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ST Hyrule - A challenge


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#1 Duke Serkol

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 04:45 PM

So guys... I've been gone for a while, but it appears to me that the general consensus in these parts is for ST to not be followed by any games previously released, right?

That is what I desperately want to believe as well. I mean, it's set in a Hyrule that because of the background story shouldn't possibly be the one seen in OoT (which, I assume, pretty much everyone here believes to be the same as all other games except ST, as I would like to) and it has more advanced technology than any other game set in Hyrule we've seen so far (except for the Oocca in TP, but they don't count).

That about sums it up, doesn't it?

Then please, do your best to utterly destroy this abominable comparison that I couldn't stop myself from creating, as it is tormenting me!
Attached File  AoLtoST.PNG   169.84K   91 downloads

Tell me how this can not possibly imply any developer intent to suggest that the new Hyrule of ST is the same as the one we saw in the NES games.
Because I can't shake the feeling that this is the only conclusion this comparison allows me to draw, and I loathe it with my entire being.
I've created countless comparisons between the maps of LoZ-AoL and those of the other games (ALttP especially) and I would hate for ST Hyrule to retcon the NES Hyrule as a different Hyrule than those of the other games. But that just seems to be what it's been made to do :(

...oh and I realize a lot of people will write it off as "lolgeography". I'm asking those that do concern themselves (even if marginally) with geography to try and destroy this monstrosity.

Edited by Duke Serkol, 03 April 2010 - 05:21 PM.


#2 Person

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 06:09 PM

I think the fact that the map is flipped to one side would mean you're reading way too much into it. It only looks the same if you squint even then.

#3 Duke Serkol

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 06:25 PM

Didn't just about everyone and their dog rotate OoT's map when comparing it to ALttP?

Honestly, I wish I could say the same about having to squint. I feel like developer's intent is staring right back at me, no matter how many times I blink.

Try comparing the coastlines, take note of the twin lake (the one with level 1 and 4 in LoZ), Spectacle Rock (the two large boulders near where the Goron Village is in ST) as well as the third rock that in LoZ was one screen above level 2.
Consider also that the graveyard in LoZ used a snow-white palette (both for rocky walls and trees, a hardware limit to be sure but it could be being referenced), and that the snowy area in ST has enough tree to make a forest if they only grow a little thicker.

#4 Impossible

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 07:43 PM

Didn't just about everyone and their dog rotate OoT's map when comparing it to ALttP?


That's a slight rotation, in order to match up all the exact same locations, most of which have the same names. This is a stretch, and honestly, I don't see a strong similarity.

#5 Duke Serkol

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 07:54 PM

Well, if you guys can't see the maps as matching, I guess you can't really help me debunk this and get it out of my head (alas I do see similarities and it's going to take more for me than "rotating it too much is a stretch" to make the horror go away :\)

But at least it's good to see that my personal nightmare here isn't going to become everyone's. That, in and of itself, does help.

#6 Average Gamer

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 08:42 PM

Then please, do your best to utterly destroy this abominable comparison that I couldn't stop myself from creating, as it is tormenting me!
Attached File  AoLtoST.PNG   169.84K   91 downloads


The AoL map completely lacks a snowy region and ST's grassy area takes up a good amount of space, whereas the corresponding spot on the AoL map largely features barren land. Additionally, ST has an actual mountain, whereas the AoL region pointed out in the picture is just a rocky place with, if anything, numerous canyons.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, ST clearly says that the wintry and mountainous regions are to the north. Seeing as how AoL's northern Hyrule is north of the area where LoZ took place, the map rotation already kills this theory.

Edited by Average Gamer, 03 April 2010 - 08:45 PM.


#7 Duke Serkol

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 09:12 PM

Yes! Much better :D

The AoL map completely lacks a snowy region

Snowy regions have always been problematic (you know, Talus Cave, Snowpeak), but as I mentioned before, the graveyard in LoZ used a snow-white palette (both for rocky walls and trees, clearly a hardware limit but it could be being referenced), and the the snowy area in ST has enough tree to become the forest of the AoL map if they only "unfreeze" and grow a little thicker.

and ST's grassy area takes up a good amount of space, whereas the corresponding spot on the AoL map largely features barren land.

Well a similar objection could be brought up when comparing the AoL and LoZ map with any other maps. Hyrule got a lot greenier in later games.
Rather it could be pointed out that there seems to be a lot more open space between the lakes and the mountains (but the same could be said when comparing the AoL and LoZ map in which the lakes are immediately below the mountains) or that there is an extra lake which never appeared before. Those are definitely points that detract from this comparison.

Additionally, ST has an actual mountain, whereas the AoL region pointed out in the picture is just a rocky place with, if anything, numerous canyons.

Not really. It's called the Death Mountain area, so it's a mountain range.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, ST clearly says that the wintry and mountainous regions are to the north. Seeing as how AoL's northern Hyrule is north of the area where LoZ took place, the map rotation already kills this theory.

We can't really expect for the programmers to show us a map and then have characters tell us to go north when on the map that direction is east, can we?
Again, it's not like people didn't rotate OoT's map 45 despite said map happening to have a compass in the corner that never stopped anybody.
This just goes as far as 90...

Thanks for the post, it may not have made me stop seeing developer intent in this comparison but it certainly started undermining it :)

#8 Jarsh

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 10:40 PM

Didn't just about everyone and their dog rotate OoT's map when comparing it to ALttP?

Well, yeah, but I assumed that was because there was a second north arrow on the map; in which if you tilt the ALttP Hyrule in the direction of the otherwise purpose-less arrow almost everything matches up with OoT's Hyrule. Personally, I don't really see anything to indicate a flipping of any other map unless there is some sort of hint such as what's in OoT's map.

Edited by Jarsh, 03 April 2010 - 10:41 PM.


#9 Person

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 12:14 AM

The rotation of the ALttP map also never solved the "Why are the Lost Woods and Kakariko Village in the wrong spots" problem and required a lot more wild mass guessing to make work. OoT and ALttP Hyrules were also supposed to be the same country, not a different one like is explicitly stated in ST. The OoT map also had a different orientation (diamond as opposed to square) so the 45-degree rotation was just to compensate for that. Nothing as drastic as flipping the map 90 degrees.

Also, lolgeography. :P

#10 Average Gamer

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 01:02 AM

Sorry for the delay.

Snowy regions have always been problematic (you know, Talus Cave, Snowpeak), but as I mentioned before, the graveyard in LoZ used a snow-white palette (both for rocky walls and trees, clearly a hardware limit but it could be being referenced),


That was probably just supposed to make the region feel desolate and dead, and may also have been an attempt to portray marble. The surrounding area wasn't wintry in the slightest either.

and the the snowy area in ST has enough tree to become the forest of the AoL map if they only "unfreeze" and grow a little thicker.


If I'm not mistaken, the snow and ice in ST is year-round. It'd take a random climate shift for all of the snow to permanently vanish, and such a thing occurring is doubtful.

Well a similar objection could be brought up when comparing the AoL and LoZ map with any other maps. Hyrule got a lot greenier in later games.


However, LoZ and AoL Hyrule had incredibly basic, undetailed maps. Without the forests, lakes, etc., we honestly have nothing to go off of for comparison, as the maps lack any other features. To remove a forest or river is to essentially remove an actual part of LoZ/AoL Hyrule, thus undermining whatever comparison you'd want to make.

Not really. It's called the Death Mountain area, so it's a mountain range.


I don't see Spectacle Rock anywhere in that image, but even so, ST's mountain was not named Death Mountain, and I don't recall it having a spectacle rock of its own.

We can't really expect for the programmers to show us a map and then have characters tell us to go north when on the map that direction is east, can we?


However, AoL and ST's lands have canonical alignments; you can't rotate either map for a comparison between the two, as such a thing directly contradicts the games. That'd essentially be ignoring the compass.

Again, it's not like people didn't rotate OoT's map 45° despite said map happening to have a compass in the corner that never stopped anybody.


However, OoT's map had a second north labeled on the compass, ALttP's map (if I'm not mistaken) lacked a compass/confirmed alignment, and theorists merely overlapped key locations that were confirmed to be the same.

This just goes as far as 90°...


90 degrees completely changes the entire alignment, which I consider going too far. Even 45 degrees is pretty bad, but at least that was partially justified.

Another thing I want to mention is that ST's Hyrule was covered in Spirit Tracks. Not a single train or train track is seen in LoZ or AoL, and seeing as how the Spirit Tracks went almost everywhere in ST, it'd be ridiculously improbable for Link to have missed all of the tracks in his two journeys across Hyrule.

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, LoZ's manual more or less states that the entire world is in a dark age even before Ganon's invasion, whereas the people in ST are relatively advanced.

Edited by Average Gamer, 04 April 2010 - 01:07 AM.


#11 Smertios

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 09:36 AM

I hate myself for doing this because I simply hate this theory, but, anyway, let's go...

If I'm not mistaken, the snow and ice in ST is year-round. It'd take a random climate shift for all of the snow to permanently vanish, and such a thing occurring is doubtful.


I definitely don't remember that. Wasn't the ice created by Malladus/Cole evil magic??

However, LoZ and AoL Hyrule had incredibly basic, undetailed maps. Without the forests, lakes, etc., we honestly have nothing to go off of for comparison, as the maps lack any other features. To remove a forest or river is to essentially remove an actual part of LoZ/AoL Hyrule, thus undermining whatever comparison you'd want to make.


I have to disagree. The LoZ map is pretty detailed...

I don't see Spectacle Rock anywhere in that image, but even so, ST's mountain was not named Death Mountain, and I don't recall it having a spectacle rock of its own.


Well, there is a set of two stones in the mountain. It is not called spectacle rock, but we did see spectacle rock in TP and it was never referred to as such....

However, AoL and ST's lands have canonical alignments; you can't rotate either map for a comparison between the two, as such a thing directly contradicts the games. That'd essentially be ignoring the compass.


This is the main reason why I think that's just a coincidence...

However, OoT's map had a second north labeled on the compass,


No it didn't. The additional arrow has absolutely no label. If it is to guess anything, it is that is marking the Northeast...

ALttP's map (if I'm not mistaken) lacked a compass/confirmed alignment,


You are mistaken, there is a compass rose in the middle of Kakariko...

and theorists merely overlapped key locations that were confirmed to be the same.


Well, although I do believe they were meant to be the same places, I have to say that they were never confirmed to be...

Another thing I want to mention is that ST's Hyrule was covered in Spirit Tracks. Not a single train or train track is seen in LoZ or AoL, and seeing as how the Spirit Tracks went almost everywhere in ST, it'd be ridiculously improbable for Link to have missed all of the tracks in his two journeys across Hyrule.


Technology is never a good argument in theorizing. The developers have stated that they do not think of technological advancement when making the games already...

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, LoZ's manual more or less states that the entire world is in a dark age even before Ganon's invasion, whereas the people in ST are relatively advanced.


Dark ages come only after ages of brightness though...

#12 Duke Serkol

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 10:07 AM

I don't really see anything to indicate a flipping of any other map unless there is some sort of hint such as what's in OoT's map.

I see the tilted twin lake and coast (that once rotated both match up with their counterparts in AoL) as a hint.

The rotation of the ALttP map also never solved the "Why are the Lost Woods and Kakariko Village in the wrong spots" problem

A village can be moved, and LoZ had woods in both of the places where ALttP and OoT placed theirs. Then with FSA we were told that any forest can be made into Lost Woods.

OoT and ALttP Hyrules were also supposed to be the same country, not a different one like is explicitly stated in ST.

I know, and that's one of the main reasons I want you guys to trash this comparison into the ground. I'm playing devil's advocat to help you make a thorough job.

Sorry for the delay.

No problem.

the graveyard in LoZ used a snow-white palette (both for rocky walls and trees, clearly a hardware limit but it could be being referenced),

That was probably just supposed to make the region feel desolate and dead, and may also have been an attempt to portray marble. The surrounding area wasn't wintry in the slightest either.

I can only repeat that while that was definitely due to hardware limitations, this could still be meant as a reference to it.
But I have to say, I like this mental image of the graveyard having white marble walls... we need moar of that in Zelda.


If I'm not mistaken, the snow and ice in ST is year-round. It'd take a random climate shift for all of the snow to permanently vanish, and such a thing occurring is doubtful.

Yes it does seem to be that way (what with the Aonuki having settled there...) but I suppose it might be more intense in some seasons. Or maybe the area is like that because of the temple.
A sound objection though, I likes :)

LoZ and AoL Hyrule had incredibly basic, undetailed maps. Without the forests, lakes, etc.,

Wait what? They are all there. Two forests, two lakes, a river... the only thing missing is the desert (and the swamp, I suppose).

To remove a forest or river is to essentially remove an actual part of LoZ/AoL Hyrule, thus undermining whatever comparison you'd want to make.

I agree about the forest, but the course of rivers has been altered several times in the past.

I don't see Spectacle Rock anywhere in that image, but even so, ST's mountain was not named Death Mountain, and I don't recall it having a spectacle rock of its own.

But it isn't given a different name either is it? We're just told that its corner of the map is Fire Land.
Which map can you not see Spectacle Rock on? AoL or ST? (Or both?)
Anyway, here's a crop:
Attached File  SRR.PNG   40.57K   22 downloads

However, AoL and ST's lands have canonical alignments; you can't rotate either map for a comparison between the two, as such a thing directly contradicts the games. That'd essentially be ignoring the compass.

Which is what was done with OoT.
I understand why people would object to that though. Let's consider this objection noted and focus on the rest.

However, OoT's map had a second north labeled on the compass, ALttP's map (if I'm not mistaken) lacked a compass/confirmed alignment

There was an arrow, but it wsn't labeled (unlike the other four directions). If we went by that compass, AoL's North Castle would really be North East Castle.

Another thing I want to mention is that ST's Hyrule was covered in Spirit Tracks. Not a single train or train track is seen in LoZ or AoL, and seeing as how the Spirit Tracks went almost everywhere in ST, it'd be ridiculously improbable for Link to have missed all of the tracks in his two journeys across Hyrule.

The tracks could be gone with Malladus out of the picture, but...

Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, LoZ's manual more or less states that the entire world is in a dark age even before Ganon's invasion, whereas the people in ST are relatively advanced.

ST does in fact have a far more technologically advanced society than any we've previously seen in Hyrule, which is another reason I want to see this comparison grinded into dust.


I got Ninja'ed by Smertios... good call on the Kakariko compass rose!
Guess we are both playing devil's advocat for a comparison we dislike uh?

Edited by Duke Serkol, 04 April 2010 - 10:10 AM.


#13 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 10:12 AM

They look nothing alike.

#14 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 11:36 AM

Yeah, they really don't look alike. There are a few similarities, but I doubt they're anything significant and are probably just coincidences.

#15 Smertios

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 01:50 PM

I don't like this theory simply because I don't like the idea of rotating maps much. I can easily see LoZ/AoL coming after ST. Not directly though, which would ruin that comparison already...

The only problem there is that too many things there seem to match to be purely coincidental. Still, I'm having a hard time believing that the developers would ever leave a geography reference hidden through rotation like that.

I wouldn't be so worried about the Ice Realm thing though. As I said, the ice there was created through evil magic, and the blizzard stopped after you retrieved the Force Gem from the Ice Temple. And remember that the Ice Realm itself is just a bunch of woods that have you get lost if you don't follow the correct path, pretty much like the Lost Woods in LoZ. In fact, I think it reminds me of the LoZ Lost Woods more than the ST Lost Woods do...

Ahh, why does this look so intentional??

#16 Duke Serkol

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:11 PM

I don't like this theory simply because I don't like the idea of rotating maps much. I can easily see LoZ/AoL coming after ST. Not directly though, which would ruin that comparison already...

Looks like we have different reasons to dislike it then.

I wouldn't be so worried about the Ice Realm thing though. As I said, the ice there was created through evil magic, and the blizzard stopped after you retrieved the Force Gem from the Ice Temple.

Retrieved? Don't you mean re-energized?
...and wouldn't that mean Link subtly screwed the Aonuki over? Better them than all the land ruled by Malladus I guess *lol*

The only problem there is that too many things there seem to match to be purely coincidental.

the Ice Realm itself is just a bunch of woods that have you get lost if you don't follow the correct path, pretty much like the Lost Woods in LoZ. In fact, I think it reminds me of the LoZ Lost Woods more than the ST Lost Woods do...

Ahh, why does this look so intentional??

Exactly why it keeps bothering me >_<

#17 Pinecove

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:14 PM

I don't like this theory simply because I don't like the idea of rotating maps much. I can easily see LoZ/AoL coming after ST. Not directly though, which would ruin that comparison already...


You're forgetting my rule for geography: Shared locations between games =/= direct continuity.

#18 Smertios

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:24 PM


I wouldn't be so worried about the Ice Realm thing though. As I said, the ice there was created through evil magic, and the blizzard stopped after you retrieved the Force Gem from the Ice Temple.

Retrieved? Don't you mean re-energized?


Re-energized? Well, works too...

...and wouldn't that mean Link subtly screwed the Aonuki over? Better them than all the land ruled by Malladus I guess *lol*


LOL, probably. But seriously, I don't see why else the land would be covered in ice there...

I don't like this theory simply because I don't like the idea of rotating maps much. I can easily see LoZ/AoL coming after ST. Not directly though, which would ruin that comparison already...


You're forgetting my rule for geography: Shared locations between games =/= direct continuity.


I agree with that. The only problem is: it is not the fact that both games share locations with the same name, it's the fact that the maps are so similar, when rotated...

#19 Pinecove

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:28 PM

When comparing maps, CONTENT not location should be lined up.

#20 Duke Serkol

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 02:53 PM

Why not both?

#21 Pinecove

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 03:14 PM

Because there are some cases when two things we know are the same aren't in the same place.

If you can get both contant and location to line up, then good for you, but otherwise, location doesn't serve a purpose.

#22 Duke Serkol

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 03:22 PM

Maybe I'm not properly understanding this, but how would have a matching location without something to match in the first place? (Location without content, as you put it)

#23 Smertios

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 03:25 PM

Because there are some cases when two things we know are the same aren't in the same place.

If you can get both contant and location to line up, then good for you, but otherwise, location doesn't serve a purpose.


IMO there are three things one should consider when analyzing geography: relative location, purpose and name.

For example, analyzing Death Mountain in OoT and LttP. First we look at the name. They match. Now we look at the relative position. DM is in Hyrule in OoT, but in the SR in LttP, therefore they are not the same place. Now the LW mountain in LttP (Mountain of Hera) is in the same relative position as DM in OoT and shares the same function, therefore it is probably the same place.

The thing with ST is: the position matches, the names don't. Now we look at purpose, and it matches too (mountains are mountains, lakes are lakes etc). What should we make of that??

#24 Pinecove

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 03:38 PM

Duke: Maybe I'm not properly understanding this, but how would have a matching location without something to match in the first place? (Location without content, as you put it). If you're comparing the FSA and ALttP maps, one has a lake, the other has a piece of land that a river bends around. Some people would argue those are the same.

Smertios: Names re-emerge. If any games besides ST come on the AT then the name "Death mountain" could re-emerge simply because of the skulls on the mountain.

Edited by Destiny, 04 April 2010 - 03:39 PM.


#25 Average Gamer

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:00 PM

I definitely don't remember that. Wasn't the ice created by Malladus/Cole evil magic??


Not to my knowledge. The Anouki living there also seems to suggest that it's always cold.

I have to disagree. The LoZ map is pretty detailed...


How so? It was created with incredibly simplistic, 8-bit graphics. Without the forests, rivers, etc. it'd essentially just be a big, featureless square.

Well, there is a set of two stones in the mountain. It is not called spectacle rock, but we did see spectacle rock in TP and it was never referred to as such....


Could you please provide pictures of the pairs of stones in ST and TP? Depending on their sizes and how they're aligned, it might not be intentional.

No it didn't. The additional arrow has absolutely no label. If it is to guess anything, it is that is marking the Northeast...


Alright. Even then, ALttP's Dark World featured the sun seemingly rising at the top of the map, which I've seen one or two fans use to argue that an OoT alignment would be better. However, considering the labeled weathervane in Karkariko, that's probably just a screw up.

Well, although I do believe they were meant to be the same places, I have to say that they were never confirmed to be...


Seeing as how the locations mostly bear the exact same names, come incredibly close to matching ALttP's map shape, and there was only one Hyrule at the time, it's likely that OoT and ALttP Hyrule were meant to be the same. TWW and ST also stress the annihilation of the old world and creating something new, so makes it even less likely that OoT and ALttP featured different Hyrules.

Technology is never a good argument in theorizing. The developers have stated that they do not think of technological advancement when making the games already...


However, the Spirit Tracks aren't mere dungeon items like, say, the Hookshot. The Spirit Tracks were critical, vital elements to the plot of ST, and the new world even utilized them to maintain their society. Additionally, the tracks did in fact cover most of the land, so missing them while traveling would almost have to be intentional.

Dark ages come only after ages of brightness though...


Yet we have no reason to believe that something catastrophic would happen to ruin the advanced state of New Hyrule, let alone the entire world. Also, to my knowledge, ST's world is lacking in magic (outside of the Lokomo anyway), whereas there were numerous spells and such in LoZ and AoL.

I can only repeat that while that was definitely due to hardware limitations, this could still be meant as a reference to it.


However, because there was not even the slightest sign of snow or ice anywhere outside of the graveyard, it's unlikely that Nintendo would try to portray it as a wintry region. If the white colors were exclusive to an area generally associated with marble and death, it was likely that Nintendo was going for the marble and death angle.

Yes it does seem to be that way (what with the Aonuki having settled there...) but I suppose it might be more intense in some seasons.


But LoZ and AoL don't have a shortage of snow; they have a complete absence of it.

Wait what? They are all there. Two forests, two lakes, a river... the only thing missing is the desert (and the swamp, I suppose).


But they may very well be unrelated forests, rivers, etc. Because LoZ's map is so lacking, altering the flows of the rivers, extent of the forests, etc. essentially alters the entire map instead of making a minor adjustment.

I agree about the forest, but the course of rivers has been altered several times in the past.


Yet, as stated above, they may easily be completely unrelated rivers. Also, the AoL and ST maps feature inland bodies of water that make no sense when the maps are compared.

But it isn't given a different name either is it? We're just told that its corner of the map is Fire Land.


I recall it being called Goron Mountain or something. Either way, it is not named Death Mountain.

Which map can you not see Spectacle Rock on? AoL or ST? (Or both?)


I didn't see Spectacle Rock on either map, but I was referring to the AoL one. It appears that one of the rocks has been replaced by a hole there, possibly to represent how Link placed a bomb near one of the stones to reach Ganon's lair in LoZ.

The tracks could be gone with Malladus out of the picture, but...


However, the Spirit Tracks remained after Malladus was defeated, even being used by Link in the Engineer ending. Also, the people of New Hyrule utilized the tracks to carry passengers and supplies, so they were truly important to the land.

Names re-emerge. If any games besides ST come on the AT then the name "Death mountain" could re-emerge simply because of the skulls on the mountain.


Or they could very well name it Skull Mountain. Names don't necessarily reemerge.

Edited by Average Gamer, 04 April 2010 - 04:26 PM.


#26 ganonlord6000

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 04:01 PM

There is no way ST Hyrule could be LOZ's Hyrule. ST hyrule is way to advanced, for one(probably because Ganon is dead). And for map comparisons, only similar locations with the same name can be compared. For example, FSA Hyrule can be compared to ALTTP Hyrule easily because it's the SAME MAP. OOT and ALTTP have the same locations. TP shows how OOT's map becomes ALTTP's map. Other maps like TMC's map can be prepared to FSA's map because it occurs a long time before it. LOZ's map is ALTTP's map.

Here is one problem with comparing ST's map to other maps: the spirit tower. Something like that can't disappear easily. That tower wasn't in LOZ or AOL. And ST Hyrule seems to have nothing to do with the triforce or Ganon, so there is no connection. Not even an implied one.



#27 Duke Serkol

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 05:10 PM

I have to disagree. The LoZ map is pretty detailed...

How so? It was created with incredibly simplistic, 8-bit graphics. Without the forests, rivers, etc. it'd essentially just be a big, featureless square.

Dude, the LoZ map has a mountain, two/three lakes, a river, two forests, a coastline and a graveyard. It's -anything- but a featurless square...

Alright. Even then, ALttP's Dark World featured the sun seemingly rising at the top of the map, which I've seen one or two fans use to argue that an OoT alignment would be better. However, considering the labeled weathervane in Karkariko, that's probably just a screw up.

I hadn't noticed that about the sun in ALttP, interesting!

However, because there was not even the slightest sign of snow or ice anywhere outside of the graveyard, it's unlikely that Nintendo would try to portray it as a wintry region. If the white colors were exclusive to an area generally associated with marble and death, it was likely that Nintendo was going for the marble and death angle.

LoZ and AoL don't have a shortage of snow; they have a complete absence of it.

The trees were white. Really I'm not saying the area was intended to be covered in snow back then just that the snow region may be meant as a reference to something the hardware forced them into.

the AoL and ST maps feature inland bodies of water that make no sense when the maps are compared.

Yeah, LoZ's Lake Hylia is not there and there's another lake in ST that never appeared in any other map.
However FSA labeled as Lake Hylia a filled up crater next to Death Mountain, so...

I recall it being called Goron Mountain or something.

Mh, you may be right about that...

I didn't see Spectacle Rock on either map, but I was referring to the AoL one. It appears that one of the rocks has been replaced by a hole there, possibly to represent how Link placed a bomb near one of the stones to reach Ganon's lair in LoZ.

Yep. Caves in AoL occupied one full square, so the only other way to show that the right rock was open would have been to make them huge (literally six times as big)

However, the Spirit Tracks remained after Malladus was defeated, even being used by Link in the Engineer ending. Also, the people of New Hyrule utilized the tracks to carry passengers and supplies, so they were truly important to the land.

Yeah, that's unarguably true... and one of the reasons I want this comparison/theory to be debunked.

There is no way ST Hyrule could be LOZ's Hyrule. ST hyrule is way to advanced, for one(probably because Ganon is dead). And for map comparisons, only similar locations with the same name can be compared. For example, FSA Hyrule can be compared to ALTTP Hyrule easily because it's the SAME MAP. OOT and ALTTP have the same locations. TP shows how OOT's map becomes ALTTP's map. Other maps like TMC's map can be prepared to FSA's map because it occurs a long time before it. LOZ's map is ALTTP's map.

And THIS is the other main reason why I want you guys to kill it.

Here is one problem with comparing ST's map to other maps: the spirit tower. Something like that can't disappear easily.

Uh... yes it can. It just needs to be torn down. Besides you said yourself that ALttP=LoZ and ALttP had a castle which was not seen in LoZ (among other things including a tower, that of Hera on the mountain).
Heck even -during- ST that tower comes very close to being sent flying off...

Edited by Duke Serkol, 04 April 2010 - 05:11 PM.


#28 Smertios

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 05:32 PM

However FSA labeled as Lake Hylia a filled up crater next to Death Mountain, so...


Not really. The lake labeled Lake Hylia in FSA is the lake at the bottom of the waterfall. Not the water in the crater. If you want to compare it to OoT, for example, we could say that the crater acts like Zora's Fountain...

#29 Average Gamer

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:16 PM

Dude, the LoZ map has a mountain, two/three lakes, a river, two forests, a coastline and a graveyard. It's -anything- but a featurless square...


I wasn't talking about the locations like the graveyard or the coastline. What I meant was that the land between LoZ's few key locations lacked detail. Speaking of detail, the mountains are only represented by generic rocky areas that don't indicate height or slope at all, the forests are bundles of green, etc. It's not like in OoT where we could tell that Lon Lon Ranch was on a hill or that the Gerudo Valley was particularly arid.

The trees were white.


I recall dead trees being white in some shows, and I once heard that the Japanese believed that white was the color of death (hopefully someone can confirm or deny this). The graveyard doesn't appear to be in a cold region.

Really I'm not saying the area was intended to be covered in snow back then just that the snow region may be meant as a reference to something the hardware forced them into.


I doubt that they'd cover a fourth of ST's map in snow and ice based off of one location from LoZ.

However FSA labeled as Lake Hylia a filled up crater next to Death Mountain, so...


See Smertios' comment.

Uh... yes it can.


I wasn't actually the person you're replying to; Ganonlord6000 mentioned the Spirit Tower. Regardless, we have no reason to believe that it was destroyed by a natural disaster, and we see no sign of it in LoZ or AoL. Even if Ganon destroyed it in his LoZ invasion, there should have at least been some sort of effort to reconstruct such a vital building going on in AoL, which occurred six years after LoZ.

Edited by Average Gamer, 04 April 2010 - 06:20 PM.


#30 Jarsh

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 06:32 PM

For example, analyzing Death Mountain in OoT and LttP. First we look at the name. They match.


Although I agree with what you're saying, isn't it called 'Mt. Hebra' in the Light World of ALttP? I'm pretty sure it's only called Death Mountain in the Dark World. But I'm just splitting hairs, here.




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