside from Hyrule Castle and arguably the church in the graveyard, or Lon Lon Ranch, if you want to be REALLY picky.

And that IS a good number already! Now be so kind and add to that OoT's Temple of Time which is at the place where TP's and ALttP's Master Sword rests.

Btw, here's a complete list of buildings in TMC: Hyrule Castle, Hyrule Town, LonLon Ranch, Wind Ruins, Palace of Winds. (Minish dungeons obviously don't count.)
...Oh wonders, a Castle and a Town appear in both OoT and TP! A Ranch is in OoT, while a Sky Palace is in TP.

- List of buildings in FS: Sacred Precincts of the Four Sword, Palace of Winds. Wow, that's a lot.

- List of buildings in FSA: ...Emm nope. It's a known fact that FSA borrowed places from most every Zelda game. Since FSA generally shied away from the Master Sword/Triforce theme, few OoT or TP locales made it in. Ever thought about that?

- List of buildings in ALttP: The three you mentioned that are in OoT, plus Kakariko, and the others are off OoT's map.

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The Eastern Palace, Desert Palace, the Tower(s) on Death Mountain, the towering temple in the forest, et cetera, et cetera, do not exist in OoT or TP.

- Eastern Temple is in OoT: the Forest Temple. Proof? Me saying so. (Not like you ever need more proof than your word for your own theories either...)
- Desert Temple and the Tower (there only ever is one) are not built yet or are off the map in OoT.
- FSA's towering temple in the forest? Now I'm really curious for you to show me where that one appears in ALttP and TMC...

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The locales in the 2D games are all shared to some extent by the 2D games

So where's the church in FSA? Where's the Village of the Blue Maiden in ALttP? Where's the Desert Temple in TMC? And, where's FSA's freaking Dark Temple in ALttP? (Don't say in the Dark World, their Japanese names are entirely different.)

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Lakebed/Water Temple

You do realize that ALttP actually *invented* the Water Temple concept..?
No they're not the same place, but neither are OoT's and TP's water temples the same place.

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[...]Fire Temple inside Death Mountain Crater, Water Temple in the bottom of Lake Hylia, Shadow Temple in the graveyard, Desert Colossus in the desert--none of these things exist in the 2D games, either.

Ah hah - so they don't exist in ALttP because Link cannot reach them, yes? ...Oh look, I just close my eyes and you're not there anymore!
I can precisely show you the entrance to OoT's Water and Shadow Temples in ALttP. Just, Link cannot enter them due to natural obstructions.

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The river has branched considerably from other games, and often travels to the ocean instead of to Lake Hylia, as it does in the 3D games.

So you suggest the river's course is any similar in OoT and TP? Except it's not at all. And the river doesn't flow into Lake Hylia in ALttP and TMC? Yes, it very much does. Yes, in TMC too.

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The land itself seems to be considerably more cohesive in terms of literally being united as one unit in ALttP than it is in FSA... but this doesn't serve a gameplay purpose, since FSA's world map is traversed in a multi-level world style rather than the traditional exploration mode.

Then why do you even mention this?

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Kakariko has inexplicably moved, despite remaining static in OoT and TP.

Between OoT and TP, the village most clearly falls into decline. With three inhabitants left after TP, it's obvious that it won't continue being a village for much longer. There's all reason to assume the village was later re-established in an opposite part of Hyrule (compare with the move of Kasuto Town).

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Too much is different in ways that don't, in my opinion, line up with OoT or even TP's Hyrule, now--which is one of the reasons why I place these games after the flood in the first place.

Wrong. Your reason to do so is utter RANDOMNESS. If only your timeline required it, you'd try to justify any placement of games by coming up with the craziest theories. You know you would.

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The seemingly rebooted geography, if it is meant to be a result of any kind of continuity, would be expected from heavy terraforming, as the Deku Tree plans to instate. The seemingly-new set of temples and villages, if they are meant to be storyline-significant, would follow from settlement.

Rebooted geography?! Throughout this entire post you were talking about buildings! No, there is no geographic continuity, actually.
I have explained where the temples possibly were during OoT. And even you should be able to comprehend that a flood is not needed to found new settlements. A simple abandonment of one place and settling to another suffices well enough.

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Death Mountain and Zora's Fountain, being peaks themselves, should already be above sea level, which is why they remain intact.

Firstly, Dragon Roost Island doesn't look that much like ALttP's or FSA's Death Mountain. Not that I mind - but you should.
And you absolutely need to show me Zora's Fountain on TWW's map, I always must have overlooked it before...

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Aside from these, the only positive resemblance between OoT, TP, and the 2D Hyrule is that there is a desert to the west.

Wait, now finish your work and explain how the desert comes into existence after TWW! Why at the same place? Why at a place that doesn't have any mountain peaks to base new soil on? And where is the desert in TMC anyway? No, don't say off the map - we both know this answer is never an option for you. A maaajor flaw in your theory!


...I know, I shouldn't have given this thread any attention by posting, but it was just soooo much fun to showcase all your hypocritical lies.
Basically, you appear like a sly deceiver, just that you never actually manage to deceive anyone Well, with the exception of yourself, that is.

[Impossible]

...REBOOTED GEOGRAPHY?!





They're exactly the fucking same! How do lakes and deserts end up matching their old location?

I love how you focus on all the LEAST important aspects of Hyrule in order to justify saying that it isn't a recreation of OoT's. Nobody gives a shit about structures and buildings - those are the things most likely to change. Many of them only relate to gameplay, or the specific plot of a game. The Sacred Realm, Triforce, Master Sword, etc. mean a fuck of a lot more than that. That was jhurvid's point in the TMC topic, too, because that's the land Ganondorf coveted. And he still does in ALttP and other games. It's the same place! TWW and TP's deaths of Ganondorf respectively foreshadow whether or not his conquest of Hyrule will continue.

Tell me, how is that that all those things like the MS, history of the Triforce, and names of places even exist in ALttP anymore? According to you, they're not known in TMC. And the MS is at the bottom of the ocean.

Edited by Impossible, 11 April 2008 - 11:05 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Who's your dealer?

[LionHarted]

Jumbie said

And even you should be able to comprehend that a flood is not needed to found new settlements.

Since this quote represents the heart of your argument, I'll address it:

When several the primary settlements are NOT in common between one game and the next, what does that suggest?

OoT and TP are so similar that it is obvious that they are connected. They share Castle Town, a Goron Village on Death Mountain, Zora's Domain as the source of Hyrule's water, there is a temple containing Kokiri symbology, there is a temple in the bed of Lake Hylia, there is a graveyard within Kakariko Village, Kakariko Village is found in a gulch just next to Death Mountain, and there is a desert to the west.

FSA and ALttP are so similar that is is obvious that they are connected. They share the northwestern Lost Woods, a Kakariko Village nestled in/nearby those woods, a two-peaked Death Mountain, the Eastern Palace, the Desert Palace, the desert to the west, a swamp land, a waterfall area populated by River Zoras, and a graveyard nearby Hyrule Castle.

TMC is admittedly just as much like FSA and ALttP that it is like OoT or TP in terms of geography. It shares with FSA/ALttP a twin-peaked mountain where Gorons used to dwell, a swamp land with ruins similar to those seen in ALttP (area between Lake Hylia and the desert), a waterfall area with a Lake Hylia near its foot that sources Hyrule's water (similarity to FSA), and a graveyard nearby Hyrule Castle. Admittedly it shares the Goron-related mountain, the waterfall area, the Castle Town, and the eastern forest area with OoT, but I'd argue that the mountain being the former home of the Gorons points to post-Flood, where they'd been scattered across the sea (it could just as well be that they migrated from Crenel to Death Mountain, but them being scattered by the Flood is actually verifiable), and that the placement of Lake Hylia matches FSA's better than OoT's.

The biggest links between TP and ALttP are the Master Sword area and the church, but until we see the plotline post-TP more adequately explored, I'm not prepared to say that anything in TP that links to games late in the timeline is not residual from when it was going to be before TWW. I personally think that the developers intended to make the Mirror of Gloom/Twilight and the Dark Mirror the same, so to me destroying the Mirror of Twilight at the end of the game was basically supposed to tell us that there was no actual link between TP and the FSA-ALttP section of the timeline.

Therefore, personally, I see TMC's geography as more closely based off ALttP's, and possibly FSA's on the Lake Hylia point. However, if TMC is actually first, then I admit that FSA and ALttP are probably in the Child Timeline.

As for my placement of the games in the timeline I have them in:

The Child Timeline does not offer a substantial reason for the society and temple system to be substantially different.
The Adult Timeline does--if they're building a new kingdom from the islands connected by the Deku Tree (which I've concluded is probably inevitable). This would explain why Lake Hylia is closer to its source in FSA (and in TMC, if it's not first) than in OoT--Death Mountain and Zora's Domain, being on particularly high ground, would likely be above the floodwaters and outlasted the Flood. I seriously doubt that we see them in TWW.

That's the bulk of my argument. I admit I wasn't very focused in the first post, and was just throwing around stuff in this thread.

TMC could lean either way, looking at ALL the evidence and not just a vague ending quote. I just like it better after TWW (not without reason, but I do not see any especially compelling reasons for either argument, so it's ALL circumstantial).

Impossible said

Tell me, how is that that all those things like the MS, history of the Triforce, and names of places even exist in ALttP anymore? According to you, they're not known in TMC. And the MS is at the bottom of the ocean.

History is easy. Ever heard of archaeology?
Place names follow from the history.
A Master Sword is made in Oracles. The Master Sword is never said to have been made by the sages in ALttP.

Edited by LionHarted, 12 April 2008 - 07:13 PM.

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Apr 13 2008, 02:09 AM, said:

When several the primary settlements are NOT in common between one game and the next, what does that suggest?

That they were abandoned and newly founded.

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I personally think that the developers intended to make the Mirror of Gloom/Twilight and the Dark Mirror the same, so to me destroying the Mirror of Twilight at the end of the game was basically supposed to tell us that there was no actual link between TP and the FSA-ALttP section of the timeline.

I'm with you on that, as you can see in the Mirror thread. For me, ALttP+FSA are not in the same timeline as TP.

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However, if TMC is actually first, then I admit that FSA and ALttP are probably in the Child Timeline.

But you wouldn't have to, not at all. Keep in mind that TMC has not even remotely anything to do with FSA.

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A Master Sword is made in Oracles. The Master Sword is never said to have been made by the sages in ALttP.

Oh, the old "Two-Master-Swords" theory is back? To think that only days ago I snickered at that theory's being extinct...

So, you still haven't explained that:

Jumbie said

Wait, now finish your work and explain how the desert comes into existence after TWW! Why at the same place? Why at a place that doesn't have any mountain peaks to base new soil on?

I'm really curious to hear what devices the Deku Trees used to "terraform" some of the newly created, prosperous islands into a harsh wasteland. ...Did they maybe hire Biggoron to turn Dragon Roost Peak into a billion tons of sand?

[Raien]

A lot of locations are actually given new names by settlers. If Hyrule was rediscovered, I would assume that the land would be christened with new names, like "New York". I don't know what the Native Americans called their country before the settlers arrived, but I doubt it was America. And also place names are changed in order to comemmorate some large occasion. Like Stalingrad was named after Stalin.

Edited by jhurvid, 12 April 2008 - 08:45 PM.

[LionHarted]

To jhurvid: Of course, I suppose this to be the case. Veil Falls and Mount Crenel both hint at being the same as Zora's Fountain and Death Mountain, respectively (I can justify if necessary), but are given new names. If it was discovered that the falls and the mountain were actually the same places of old, they could be rechristened with their original names.

Most of the other locales in FSA/ALttP, aside from Lake Hylia, have different names, including the desert, the forest (initially), etc. etc.

That's why this argument came to be in the first place.

Jumbie, on Apr 12 2008, 08:09 PM, said:

That they were abandoned and newly founded.

Why?

A flood establishes a concrete reason for this.

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But you wouldn't have to, not at all. Keep in mind that TMC has not even remotely anything to do with FSA.

Well, unless you consider establishing a long period of time in which Vaati was the primary threat to Hyrule, thus justifying his being mistaken for the King of Darkness in FSA as something "remotely... to do with FSA."

Which I do.

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I'm really curious to hear what devices the Deku Trees used to "terraform" some of the newly created, prosperous islands into a harsh wasteland.

He claims he can do it with trees.

Without a contradicting source, I'm going to assume he can.

[Raien]

LionHarted, on Apr 13 2008, 03:14 AM, said:

To jhurvid: Of course, I suppose this to be the case. Veil Falls and Mount Crenel both hint at being the same as Zora's Fountain and Death Mountain, respectively (I can justify if necessary), but are given new names. If it was discovered that the falls and the mountain were actually the same places of old, they could be rechristened with their original names.

I've never heard of a location rechristened to fit with an original name. It would be like rechristening France "Gaul" or London "Londinium". It just doesn't happen (although we are talking about a video game series here, so I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to keep similar names after a flood).

[Impossible]

Archaeology doesn't apply to something that's physically impossible for anyone to find, or to actually exist anymore. It's nearly as bad as your cries of "science" supporting the Deku Tree's plan.

Edited by Impossible, 12 April 2008 - 09:41 PM.

[LionHarted]

jhurvid, on Apr 12 2008, 09:20 PM, said:

I've never heard of a location rechristened to fit with an original name. It would be like rechristening France "Gaul" or London "Londinium". It just doesn't happen (although we are talking about a video game series here, so I wouldn't put it past Nintendo to keep similar names after a flood).

Haunted Wasteland/Gerudo Desert = Desert of Doubt/Mystery (doubt is close enough to mystery that I don't think it's a name change in and of itself)
Kokiri/Deku Forest/Lost Woods = Forest of Light (which is later rechristened the Lost Woods)
And several other places that don't appear in any of the 3D games.

And, as I've put forth before, Nintendo reuses names for the heck of it more often than not, and Aonuma admitted this with respect to TP's Kakariko.

Impossible said

Archaeology doesn't apply to something that's physically impossible for anyone to find, or to actually exist anymore

Then what are the guys from Salvage Corps. doing? And what's the point of the Salvage Arm in PH? The Grappling Hook in TWW?

It's obvious that things are being pulled up from the Great Sea.

Edited by LionHarted, 12 April 2008 - 09:53 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Yea, before it came crashing down and destroying the entire submerged country it shielded. And PH is in a separate region, so that's irrelevant.

[LionHarted]

MikePetersSucks, on Apr 12 2008, 09:07 PM, said:

Yea, before it came crashing down and destroying the entire submerged country it shielded.

So when Link was sending his Grappling Hook down into the Great Sea to pick up the Triforce Shards, he was breaking through the shield?

That's... a really crappy shield. XD

My point, though, is that plenty of stuff survived the flood. Obviously. Entire temples survived it.

Edited by LionHarted, 12 April 2008 - 10:10 PM.

[Jumbie]

LionHarted said

Why?

A flood establishes a concrete reason for this.

Because Kakariko Village fell into decline after OoT. A concrete reason, proven by TP.

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Well, unless you consider establishing a long period of time in which Vaati was the primary threat to Hyrule, thus justifying his being mistaken for the King of Darkness in FSA as something "remotely... to do with FSA."

Which I do.

I don't. FS' backstory is unlikely to be TMC.

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I'm really curious to hear what devices the Deku Trees used to "terraform" some of the newly created, prosperous islands into a harsh wasteland.

He claims he can do it with trees.

Without a contradicting source, I'm going to assume he can.

Aha, a cheap cop-out, just as I thought.
You know, the Deku Tree never said his dream is to transform part of a new continent into a desert. Therefore, I'm going to assume he won't.

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Haunted Wasteland/Gerudo Desert = Desert of Doubt/Mystery (doubt is close enough to mystery that I don't think it's a name change in and of itself)

The Japanese name is "Desert of Doubt" in both FSA and ALttP. The OoT wasteland is called "Desert of Illusions". Close enough to "doubt" or not?!

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My point, though, is that plenty of stuff survived the flood. Obviously. Entire temples survived it.

Proof? (You cannot cite TMC, FSA or ALttP as proof, since their placement is not known.)

Edited by Jumbie, 12 April 2008 - 10:31 PM.

[Impossible]

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Aha, a cheap cop-out, just as I thought.
You know, the Deku Tree never said his dream is to transform part of a new continent into a desert. Therefore, I'm going to assume he won't.

Surely we all expected that.

The Deku Tree also never said his dream was to create a new Hyrule.

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Then what are the guys from Salvage Corps. doing? And what's the point of the Salvage Arm in PH? The Grappling Hook in TWW?

Those are before TWW's ending, so everything is destroyed now. In addition, the ocean would be covered up by the Deku Tree's land anyway. Nobody would be able to get down there anymore. And that wouldn't let him pull up records of history.

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Kokiri/Deku Forest/Lost Woods = Forest of Light (which is later rechristened the Lost Woods)

...OoT's Lost Woods is clearly not ALttP's.

How can you seriously believe that geography is on your side here? Structures are the absolute least important thing, they have nothing to do with the timeline. The actual geography, map alignment, history, important objects, and everything else all mean a hell of a lot more.

[LionHarted]

Impossible, on Apr 12 2008, 09:56 PM, said:

Those are before TWW's ending, so everything is destroyed now.

What's this "everything" you speak of?

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In addition, the ocean would be covered up by the Deku Tree's land anyway.

Land doesn't cover up ocean.

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...OoT's Lost Woods is clearly not ALttP's.

But TP's are?

Despite being the same one as OoT's... XD

[Impossible]

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What's this "everything" you speak of?

Hyrule and anything in it. Especially any books, records, etc. which are now gone.

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Land doesn't cover up ocean.

It does if the Deku Tree makes it, which is the crux of that theory.

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But TP's are?

Despite being the same one as OoT's... XD

How the hell is TP's Sacred Grove OoT's Lost Woods? That's just false, and I'd appreciate if you'd stop lying and making up crap to make a point. The Sacred Grove is where the Temple of Time was in OoT, that's a fact. That is NOT where the Lost Woods was in OoT, it can only be where it is in ALttP. The Master Sword and Temple of Time are not in OoT's Lost Woods. Why would you even make such a nonsensical connection? Are you that blind to the fact that there's a much better one along those lines that was actually intended?

Edited by Impossible, 13 April 2008 - 12:57 AM.

[DarkZero24]

Hey, guys. Just stopping by to see what all the fuzz is about. I'm pretty much retired from theorizing, so I'm not gonna stick around to debate.

However, this caught my eye:

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However, if TMC is actually first, then I admit that FSA and ALttP are probably in the Child Timeline.

Are you, Lex, telling us that what's keeping your theory together is the possibility that TMC is after TWW? Is this placement so strong and so influential that it necessitates all the speculation and all the retconning that comes with placing FSA and ALttP after TWW?

I mean, keeping OoT as the IW and maintaining that the Dark and Twilight Mirrors are the same used to be vital points of your theory, but apparently, they are now but part of the many events and plot points that need undergo twisting and manipulation due to the whims of another game's placement. Have these points really been reduced to naught but consequences of the games' placements, as opposed to being evidence of those games' very placements themselves?

Sounds to me like you're basically saying that in the end, these connections are probably not that strong, and only become necessary if we are to believe that TMC follows TWW - that without TMC as a bridge, the chasm between TWW and FSA/ALttP is all but uncrossable, no matter which way you go about to get around it.

So, if I have this right, you do believe the chances of a Child placement of FSA and ALttP are significant, and maybe even desirable, BUT for the fact that you believe TMC likely follows TWW (and thus implying that Hyrule does come back in some form), which thus necessitates that FSA follow (and thus implying that the Dark Mirror is the same as the MoT), which thus necessitates that ALttP come next (and thus implying that OoT is the IW, but with a different Ganon). In short, it is an unfortunate, but necessary, sequence of assumptions and implications that links back to TMC. Without TMC, there's little reason to even go further, as we'd have virtually no evidence of Hyrule ever having been flooded prior to that game's events.

Am I correct?

Edited by DarkZero24, 13 April 2008 - 01:42 AM.

[Impossible]

So then why is he so sure that TMC is after TWW? There isn't much reason for it anymore.

And my belief is that TMC fills in that incredibly large chasm between TWW and FSA not with a bridge, but with something completely malformed that doesn't properly fit the chasm at all. It doesn't make anything better, it just forces the theory to be even more rigid and creates more nonsensical contradictions. Now this is how it fits together:

TWW: Most knowledge of Hyrule, its history, and its landmarks is lost. None of the old names of things exist, nor are they known to a single living being after the end of the game. Because Hyrule was completely drowned, we have to assume that such knowledge has been lost forever. The Triforce legend is almost completely lost; only Link and Zelda really know much about it, and they wouldn’t know all the history. They wouldn’t know anything about the Hylian race, or the Goddesses and creation story.

TMC: Places like Mt. Crenel have different names because of the lost knowledge from the flood. There’s a (meaningless) reference to Triumph Forks in the game, supposedly because the Triforce still has TWW’s lack of knowledge status. But Triforce symbols and Hylian royal emblems bearing the Triforce have been magically rediscovered, exactly as they were in the old Hyrule. Um, even though the Triforce itself is unknown, and even though Hylian relics have been discovered that tell us about lots of other things. And even though they haven't been, because the other half of things about old Hyrule aren't known yet.

FSA: Names such as Death Mountain, Kakariko Village, Lake Hylia (although this was in TMC) and the Lost Woods have magically reappeared in Hyrule, even though they were apparently nonexistent in the new Hyrule, since we had, say, Mt. Crenel before. So somehow, even though the names of old places did not exist in the new Hyrule, now they do. There is currently no evidence for or against knowledge of Hyrule’s creation, its ancient history, and the Triforce, although the Hylian crest is present here, too.

ALttP: Hyrule’s history is suddenly known as well as it was in OoT. All of the creation story, the Triforce, the Hylians, and everything else I told you was completely lost during TWW now exists. Place names are all identical to OoT, even though nobody knew those at all. Once again, even though the names of old places didn’t exist in Hyrule, they now do, but with the added bonus of the Triforce, pretty much showing that the Triumph Forks was an Easter egg with no relevance.

Doesn't TMC make things worse? And as for FSA and ALttP, that's not even touching on the IW and Ganon, which don't work at all between TWW, FSA and ALttP. TMC makes things far worse by creating a completely fictional time period in which things about Hyrule supposedly are NOT known. That would prove that they weren't on the Great Sea, but it also makes their later recovery between TMC and FSA impossible.

Edited by Impossible, 13 April 2008 - 01:52 AM.

[LionHarted]

Again, Impossible, you assume that because knowledge is lost in one time period it will remain so forever. This is completely out of line with the real world, in which history is constantly being unearthed.

TWW doesn't have any of the same place names as OoT because everything is an island.

The Triforce crest appearing in TMC isn't an argument; the crest is all over TWW and PH anyway.

You also equate knowledge surrounding a single event, the IW, as knowledge of all of Hyrule's history. Since most of the information about the IW is heard from the maidens, all of whom are descended from the sages--and apparently, as we see in OoT and TWW, being descended from the sages somehow gives you an impeccable knowledge of things you didn't know before.

No one knows about the Triforce, except the maidens, a random tree in the Dark World, and Ganon. Everyone else just knows of it as the "golden power." This is exactly as it is known in TWW.

No one knows about the creation story; it's never referenced by a single character in-game.

There are only four place names shared between OoT and ALttP (excepting Hyrule Castle): Death Mountain, the Lost Woods, Lake Hylia, and Kakariko Village. We can see that at least the latter three move around in the series anyway. The Forest of Light isn't christened Lost Woods until FSA. Lake Hylia seems to have moved back to a point near the water source of Hyrule. Kakariko is now in the forest instead of in the gulch near Death Mountain.

And on top of all this, my theory puts LoZ/AoL before TMC anyway, to serve as the restoration of the broken kingdom, and the coming of the new king. I base this placement off of a number of references scattered throughout PH: the reference to six sages, the unflooding of the Cobble Kingdom (how ironic), and Maze Island to the northeast, with the home of the Gorons to the south of it. These form the strongest positive reference to LoZ/AoL seen in the entire series. Going off that placement, the existence of the sage towns in AoL would imply that some knowledge of the Imprisoning War DID survive.

You can say this is impossible all you like, but you have no proof, and even if the box text was proof, it's more outdated than the Miyamoto Order, and the primary objection to it--that LA HAS to go after ALttP--has been refuted.


You say there "isn't much reason for it anymore." There was never reason for any placement of TMC. Its plot is entirely inconsequential to the overall timeline. Nothing about it is significant.

Edited by LionHarted, 13 April 2008 - 02:12 AM.

[DarkZero24]

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You say there "isn't much reason for it anymore." There was never reason for any placement of TMC. Its plot is entirely inconsequential to the overall timeline. Nothing about it is significant.

...well, there goes my entire analysis, then. You either can't keep track of what you're saying, or you just can't seem to convey what it is you really believe in with any clarity.

[Impossible]

LionHarted, on Apr 13 2008, 05:12 PM, said:

You also equate knowledge surrounding a single event, the IW, as knowledge of all of Hyrule's history. Since most of the information about the IW is heard from the maidens, all of whom are descended from the sages--and apparently, as we see in OoT and TWW, being descended from the sages somehow gives you an impeccable knowledge of things you didn't know before.

...

...

Someone else, please do it. I can't even bring myself to take this seriously.

Okay, fine, I'll say it.

FSA.

Just stop now before you dig yourself even further. Please.

[LionHarted]

Impossible: It's true, though; all the characters who know anything about the war are descended from the sages.

And, again, if I'm arguing that Ganon in ALttP isn't from the IW, why does FSA have any relevance?

DarkZero24, on Apr 13 2008, 01:43 AM, said:

...well, there goes my entire analysis, then. You either can't keep track of what you're saying, or you just can't seem to convey what it is you really believe in with any clarity.

When did I say TMC was important to the plot?

Edited by LionHarted, 13 April 2008 - 03:48 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

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So when Link was sending his Grappling Hook down into the Great Sea to pick up the Triforce Shards, he was breaking through the shield?

How do we know the Triforce Shards were all the way below the water? I'm of the mind they were actually in the water, not quite on the surface, but not in the submerged Hyrule either.

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When did I say TMC was important to the plot?

*points to your horrible, garbled mess of a theory(s)*

[LionHarted]

MikePetersSucks, on Apr 13 2008, 12:18 PM, said:

*points to your horrible, garbled mess of a theory(s)*

This theory has nothing to do with the plot. o_O

[Showsni]

If anything, after the shield breaks the Salvage Crew will be able to pull up more of Hyrule, since now there isn't a barier in the way.

Nintendo have told us a lot that gameplay comes before story. Geography arguments are nigh useless; if Nintendo thinks it would be cool to have an ice temple or something, they'll stick a glacier in without caring about the other games.

[TheAvengerLever]

Unless they organize the locations of these elemental temples by compass direction.

[Jumbie]

LionHarted, on Apr 13 2008, 09:12 AM, said:

I base this placement off of a number of references scattered throughout PH: the reference to six sages

Wait, what about them?

[FDL]

Those Six Sages have zero relation to the ones in the other games, Lionharted. Zero. On the other hand, in TP we have the same ancient Sages that are mentioned in OoT and ALttP AND we have descendants of OoT's Sages. That's a hell of a lot more of a connection than the Cobble Kingdom is. Speaking of which, isn't the Cobble Kingdom in the Ocean King's world anyway? Making the connections you're desperately trying to make seem even more desperate. Have you actually played any of these games or are you going on hearsay?

[Impossible]

Lex, please, while you're playing ALttP and TWW again, also play FSA again, because you don't seem to remember it well.

The maidens do NOT KNOW of Ganon. You're contradicting your own past statements that it's possible only Zelda knew about him (which isn't stated either, Zelda could just know that there's a demon inside the trident that is reborn/revived in Ganon). If there was any inherent knowledge of that, they would have it.

All the claims you're making about ALttP are completely unfounded. It's clearly implied that all of ALttP's manual story is part of Hyrulian legend in the time of ALttP. It's told as though it's from a history book that is actually written by a person in Hyrule, and the creation myth is "From the Genesis Preface", not from Nintendo's mouths.

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You can say this is impossible all you like, but you have no proof, and even if the box text was proof, it's more outdated than the Miyamoto Order, and the primary objection to it--that LA HAS to go after ALttP--has been refuted.

Wow, this is wrong in more ways than I can count. That's not even close to the primary objection to the "Miyamoto Order", there are many other reasons why it simple can't have been right. Hell, that's probably the thing I care least about when it comes to disproving that order. And aside from that, LA being a sequel to ALttP has in no way been refuted. Even if it were, LA was factually a sequel to ALttP in 1998.

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Making the connections you're desperately trying to make seem even more desperate. Have you actually played any of these games or are you going on hearsay?

It's just his approach to any newly released Zelda game - find quotes or plot points that can be taken out of context in order to support a theory that is really baseless fan fiction (i.e. Sand of Hours = Light Force). What we need to do when a new Zelda game comes out is first play it and read its story objectively, with no consideration for our own timelines, in order to determine that game's INTENDED significance. It was the desperate desire of some people to only acknowledge anything in a game from their perspective which resulted in things like the ridiculous single timeline after TP's release.

As for Lex being so desperate about ALttP... That, I don't get.

Edited by Impossible, 14 April 2008 - 11:49 PM.