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My Timeline Theory


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#1 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 05:41 PM

This is my timeline. I welcome any complaints or arguments, but at least give it a read-through and a consideration.

Just as a general intro, my order goes like this: OoT(child) - MM - OoT(adult) - TWW - FS - FSA(also known as HA) - OoS - OoA - ALttP - LA - LoZ - AoL

The Order of Events

-Golden Goddesses create Hyrule
-Kingdom of Hyrule founded.
-Ganondorf I born.
-Link, the Hero of Time, is born.
-Ocarina of Time child portions occur.
-Ganondorf I takes over Hyrule
-Majora's Mask occurs. Link (child) enters Termina and the Triforce of Courage leaves him. It is separated into right pieces.
-Ocarina of Time adult portions occur. Ganondorf I becomes Ganon and is sealed. Link is sent back in time.
-Ganondorf II is born.
-Ganon possesses Ganondorf II from inside the sacred realm and wreaks havoc upon Hyrule.
-Hyrule is sealed under an ocean.
-Link, the Hero of Winds is born.
-The Wind Waker occurs. Ganondorf II is killed. Ganon is resealed.
-The islands of the Great Sea conglomorate to form a new Hyrule. The Kingdom of Hyrule is refounded. The events of OoT and TWW are obscured by the passage of time and become legend.
-Ganondorf III is born.
-Link, the Hero of Light, is born.
-Four Swords occurs. Vaati is sealed.
-Ganon takes possession of Ganondorf III
-FSA occurs. Vaati is killed. Ganondorf III is killed. Ganon is resealed in the sacred realm.
Link, the Hero of the Essences of Time and Nature is born.
-Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages occur. Ganon is partially unsealed but is defeated by Link.
-Agahnim is born.
-Link, the Hero is born.
-Ganon takes possession of Agahnim.
-A Link to the Past occurs. Ganon is temporarily vanquished.
-Link's Awakening occurs.
-Link, the Wanderer is born.
-The Legend of Zelda occurs. Ganon is killed.
-The Adventure of Link occurs. Ganon's hordes fail to revive him.

Time Travel

To explain how I see the time travel in OoT, I think that there is one timeline, with two ways of looking at it. Here is the "subjective" view, from Link's Point of view; this is what we see in the game.

Link starts his journey.
He then pulls the Master Sword out of the Pedestal of Time.
Link sleeps for seven years under the watch of Rauru as Ganondorf takes over Hyrule.
Link awakens and eventually defeats Ganon. Zelda sends him back in time, where he arrives
Link arrives back in his own time in the ending scene of Ocarina of Time.
Link travels to Termina in Majora's Mask and his Triforce of Courage is split into eight pieces, scattered throughout Hyrule. It is not known whether he returned to Hyrule. Lots of time passes.
The people of Hyrule begin to rebuild an recover from Ganon's coup.

This is the objective view, what an observer (say, Zelda for instance) might see.

Link starts his journey.
He then pulls the Master Sword out of the Pedestal of Time.
Link arrives back in his own time in the ending scene of Ocarina of Time, immediately thereafter.
Link (a double) sleeps for seven years under the watch of Rauru as Ganondorf takes over Hyrule.
Link travels to Termina in Majora's Mask and his Triforce of Courage is split into eight pieces, scattered throughout Hyrule. It is not known whether he returned to Hyrule. Lots of time passes.
Link (the copy) awakens and eventually defeats Ganon. Zelda sends him back in time, where he arrives. There is no longetr a copy of Link.
The people of Hyrule begin to rebuild an recover from Ganon's coup.

Ganon and Ganondorf

FSA (HA) seems to imply that Ganondorf has been possesed by the spirit of Ganon. So, who is Ganon? I theorized that he's the original Ganondorf from OoT, and that every time we see him (or many times at least) it is a new Ganondorf, same Ganon. This explains why he is not trapped in the sacred realm in TWW, LoZ, et cetera.

I'm very open to comments, questions, et cetera.

#2 Husse

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 06:46 PM

I don't believe that the ALttP Link is the OoT link at all....but he DID return from Termina. We know that.

And, for crying out loud, ONE Ganondorf, can't see it any other way.

#3 Hero of Winds

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 07:21 PM

Unfortunately, I cannot form a rebuttal at this time, but I must say I am very impressed. You covered all your bases, and did so quite intelligently. Kudos, DA. :D

#4 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 08:19 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Husse+Sep 15 2004, 06:46 PM-->
QUOTE(Husse @ Sep 15 2004, 06:46 PM)
I don't believe that the ALttP Link is the OoT link at all
[/b][/quote]

I didn't say he was... I have them as being two totally different entities.

[quote]Originally posted by Husse@Sep 15 2004, 06:46 PM
....but he DID return from Termina. We know that.
[/quote]

How do we know this? Personally, I believe that he did, but there's really no solid grounds to make a claim.

#5 Reflectionist

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 08:41 PM

...There's something wrong with WW going before LttP... I just can't place it... oh yeah... the land...

#6 Hero of Winds

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 08:45 PM

Jeez, Reflectionist. The geography IS different between OoT and ALttP. If I were to place TWW between them, I would just say "the Great Sea was drained" to explain the similarities, yet differences, between the two Hyrules.

#7 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 15 September 2004 - 08:53 PM

I prefer the idea that the Deku Tree's forests eventually did what he intended them to do-- they spread the landmasses to form a single continent. Looking at the geography of HA, as compared to that of TWW and ALttP, I think it makes sense to say that FSA was after TWW but before ALttP.

#8 Husse

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:28 AM

I didn't say he was... I have them as being two totally different entities.


I know, I was concurring.

#9 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 10:45 AM

@Dirk Amoeba

-FSA occurs. Vaati is killed. Ganondorf III is killed. Ganon is resealed in the sacred realm.


Ganon was not sealed in the sacred realm at the end of FSA. He was sealed in the 4 sword. You may refute this by saying that the spirit of Ganon went to the sacred realm...while Ganon III was put in the four sword. This cannot be...cuz Ganon III (as you refer to him, but have him under a different #) is a reincarnation of the original Ganon or reborn...not just a body that is repossesed. Also, it clearly states that the Ganon in FSA is the reborn spirit of Ganondorf of the Gerudos, so that's canon. So your Ganon III is locked away in the FS not the SR.

In order for Ganon to be reborn or revived...he would of had to have been killed previously--you placed FSA somtime after TWW and before LTTP. I only recall Ganon dying in LTTP and LoZ--he was sealed in the other games, except TWW. In TWW he was turned to stone with the MS in his head...but we don't know if that killed him or if that was just another method of sealing him. Either way...you'd still have to explain how the Master Sword goes from the head of a petrified Gerudo, thousands of feet of water, changing geographies, and suddenly being in a pedestal in the lost woods in LTTP.

Now, that we have cleared up that Ganon is sealed in the four sword...how did he end up back in the sacred realm at the beginning of LTTP?

Those we just a few flaws I noticed in your theory (although there are others, but I don't feeling like writing...but we'll stick with these for now), but so far...not too shabby.

#10 Guest_Shadow_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 12:54 PM

-Link's Awakening occurs.
-Link, the Wanderer is born.
-The Legend of Zelda occurs. Ganon is killed.
-The Adventure of Link occurs. Ganon's hordes fail to revive him.


That doesn't line up to me. Link gets stranded on wind fish isle while crossing the sea AFTER he gets the raft in AoL.

#11 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 02:17 PM

Ganon was not sealed in the sacred realm at the end of FSA. He was sealed in the 4 sword.


To the best of my knowledge, we don't know that for certain. We just know that he was sealed by the Four Sword. If I missed something, could you point me toward a quote? I could have been distracted and missed some of the text in the ending scene.

Ganon III (as you refer to him, but have him under a different #) is a reincarnation of the original Ganon or reborn...not just a body that is repossesed. Also, it clearly states that the Ganon in FSA is the reborn spirit of Ganondorf of the Gerudos, so that's canon.


Same deal here... got a quote, or can you point me in its direction?

In TWW he was turned to stone with the MS in his head...but we don't know if that killed him or if that was just another method of sealing him.


You're absolutely right... we don't. But I don't need to, because this is a timeline theory and I have to make up some stuff. I made it up because I believe it makes sense. If something in a future game refutes what I have, I'll begin working on a way to change it. But in the absence of evidence, I had to fill in the blanks myself.

Either way...you'd still have to explain how the Master Sword goes from the head of a petrified Gerudo, thousands of feet of water, changing geographies, and suddenly being in a pedestal in the lost woods in LTTP.


Not to be rude, but... no I don't. I never said this timeline theory explains everything, but one could say that the MS was retrieved by divers or something. Remember, the flooded Hyrule is no longer under a barrier, so someone could so something similar to Link's Grappling hook and pull up the sword, gerudo and al. They could even carve the Ganon stone into a pedestal without having to remove the sword.

That doesn't line up to me. Link gets stranded on wind fish isle while crossing the sea AFTER he gets the raft in AoL.


... What makes you think this?

#12 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 02:41 PM

) (by Zelda in HA) Ganon was once Ganondorf of the Gerudo and he is the reborn form of an ancient demon


Zelda clearly states that Ganon is reborn...not repossed...two different different things.

Zelda then releases the ball of light
  while Ganon is down on one knee. Then the links fire an arrow through the ball
  of light which shoots it into Ganon. Ganon is then frozen within the ball of
  light and the six maidens surround him.  Zelda tells Link to hold the Four
  Sword above his head.
  "Gyaaaaaaa!  What...  What have you done?  I am the King of Darkness!  I
  Cannot be destroyed by insects like you!  Noooooooo!!!!!!!"
Ganon is then sucked into the Four Sword. Then the six maidens tell Link to place the Four Sword into the pedestal. At the shrine of the Four Sword the
four swords flies into the air and link and the sword both combine into one
again at the same time. Then the sword jams into the pedestal and the six
maidens return to there forms as fairies and put a barrier on the sword.


The above text is what happens scene by scene when Ganon is defeated and put into the FS...there's your proof there...if you don't believe that....then I suggest you go back and play the game. Once again, I ask you because this is your theory and you should back up your theory every time it gets refuted or questioned, how does Ganon go from being in the FS at the end of HA to being in the sacred realm at the beginning of LTTP? No right or wrong answers....

#13 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 04:30 PM

Zelda clearly states that Ganon is reborn...not repossed...two different different things.


Firstly, where, and secondly, how does she know? Just because a character states somethign does not mean that it can be accepted as canon.

The above text is what happens scene by scene when Ganon is defeated and put into the FS


No. The text is an account of what happens. There is no text in the game that says this, and what is stated as "Ganon is then sucked into the Four Sword" could otherwise be interpreted as Ganon being sealed in the Dark World/Sacred Realm by the Four Sword.

Once again, I ask you because this is your theory and you should back up your theory every time it gets refuted or questioned


Well, that's half true. Instead of backing it up, I could alter it. If you demonstrate to my satisfaction that I was wrong, then I'll go back and rethink instead of stubbornly defending it.

how does Ganon go from being in the FS at the end of HA to being in the sacred realm at the beginning of LTTP? No right or wrong answers....


Here is what I feel. Ganon (Ganondor I) was sealed away in the Dark World at the end of TWW, and Ganondorf II was left as a rock at the bottom of the Great Sea. Over time, Ganon's body was recovered, with the sword in it, and at some point Ganondorf II's body was fasioned into the stone pedestal in the Lost Woods. This could happen before or after HA, but I'll just say for the sake of argument that it was before.

Then, when HA occurs, the Four Sword acts as a gateway through which Ganon is sealed into the Dark World. This is now a barrier itself, but then a barrier is placed around the sword itself, making it double strength, if you will. Now, there are two sealed exits from the Sacred Realm/Dark World-- the Master Sword and the Four Sword, but the FS is a double barrier and is so strong that Ganon can forget about ever escaping through it.

#14 Doopliss

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 06:32 PM

It's good, but I don't think Link can be in two places at the same time.

#15 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 06:48 PM

Bulmaro, when Link gets the bow in the Forest Temple and eventually returns to the child time period, Link has the bow in his inventory. but it is also still in the forest temple because he will not go and get it for the next seven years. The bow is therefore in two places at the same time; why can't Link be?

In Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry experiences the same few hours twice, but to an onlooker it would appear that there are two Harrys at the same time. I don't know if you've read the book/seen the movie, but that is what I'm getting at.

Tri-Enforcer, I replayed that scene. Zelda comments that Ganon is an "ancient demon reborn," but in this context I think that reborn could simply mean returned. In TWW, Ganon says that link is the Hero of Time reborn, but I don't think that should be taken that literally either.

Regarding Ganon being sealed in the Four Sword, this is never stated. Ganon seems to partially dissolve as the smoke drains into the sword, and then there is a burst of light and he is gone as the ast smoke enters the sword. Why can't this simply mean that Ganon has been sealed in the Dark World, using the sword as a gateway?

#16 Doopliss

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Dirk Amoeba@Sep 16 2004, 06:48 PM
Bulmaro, when Link gets the bow in the Forest Temple and eventually returns to the child time period, Link has the bow in his inventory. but it is also still in the forest temple because he will not go and get it for the next seven years. The bow is therefore in two places at the same time; why can't Link be?

In Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry experiences the same few hours twice, but to an onlooker it would appear that there are two Harrys at the same time. I don't know if you've read the book/seen the movie, but that is what I'm getting at¨.

In my opinion the bow appears in the inventory just because the it's a way tell the player that Link has already got it. The theory which suggests that Link travels only consciously (in mind) is a little better in my opinion, it helps to fix a lot the problems with the items.

If you watch "The Time Machine" you'll understand the great mistake of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban's time travel mechanism. If you haven't had the opportunity to watch it I can explain you the movie's hypothesis if you want to.

#17 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:08 PM

Please do. I haven't seen it.

#18 Doopliss

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:22 PM

Of course, the movie's hypothesis suggests that you cannot change the past because if you changed it, since the purpose of the time-travel is to change the past, it would be not logical because you have already done it.

In other words: Link travels to change the past, he changes it, but then, what is he doing there if the purpose of the time-travel is to change it and he has already completed the purpose?

The book is very interesting too.

#19 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:48 PM

Harry Potter also says you cannot change the past. in Prisoner of Azkaban, Harry goes back and saves Buckbeak. He then realizes that what he had believed to be the sound of Buckbeak being beheaded was actually the sound of the executioner swinging the axe in disgust because Buckbeak had escaped. Things weren't changed, they were just experienced in two different ways. This is similar to (but not absolutely the same as) what I am saying happened in OoT.

#20 Doopliss

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 07:51 PM

This is almost the same case, why would Harry return to save Buckbeak if he already did it?

It always helps to think it alone for a small time.

#21 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 08:07 PM

Because he hadn't done it yet, from a subjective perspective. He did not realize that Buckbeack was saved. And even if he had, he wouldn't have known how. Harry only realizes the truth when he casts a Patronus Charm to save his past self. He comes to the realization that he had seen himself doing it, but not realizing that it was he who did it. Therefore, he sees the same moment from two differing perspectives. Nothing changes.

#22 Doopliss

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 08:13 PM

His perspective doesn't matter, he has already done it, so the book is not logical unless you involve multiple timelines.

#23 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 08:19 PM

Noo... you're wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument is that once you change the past, the desired change occurs, and the need to travel to the past is eliminated, so you never do, and the change never takes place.

But the problem here is this: Harry changes the past, and it's changed, so technically the need to go to the past is eliminated, but Harry never realizes this because he is knocked unconcious and does not find out that Buckbeak is alive and Sirus is safe. He only realizes that Buckbeak has been safe from the begining once he has already traveled back in time.

#24 Doopliss

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 08:22 PM

Yes, he doesn't know it, but as I said, I don't think that what he thinks or knows matters at all...

#25 Guest_Dirk Amoeba_*

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 08:23 PM

Then I am missing your point. Why, according to the theory you belive, would Harry and Hermione NOT go back in time?

#26 Doopliss

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Posted 16 September 2004 - 09:57 PM

They return in time, but a different timeline is created to fix the paradox. Otherwise the time-travel would lose its purpose. They can't be in the past because they can't be in two places at the same time because they cannot be choosing two different things at the same time.

#27 Tri-Enforcer

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Dirk Amoeba@Sep 16 2004, 05:48 PM
Tri-Enforcer, I replayed that scene. Zelda comments that Ganon is an "ancient demon reborn," but in this context I think that reborn could simply mean returned. In TWW, Ganon says that link is the Hero of Time reborn, but I don't think that should be taken that literally either.

Regarding Ganon being sealed in the Four Sword, this is never stated. Ganon seems to partially dissolve as the smoke drains into the sword, and then there is a burst of light and he is gone as the ast smoke enters the sword. Why can't this simply mean that Ganon has been sealed in the Dark World, using the sword as a gateway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If it were possible for Ganon to be revived or reborn in AoL and Oracles...then most likely, in context to Ganon, then that's what happens to him in FSA.

Long ago, in the kingdom of Hyrule, there appeared a Wind Sorcerer named Vaati. Vaati could bend the wind to his will. In his assaults on villages, Vaati would kidnap any beautiful girls who caught his eye.
 
        Many knights from the castle and other brave men set out to subdue the sorcerer and rescue the girls, but each one fell in to Vaati's power. Just as the people had begun to lose hope, a lone young boy traveling with just a sword at his side was seen.
 
        When this boy heard what was happening, he said, "I shall defeat this sorcerer." He entered Vaati's palace, and trapped the evil sorcerer inside the blade of his sword. He returned the young girls to their villages. The boy then went into the deep forest and was gone.


I'm sure you read that somewhere before....hmmm how about something called the "bactsory"? If Vaati can be sealed in the FS, then why can't Ganon be put in the FS? Think about it.... In HA there are several portals that are used throughout Hyrule to enter the Dark/Sacred Realm with the use of moonpearls...it wouldn't be smart to seal Ganon in the SR with so many portals opened. Also, there was never any mention about the FS being linked to the to SR or being a key to the SR. But in the above statement, which is canon (or am I not supposed to take the literally either?), there is mention of the FS being a seal in itself--Vaati was in it.

#28 31-Year-Old-From-Georgia

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 10:34 AM

No, a different reality is not created when Harry and Hermonie went back in time.There was Harry, Ron, and Hermonie, doing stuff and not realizing that another Harry and Hermonie were there the entire time. But when they went back in time, they realized that here was actually two of them and the time-traveling ones saved thier past selves, but the past selves had no idea they were doing it until they went back in time and saved their past selves, but the past selves had no idea they were doing it until they went back in time and saved their past selves, but the past selves had no idea they were doing it until they went back in time and saved their past selves and on and on. It's an endless cycle; it's doomed to happen.

#29 Doopliss

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 02:43 PM

Well, it's a book for children, we can't ask a lot.

#30 Hero of Winds

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 02:49 PM

That's a fairly good way to ignore the issue. Likewise, I could say OoT is only a video game so we shouldn't ask a lot about it's time travel.




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