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IW Ganon =/= ALttP Ganon?


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#181 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 11:42 AM

"Probably by a prank of the gods, the fellow, too, was somebody chosen by the gods to have power."

This is Jumbies translation, and I see no difference between "divine prank" and "prank of the gods". Seriously, all this translation does is strengthen my argument, as it states that they were chose to "have power", which simply means to...have power. Meaning they only got the power of their respective goddess and not a piece of the Triforce. You act as if he goddesses can only give out power by handing out pieces of the Triforce. The goddesses are omnipotent, they are all powerful, they can give their power to whoever they please. They don't need the Triforce to do so.


I know they're omnipotent, but WHY would they give their power in such a manner that time, and no other time in Hyrulian history? And besides, "probably", along with the context, makes me think it's just a poetic way of referencing a twist in fate. The Greeks had the same expression, and the Golden Goddesses don't seem like the type to just randomly pull pranks after 20 or so years of establishing them as distant, Deistic, Determinist deities.

Also, look at my post if you are still confused as to why Ockham's razor is useless in Zelda. Besides, if someone is multiplying entities for an explanation it is you. You claim they die and they are revived, but we claim they never die in the first place, thus using one entity to solve this mystery, so stop being hypocritical.


I claim they die because the dialog heavily, HEAVILY implies it, and they lost human form. You claim that all this "drama" and "elegant plot design" exists without any evidence. Ockham's Razor or not, that's not a good way to debate.

The purpose of the crystals in ALTTP was to simplify the appearance of the Maidens, as well as allow Link to effectively carry the maidens in his pockets. It was simpler to depict crystals on the item and map screens, as well as when the crystals spun around to break the barrier to Ganon's Tower.


From a gameplay perspective, sure, but we're talking about storyline. I highly doubt Agahnim figured, "Hm, we should turn them into little crystals so Link can carry them easier."

But as for the state of the Maidens inside the crystals, it could be that their souls are simply trapped or it could be that their bodies have been transformed to fit inside the crystals. It's like when Vaati was sealed inside the Four Sword; he wasn't killed so that his soul could fit inside the sword, his body was transformed to fit inside. Your argument is a possibility, but my argument is just as valid.


Vaati wasn't really "Transformed" to fit inside, since he was a gas anyway. If they didn't have to be killed, I don't see why being transformed into crystals would be necessary. Why not just lock them up in rooms, or atleast turn them into Dark World denizens like everyone else?

Because it makes the first part of the game more interesting for the player.


You're pretty much the only person who's ever brought up "drama" in LTTP, so either Nintendo is really that bad at conveying emotion, or drama wasn't on their minds at all. Giving Nintendo's success rate at putting emotion in their stories, I'll vote for the latter.

Or, he just released from their crystal prisons. The ending subtitle says "The king is revived.", not "The king and maidens are revived." after all. It's speculation that the Triforce was needed to break the crystals; I really don't see how this supports your argument.


The subtitle thing is true, but the fact that the crystals only broke after Link seized the Triforce, and that they're visually shown with the King, implies a causal relation. There's more to analyzing Zelda than the text. Besides, either way, the Triforce was used as a Deus Ex Machina to solve all the problems of the game. That's the whole point of that scene montage.

As said in the other topic, Ganondorf was able to conquer Hyrule with the ToP alone, but needed the other pieces to prevent others from contesting his rulership. That alone would be reason to take the other pieces in TP.


He probably either doesn't care due to being too arrogant, or he might not be aware, in this incarnation, that the Triforce pieces can be taken.

Plus, he was more concerned with the Power of Darkness than the divine power he had, Triforce or not. His own dialog seems to convey that he believes that the Goddesses basically CHOSE him to rule Hyrule, and if he's chosen by the Gods, how can anyone possibly stop him? I cite a case of "MacBeth".

#182 Raien

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 11:58 AM

From a gameplay perspective, sure, but we're talking about storyline. I highly doubt Agahnim figured, "Hm, we should turn them into little crystals so Link can carry them easier."


Gameplay justifies events in the story; especially in regards to The Legend of Zelda. The Maidens are sealed in crystals because the developers thought the crystals most appropriate to be depicted as sprites.

Vaati wasn't really "Transformed" to fit inside, since he was a gas anyway. If they didn't have to be killed, I don't see why being transformed into crystals would be necessary. Why not just lock them up in rooms, or at least turn them into Dark World denizens like everyone else?


Agahnim wasn't a gas and neither was Ganon, who was also sealed inside the Four Sword.

You're pretty much the only person who's ever brought up "drama" in LTTP, so either Nintendo is really that bad at conveying emotion, or drama wasn't on their minds at all. Giving Nintendo's success rate at putting emotion in their stories, I'll vote for the latter.


This is your opinion, not proof of your argument.

The subtitle thing is true, but the fact that the crystals only broke after Link seized the Triforce, and that they're visually shown with the King, implies a causal relation. There's more to analyzing Zelda than the text. Besides, either way, the Triforce was used as a Deus Ex Machina to solve all the problems of the game. That's the whole point of that scene montage.


I disagree. The Maidens were broken free from the crystals at the end of the game because the crystals had served their purpose as gameplay devices. As for their appearance next to the king, that is because they are all the protectors of Hyrule; there is no statement or suggestion that they hade undergone a revival.

He probably either doesn't care due to being too arrogant, or he might not be aware, in this incarnation, that the Triforce pieces can be taken.


TP Ganondorf's character is more-or-less identical to OoT Ganondorf; he had the ToP and had conquered Hyrule. The only realistic reason why he would not attempt to take the other powers is because he could not; they are not Triforce pieces.

Plus, he was more concerned with the Power of Darkness than the divine power he had, Triforce or not. His own dialog seems to convey that he believes that the Goddesses basically CHOSE him to rule Hyrule, and if he's chosen by the Gods, how can anyone possibly stop him? I cite a case of "MacBeth".


Macbeth was still aware that another could contest his power, hence the rule about "no man of woman born would be able to kill him".

#183 NM87

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 10:22 PM

I know they're omnipotent, but WHY would they give their power in such a manner that time, and no other time in Hyrulian history? And besides, "probably", along with the context, makes me think it's just a poetic way of referencing a twist in fate. The Greeks had the same expression, and the Golden Goddesses don't seem like the type to just randomly pull pranks after 20 or so years of establishing them as distant, Deistic, Determinist deities.


TP is one hundred years after the time of OOT, what’s so improbable about this? Its not like the Goddesses are going o prank everyone right after disaster in OOT was avoided. They waited for a time when their chosen one, Ganondorf, was ready to receive his power. TP is about the balance of light and dark needed in the universe, so if Ganondorf dies without clashing against the chosen hero, wouldn't the balance be thrown off?

I claim they die because the dialog heavily, HEAVILY implies it, and they lost human form. You claim that all this "drama" and "elegant plot design" exists without any evidence. Ockham's Razor or not, that's not a good way to debate.


What drama are you talking about? What is so elegant about simply stating the maidens did not die? Don't lecture me on how to argue, I am not the one repeating over and over again that my claims are "heavily heavily supported" but the game because I think so.

Edited by NM87, 18 May 2008 - 10:40 PM.


#184 Ize

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 11:33 PM

If the maidens were sacrificed and in fact completely killed, shouldn't they be in 'heaven' or someplace like that? Why would they be banished to the dark world and be imprisoned (which implies they were deliberately placed there by Ganon) if they are already dead?

TP Ganondorf had no intention or need to take the other triforce crests, he already rules Hyrule and neve mentions Link's or Zelda's crests. Let's remember this Ganondorf neve entered the sacred realm, so he doesn't know about the splitting characteristics of the triforce, perhaps he even believes he has the whole 'power of the gods', but it's irrelevant. He only wanted the triforce to rule Hyrule, and he has already done that, so if there are other parts or anything, he's pretty confident he'll crush anyone that stands up to him, triforce or not. He believes he is the 'chosen one'.

And about the divine prank, while it may seem like a terrible deux ex machina now, I'm sure we'll learn more about it as nintendo releases more games.

(I gave my opinion about the divine prank in a thread a while ago)

#185 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 12:42 AM

Gameplay justifieshttp://forums.legendsalliance.com/style_images/black_crys/folder_editor_images/rte-quote-button.png
Wrap in quote tags events in the story; especially in regards to The Legend of Zelda. The Maidens are sealed in crystals because the developers thought the crystals most appropriate to be depicted as sprites.


In that case, why theorize timelining? Everything is "The developers thought so." Problem solved.

Agahnim wasn't a gas and neither was Ganon, who was also sealed inside the Four Sword.


Er...Agahnim was never sealed in the Four Sword, but as for Ganon, he demonstrates the power to turn into gas, and indeed remained in that form when chasing after Link and Zelda.

This is your opinion, not proof of your argument.


Same for your "drama" point.

I disagree. The Maidens were broken free from the crystals at the end of the game because the crystals had served their purpose as gameplay devices. As for their appearance next to the king, that is because they are all the protectors of Hyrule; there is no statement or suggestion that they hade undergone a revival.


We're discussing in-universe storyline. "gameplay lol" is a copout.

TP Ganondorf's character is more-or-less identical to OoT Ganondorf; he had the ToP and had conquered Hyrule. The only realistic reason why he would not attempt to take the other powers is because he could not; they are not Triforce pieces.


And how would he know he could not? Why wouldn't he try anyway using some sort of siphoning technique like Vaati did for the Light Force, maybe? His character is different though. Ganondorf of OOT acknowledges his own machinations as credit, but in TP, Ganondorf seems to think that he was LITERALLY chosen by the Goddesses to rule. OOT Ganondorf has no such belief. He believes he DESERVES to rule, but that's not the same as being chosen.

Macbeth was still aware that another could contest his power, hence the rule about "no man of woman born would be able to kill him".


Macbeth reasoned that since all men are born from a woman, that he was invincible. He got cocky and arrogant, and that became his downfall. Same for TP Ganondorf, it seems.

TP is one hundred years after the time of OOT, what’s so improbable about this? Its not like the Goddesses are going o prank everyone right after disaster in OOT was avoided. They waited for a time when their chosen one, Ganondorf, was ready to receive his power. TP is about the balance of light and dark needed in the universe, so if Ganondorf dies without clashing against the chosen hero, wouldn't the balance be thrown off?


The question is why would the Goddesses prank at all? The balance is between Light and Shadow, which exist as harmonious sides of a coin. Ganondorf's Power of Darkness is a third, corrupt force that seems to go against the natural order of things.

If the maidens were sacrificed and in fact completely killed, shouldn't they be in 'heaven' or someplace like that? Why would they be banished to the dark world and be imprisoned (which implies they were deliberately placed there by Ganon) if they are already dead?


The idea would be that Ganon had their souls sealed so that their passing wouldn't anoint another Sage/Maiden to take their place. Admittedly, it was one of Davogones' old ideas back when he was active, and I liked it.

TP Ganondorf had no intention or need to take the other triforce crests, he already rules Hyrule and neve mentions Link's or Zelda's crests. Let's remember this Ganondorf neve entered the sacred realm, so he doesn't know about the splitting characteristics of the triforce, perhaps he even believes he has the whole 'power of the gods', but it's irrelevant. He only wanted the triforce to rule Hyrule, and he has already done that, so if there are other parts or anything, he's pretty confident he'll crush anyone that stands up to him, triforce or not. He believes he is the 'chosen one'.

And about the divine prank, while it may seem like a terrible deux ex machina now, I'm sure we'll learn more about it as nintendo releases more games.


THANK YOU.

#186 CID Farwin

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:06 AM

So long as anyone maintains the importance of the words 'Divine Prank,' I will maintain that this is what the 'Divine Prank' entails(some of you may remember this):

prank2 /præŋk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[prangk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object)
1. to dress or adorn in an ostentatious manner: They were all pranked out in their fanciest clothes.
–verb (used without object)
2. to make an ostentatious show or display.
[Origin: 1540–50; akin to D pronken to show off, strut, pronk show, finery, MLG prank pomp]

So the Godesses were pranking out their fancy new clothes, when Din accidentally dropped the Triforce of Power, which landed on Ganondorf's head just as he was getting executed.



#187 FDL

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 11:33 AM

I'd like to mention that "having power" could mean Ganondorf had power from birth or that he was destined to break into the Sacred Realm. It doesn't mean that the gods literally gave him power. In fact, the words "the gods gave him their power" or some variation are absent. In TWW Link is considered chosen by the gods merely because the Triforce of Courage started to reside within him(rather than appear as an item like it did before he shpwed it at the Tower of the Gods). This could be a similar case.

#188 NM87

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 01:06 PM

I'd like to mention that "having power" could mean Ganondorf had power from birth or that he was destined to break into the Sacred Realm. It doesn't mean that the gods literally gave him power. In fact, the words "the gods gave him their power" or some variation are absent. In TWW Link is considered chosen by the gods merely because the Triforce of Courage started to reside within him(rather than appear as an item like it did before he shpwed it at the Tower of the Gods). This could be a similar case.


Now this is something I overlooked, which I think adds a whole new level of support to the crests not being pieces of Triforce. Perhaps all three of the chosen ones could have had it since birth and only began to show it when their life was threatened. Ganondorf was almost killed, while Link and Zelda were both suddenly trapped in Twilight.

The question is why would the Goddesses prank at all?


Its possible that they have knowledge of the events in a sepearate reality. Its possible that the "gods are fickle", like the Greek gods were, and Nintendo was going for that. The very nature of a prank is "a mischievous trick or silly stunt done for amusement".

#189 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 01:35 PM

Now this is something I overlooked, which I think adds a whole new level of support to the crests not being pieces of Triforce. Perhaps all three of the chosen ones could have had it since birth and only began to show it when their life was threatened. Ganondorf was almost killed, while Link and Zelda were both suddenly trapped in Twilight.


If anything, it's only proof that they have the Triforce, in my opinion.

Its possible that they have knowledge of the events in a sepearate reality. Its possible that the "gods are fickle", like the Greek gods were, and Nintendo was going for that. The very nature of a prank is "a mischievous trick or silly stunt done for amusement".


The goddesses aren't fickle though, by nature of being weavers of destiny, which is totally un-fickle by it's essence. A prank would be ridiculously out of character. Besides, our only source for the "prank" thing are overconfident old men who, despite being Sages, aren't really the mouthpieces of the goddesses. It's not like they truly know what goes through their heads. And besides, I believe the wording was "As if by a divine prank." As if implies analogy.

#190 NM87

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 02:18 PM

The goddesses aren't fickle though, by nature of being weavers of destiny, which is totally un-fickle by it's essence. A prank would be ridiculously out of character. Besides, our only source for the "prank" thing are overconfident old men who, despite being Sages, aren't really the mouthpieces of the goddesses. It's not like they truly know what goes through their heads. And besides, I believe the wording was "As if by a divine prank." As if implies analogy.


This was your most interesting response yet. I do agree with your interpretation of the goddesses, which is pretty solid, but its a double-edged sword. If the goddesses are all about destiny, then perhaps they had foreseen the events of OOT which we can dub the "Great Cataclysm" and didn't want there to be another reality where the destined "Great Cataclysm” does not begin.

#191 Raien

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Posted 19 May 2008 - 06:00 PM

In that case, why theorize timelining? Everything is "The developers thought so." Problem solved.


My point is that the action of sealing the Maidens in crystals and hiding them in eight dungeons across the Dark World is not motivated by anything in the storyline; it only serves the purpose of making Link conquer each of the eight dungeons in order to be allowed to fight the final battle. The crystals are basic extensions of the pendants; they fall down from off-screen when the boss monster is defeated, and the usual victory music is played. If Ganon did have a motivation for the crystals, then it would be explained in the game, and we wouldn't be having this debate.

Er...Agahnim was never sealed in the Four Sword, but as for Ganon, he demonstrates the power to turn into gas, and indeed remained in that form when chasing after Link and Zelda.


You're nitpicking here. Characters' forms can be forcibly changed, whether or not they possess the ability to change at will. Link is forcibly changed into a wolf; the Twili are forcibly changed into shadow beasts; the Maidens are forcibly changed to fit inside small crystals.

And how would he know he could not?


Ganondorf has Princess Zelda, and she still has her divine power, doesn't she? Wouldn't he have taken her power, if he could? It's not like taking Zelda's power as soon as he could would have any adverse effects, and I don't see how believing to be a chosen king would make him any less wary of the fact that there is a chosen "antithesis" (hence, as HoL said, the Bulblins were checking the Ordon kids for the crest). He would want that power to confront the antithesis.


PS: I also want to make the point that in the context of the Sages' dialogue; "divine prank" is simply a phrase to show the Sages' disbelief that the goddesses could award Ganondorf power. It's not a literal joke, as I think some people here are suggesting.

Edited by Raian, 19 May 2008 - 06:33 PM.


#192 Ize

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 03:31 AM

Yes, it was evidently a way of speaking,the sages had no explanation. They just saw Ganondorf using a power he should have not obtained.
They could have said 'as if by a miracle he too had been blessed...' just as well, and that wouldn't imply some sort of foul play on the part of the gods.

The idea would be that Ganon had their souls sealed so that their passing wouldn't anoint another Sage/Maiden to take their place. Admittedly, it was one of Davogones' old ideas back when he was active, and I liked it.


That seems like a great idea, but it's pure speculation. Remember back then the only way to achieve 'sagehood' was by bloodline. The maidens were stated to be direct descendants of the old men who sealed Ganon before. Even if you consider OoT as the IW (I don't), this game was made before that, so then the accepted fact was that there were these girls who cointained a fraction of the power of their ancestors, the sages. And Zelda goes through the same 'sacrifice', yet she communicates with link using the same 'white bricks' Sahasralha used, and even then she states to be captured inside turtle rock, which means she is alive.

#193 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 11:28 AM

This was your most interesting response yet. I do agree with your interpretation of the goddesses, which is pretty solid, but its a double-edged sword. If the goddesses are all about destiny, then perhaps they had foreseen the events of OOT which we can dub the "Great Cataclysm" and didn't want there to be another reality where the destined "Great Cataclysm” does not begin.


Actually, only the events of LTTP fit the "Great Cataclysm", since that event was in regards to Ganondorf acquiring the entirety of the Triforce. Names of events aside, however, I don't see why the Goddesses would cause rampant destruction and suffering just because. They're the ones who split the damn timeline, so I don't think they mind if the child timeline doesn't follow the events of Adult OOT.

My point is that the action of sealing the Maidens in crystals and hiding them in eight dungeons across the Dark World is not motivated by anything in the storyline; it only serves the purpose of making Link conquer each of the eight dungeons in order to be allowed to fight the final battle. The crystals are basic extensions of the pendants; they fall down from off-screen when the boss monster is defeated, and the usual victory music is played. If Ganon did have a motivation for the crystals, then it would be explained in the game, and we wouldn't be having this debate.


Yes, I'm well aware of that. However, if we're gonna be discussing them, we should treat them as if there is a storyline explanation or else there's no fun or meaning to the activity of storyline discussion. We'd have to stop pondering a lot of things because of "gameplay."

You're nitpicking here. Characters' forms can be forcibly changed, whether or not they possess the ability to change at will. Link is forcibly changed into a wolf; the Twili are forcibly changed into shadow beasts; the Maidens are forcibly changed to fit inside small crystals.


I'm aware. Though the wording in the Japanese script, along with passages in the LTTP Manga (which, while non-canon, does offer possible developer's viewpoints) imply, or outright state, that the Maidens are physically dead.

Ganondorf has Princess Zelda, and she still has her divine power, doesn't she? Wouldn't he have taken her power, if he could? It's not like taking Zelda's power as soon as he could would have any adverse effects, and I don't see how believing to be a chosen king would make him any less wary of the fact that there is a chosen "antithesis" (hence, as HoL said, the Bulblins were checking the Ordon kids for the crest). He would want that power to confront the antithesis.


Princess Zelda's body is lacking her soul and powers.

PS: I also want to make the point that in the context of the Sages' dialogue; "divine prank" is simply a phrase to show the Sages' disbelief that the goddesses could award Ganondorf power. It's not a literal joke, as I think some people here are suggesting.


Well, obviously. And if they don't know the reasoning behind Ganondorf's acquiring of power, then a Triforce piece he acquired from before he tried to attack Hyrule isn't out of the question, if not likely.

Yes, it was evidently a way of speaking,the sages had no explanation. They just saw Ganondorf using a power he should have not obtained.
They could have said 'as if by a miracle he too had been blessed...' just as well, and that wouldn't imply some sort of foul play on the part of the gods.


Right. So for all we know, the goddesses have nothing to do with the entire scenario, but due to the horribly unlucky turn of events, the Sages basically blame the deities, just like people do in real life.

That seems like a great idea, but it's pure speculation. Remember back then the only way to achieve 'sagehood' was by bloodline.


I'm aware. Though it is worth noting that in Japanese mythology and fantasy, bloodlines aren't exactly genetic, and are more spiritual in interpretation. There are many stories involving magical, Sage-like figures, such as Abe no Seimei, who pass on their spiritual bloodline without actually having blood descendants. The Abe no Seimei example, explicitly stated to have no children whatsoever, but canonically has a son and grandson that wield his power.

And Abe no Seimei is as "Sage" as you can get in real life mythology.

The maidens were stated to be direct descendants of the old men who sealed Ganon before. Even if you consider OoT as the IW (I don't), this game was made before that, so then the accepted fact was that there were these girls who cointained a fraction of the power of their ancestors, the sages. And Zelda goes through the same 'sacrifice', yet she communicates with link using the same 'white bricks' Sahasralha used, and even then she states to be captured inside turtle rock, which means she is alive.


How does that mean she's alive? That can easily mean "my soul is captured", etc. It's not like binding souls is anything new in the Zelda franchise alone, much less fantasy. And if you have telepathic powers in life, you'll probably still have them in death.

#194 NM87

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 12:33 PM

Actually, only the events of LTTP fit the "Great Cataclysm", since that event was in regards to Ganondorf acquiring the entirety of the Triforce. Names of events aside, however, I don't see why the Goddesses would cause rampant destruction and suffering just because. They're the ones who split the damn timeline, so I don't think they mind if the child timeline doesn't follow the events of Adult OOT.


The "Great Cataclysm” can simply mean that whenever there is evil there will be good o oppose it, and vise versa. I also don't think the goddesses split the timeline, since it was Zelda who decided to send Link back in time and create another reality.

#195 Raien

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:11 PM

Yes, I'm well aware of that. However, if we're gonna be discussing them, we should treat them as if there is a storyline explanation or else there's no fun or meaning to the activity of storyline discussion. We'd have to stop pondering a lot of things because of "gameplay."


But here's the thing. You're saying that the Maidens could not have been transformed to fit inside the crystal; they must have been killed. Yet if their presence within the crystals was not developed as the product of death or transformation, then whichever one we choose to fit in the storyline is going to be equally valid. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying there's absolutely nothing in the evidence to prove me wrong. There's no advantage to be had; no point in even attempting to say one answer must be incorrect.

I'm aware. Though the wording in the Japanese script, along with passages in the LTTP Manga (which, while non-canon, does offer possible developer's viewpoints) imply, or outright state, that the Maidens are physically dead.


In the Light World, to add drama.

Princess Zelda's body is lacking her soul and powers.


It wasn't when control of Hyrule was taken from her. In the stretch of time between that point and the point when she gives her power to Midna, Ganondorf could have taken her power, but didn't.

Edited by Raian, 20 May 2008 - 02:12 PM.


#196 Hero of Legend

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 02:57 PM

It wasn't when control of Hyrule was taken from her. In the stretch of time between that point and the point when she gives her power to Midna, Ganondorf could have taken her power, but didn't.

On the other hand, he didn't do that while he had her in OoT (or TWW) either.

Heh. Come to think of it though, she was trapped in a crystal, so he probably didn't do it because she was dead... Eh, MPS?

PS: In case you couldn't tell, that was a joke.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 20 May 2008 - 03:18 PM.


#197 Raien

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 03:28 PM

On the other hand, he didn't do that while he had her in OoT (or TWW) either.


Well, in that case, I'm just going to drop out with the point that a lot of what people believe about TP's story is assumed based on events in previous games, rather than what is actually said or suggested in TP itself. Given that previous games like TWW normally explain to the players when something important to the plot has occurred, like the appearance of the Triforce, I think the absence of information is due to TP breaking conventions of the franchise; effectively simplifying the Zelda mythology.

PS: As for the argument that details were left out because they were generally irrelevant to the main plot, that only works if the plot detail is entirely removed from the story. To depict an event but not explain it just creates a gaping plot hole.

Edited by Raian, 20 May 2008 - 06:31 PM.


#198 CID Farwin

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Posted 20 May 2008 - 11:18 PM

On the other hand, he didn't do that while he had her in OoT (or TWW) either.


Well, in that case, I'm just going to drop out with the point that a lot of what people believe about TP's story is assumed based on events in previous games, rather than what is actually said or suggested in TP itself. Given that previous games like TWW normally explain to the players when something important to the plot has occurred, like the appearance of the Triforce, I think the absence of information is due to TP breaking conventions of the franchise; effectively simplifying the Zelda mythology.

PS: As for the argument that details were left out because they were generally irrelevant to the main plot, that only works if the plot detail is entirely removed from the story. To depict an event but not explain it just creates a gaping plot hole.

Of course it's assumed based on previous games! Nintendo focused attention away from Ganon/Triforce in order to focus on the main plot of the game, which wasn't the Triforce or Ganon. Le Gasp! Isn't that what everyone's asking for? The main plot is the whole Twili duality stuff. Maybe, just maybe, Nintendo actually tried to give us some credit for once? Maybe they didn't cover the whole semantics of the "power of the Gods" because they gave us enough credit to be able to figure out that it's the Triforce? But no, that's not what's happened. Instead we get these theories of how it must not be the Triforce because they didn't say it was! Even though it is the Triforce in everything but name. This is why they have to go spell stuff out for us, because if they don't this happens.

(Sorry, Raian, not much of that was aimed at you. I just went into rant mode.)

#199 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:51 AM

The "Great Cataclysm” can simply mean that whenever there is evil there will be good o oppose it, and vise versa. I also don't think the goddesses split the timeline, since it was Zelda who decided to send Link back in time and create another reality.


The Great Cataclysm specifically refers to evil possessing the Triforce. That's a fact.

And no. Just no. You cannot seriously be suggesting that Zelda has enough power to split THE ENTIRETY OF REALITY into two. That's Full Triforce-level power.

But here's the thing. You're saying that the Maidens could not have been transformed to fit inside the crystal; they must have been killed. Yet if their presence within the crystals was not developed as the product of death or transformation, then whichever one we choose to fit in the storyline is going to be equally valid. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm saying there's absolutely nothing in the evidence to prove me wrong. There's no advantage to be had; no point in even attempting to say one answer must be incorrect.


I never said they "couldn't" have transformed, I just disagreed with it because the evidence leaned towards their actual dying. But whatever. This point is going nowhere. It's not like there's a real distinction between life and death in the Dark World anyway, it's practically a mindscape.

It wasn't when control of Hyrule was taken from her. In the stretch of time between that point and the point when she gives her power to Midna, Ganondorf could have taken her power, but didn't.


No he couldn't, because Ganondorf was still stuck in the Twilight Realm in Spirit Form. He doesn't enter Hyrule until he forms a barrier around the castle.

Heh. Come to think of it though, she was trapped in a crystal, so he probably didn't do it because she was dead... Eh, MPS?


A full body-sized crystal != pocket-sized gem. Besides, you're a shitty reader. My original point of content involved how the Maiden crystals were UNLIKE OOT Zelda's crystal.

PS: In case you couldn't tell, that was a joke.


I know. Fuck off and die.

Of course it's assumed based on previous games! Nintendo focused attention away from Ganon/Triforce in order to focus on the main plot of the game, which wasn't the Triforce or Ganon. Le Gasp! Isn't that what everyone's asking for? The main plot is the whole Twili duality stuff. Maybe, just maybe, Nintendo actually tried to give us some credit for once? Maybe they didn't cover the whole semantics of the "power of the Gods" because they gave us enough credit to be able to figure out that it's the Triforce? But no, that's not what's happened. Instead we get these theories of how it must not be the Triforce because they didn't say it was! Even though it is the Triforce in everything but name. This is why they have to go spell stuff out for us, because if they don't this happens.


This post was so full of win it caused me to have a moment of adult pleasure.

#200 Hero of Legend

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 10:35 AM

I know. Fuck off and die.

Hah, you're so predictable! But don't worry, I like you anyway.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 May 2008 - 11:41 AM.


#201 FDL

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 12:24 PM

The "Great Cataclysm” can simply mean that whenever there is evil there will be good o oppose it, and vise versa. I also don't think the goddesses split the timeline, since it was Zelda who decided to send Link back in time and create another reality.


It's actually technically Link who caused the split, as he stopped Ganondorf from taking over.

Of course it's assumed based on previous games! Nintendo focused attention away from Ganon/Triforce in order to focus on the main plot of the game, which wasn't the Triforce or Ganon. Le Gasp! Isn't that what everyone's asking for? The main plot is the whole Twili duality stuff. Maybe, just maybe, Nintendo actually tried to give us some credit for once? Maybe they didn't cover the whole semantics of the "power of the Gods" because they gave us enough credit to be able to figure out that it's the Triforce? But no, that's not what's happened. Instead we get these theories of how it must not be the Triforce because they didn't say it was! Even though it is the Triforce in everything but name. This is why they have to go spell stuff out for us, because if they don't this happens.


QFMFT.

Hah, you're so predictable! But don't worry, I like you anyway.


Sometimes I get the feeling you know how you'd beat every single one of us in a debate. Like Batman and the Justice League. This quote makes me more suspicious..... :whistle:

#202 Raien

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 01:29 PM

Of course it's assumed based on previous games! Nintendo focused attention away from Ganon/Triforce in order to focus on the main plot of the game, which wasn't the Triforce or Ganon. Le Gasp! Isn't that what everyone's asking for? The main plot is the whole Twili duality stuff. Maybe, just maybe, Nintendo actually tried to give us some credit for once? Maybe they didn't cover the whole semantics of the "power of the Gods" because they gave us enough credit to be able to figure out that it's the Triforce? But no, that's not what's happened. Instead we get these theories of how it must not be the Triforce because they didn't say it was! Even though it is the Triforce in everything but name. This is why they have to go spell stuff out for us, because if they don't this happens.


What do you mean that Ganon and the Triforce were not important to the game? They instigated the main events of the story and were continually referenced throughout. So what you're saying is that Nintendo deliberately witheld information relating to the powers that instigated the entire game's events, because veteran players already know about it? What about the new players for whom, given the Wii's target audience, Twilight Princess was expected to be their first Zelda game, as an introduction to the franchise and hardcore gaming in general? Don't they deserve to know about the power that instigates the entire plot? Wouldn't they naturally ask questions about the information that was witheld from them because they happened to have been born a bit too early to appreciate Nintendo gaming in the 1990s (or god forbid they didn't even own a N64 or Gamecube)? Given that the Zelda developers have said that the individual story should not be confusing before TP was released, what reason would they have to actively break that philosophy when it was needed most?

My point is simple; if we take the view that TP's story is not reliant on previous Zelda games to understand (and we just take the information from the story provided in the game), we have a simple series of events that progress quite naturally over the course of the game. If, however, we take the view that TP's story relies on events that took place in OoT/TWW to explain itself, we have to speculate that these events must have taken place under different circumstances (in the Child Timeline), we have to speculate that the story is deliberately ambiguous for a speculative reason, and we have to speculate over the plot holes that come from applying plot elements that don't actually play a part in the game's narrative (like what happens to the Triforce when Ganondorf dies).

Perhaps the "power of the gods" was the Triforce; I never claimed it couldn't be. But I think pretty much everything else that has been forced into TP's storyline is unnecessary speculation on the part of theorists. It's one thing to look at parallels and judge them to be connected, but it's another to assume parallels must exist when there's no evidence to show for it. It's like saying "Vaati was after Zelda's life force in TMC, so he must have kidnapped Zelda to take her life force in FS/FSA."

Edited by Raian, 21 May 2008 - 01:49 PM.


#203 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 01:52 PM

Hah, you're so predictable! But don't worry, I like you anyway.


You can stop acting like a petulant, bratty child any time now.

What do you mean that Ganon and the Triforce were not important to the game?


"Not the main focus of the plot" does not mean "not important to the game." Don't put words in his mouth.

What about the new players for whom, given the Wii's target audience, Twilight Princess was expected to be their first Zelda game, as an introduction to the franchise and hardcore gaming in general?


Well, technically, TP was basically fanservice to the OOT veterans, if I remember that interview quote right. Besides, a new player will probably just figure, "Alright, these three have special powers from the gods", which, if they go on to be fans of the other games, will quickly lead them to concluding that it's the Triforce.

My point is simple; if we take the view that TP's story is not reliant on previous Zelda games to understand (and we just take the information from the story provided in the game), we have a simple series of events that progress quite naturally over the course of the game. If, however, we take the view that TP's story relies on events that took place in OoT/TWW to explain itself, we have to speculate that these events must have taken place under different circumstances (in the narrative), we have to speculate that the story is deliberately ambiguous for a speculative reason, and we have to speculate over the plot holes that come from applying plot elements that don't actually play a part in the game's narrative (like what happens to the Triforce when Ganondorf dies).


We face that problem with EVERY NEW GAME, that's why storylining is such a mess. Get over it, TP's situation isn't different from any other game's.

#204 Hero of Legend

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 01:52 PM

Sometimes I get the feeling you know how you'd beat every single one of us in a debate. Like Batman and the Justice League. This quote makes me more suspicious.....

Heh, I'll take that as a compliment, though our debate about the OoT-references in TWW and TP didn't exactly end in victory for either of us... :deadlink:

Perhaps the "power of the gods" was the Triforce; I never claimed it couldn't be. But I think pretty much everything else that has been forced into TP's storyline is unnecessary speculation on the part of theorists. It's one thing to look at parallels and judge them to be connected, but it's another to assume parallels must exist when there's no evidence to show for it.

Triforce marks that look identical* to the ones in OoT and TWW constitutes reason enough, I'd say. It is we who make up the plot holes too, because we don't know what happens to a person that dies with a Triforce piece still inside him. Also, if Nintendo wanted to introduce a new power, they could have made it a lot less Triforce-like - or so I would say, but Duke does have a point about the Light Force...

*Technically they are slightly different because in TP they are always seen on their hands, and when they use their power the entire crest glows like a single triangle. Of course, such slight visual differences don't prove anything.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 21 May 2008 - 01:54 PM.


#205 Raien

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 02:06 PM

"Not the main focus of the plot" does not mean "not important to the game." Don't put words in his mouth.


Fine. What do you mean that the Triforce and Ganon are not the main focus on the plot, given that they are referenced in several places throughout the course of the game and Ganon is central to the game's ending? You can't just ignore something like Link's wolf transformation and the final boss battle.

We face that problem with EVERY NEW GAME, that's why storylining is such a mess. Get over it, TP's situation isn't different from any other game's.


Well, perhaps if theorists weren't so willing to jump into speculation with every new game, then timeline theorising wouldn't be such a mess. But instead, we have to debate the unflooding of Hyrule because ALTTP must follow TWW, and we have to debate Ganon magically travelling from the Four Sword to the Sacred Realm because FSA must lead into ALTTP. Perhaps if theorists looked at the evidence before the placement, we wouldn't have to debate stuff like this.


Triforce marks that look identical* to the ones in OoT and TWW constitutes reason enough, I'd say. It is we who make up the plot holes too, because we don't know what happens to a person that dies with a Triforce piece still inside him. Also, if Nintendo wanted to introduce a new power, they could have made it a lot less Triforce-like - or so I would say, but Duke does have a point about the Light Force...


As I said in my previous post, I can live quite happily with the trio possessing the Triforce in TP, because I agree that the similarities are visible enough to support the justification. My problem is with everything else that's being debated, like the back stories. I just don't understand why characters can't say exactly what they mean; theorists must always attach an arbitrary event that was said to occur in a previous game, and they then justify the absence of evidence with some ridiculous excuse like "It simplifies things".

And btw, Vaati is in TP, but he's not shown or mentioned in order to simplify the story (the developers didn't want Vaati to be the main focus of the game).

Edited by Raian, 21 May 2008 - 02:26 PM.


#206 CID Farwin

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 05:17 PM

"Not the main focus of the plot" does not mean "not important to the game." Don't put words in his mouth.


Fine. What do you mean that the Triforce and Ganon are not the main focus on the plot, given that they are referenced in several places throughout the course of the game and Ganon is central to the game's ending? You can't just ignore something like Link's wolf transformation and the final boss battle.

You seem to be confused with terms, here. Main plot =/= Main focus of plot. Just because the focus of a plot is on one thing doesn't mean that the rest is somehow unimportant. Allow me to give an outside example of such an instance: Cloverfield. Rather than make a traditional cliche monster movie, J. J. Abrams instead decided to focus the plot on a group of friends who had a video camera and their experiences during the monster attack. Does that make the "main" plot of the monster attack any less main? no. but the main focus of the plot is different. The movie doesn't show exactly how everything went down, but based on previous monster movies, as well as what you see, one can pretty well piece it together.

Well, perhaps if theorists weren't so willing to jump into speculation with every new game, then timeline theorising wouldn't be such a mess. But instead, we have to debate the unflooding of Hyrule because ALTTP must follow TWW, and we have to debate Ganon magically traveling from the Four Sword to the Sacred Realm because FSA must lead into ALTTP. Perhaps if theorists looked at the evidence before the placement, we wouldn't have to debate stuff like this.

*looks around* He's not here, and is by no means representative of the rest of us, so you can simmer down.

Triforce marks that look identical* to the ones in OoT and TWW constitutes reason enough, I'd say. It is we who make up the plot holes too, because we don't know what happens to a person that dies with a Triforce piece still inside him. Also, if Nintendo wanted to introduce a new power, they could have made it a lot less Triforce-like - or so I would say, but Duke does have a point about the Light Force...


As I said in my previous post, I can live quite happily with the trio possessing the Triforce in TP, because I agree that the similarities are visible enough to support the justification. My problem is with everything else that's being debated, like the back stories. I just don't understand why characters can't say exactly what they mean; theorists must always attach an arbitrary event that was said to occur in a previous game, and they then justify the absence of evidence with some ridiculous excuse like "It simplifies things".

So you're still insulted that we don't believe the Triforce in Lanayru's vision isn't the Triforce? Our comparing the backstory of TP(Wars fought in Hyrule) to the backstory/first half of OoT, the backstory of ALttP, and TWW(wars fought in hyrule for the Triforce) especially when they entail the same events.

And btw, Vaati is in TP, but he's not shown or mentioned in order to simplify the story (the developers didn't want Vaati to be the main focus of the game).

You know that that's nothing like the argument here, that's completely different. If there was a 'Sorcerer of Winds' in Twilight Princess who appeared as a big black ball with one eye, then it would be comparable. One would also jump to the conclusion that, unless stated to the contrary, he's after the Light Force. There's a difference between what you're saying we're doing (forcing events to match up with previous games) and seeing events through previous games(what I'm doing, and I'm pretty sure everyone else is doing.)

Edited by CID Farwin, 21 May 2008 - 05:20 PM.


#207 LionHarted

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:16 PM

Lionharted, you accept retcons like the changing of the sage's races, the separation of ALttP's backstory from the actual game (pretty far-feched) and the inclusion of the palace of the four sword in a remake. Yet, it would be simpler to only retcon the idea that before the IW the triforce hadn't been touched. If we accept only this change, ten we can place the IW anytime, and not deal with a lot of other retcons (like the sage's races for example).


1) The sages' races have changed anyway, and sages' lines have been shown to transcend race in TWW.

2) The IW is ALttP's backstory. OoT is the IW. OoT has been separated from ALttP. You must first assume that OoT is not ALttP's backstory in order to even argue that ALttP's backstory has not been separated from the actual game, else you must argue a triple timeline.

3) The Palace of the Four Sword WAS included in a remake. A Four Sword game was later made that holds strong ties to ALttP. In fact, the only games the FS series has strong ties to are TWW and ALttP.

These are all facts.

In fact, the only non-fact being presented here is a retcon of the IW's placement.

#208 Raien

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 06:54 PM

You seem to be confused with terms, here. Main plot =/= Main focus of plot. Just because the focus of a plot is on one thing doesn't mean that the rest is somehow unimportant. Allow me to give an outside example of such an instance: Cloverfield. Rather than make a traditional cliche monster movie, J. J. Abrams instead decided to focus the plot on a group of friends who had a video camera and their experiences during the monster attack. Does that make the "main" plot of the monster attack any less main? no. but the main focus of the plot is different. The movie doesn't show exactly how everything went down, but based on previous monster movies, as well as what you see, one can pretty well piece it together.


If the Triforce was a well-recognised part of popular culture that everyone with a basic interest in film knew about (and parodied by the likes of Family Guy), I could agree with your comparison to Cloverfield. But it isn't; the large majority of people, especially newcomers to the series, might recognise the shape of the Triforce and connect that symbol with The Legend of Zelda, but they certainly aren't going to know how the Triforce works or understand the Triforce-splitting (especially in the context where no explanation for a split Triforce is provided). In order for the developers to assume that the player would understand these events, they would have to assume that the player had also played OoT, which becomes less and less reasonable as time goes by. The game is ten years old now; it's going to earn "retro" status soon if it hasn't already.

And so for the people who haven't played OoT, they are left with plot holes, and this point in general contradicts a stated developer philosophy to make the individual storylines comprehensible for everyone. As the final boss, people are going to want to know where Ganondorf came from, and not explaining that properly is going to leave that part of Zelda's audience disappointed, which is not at all in the developers' best interests if they want to see more sales of future Zelda titles. Even Metal Gear Solid 4 is going to have in-game flashbacks to explain to new players what occurred in the previous three games, because the developers realise that not everyone who wants to play it will have owned a PS1 or PS2. I never played the NES Metal Gear games when I bought the Gamecube remake of MGS1, so thank god there was a section in the game that explained those stories to me.

Fans aren't going to get upset if the Triforce is explained in yet another game, and that begs the question as to why Nintendo was apparently so ambiguous about it. Since it contradicts the basic principles of good storytelling, I firmly believe that these old conventions of the timeline have been dropped entirely. What the game says is what happens; simple as that.

*looks around* He's not here, and is by no means representative of the rest of us, so you can simmer down.



I would agree normally, but given the current subject of discussion surrounding TP, I think the comparison is valid. Theorists look at the fact that TP is a sequel to OoT, but they ignore the fact that the game has no active narrative connections to OoT. It is an example of the timeline placement being used to determine the story, and that's in turn being used as a justification for rampant speculation. The fact is that Aonuma's Nintendo Dream interview still is the only definite piece of evidence connecting OoT to TP.

Edited by Raian, 21 May 2008 - 10:13 PM.


#209 NM87

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 08:21 PM

The Great Cataclysm specifically refers to evil possessing the Triforce. That's a fact.


That is true. As Showsni said, Ganondorf?s statement at the end of TP is eerily similar to the Great Cataclysm. The Great Cataclysm might not have started in TP, but Ganondorf could certainly be forseeing it.

And no. Just no. You cannot seriously be suggesting that Zelda has enough power to split THE ENTIRETY OF REALITY into two. That's Full Triforce-level power.


Zelda sent Link back with the Ocarina. That she was not supposed to do. WW tells us the Hero of Time was given the ToC to protect, but it departed from him when he "left through the flows of time". Why would the goddesses give him a piece to protect and then send him back in time to break it? Zelda OOT was the cause for all of this.

Of course it's assumed based on previous games! Nintendo focused attention away from Ganon/Triforce in order to focus on the main plot of the game, which wasn't the Triforce or Ganon. Le Gasp! Isn't that what everyone's asking for? The main plot is the whole Twili duality stuff. Maybe, just maybe, Nintendo actually tried to give us some credit for once? Maybe they didn't cover the whole semantics of the "power of the Gods" because they gave us enough credit to be able to figure out that it's the Triforce? But no, that's not what's happened. Instead we get these theories of how it must not be the Triforce because they didn't say it was! Even though it is the Triforce in everything but name. This is why they have to go spell stuff out for us, because if they don't this happens.


The simple fact that they included Ganon and a reference of the Triforce proves they had no intention of making a completely new story. Once you put Ganon and/or the Triforce in a game...it becomes the main focus/plot. No matter how much you want to argue it is not. Look at FSA - Ganon becomes the main focus as soon as his name is mentioned. TP - We learn it was all Ganondorf?s fault, and Zant looses his impact on the player. OOX - Its not just about saving the lands, its about stopping Ganon. Even in AOL, the player knows he must complete the quest or Ganon is revived.

Edited by NM87, 21 May 2008 - 08:30 PM.


#210 Jumbie

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Posted 21 May 2008 - 09:22 PM

My interpretation is more like ?The magic flows out (of the boss) through the temples.?

That'd be fair enough, but no one thinks of any bosses when Rauru says the line in question. We think of the Sacred Realm because that's what his previous lines were about, and of the temples because they're obviously the topic.

The bosses don? come from the SR, Ganondorf sends them there.

Huh, where do you get that from?!

The Chamber of Sages is located in the Temple of Light, which is the Temple of Time.

What the...?! Well, I'm tired of telling you you're wrong, so I'll just ask you to bring on game quotes!

Furthermore, that new translation that seems to imply Zelda actually passed the ToW to Midna makes it seem more likely to me that it's the real Triforce.

I'm fairly sure this "power" refers to Zelda's life force, not the ToW.

And isn't being awarded the power of the goddesses the same as being given a Triforce piece? Honestly.

Definitely. I could as well have written "given" or "granted". It's just that "awarded" sounded better to me.

I see no difference between "divine prank" and "prank of the gods".

Oh, I was still a little unexperienced. The Japanese wording of "prank of the gods" may also be translated as "divine prank".

TP is one hundred years after the time of OOT, what?s so improbable about this? Its not like the Goddesses are going o prank everyone right after disaster in OOT was avoided. They waited for a time when their chosen one, Ganondorf, was ready to receive his power.

Keep in mind that the "divine prank" happened a short time after OoT's child ending, not hundred years later.

I'm aware. Though it is worth noting that in Japanese mythology and fantasy, bloodlines aren't exactly genetic, and are more spiritual in interpretation. There are many stories involving magical, Sage-like figures, such as Abe no Seimei, who pass on their spiritual bloodline without actually having blood descendants. The Abe no Seimei example, explicitly stated to have no children whatsoever, but canonically has a son and grandson that wield his power.

And Abe no Seimei is as "Sage" as you can get in real life mythology.

That's very good to know! ..You could've told us a couple of years earlier ;)




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