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#31 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 03:41 PM

There is no way in hell Zelda is at all related to Wicca. The original four or five games WERE Christian-biased as a lot of fantasy tends to be, but it has become greatly effected by Shinto spirituality since then.

#32 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 05:00 PM

I haven't seen any real connections to Wicca either. I do know that the first 3 games had Christian references (I don't remember if LA or OoT did). The original version of OoT had a few Islamic references. Shinto is pretty obvious as well. You should explain how the Zelda series is connected to Wicca.

One question, to anyone who is willing to answer, who is P*****? I've seen him/her/it referenced to on several occasions, but I haven't been here long enough to know who he/she/it is. Just curious.

Edited by Arturo, 19 April 2009 - 05:22 AM.
Don't pronounce the forbidden word!


#33 Anuril

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:43 PM

I'm not saying Zelda is more like Wicca, I'm saying it's like a Pagan/Christian mix. :angry:
One Christian thing i've noticed about OoT is the Architecture of the Church outside of the Temple of time.

One thing I'd really love is for Pagans(of all kinds) and Christians(Catholic too) to do is celebrate holidays together, and hold hands while church bells are ringing and people are singing in harmony.

I respect all religions as long as they are tolerant of other religions besides their own.

#34 Anuril

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 07:46 PM

Anyway the Pagan references in Zelda: The Zelda Oracles in the Oracle Series, Faeries throughout Hyrule, the use of Magic, the fact that there are 3 goddesses, not one god. So basically, Zelda is a perfect mix of Paganism and Christianity.

#35 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 18 April 2009 - 08:56 PM

You do realize that your references go beyond just Paganism. Many ancient Greek stories feature oracles, Fairies are mythical creatures that are in many different types of Lore & fairy tales, magic is a whole subject within itself, and Paganism is not the only polytheistic religion. So I still don't see how the Zelda series is a combination of Paganism & Christianity.

And Anuril, if I come off as offensive, I do apologize, as it is not my intention.

#36 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:08 AM

Shinto has faeries, goddesses and multiple divinities, magic, and so forth. Your point is really weak and flimsy, Anuril.

Sir Turtlelot, P***** was...well...let's just say he tried to argue that...no, um...

I don't want to say the thing about the Kokiri.

Edited by Arturo, 19 April 2009 - 05:21 AM.
Seriously, I must put an automatic censor for that word XD


#37 Fin

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:13 AM

Saying it's something you don't want to say about the Kokiri leads me to assume the worst. >_<

Ew.

#38 Average Gamer

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:31 AM

From what I can remember of his antics on ZU, P***** (Tuf Pic on ZU) thought that Link was half-Kokiri and that Link and Zelda were related "in some realities".

Of course, he might have mentioned other things on LA that I am not aware of.

Edited by Arturo, 19 April 2009 - 05:23 AM.
Yay for censorship ^^


#39 Selena

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 01:34 AM

*happybounce*

HE SAID THAT A KOKIRI BOY SCREWED LINK'S MOM. :D

#40 Average Gamer

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 02:54 AM

*happybounce*

HE SAID THAT A KOKIRI BOY SCREWED LINK'S MOM. :D


He also said that the Great Deku Tree screwed Link's mom and the Deku Sprout lied to Link.

#41 Fin

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 03:06 AM

Just like Evil Dead!

#42 Arturo

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 05:24 AM

Don't pronounce his name, he might come back! :ph34r:

#43 Sir Turtlelot

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 11:36 AM

*happybounce*

HE SAID THAT A KOKIRI BOY SCREWED LINK'S MOM. :D


He also said that the Great Deku Tree screwed Link's mom and the Deku Sprout lied to Link.


I see... well, thanks for the fill-in, it was... interesting, to say the least.

#44 Showsni

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 03:27 PM

Just do a member search for picman, then a search to find all his posts.

#45 Duke Serkol

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 04:15 PM

Arturo, do you realize the Forbidden Name, appears in every single post by MPS?
And as for him coming back... what if he already has? *dun dun dun!*

*Warning, some may find the following image offensive*
http://i29.photobuck...y13232132-1.jpg

#46 SOAP

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 07:32 PM

You do realize that your references go beyond just Paganism. Many ancient Greek stories feature oracles, Fairies are mythical creatures that are in many different types of Lore & fairy tales, magic is a whole subject within itself, and Paganism is not the only polytheistic religion. So I still don't see how the Zelda series is a combination of Paganism & Christianity.

And Anuril, if I come off as offensive, I do apologize, as it is not my intention.


I thought paganism was an umbrella term for all polytheistic faiths? Wicca falls under that same category but it's a bit vague whether it's polytheistic or monotheistic. The worship a being called The God but it's actually a combination of The Horned God and the Goddess which represent the Sun/Knowledge and the Moon/Wisdom(female intuition) respectively. I have lots of Wiccan friends. Christianity has three gods or one depending on who you talk to. I personally don't see anything specifically Christian in the Zelda games. It's made by Japanese producers and Christianity in Japan is like Buddhism is to us in the Western World, a weird foreign religion that rebellious teenagers are drawn to just to spite their conservative parents.

Zelda seems more of Shinto folklore reimagined with elements of western mythology (Greek and possibly German). The three Goddesses I think are more related to the Hindu trinity, the Norse Norne Trinity, or the Greek Hecate Trinity. Since they deal heavily with fate I would say they're the closest to being like the Nornes. The Christianity is more vague in some attempt to try to distance itself from pagan trinities.

Edited by SOAP, 19 April 2009 - 07:33 PM.


#47 avroillusion

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 08:17 PM

...In the opening post, those are not symbols, but themes. Important themes in the Zelda franchise, but not symbols. <_<

A symbol is a thing that represents something else by association or resemblance. For example: the crying eye of the Sheikah, the phoenix of hyrule, the triforce insignia, the designs on OOT's medallions, the signs of Din, Naryu and Farore as seen in the Oracles series and the Wind Waker's pearls. People and things can also be considered as symbols, but I can't think of any right now...except for maybe Ganondorf from the Wind Waker and how he came to examplify old values, stagnation and the glory of old Hyrule. Majora may be another one, symbolizing chaos and selfish desire. The Master Sword has become a symbol of the legacy of the Hero, something inherited by all Links once they choose to weild it.

I'm feeling a little disapointed. I wanted to talk about the bird-like symbol on Link's many shields. The standard one features the Hylian pheonix, but the shield for the cel-shaded Links usually features a strange white, winged creature with a demonic/man's head. A wind spirit perhaps? A symbol of life and destruction that symbolizes the wind's dual nature? How about the shield for the original Link?

Zelda borrows a lot from conventional fantasy which also draws inspiration from old, polytheistic religions and to some extent, Christianity. It's not very widespread in Japan, so any similarities should be due to the fact that the series has its roots in traditional western fantasy. The Goddesses of Hyrule seem to be more traditional pagan style deities; each one of them has a different domain that they tend to. Attributes associated with Din are fire, power, and the Earthly/Material/Base Natures. With Naryu, water, wisdom, and intangible concepts such as philosophy and law. For Farore, wind, courage, and life/essence/aether.

Edited by avroillusion, 19 April 2009 - 08:27 PM.


#48 Anuril

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 09:27 PM

I feel so sorry that I even brought Religion into the Zelda symbolism thing. :cry:

I should have known that doing such a thing would only cause arguments. This will be my last reply to this topic. If the rest of you would like to duke it out about what Religion Zelda is most like, then that's fine. I just don't want to get banned or anything.

Heed my warning:Talking about Global issues, such as politics, economy, and Religion, will only lead to a dead end. I feel so ashamed of bringing a Global issue such as Religion into something so cool like Zelda.

Farewell, you can see me in some of the other topics I post in. But I dare not to compare Zelda to Religion again.

#49 SOAP

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Posted 19 April 2009 - 09:59 PM

...In the opening post, those are not symbols, but themes. Important themes in the Zelda franchise, but not symbols. <_<

A symbol is a thing that represents something else by association or resemblance. For example: the crying eye of the Sheikah, the phoenix of hyrule, the triforce insignia, the designs on OOT's medallions, the signs of Din, Naryu and Farore as seen in the Oracles series and the Wind Waker's pearls. People and things can also be considered as symbols, but I can't think of any right now...except for maybe Ganondorf from the Wind Waker and how he came to examplify old values, stagnation and the glory of old Hyrule. Majora may be another one, symbolizing chaos and selfish desire. The Master Sword has become a symbol of the legacy of the Hero, something inherited by all Links once they choose to weild it.

I'm feeling a little disapointed. I wanted to talk about the bird-like symbol on Link's many shields. The standard one features the Hylian pheonix, but the shield for the cel-shaded Links usually features a strange white, winged creature with a demonic/man's head. A wind spirit perhaps? A symbol of life and destruction that symbolizes the wind's dual nature? How about the shield for the original Link?

Zelda borrows a lot from conventional fantasy which also draws inspiration from old, polytheistic religions and to some extent, Christianity. It's not very widespread in Japan, so any similarities should be due to the fact that the series has its roots in traditional western fantasy. The Goddesses of Hyrule seem to be more traditional pagan style deities; each one of them has a different domain that they tend to. Attributes associated with Din are fire, power, and the Earthly/Material/Base Natures. With Naryu, water, wisdom, and intangible concepts such as philosophy and law. For Farore, wind, courage, and life/essence/aether.


I'm sorry you feel disappointed. We tend to get off topic [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. If you want to specifically discuss symbols, you may start a new thread about it since this one's old and has derailed.

As for the bird symbols, there's a lot of birds used as symbols throughout the game series especially in association with the Triforce. I think it's used to convey that that the Triforce is a heavenly object and how ancient beliefs often associate the physical sky with the ethereal. As for Limnk's sheild in TWW, it actually looks more like a dragon or a griffin to me.

#50 Arturo

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:43 AM

Arturo, do you realize the Forbidden Name, appears in every single post by MPS?

But since that text appears automatically, the spell doesn't work ^^

(Plus, I can't edit signatures XD)

#51 Duke Serkol

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 10:07 AM

since that text appears automatically, the spell doesn't work ^^


...Picman, Picman Kooloo-Limpah?

#52 Raien

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:31 AM

Avroillusion, symbolism refers to anything representing something else. Light represents benevolence in Zelda, hence it is a symbol for benevolence in Zelda.

#53 Duke Serkol

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 11:44 AM

And hey, if there's some particular symbols you wish to discuss Avroillusion, go ahead and discuss them :)

#54 Raien

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:21 PM

Yeah. One symbol that I don't believe has been discussed much (although I've been beating the drum pretty hard) is how the eye represents evil, or at least the adversary. Eyes are always something to be attacked to destroy evil or prevent the obstruction of justice. And the Sheikah eye, btw, is crying because the Sheikah represent the fight against evil. That has been their purpose in the Zelda mythos; to metaphorically make evil cry.

#55 Showsni

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 04:19 PM

Eyes are always something to be attacked to destroy evil or prevent the obstruction of justice. And the Sheikah eye, btw, is crying because the Sheikah represent the fight against evil. That has been their purpose in the Zelda mythos; to metaphorically make evil cry.


Not always; eyes also represent seeing the truth, hence the Lens of Truth and the Mask of Truth.
Posted Image
Possibly the teardrop on it represents weeping at being forced to see all the unpleasant truths in the world?


#56 Duke Serkol

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 07:36 PM

How do you guys prefer the mask of truth? As in the artwork or as in the game (where the "white" of the eye is a hole)?
I prefer the artwork. So much more mysterious (as to who is behind it and how it is seen through)

#57 Raien

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 09:52 AM

Showsni, the Mask of Truth and Lens of Truth were both Sheikah creations. The Sheikah made those weapons to help fight the Darkness, as they themselves do. The fact that they both have tears reinforces my position as to what the tear represents.

Edited by Raien, 21 April 2009 - 09:53 AM.


#58 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 11:40 AM

Showsni's interpretation works perfectly well, though. Hell, what are the Mazoku and the Youkai but the unpleasant truths to witness? What is Ganon, but the Truth of Hyrule's true destiny as a constant battleground?


aaaaaand allusion to epic Japanese fable +10! *cue RPG victory theme*

#59 avroillusion

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 11:42 AM

I forgot this topic existed. Personally, I think the eye is a symbol of perception and the ability to gather hidden knowledge, particularly magic. The open eye has been used for centuries as a symbol of awakening to higher knowledge or inner vision. It's use on items such as the Lens of Truth invoke this symbolism, while for mage enemies it may just symbolize their propensity for the magic arts.

Rather light being the symbol for Zelda, isn't Zelda a symbol of light? Light has conceptual and intangible aspects in the Zelda series, so it can not really be a symbol itself but can be represented by a symbol. (a tangible representative such as the Princess herself) I've already mentioned the symbols of the Goddesses, but I think the symbol of Hyrule is interesting as well. The Hyrulian Phoenix appears often on shields and royal garments, and I think it's a very inspiring symbol for Hyrule. No matter how many misfortunes befall it, the kingdom is bound to return as glorious as before. Also, it can be a symbol of Link, Zelda and Ganondorf's continuous struggle.

#60 Raien

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 12:31 PM

I forgot this topic existed. Personally, I think the eye is a symbol of perception and the ability to gather hidden knowledge, particularly magic. The open eye has been used for centuries as a symbol of awakening to higher knowledge or inner vision. It's use on items such as the Lens of Truth invoke this symbolism, while for mage enemies it may just symbolize their propensity for the magic arts.


Three things:

1) The only two items in the entire Zelda series that can be argued to invoke the eye as a symbol for perception are the Lens of Truth and the Mask of Truth. But note that both items were created by the Sheikah and both items actually feature the Sheikah symbol (the handle of the Lens of Truth is shaped to form the tear), not the general eye symbol. In addition to this, it is said that the Lens/Mask of Truth were actually designed to expose the illusions created by Darkness, and so their actual symbolic nature is tied much more strongly to the Sheikah's "fighting evil" dogma than to a general "perception" symbol.

2) The appearance of the eye in correspondence to "mage enemies" is, as far as I'm aware, limited just to Agahnim. And even if it does appear with general mage enemies, it should be noted that the eye never appears in correspondence with benevolent magic, just evil magic.

3) I would also like to, once again, highlight that the most common object to be struck in order to defeat evil is the eye. Regardless of whether they are switches or enemy weakpoints, the eye is symbollically an obstacle in the path of justice.

While I don't doubt what you say about the symbolism of the eye in real-world culture, I don't think the Zelda mythology shares that same symbolism. All evidence leads us to deduce the eye is a symbol for evil.




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