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ST Hyrule - A challenge


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#31 Smertios

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:34 PM

Oh, btw, I did not reply to AG's posts that were pointed towards me because I'm having a really hard time arguing against things I agree with...

Except for the fact that I don't think the existence of the spirit tracks serve as a reason for LoZ not to follow it in the timeline (I do believe the old games can follow in the AT), I agree with everything else...

#32 Pinecove

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:54 PM

At everyone here speaking about technology:

"Regarding use of other forms in technology in the future, as long it adds to the overall game experience and is something we feel the player would enjoy, we wouldn't be afraid to implement it. As a matter of fact, we have used the Hook Shot in several previous games, which would be considered a very modern type of technology, even by today's standards. "


And LoZ also fell into an "age of chaos" or dark age. Such ages usually happen AFTER an age of glory. Look at rome's transition to the dark ages.

#33 Duke Serkol

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 07:10 PM

The lake labeled Lake Hylia in FSA is the lake at the bottom of the waterfall. Not the water in the crater. If you want to compare it to OoT, for example, we could say that the crater acts like Zora's Fountain...

Is that so? I'm pretty sure the it was the crater. But that's the way I've been seeing it anyway, so I'm more than happy to go with it. Even so though, Lake Hylia was below the Eastern Temple in ALttP whereas it is above it here.

I wasn't talking about the locations like the graveyard or the coastline. What I meant was that the land between LoZ's few key locations lacked detail. Speaking of detail, the mountains are only represented by generic rocky areas that don't indicate height or slope at all, the forests are bundles of green, etc. It's not like in OoT where we could tell that Lon Lon Ranch was on a hill or that the Gerudo Valley was particularly arid.

There is also a particularly arid location in LoZ. Anyway, yeah it may not be as detailed looking, but the places are there.

I doubt that they'd cover a fourth of ST's map in snow and ice based off of one location from LoZ.

Stranger things have happened.

I wasn't actually the person you're replying to; Ganonlord6000 mentioned the Spirit Tower.

Ah! Sorry, I was aware of that but messed up with the quotes.

Regardless, we have no reason to believe that it was destroyed by a natural disaster, and we see no sign of it in LoZ or AoL.

Nor are the Tower of Hera and the Castle, yet people often suppose that LoZ happens after ALttP.

#34 Average Gamer

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 07:22 PM

There is also a particularly arid location in LoZ.


LoZ supposedly has a desert, but I've never been able to really make out where it is on the map.

Anyway, yeah it may not be as detailed looking, but the places are there.


It may have some places, but this AoL-ST comparison really doesn't rely on lining up key locations.

Stranger things have happened.


Such as?

Also, the graveyard doesn't look even remotely frigid on the AoL map.

Nor are the Tower of Hera and the Castle, yet people often suppose that LoZ happens after ALttP.


The Tower of Hera was (if I recall correctly) an old, abandoned military post that presumably went down when Ganon set up shop on Death Mountain. Hyrule Castle was likely Ganon's main target in the invasion and obliterated, with the royal family living in or near the North Palace in AoL.

I have to go for a second. Sorry for the rushed post.

Edited by Average Gamer, 04 April 2010 - 07:54 PM.


#35 Duke Serkol

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 09:02 PM

LoZ supposedly has a desert, but I've never been able to really make out where it is on the map.

Nah, it's too small to be a desert, I just write it off as an arido location or small wasteland.

It may have some places, but this AoL-ST comparison really doesn't rely on lining up key locations.

The twin lakes, the forests, the coastline (I count it as a location), Spectacle Rock and the maze-like set of caves going through the large area AoL dedicates to Death Mountain.

Stranger things have happened.

Such as?

A train in a fantasy game. A villain that looks and behaves pretty much like Ganon but isn't Ganon. A map that you have to rotate according to some random arrow for it to align to previous maps. Anything Tingle... I could go on.

Also, the graveyard doesn't look even remotely frigid on the AoL map.

Of course it doesn't, how many times do I have to say that I ascribe the color it had i LoZ to a technical limitation??

The Tower of Hera was (if I recall correctly) an old, abandoned military post that presumably went down when Ganon set up shop on Death Mountain. Hyrule Castle was likely Ganon's main target in the invasion and obliterated, with the royal family living in or near the North Palace in AoL.

That sort of theorizing works for the Tower of Spirits as well.

I have to go for a second. Sorry for the rushed post.

No problem.

#36 Average Gamer

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 12:55 AM

Nah, it's too small to be a desert, I just write it off as an arido location or small wasteland.


Nonetheless, the map is so undetailed that I can't spot said region.

The twin lakes, the forests, the coastline (I count it as a location), Spectacle Rock and the maze-like set of caves going through the large area AoL dedicates to Death Mountain.


That's not what I meant. Those aren't named, important locations such as Kakariko, Lake Hylia, etc. The forests and coastlines could easily be unrelated, especially considering how poorly they match up. I really didn't see a true Spectacle Rock on the ST map, and caves in mountains aren't unheard of.

A train in a fantasy game. A villain that looks and behaves pretty much like Ganon but isn't Ganon. A map that you have to rotate according to some random arrow for it to align to previous maps. Anything Tingle... I could go on.


With the exception of the third instance (which is flawed in its own right), none of those actually relate to this situation. Never has Nintendo done anything like drastically altering a quarter of an entire game's map based off of a color scheme in one region.

Of course it doesn't, how many times do I have to say that I ascribe the color it had i LoZ to a technical limitation??


I mean that it didn't even have white colors on AoL's map. That makes it even more unlikely that the graveyard inspired ST's snowy region.

That sort of theorizing works for the Tower of Spirits as well.


The Tower of Spirits was actually relevant (worth repairing) unlike the Tower of Hera, and Hyrule Castle would be a bigger target anyway. In the event of the Tower of Spirits being destroyed, the people would have a reason to rebuild it; the Tower of Hera would have done nothing for them, and the royal family could have just stayed in the North Palace.

#37 CID Farwin

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 10:54 AM

grrr...

GRRRR...

I see it.

Crap.

They're at least as similar as the Oracle maps.

Actually, you know what I see more?

Posted Image
Now flip ST's map back.

(I'm not posting that since I can't find a convenient one)

*twitch*

Why did you have to get me going looking at maps?! :deadlink:

#38 Duke Serkol

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 01:23 PM

The twin lakes, the forests, the coastline (I count it as a location), Spectacle Rock and the maze-like set of caves going through the large area AoL dedicates to Death Mountain.

That's not what I meant. Those aren't named, important locations such as Kakariko, Lake Hylia, etc.

So if it's not named then it's not there?

The forests and coastlines could easily be unrelated, especially considering how poorly they match up.


They seem to match up pretty well to me.

I really didn't see a true Spectacle Rock on the ST map, and caves in mountains aren't unheard of.

Refer to the crop I posted for Spectacle Rock.
As for the caves, yeah they are certainly not uncommon, but the long stretch of maze like caves seen in AoL was pretty unique until now.

With the exception of the third instance (which is flawed in its own right), none of those actually relate to this situation.

I didn't say "stranger things have happened which relate to this situation". There's a first for everything you know ;)

Never has Nintendo done anything like drastically altering a quarter of an entire game's map

Well, they made a game that at first was pretty obviously set up to look like it was enacting the backstory of its predecessor, then all but made it impossible for this to be the case.
Nintendo isn't exactly the encyclopedia picture for consistency.

The Tower of Spirits was actually relevant (worth repairing) unlike the Tower of Hera, and Hyrule Castle would be a bigger target anyway. In the event of the Tower of Spirits being destroyed, the people would have a reason to rebuild it; the Tower of Hera would have done nothing for them, and the royal family could have just stayed in the North Palace.

The Tower of the Spirits was used to keep Malladus sealed. Ganon fearing that it may be used against him in the same fashion completely annihilated it. There, a fanon explanation as valid as those that have been provided for the disappearence of the Castle and the Tower of Hera.

grrr...

GRRRR...

I see it.

Crap.

They're at least as similar as the Oracle maps.

Glad someone else shares my sentiments on the matter.

Actually, you know what I see more?

That map wasn't made by Nintendo, it was made by Valiant comics.
But admittedly, stretching the LoZ map horizontally like they did (except not to -that- extent) helps the comparison.

Now flip ST's map back.

If you did that, the twinlakes wouldn't match (which is what got me started with this in the first place).

Edited by Duke Serkol, 05 April 2010 - 06:15 PM.


#39 Person

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 03:29 PM


For example, analyzing Death Mountain in OoT and LttP. First we look at the name. They match.


Although I agree with what you're saying, isn't it called 'Mt. Hebra' in the Light World of ALttP? I'm pretty sure it's only called Death Mountain in the Dark World. But I'm just splitting hairs, here.

"Mt. Hebra" refers to the screwy hill that you have to keep walking up in LoZ and FSA. I think the mountain range itself is still called Death Mountain. At least in the English version. Haven't checked on the Japanese one. Might be different there.

#40 ganonlord6000

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 04:08 PM

Is ST Hyrule ever refered to as "Hyrule"? LOZ is definitely in old Hyrule.


The Tower of the Spirits was used to keep Malladus sealed. Ganon fearing that it may be used against him in the same fashion completely annihilated it. There, a fanon explanation as valid as those that have been provided for the disappearence of the Castle and the Tower of Hera.




Wasn't that tower built BECAUSE of Malladus? The disappearances of the castle is easily explained because it could be rebuilt somewhere elas as TP shows. And the Tower of Hera was only a single dungeon that only appeared in ONE game. There is always a temple on death mountain. Why don't we stop trying to allign ST's map to other maps when there aren't any permant monuments from other games to base it on? (i.e. Death Mountain, the Temple of Time) We easily see a few lakes and rivers in the games, but they aren't that important. Seriously. There is no way ST can possibly be the Hyrule from the old games. ST made that pretty clear, and so did TWW.



#41 Duke Serkol

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 04:37 PM

Is ST Hyrule ever refered to as "Hyrule"?

Yes, yes it is.

There is always a temple on death mountain.

And there isn't one in ST? <_<

Why don't we stop trying to allign ST's map to other maps when there aren't any permant monuments from other games to base it on?

Because I'm not the only one who sees the resemblance.

This thread is about disproving that ST Hyrule can be intended as being the same Hyrule of LoZ/AoL based on geography.
Posting just to say "They are not because the story says so" (we all are well aware of it. It's why I want it disproven in the first place), or "They are not because these maps don't have clearly labeled features to be matched up" (we know that too, and yet some of us are seeing the similarity nonetheless) does not really help debunking it.
It's pretty much the same as saying "They are not because they are not."
What we need is posts like those of Average Gamer, Smertios and Destiny, that actually argue about specific points brought up by the comparison.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 05 April 2010 - 04:38 PM.


#42 Pinecove

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 04:48 PM

"Mt. Hebra" refers to the screwy hill that you have to keep walking up in LoZ and FSA. I think the mountain range itself is still called Death Mountain. At least in the English version. Haven't checked on the Japanese one. Might be different there.


Nono. That's "Hebra's hill" in FSA and "The lost hills" in LoZ.
The mountain in ALttP is called Mount Hebra.

LOZ is definitely in old Hyrule.

Proof?

I have something I want to share, but I'll get back with the map comparisons later. I have to cook right now.

#43 ganonlord6000

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 04:52 PM

"Mt. Hebra" refers to the screwy hill that you have to keep walking up in LoZ and FSA. I think the mountain range itself is still called Death Mountain. At least in the English version. Haven't checked on the Japanese one. Might be different there.


Nono. That's "Hebra's hill" in FSA and "The lost hills" in LoZ.
The mountain in ALttP is called Mount Hebra.

LOZ is definitely in old Hyrule.

Proof?

I have something I want to share, but I'll get back with the map comparisons later. I have to cook right now.


ALTTP is a prequel to LOZ. And we just reaffirmed that. I'm not even going to begin map comparisons there! Now, I'll go back to playing AST.

#44 Pinecove

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 05:07 PM

ALttP is a prequel to LoZ, I never denied that.

Where is the 100% definite proof that ALttP comes on the CT? Unless you can provide a developer statement, it's not absolute.

#45 ganonlord6000

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 05:10 PM

ALttP is a prequel to LoZ, I never denied that.

Where is the 100% definite proof that ALttP comes on the CT? Unless you can provide a developer statement, it's not absolute.



We don't need a developer's statement because it is pretty obvious (though it would help). Look at the Master Sword location in TP, compare it to its location in ALTTP, and then say there isn't any proof.

Edited by ganonlord6000, 05 April 2010 - 05:10 PM.


#46 Average Gamer

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 05:26 PM

So if it's not named then it's not there?


No, but they aren't important, relevant locations. Without specific, labeled areas to use for these comparisons, there are really no credible landmarks. The rivers could easily be different, especially since they don't follow the same paths. The forests do not need to be the same either, as there is a massive difference in the number of trees and the shapes of the forests don't even match.

Considering the massive differences between the maps and the absence of reliable, important locations (Kakariko, Zora's Domain, etc.) we have no reason to believe that those maps were meant to resemble each other. This comparison also blatantly ignores the clearly labeled alignment of ST's land.

They seem to match up pretty well to me.


Not to me.

Refer to the crop I posted for Spectacle Rock.


I didn't see two rocks side by side; at best two stones lined up diagonally.

As for the caves, yeah they are certainly not uncommon, but the long stretch of maze like caves seen in AoL was pretty unique until now.


Unique? Didn't ALttP also feature a great number of mountainous caves? Then came OoT, which essentially had two dungeons within said caves, a third at the base of the range (Shadow Temple) and Goron City. Dragon Roost Island had to be scaled through a series of caves and caverns to reach Valoo, and TP further elaborated on the idea of these caves.

I didn't say "stranger things have happened which relate to this situation". There's a first for everything you know


Your argument still does not really apply. The trains and Tingle were simply original creations of Nintendo that weren't problematic, the map rotation was always strange and unlikely, and Malladus being similar to Ganon just means that more than one greedy SoB isn't unheard of.

Well, they made a game that at first was pretty obviously set up to look like it was enacting the backstory of its predecessor, then all but made it impossible for this to be the case.


Those are major story issues that needed to be resolved, not a radical gameplay change influenced by something freakishly minor as you suggest.

The Tower of the Spirits was used to keep Malladus sealed. Ganon fearing that it may be used against him in the same fashion completely annihilated it.


And just how would Ganon learn of this, especially if he appears to have been a demon all along in LoZ and not native to Hyrule? Even then, the people could have at least made an attempt to rebuild the Tower of Spirits in the six years between LoZ and AoL.

Duke, I didn't say the last two quotes from your post; that was CID Farwin.

#47 Duke Serkol

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 06:15 PM

No, but they aren't important, relevant locations. Without specific, labeled areas to use for these comparisons, there are really no credible landmarks. The rivers could easily be different, especially since they don't follow the same paths.

We aren't comparing rivers though.
Actually it's surprising how ST pretty much has no rivers. I think that's a first and I hadn't even really noticed that.

The forests do not need to be the same either, as there is a massive difference in the number of trees and the shapes of the forests don't even match.


The shapes do not match, but their locations relative to the places that do match can be used as indication.
Like how the smaller like on AoL's map had no name but is typically assumed to be ALttP's Lake Hylia due to its position on the map.

Considering the massive differences between the maps and the absence of reliable, important locations (Kakariko, Zora's Domain, etc.) we have no reason to believe that those maps were meant to resemble each other. This comparison also blatantly ignores the clearly labeled alignment of ST's land.

They seem to match up pretty well to me.

Not to me.

Well, if you feel that way so strongly then there's no point for you to continue this debate I guess. It's a pity because you were doing very well.

Also about the alignment of the land... would I be correct to say that everyone here agrees that to make ALttP and OoT match one has to be rotated 45°? Well if we agree on that, then how about we rotate ALttP instead of OoT? After all, has it's been brought up, the position of the sun in both games seem to suggest that OoT is the one that's aligned to the true north, right?
But then, if LoZ and AoL go by the same alignment as ALttP, we will have to rotate those too by 45° right?
Once we do this, the ST map only needs to be rotated 45° as well in the opposite direction to match AoL's map as in the comparison I posted.

I didn't see two rocks side by side; at best two stones lined up diagonally.

They are round, how do you tell?

Unique? Didn't ALttP also feature a great number of mountainous caves? Then came OoT, which essentially had two dungeons within said caves

But it's not the same thing. In all those games we only see one side of the mountain, the caves never go through to the other.
In AoL the whole section is strictly top viewed so that it appears to stretch for a far greater extension, and in order to get from one end of it to the otehr, we have to go through a series of caves.
This gives the map a unique look which resembles the large stretch of mountainous land seen in ST and the maze like structure is also mimicked in looks and function near the desert.

Those are major story issues that needed to be resolved, not a radical gameplay change influenced by something freakishly minor as you suggest.

...what?
Gameplay change?

And just how would Ganon learn of this, especially if he appears to have been a demon all along in LoZ and not native to Hyrule? Even then, the people could have at least made an attempt to rebuild the Tower of Spirits in the six years between LoZ and AoL.

This is pointless. We can make up all the fanon we want but it won't really help us deal with geography issues.
Ganon is Ganon, he doesn't need a reason to do outrageous things like destroying the Tower of the Spirits and even if the people wanted to rebuild it after he was dealt with, they may not know how.

Duke, I didn't say the last two quotes from your post; that was CID Farwin.

Crud. I did it again. I'm sorry v_v"

Edited by Duke Serkol, 06 April 2010 - 06:39 PM.


#48 Average Gamer

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 07:15 PM

We aren't comparing rivers though.


I messed up; I meant the bodies of water. They don't have a similar shape and the water at the bottom of the AoL map connects to the ocean, whereas the water in ST's forest area appears to be a large lake or a series of them. The AoL map also lacks the numerous islands that we can see on the ST map.

The shapes do not match, but their locations relative to the places that do match can be used as indication.


Hardly. The AoL forests are tucked into the mountains and next to the coast with a good deal of barren land between them. In contrast, the ST forest/grassy area is much larger, not tucked into a mountain, and there are only a few barren spots in the region.

Like how the smaller like on AoL's map had no name but is typically assumed to be ALttP's Lake Hylia due to its position on the map.


However, because it's unnamed, we can't actually call it Lake Hylia.

Also about the alignment of the land... would I be correct to say that everyone here agrees that to make ALttP and OoT match one has to be rotated 45?


Even without the rotation, the locations still share names and match up well enough.

After all, has it's been brought up, the position of the sun in both games seem to suggest that OoT is the one that's aligned to the true north, right?


Kakariko's labeled weathervane blatantly contradicts the Dark World's sun though, so Nintendo probably just goofed up with the Dark World.

Once we do this, the ST map only needs to be rotated 45 as well in the opposite direction to match AoL's map as in the comparison I posted.


If you rotated both maps clockwise by 45 degrees they still wouldn't match up, not to mention the other problems. If you rotated one map in one direction and the second in the other, then that'd just be a total mess.

They are round, how do you tell?


I can clearly see that none of the rocks are side by side. Also, they aren't the same size either.

I'm not sure what the rocks being round has to do with anything. Why don't you label the stones you believe form Spectacle Rock in ST to clear things up?

But it's not the same thing. In all those games we only see one side of the mountain, the caves never go through to the other.


Yet we see a series of deep, winding tunnels within the mountains regardless. Also, one tunnel in Goron City appears to have stretched all the way to the Lost Woods, meaning that the tunnels do indeed go far, even exiting the Death Mountain range.

This gives the map a unique look which resembles the large stretch of mountainous land seen in ST and the maze like structure is also mimicked in looks and function near the desert.


Do the ST tunnels take Link higher up the mountain by any chance? There doesn't appear to be any shift in elevation in AoL.

...what?
Gameplay change?


Making a fourth of the world map arctic simply because LoZ's graveyard had white walls and trees.

Ganon is Ganon, he doesn't need a reason to do outrageous things like destroying the Tower of the Spirits and even if the people wanted to rebuild it after he was dealt with, they may not know how.


There appears to be a good deal of magic going around in LoZ and AoL for potential repairs, which is not the case with ST. Also, with at least a hundred years to observe the Spirit Tracks and build trains, the people may have been capable of creating their own tracks anyway.

#49 Pinecove

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 07:25 PM

We don't need a developer's statement because it is pretty obvious (though it would help). Look at the Master Sword location in TP, compare it to its location in ALTTP, and then say there isn't any proof.


I never said there wasn't proof. But what you're doing right now, is blindly stating that something HAS to be so when we have NO official confirmation of that. YES I agree that ALttP most likely comes on the CT, but that is NOT fact.

#50 Duke Serkol

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 07:18 PM

I meant the bodies of water. They don't have a similar shape and the water at the bottom of the AoL map connects to the ocean, whereas the water in ST's forest area appears to be a large lake or a series of them.

The (twin)lake there looks the same, it just doesn't have a river going out.
It doesn't have one going in on the AoL map while it did in the LoZ one, yet it clearly is the same lake.

The AoL map also lacks the numerous islands that we can see on the ST map.

The ocean land wouldn't have been of much interet without a few islands.

The AoL forests are tucked into the mountains and next to the coast with a good deal of barren land between them. In contrast, the ST forest/grassy area is much larger, not tucked into a mountain, and there are only a few barren spots in the region.

I said before that the barren land in LoZ/AoL wouldn't come back since it never has in any successive Hyrule. The place has unfailingly been verdant since ALttP.
As for the forests, I see one southwest and one southeast, with the twinlake inbetween, as it was in LoZ (on the map of which that of AoL was based). That's good enough for a comparison.

Like how the smaller lake on AoL's map had no name but is typically assumed to be ALttP's Lake Hylia due to its position on the map.

However, because it's unnamed, we can't actually call it Lake Hylia.

Still, most people who make LoZ-ALttP comparisons agree that it most likely is.

Also about the alignment of the land... would I be correct to say that everyone here agrees that to make ALttP and OoT match one has to be rotated 45?

Even without the rotation, the locations still share names and match up well enough.

You're avoiding the question. I asked if everyone here is ok with it, not if they deem it absolutely necessary.

If you rotated both maps clockwise by 45 degrees they still wouldn't match up, not to mention the other problems. If you rotated one map in one direction and the second in the other, then that'd just be a total mess.

The idea is to rotate the ALttP map 45 clockwise to be in agreement to OoT, then do the same to the LoZ map (and consequiently that of AoL) so it stays consistent with that ALttP.
At this point, if we consider that of OoT as the established true north, we only have to rotate the ST map 45 counterclockwise to compare it with the map of AoL.
That seems logical enough to me (so long as we do assume that OoT is the one that is aligned with the true north).

I can clearly see that none of the rocks are side by side.

They may not be on the map, but while on the train, it depends on the perspective you watch them from.

Also, they aren't the same size either.

I just checked and I'm pretty sure they are.

Why don't you label the stones you believe form Spectacle Rock in ST to clear things up?

It's the two closer rocks in the crop. I dunno how to be clearer than that.

Yet we see a series of deep, winding tunnels within the mountains regardless.

But they stay underground. We are interested in the above ground. In all games but AoL and ST the mountain appears tall steep but mostly stretching horizontally across the map. In those two games instead is stretches in all directions, almost in a squared shape.

Also, one tunnel in Goron City appears to have stretched all the way to the Lost Woods, meaning that the tunnels do indeed go far, even exiting the Death Mountain range.

Given the sound effect we hear and the incredible distance traveled I always assumed those passages to be magical.

Do the ST tunnels take Link higher up the mountain by any chance? There doesn't appear to be any shift in elevation in AoL.

No they don't.

Making a fourth of the world map arctic simply because LoZ's graveyard had white walls and trees.

Oh that... well, lots of people assume that the wasteland in LoZ (the one you can't pinpoint) corresponds to the ruins around Eastern Temple in ALttP.

There appears to be a good deal of magic going around in LoZ and AoL for potential repairs, which is not the case with ST. Also, with at least a hundred years to observe the Spirit Tracks and build trains, the people may have been capable of creating their own tracks anyway.

I won't discuss fanon any further. Suffice to say that for every fanon reason I can think for the Tower to be gone you can't think of one for it to be there and viceversa.

#51 Average Gamer

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 08:48 PM

The (twin)lake there looks the same, it just doesn't have a river going out.


The lakes don't really come close to having the same shape. Furthermore, one lake being landlocked while the other connects to the ocean is a major difference.

It doesn't have one going in on the AoL map while it did in the LoZ one


Isn't that the AoL map though? Your statement is unclear.

The ocean land wouldn't have been of much interet without a few islands.


That still doesn't change the fact that ST's map features numerous islands that AoL's map completely lacks.

I said before that the barren land in LoZ/AoL wouldn't come back since it never has in any successive Hyrule. The place has unfailingly been verdant since ALttP.


However, TP's Hyrule was relatively dry and had short and/or yellow grass in a number of places. Regardless, the blatant lack of a woodland in AoL's map harms the AoL-ST comparison either way.

As for the forests, I see one southwest and one southeast, with the twinlake inbetween, as it was in LoZ (on the map of which that of AoL was based). That's good enough for a comparison.


I hardly see any sort of resemblance, not to mention that two separate forests and a large patch of barren land is hardly similar to a giant grassland and a wide forest. Besides, ST's forest region isn't tucked into a mountain like LoZ/AoL's southwest forest is.

Still, most people who make LoZ-ALttP comparisons agree that it most likely is.


It is still a shaky assumption at best.

You're avoiding the question.


I answered by saying that the maps already match up without the need for map rotation. Even with the rotation, the Lost Woods becomes an issue.

The idea is to rotate the ALttP map 45 clockwise to be in agreement to OoT, then do the same to the LoZ map (and consequiently that of AoL) so it stays consistent with that ALttP.
At this point, if we consider that of OoT as the established true north, we only have to rotate the ST map 45 counterclockwise to compare it with the map of AoL.


Why rotate the ST map counterclockwise? Shouldn't it be rotated clockwise like the other maps? Either way, the weathervane in ALttP's Kakariko harms the "true north" theory.

They may not be on the map, but while on the train, it depends on the perspective you watch them from.


Yet it appears that the necessary perspectives would clash with the argued rotation of the ST map. Furthermore, the proposed rocks in ST are not the same size.

I just checked and I'm pretty sure they are.


They don't look like it on the map. Speaking of which, one of Spectacle Rock's features in the series is that, when on the map, the stones are always side by side; they weren't aligned top to bottom or diagonally.

But they stay underground.


Wouldn't the AoL and ST tunnels also be underground, as they'd be underneath the mountain(s)?

Given the sound effect we hear and the incredible distance traveled I always assumed those passages to be magical.


Saria's Song appears to echo through it though, and a similar sound effect is made when Link goes from Zora's Domain to Lake Hylia and vice versa. It's probably a shortcut sound effect more than anything.

Oh that... well, lots of people assume that the wasteland in LoZ (the one you can't pinpoint) corresponds to the ruins around Eastern Temple in ALttP.


I find that unlikely as well. Please highlight where the LoZ wasteland is supposed to be.

Even if you want to drop the discussion regarding the Spirit Tower and Spirit Tracks, the point raised about magic still stands. LoZ and AoL Hyrule feature plenty of magic, whereas ST's Hyrule does not.

#52 Duke Serkol

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 08:35 PM

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
The lakes don't really come close to having the same shape.[/quote]
I don't really know how to reply to this anymore. It's the same squished S shape.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
Furthermore, one lake being landlocked while the other connects to the ocean is a major difference.[/quote]
It also is a huge difference then if the lake as an inbound river coming from a waterfall, but everyone agrees it's the same lake seen in LoZ:
Posted Image

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
That still doesn't change the fact that ST's map features numerous islands that AoL's map completely lacks.[/quote]
Yes, I believe those were added in order to make the area more interesting, but it certainly is something that is not found in the NES map.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']the blatant lack of a woodland in AoL's map harms the AoL-ST comparison either way.[/quote]
So long as we agree that it also harms a LoZ/AoL ALttP comparison then yeah, it does.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']I hardly see any sort of resemblance, not to mention that two separate forests and a large patch of barren land is hardly similar to a giant grassland and a wide forest. Besides, ST's forest region isn't tucked into a mountain like LoZ/AoL's southwest forest is.[/quote]
Two forests, there's also that around the Snow Temple. I don't believe I can change your mind about it, but for what it's worth, said second forest is just as tucked into a corner of mountains (or hills) as the one in AoL.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
I answered by saying that the maps already match up without the need for map rotation. Even with the rotation, the Lost Woods becomes an issue.
...
Either way, the weathervane in ALttP's Kakariko harms the "true north" theory.[/quote][/quote]
Ah, so the answer is "No, I don't submit to the theory that OoT is roated when compared to ALttP"?
I see. I'm not going to try and persuade you of that one, I'm sure you've been on many other topics on the subject.
But as for the Lost Woods, those aren't really a problem since that isn't so much a name as it is a status. We learn that in FSA from the Deku Scrubs.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']Why rotate the ST map counterclockwise? Shouldn't it be rotated clockwise like the other maps?[/quote]
Because that's the way it apparently needs to be rotated to have a significant match with the other maps. You'd have to ask the programmers why they made it like this, I'm just trying to figure it out.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
Yet it appears that the necessary perspectives would clash with the argued rotation of the ST map.[/quote]
True, yes.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
Furthermore, the proposed rocks in ST are not the same size.[/quote]
Doesn't seem like that to me.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']Wouldn't the AoL and ST tunnels also be underground, as they'd be underneath the mountain(s)?[/quote]
Are you being difficult for the sake of being difficult? Just look at the AoL map. There is a maze of caves that you have to navigate by entering one after the other. You don't enter once and find yourself right at your destination, you have to go underground several times.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
Saria's Song appears to echo through it though, and a similar sound effect is made when Link goes from Zora's Domain to Lake Hylia and vice versa. It's probably a shortcut sound effect more than anything.[/quote]
You think? T me those things only seem to further hint at th magical properties of the passage. But eh.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
[quote name='Duke Serkol']Oh that... well, lots of people assume that the wasteland in LoZ (the one you can't pinpoint) corresponds to the ruins around Eastern Temple in ALttP.[/quote]
I find that unlikely as well. Please highlight where the LoZ wasteland is supposed to be.[/quote]
Look at the LoZ map I linked above. See where it says "Level 2"? the wasteland is made up of those four empty squares just northwest of it, as well as the one with rock marked by a "?" and the screen on the other end, above the enclosed pond.
It's six screens total, not even filling a 2x4 block.
On this drawn map you can't see it, but in the game those screens have sandy ground.

[quote name='Average Gamer' date='07 April 2010 - 03:48 AM' timestamp='1270604936' post='517042']
Even if you want to drop the discussion regarding the Spirit Tower and Spirit Tracks, the point raised about magic still stands. LoZ and AoL Hyrule feature plenty of magic, whereas ST's Hyrule does not.
[/quote]
If you mean the spells in AoL, then that is more magic that Link has ever had in any other game. We can't use that as evidence for a pre-OoT placement, can we? (I mean, it's a whoopin' 8 spells in AoL versus only 3 in OoT)

#53 Average Gamer

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:03 PM

I don't really know how to reply to this anymore. It's the same squished S shape.


I'm not really seeing it. ST's lake has a relatively unique shape and, as I said earlier, may even be a cluster of lakes.

It also is a huge difference then if the lake as an inbound river coming from a waterfall, but everyone agrees it's the same lake seen in LoZ:


While that is odd, the fact that both maps depict the lake connecting to the ocean suggests that said feature is a definitive trait of said lake. Heck, the fact that it connects to the ocean might even lead some to argue that it's a bay.

Yes, I believe those were added in order to make the area more interesting, but it certainly is something that is not found in the NES map.


But in comparisons like these you can't wave away such blatant contradictions between maps with "added for interest". ST features a host of islands; AoL only has the sea.

Two forests, there's also that around the Snow Temple. I don't believe I can change your mind about it, but for what it's worth, said second forest is just as tucked into a corner of mountains (or hills) as the one in AoL.


If you're talking about the tiny patch of green near the top of ST's map between the snow and mountain areas, keep in mind that it's above and to the right of the large forest and most of the other forests, not to mention that other groups of trees are hovering around it. Also, on the rotated image of ST's map, the forest is more vertical than horizontal, whereas the AoL forest tucked into the mountains is more horizontal than vertical.

But as for the Lost Woods, those aren't really a problem since that isn't so much a name as it is a status. We learn that in FSA from the Deku Scrubs.


A gigantic forest is randomly vanishing though, along with the Kokiri. The Eastern Palace area also looks quite dry.

Because that's the way it apparently needs to be rotated to have a significant match with the other maps.


How so?

Doesn't seem like that to me.


One of the stones looks slightly larger than the other to me. They also seem to be shaded differently, further clashing with the "pair of identical rocks" idea that defines Spectacle Rock.

There is a maze of caves that you have to navigate by entering one after the other. You don't enter once and find yourself right at your destination, you have to go underground several times.


I misunderstood what you meant. Even then, other games in the series have forced Link to go into caves several times to get where he needs to go.

Look at the LoZ map I linked above. See where it says "Level 2"? the wasteland is made up of those four empty squares just northwest of it, as well as the one with rock marked by a "?" and the screen on the other end, above the enclosed pond.
It's six screens total, not even filling a 2x4 block.
On this drawn map you can't see it, but in the game those screens have sandy ground.


I've found the region now, and to be honest I really don't see any solid connection to the Eastern Palace area. Wouldn't the sand make it closer to a desert anyway?

If you mean the spells in AoL, then that is more magic that Link has ever had in any other game. We can't use that as evidence for a pre-OoT placement, can we? (I mean, it's a whoopin' 8 spells in AoL versus only 3 in OoT)


To be fair, OoT Link also had the three elemental arrows and ten ocarina songs as well. Either way, LoZ/AoL Hyrule seems to have magic to spare, whereas ST Hyrule doesn't.

In addition to magic, Old Hyrule appears to have been the only place connected to the Sacred Realm; when it was erased, so was any chance of the Sacred Realm being accessed. Since it's most likely that the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm after Daphnes wished on it in TWW, it would forever be out of reach. However, the Triforce is clearly in Hyrule during LoZ and AoL.

#54 CID Farwin

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Posted 08 April 2010 - 05:02 PM

As this debate has gone the way of any other geography debate, I will respond directly to the original post:

So guys... I've been gone for a while, but it appears to me that the general consensus in these parts is for ST to not be followed by any games previously released, right?

That is what I desperately want to believe as well. I mean, it's set in a Hyrule that because of the background story shouldn't possibly be the one seen in OoT (which, I assume, pretty much everyone here believes to be the same as all other games except ST, as I would like to) and it has more advanced technology than any other game set in Hyrule we've seen so far (except for the Oocca in TP, but they don't count).

That about sums it up, doesn't it?

Then please, do your best to utterly destroy this abominable comparison that I couldn't stop myself from creating, as it is tormenting me!


Tell me how this can not possibly imply any developer intent to suggest that the new Hyrule of ST is the same as the one we saw in the NES games.
Because I can't shake the feeling that this is the only conclusion this comparison allows me to draw, and I loathe it with my entire being.
I've created countless comparisons between the maps of LoZ-AoL and those of the other games (ALttP especially) and I would hate for ST Hyrule to retcon the NES Hyrule as a different Hyrule than those of the other games. But that just seems to be what it's been made to do :(

...oh and I realize a lot of people will write it off as "lolgeography". I'm asking those that do concern themselves (even if marginally) with geography to try and destroy this monstrosity.

Sadly, and as much as I am loathe to admit so, I cannot destroy this comparison without also destroying other comparisons and arguments I have made (and still hold) between games. However, I would like to emphasize 2 points of interest, and hope it gives you some semblance of comfort:

1) Even if this is correct, and ST shares geography with AoL (and by extention LoZ and the rest of the games set in Hyrule) That does not prove anything other than the fact that they share the same geographic location. For the people who put all the older games on the Child Timeline, this should be inconsequential.

2) As far as I know, Spirit Tracks does nothing to solve problems already present in having those games on the Adult Timeline (namely, the lack of the Triforce, Ganon, and the Master Sword) aside from (possibly) reviving Hyrule. The only games that conceivably could follow are ones which do not feature these problematic absences (such as TMC, which creates its own problems being there).

Aside: I am actually working on an article which details an odd thought which I have had, inspired by this thread, in which geography doesn't change all that drastically, but instead what is shown of 'Hyrule' changes. The games simply take place in different parts of the land.

#55 Duke Serkol

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 07:20 PM

It also is a huge difference then if the lake as an inbound river coming from a waterfall, but everyone agrees it's the same lake seen in LoZ:

While that is odd, the fact that both maps depict the lake connecting to the ocean suggests that said feature is a definitive trait of said lake.

The similarity there is more remarkable than the difference.

But in comparisons like these you can't wave away such blatant contradictions between maps with "added for interest". ST features a host of islands; AoL only has the sea.

Gameplay purposes explain it. But yeah, it does stand as a difference.

If you're talking about the tiny patch of green near the top of ST's map between the snow and mountain areas

No I mean the numerous patches of trees you have to navigate through in order to get to the temple.

Also, on the rotated image of ST's map, the forest is more vertical than horizontal, whereas the AoL forest tucked into the mountains is more horizontal than vertical.

Gee, with that kind of expectations we could never have two games set in the same Hyrule because they would have to be 100% identical.

The Eastern Palace area also looks quite dry.

Yes, but not in all games.

There is a maze of caves that you have to navigate by entering one after the other. You don't enter once and find yourself right at your destination, you have to go underground several times.

I misunderstood what you meant. Even then, other games in the series have forced Link to go into caves several times to get where he needs to go.

Never in that same manner.

I've found the region now, and to be honest I really don't see any solid connection to the Eastern Palace area. Wouldn't the sand make it closer to a desert anyway?

Didn't you just say the "The Eastern Palace area also looks quite dry."

To be fair, OoT Link also had the three elemental arrows and ten ocarina songs as well. Either way, LoZ/AoL Hyrule seems to have magic to spare, whereas ST Hyrule doesn't.

The Light Arrows count in OoT but not in ST?

Old Hyrule appears to have been the only place connected to the Sacred Realm; when it was erased, so was any chance of the Sacred Realm being accessed. Since it's most likely that the Triforce returned to the Sacred Realm after Daphnes wished on it in TWW, it would forever be out of reach. However, the Triforce is clearly in Hyrule during LoZ and AoL.

We don't know what became of the Triforce after TWW, and as you said yourself: it appears to have been.

Sadly, and as much as I am loathe to admit so, I cannot destroy this comparison without also destroying other comparisons and arguments I have made (and still hold) between games.

Then you know perfectly well how I feel :(

However, I would like to emphasize 2 points of interest, and hope it gives you some semblance of comfort:

1) Even if this is correct, and ST shares geography with AoL (and by extention LoZ and the rest of the games set in Hyrule) That does not prove anything other than the fact that they share the same geographic location. For the people who put all the older games on the Child Timeline, this should be inconsequential.


I would place the emphasis on prove there. It doesn't prove it, no, but it could be seen as developer's intent to tell us that the NES games no longer belong in the CT.

2) As far as I know, Spirit Tracks does nothing to solve problems already present in having those games on the Adult Timeline (namely, the lack of the Triforce, Ganon, and the Master Sword) aside from (possibly) reviving Hyrule.

Yeah, I know... it's a mess :\

Aside: I am actually working on an article which details an odd thought which I have had, inspired by this thread, in which geography doesn't change all that drastically, but instead what is shown of 'Hyrule' changes. The games simply take place in different parts of the land.

So essentially you are subscribing to the Valiant comics maps? Or a variation thereof?
Either way, please do post a link to your article here when it done :)

#56 Average Gamer

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Posted 10 April 2010 - 09:11 PM

The similarity there is more remarkable than the difference.


As stated earlier, if both NES games depict the lake connecting to the ocean, then shouldn't that be considered an actual trait of said lake? ST's lake in question is inland, so there is a major difference between the two.

Gameplay purposes explain it.


No they don't. You might as well use that line of reasoning to claim that the Temple of Time was always surrounded by a large forest or that Kakariko was always in an arid region. Such a stance is essentially unsupported.

No I mean the numerous patches of trees you have to navigate through in order to get to the temple.


Many of those do not appear to be tucked into the mountains at all on the map, and numerous forests (ST) do not equal one forest (LoZ).

Gee, with that kind of expectations we could never have two games set in the same Hyrule because they would have to be 100% identical.


I only mentioned that because LoZ and AoL have so few details as is.

Yes, but not in all games.


Such as?

Never in that same manner.


But the idea of multiple mandatory caves existed regardless, and I recall needing the use of a cave to cross horizontal terrain and reach Ikana Castle in MM. Termina may be a different world, but the "horizontal distance" idea with caves has never been exclusive to AoL and ST.

Didn't you just say the "The Eastern Palace area also looks quite dry."


It was dry, but not a desert. The Eastern Palace area was dusty, not sandy.

The Light Arrows count in OoT but not in ST?


Now that I think about it, the Light Arrows don't count in either game. The Light Arrows came from the Goddesses and were exclusive to the chosen ones in OoT, and ST's Bow of Light came from the Spirits or Lokomo and was similarly exclusive.

We don't know what became of the Triforce after TWW, and as you said yourself: it appears to have been.


However, there is no other real candidate for the Triforce's location post-TWW. Additionally, leaving it in the new world would have been an unnecessary risk that would arguably contradict and ruin Daphnes' wish, as a vital part of the old world/past would still be around. Even worse, people could have begun fighting over it once more.

#57 Duke Serkol

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 06:29 PM

As stated earlier, if both NES games depict the lake connecting to the ocean, then shouldn't that be considered an actual trait of said lake? ST's lake in question is inland, so there is a major difference between the two.

Not, really no. Lake Hylia has hardly been consistent when it came to rivers coing into it (or even its own location on the map, for that matter).

Gameplay purposes explain it.

No they don't. You might as well use that line of reasoning to claim that the Temple of Time was always surrounded by a large forest or that Kakariko was always in an arid region. Such a stance is essentially unsupported.

On the contrary, I can use that line of reasoning to say that Kakariko suddenly being arid in TP does not compromise it being the same Kakariko seen in OoT since they changed it to spice things up.
Same thing may or may not apply to the Temple of Time, I dunno honestly.

No I mean the numerous patches of trees you have to navigate through in order to get to the temple.

Many of those do not appear to be tucked into the mountains at all on the map, and numerous forests (ST) do not equal one forest (LoZ).

The idea there is that you have to fill up the gaps. Then you get pretty much a square of tree tucked in a corner of the map (which, as tytpical, is surrounded by mountains or hills)

Yes, but not in all games.


Such as?

FSA. The Eastern Temple in that one was in the middle of a forest.

But the idea of multiple mandatory caves existed regardless, and I recall needing the use of a cave to cross horizontal terrain and reach Ikana Castle in MM. Termina may be a different world, but the "horizontal distance" idea with caves has never been exclusive to AoL and ST.

But it's not horizontal, you get sent in all directions. It's like traveling a spider's web while blindfolded.

It was dry, but not a desert. The Eastern Palace area was dusty, not sandy.

Dust, sand... I don't imagine that would make a difference in early 8 bits graphics.

However, there is no other real candidate for the Triforce's location post-TWW.

That doesn't mean we can just assume that it's returned there.

Additionally, leaving it in the new world would have been an unnecessary risk that would arguably contradict and ruin Daphnes' wish, as a vital part of the old world/past would still be around. Even worse, people could have begun fighting over it once more.

I agree, but ST in general seems to me a big middle finger towards Daphne's wish.
I mean, suppose that there were no references to TWW's plot, that it was always called just Hyrule (not New Hyrule) and that Malladus was called Ganon. The ONLY thing that would lead one to think that it's not the same Hyrule as in the past would be the trains.

...actually that leads me to a very interesting thought: no real reason is given as to why Malladus ends up looking like Ganon.
Perhaps it IS really the same thing with this New Hyrule resembling the old one. It does but not to establish a connection, simply because the authors of the game chose to make it as such "for the hell of it".
Either that or it's some kind of nomen omen thing (Malladus is the new Demon King so he ends up resembling the old one, this land is the new Hyrule so it somehow ends up resembling the old one).

Interesting...

#58 Average Gamer

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Posted 12 April 2010 - 10:51 PM

Not, really no. Lake Hylia has hardly been consistent when it came to rivers coing into it (or even its own location on the map, for that matter).


This isn't a mere river though; this is a clear connection to the great body of water that is the ocean, and as stated earlier, one could even argue that it's a bay, not a lake.

On the contrary, I can use that line of reasoning to say that Kakariko suddenly being arid in TP does not compromise it being the same Kakariko seen in OoT since they changed it to spice things up.


However, because nothing even hints toward the AoL and ST oceans being the same, that's nothing more than an excuse. Instead of handling the facts, you're creating a cop-out, just like how Lex claims that OoT is still the SW by relying on completely unsupported, convoluted theories.

The idea there is that you have to fill up the gaps. Then you get pretty much a square of tree tucked in a corner of the map (which, as tytpical, is surrounded by mountains or hills)


However, that essentially amounts to making stuff up instead of taking the maps for what they are, not to mention that the hypothetical forest would still be far above and away from the second one. Also, the small forests in ST are staggered in such a way that a square/rectangular forest wouldn't really work out.

FSA. The Eastern Temple in that one was in the middle of a forest.


Please post a link to it. The forest there might not be very thick at all, and the region was surrounded by a modest, ordinary group of trees in ALttP even then. At best the regular forest receded and some plants began to die; there really isn't a reason to believe that the area was once in the Lost Woods of OoT.

But it's not horizontal, you get sent in all directions. It's like traveling a spider's web while blindfolded.


Didn't you say that the layout was horizontal? Even if the caves are confusing to navigate, it looks like Link just crosses the area instead of climbing anything.

Dust, sand... I don't imagine that would make a difference in early 8 bits graphics.


The general brown areas on the LoZ map look like they could easily serve the purpose of being a dusty region. This supposed sandy ground seems to be deliberate.

That doesn't mean we can just assume that it's returned there.


Yet we completely lack any reason to believe otherwise, and leaving the Triforce within the world or otherwise making it accessible would threaten to ruin Daphnes' wish. It hasn't been set in stone, but it is certainly the most plausible option and has no real competition.

I agree, but ST in general seems to me a big middle finger towards Daphne's wish.


While naming the new land Hyrule was a dick move, Daphnes' wish is still being respected in the end. All knowledge of the old world is essentially dead and gone, and the Lokomo keep that information under wraps as well. Even with a new monarchy, the old culture is also vanquished, and the Triforce does not appear to be known to anyone. The associations of the old world are no longer present, and the Master Sword is hundreds of miles away at the bottom of the ocean, if it even survived Daphnes' wish (as he was not an evil person). Finally, ST's Hyrule centers around technology, as opposed to the Hyrule of LoZ and AoL.

...actually that leads me to a very interesting thought: no real reason is given as to why Malladus ends up looking like Ganon.


To be fair, the horns and red hair come from Cole, so those aren't necessarily actual traits of Malladus. At best, the visual similarity may have been to symbolize how Malladus is also an old figure who needs to be eliminated.

#59 Person

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 09:25 PM

Malladus's true form is a giant floating skull. The pig-like form he gives to Cole's body was probably a visual homage, much like Bellum and Oshus were to the Nightmare and the Wind Fish.

#60 Duke Serkol

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 06:23 PM

This isn't a mere river though; this is a clear connection to the great body of water that is the ocean, and as stated earlier, one could even argue that it's a bay, not a lake.

Because most rivers do not end up in the sea/ocean?

However, because nothing even hints toward the AoL and ST oceans being the same, that's nothing more than an excuse. Instead of handling the facts, you're creating a cop-out

Ok, I'm going to pretend you did not just say that...
I'll just answer your objection by saying this: the authors of the game have added stuff to the map since ALttP. Namely the marsh and desert that could not be seen in LoZ-AoL. If they didn't, the games would get stale soon enough.
This is why I focus primarily on similarities, and only in second order on differencies.

However, that essentially amounts to making stuff up instead of taking the maps for what they are

If you take the maps, any maps, at face value only, that will never get you anywhere. Connecting the dots is necessary.

Please post a link to it. The forest there might not be very thick at all, and the region was surrounded by a modest, ordinary group of trees in ALttP even then. At best the regular forest receded and some plants began to die; there really isn't a reason to believe that the area was once in the Lost Woods of OoT.

Just Google Zelda FSA map. The temple is right there in the woods.
And how is it that it's okay for you to speculate the death and growth of forests but when I do it you tell me I'm ignoring the maps?

Didn't you say that the layout was horizontal? Even if the caves are confusing to navigate, it looks like Link just crosses the area instead of climbing anything.

It is also horizontal. That's the unusual quality. Most Zelda games have us climb up one face of a mountain by entering and leaving caves. Far more unusual it is to go through the cave to the other side.

The general brown areas on the LoZ map look like they could easily serve the purpose of being a dusty region.

Most of that is Death Mountain.


That doesn't mean we can just assume that it's returned there.

Yet we completely lack any reason to believe otherwise

No, we completely lack any reason to believe the Triforce to be anywhere specific.

While naming the new land Hyrule was a dick move

Glad we agree to that much at least ;)

To be fair, the horns and red hair come from Cole,

A blue beast with hooves is a blue beast with hooves. Ganon did not even have horns until OoT.

At best, the visual similarity may have been to symbolize how Malladus is also an old figure who needs to be eliminated.

Seems plausible yes. I'd say either that or it is something that comes with being Great Demon King.

Malladus's true form is a giant floating skull.

No, that is Malladus' bodiless spirit.

The pig-like form he gives to Cole's body was probably a visual homage, much like Bellum and Oshus were to the Nightmare and the Wind Fish.

Yes but what I've been thinking is whther the resemblances of this new Hyrule and the old one couldn't be a visual homage as well.
Honestly, I've grown so accustomed to thinking this that I no longer have much interest in killing this comparison or even just debating it. I can leave it be, so long as I do not necessarily see developer intent connecting the game to LoZ-AoL behind it.

Thank you everyone who took part in the debate it has served to give me a measure of mental peace when it comes to this issue :D

Edited by Duke Serkol, 17 April 2010 - 06:37 PM.





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