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IW Ganon =/= ALttP Ganon?


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#151 NM87

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 12:48 AM

Wrong wrong WRONG! Aghanim very much so kills the maidens in ALttP. They are sacrificed, according to the Japanese.


Which is why they are still alive during the game and seen at the end amongst the living.

As I recall, both instances have him sealed within the Sacred Realm. OoT especially doesn't just shove Ganon in the Sacred Realm and lock the door, they seal him within. The Sacred Realm was sealed centuries earlier by the builders of the ToT.


In OOT, Ganonorf uses Link to enter the SR via the well known Temple of Time (who’s location is not lost) and the returns to take over Hyrule, although in the end the seven sages send Ganondorf into the “void of the Sacred Realm”, and then he is sealed. In ALTTP, Ganondorf opens an entrance to the SR, and then cannot figure out how to return, which causes “evil power” to flow forth from the realm into Hyrule, making the King command the wise men/sages to seal off the entrance to the SR Ganondorf had found.

The differences here are that OOT Ganondorf is sent to the SR and then sealed, while the wise men merely close off the entrance ALTTP Ganondorf went through. Also, the location of the entrance is said to be lost during the time of ALTTP, but during the time of OOT, it seems to be known.

So exactly which sages are they? there's only seven I know of during ALttP/OoT/ALttP remake. And I guess the ALttP remake's deliberate change of 'wise man' to 'sage' was meaningless too, huh?(hint: the Japanese word is the same)


Totally separate wise men/sages who were the existing ones at the time of the IW, however many years after TP.

And anyway, all that those prove is that (at the current time) ALttP can't go after either, not that OoT isn't the IW.


ALTTP cannot follow after TP because…?

Edited by NM87, 15 May 2008 - 12:51 AM.


#152 CID Farwin

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 01:51 AM

Which is why they are still alive during the game and seen at the end amongst the living.

And the Master Sword sleeps...FOREVER!

Take it up with Nintendo; they were sacrificed.

In OOT, Ganonorf uses Link to enter the SR via the well known Temple of Time (who’s location is not lost) and the returns to take over Hyrule, although in the end the seven sages send Ganondorf into the “void of the Sacred Realm”, and then he is sealed. In ALTTP, Ganondorf opens an entrance to the SR, and then cannot figure out how to return, which causes “evil power” to flow forth from the realm into Hyrule, making the King command the wise men/sages to seal off the entrance to the SR Ganondorf had found.

The differences here are that OOT Ganondorf is sent to the SR and then sealed, while the wise men merely close off the entrance ALTTP Ganondorf went through. Also, the location of the entrance is said to be lost during the time of ALTTP, but during the time of OOT, it seems to be known.

1. The location of the ToT is well known, but what about it's being the entrance to the Sacred Realm, or how to access the Sacred Realm, for that matter? I wouldn't exactly call the entrance 'well known;' It's behind a giant stone door, for Pete's sake.
2. How exactly does the seal war happen, then, if the sages just sealed off the entrance to the Sacred Realm with Ganon inside?

Totally separate wise men/sages who were the existing ones at the time of the IW, however many years after TP.

regardless of how many OoT backstory/game elements are almost exactly like IW elements?

ALTTP cannot follow after TP because…?

At the moment? Wars must be fought over the Triforce(again,) Ganondorf has to come back to life somehow, during those wars he nabs the Triforce (again,) gets sealed (I assume by those spectral sages, right?), and those spectral sages must somehow have descendants. At the moment too much must be assumed to happen. TP by no means leads into ALttP(or the IW, with the state of the Triforce unknown.) And why should the IW not be the game designed to be it? Because it fits your theory better?

Edited by CID Farwin, 15 May 2008 - 01:52 AM.


#153 Jumbie

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 02:41 AM

Wrong wrong WRONG! Aghanim very much so kills the maidens in ALttP. They are sacrificed, according to the Japanese.

Well, I don't think sacrificing necessarily involves death. In ALttP's case it may mean Agahnim sacrificed the maidens' presence in the light world (which appears as a real sacrifice to the Hyrulians). If the maidens were mere ghosts, I'm not sure if Link could still borrow their powers to invade Ganon's Tower.

"Using the most of their powers, the Sages and Knights threw open a heroic battle with the evil one.

Important: The Japanese manual says that the battle was waged with 悪しき者 ("ashikimono") = bad person. It might be said that this term refers to only Ganon."

We clearly see an army fighting the Knights in the artwork, but Ganon seemingly was there in some form.

See, some people (not saying you HoL, but some people) use that as "ZOMG A DIFFERENCE," (the whole knights thing) but with OoT, one knight against a bad person, works. There is no plural in Japanese. ;)

Oh, that's actually a myth, in fact there are several ways in Japanese to form plural, but they're used less frequently.
A Kanji can be written twice or followed by 々 to repeat it, e.g. 神々(kamigami).
Also there are a words like "group", "amount", which can render a word plural.
And then there is 達, the inherent meaning of which is "plural".

So, the plural of 者 (person) would be 者達 (people) which occurs regularly, meaning that 者 really only implies one individual.

In OOT, Ganonorf uses Link to enter the SR via the well known Temple of Time (who’s location is not lost)

As I said before, in OoT the location of the SR doesn't seem to be known to anyone but the royal family (including the Sheikahs) and an old man in town. Even the Deku Tree only knows it is "somewhere in Hyrule".
The Hylian royal family knowing about it would in ALttP's backstory have no relevance because they certainly weren't the ones searching for the SR anyway.

the seven sages send Ganondorf into the “void of the Sacred Realm”

The original wording of this is actually "to the far end of the Dark World".

In ALTTP, Ganondorf opens an entrance to the SR, and then cannot figure out how to return

Yeah, that's from the mouth of a maiden, who all cut the Seal War account in pieces and present them out of context.

Being unable to figure out how to return to the light world has always sounded to me like being unable to break the sages' seal. And frankly, any other interpretation makes no sense at all. If Ganondorf enters the SR, he also can return the same way. Which he certainly did, what with the knights battling him and all. If his evil power can flow out, why should he himself not!

which causes “evil power” to flow forth from the realm into Hyrule

Note that this same thing happens in OoT, Ganondorf's evil power flows from the Dark World via the temples into Hyrule.

The differences here are that OOT Ganondorf is sent to the SR and then sealed, while the wise men merely close off the entrance ALTTP Ganondorf went through.

In OoT there's mention of Ganondorf closing the door to the SR and the sages asking the Goddesses to open it so they can get Ganon in.

#154 Raien

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 07:21 AM

Jumbie, if Ganon knew where to find his way out of the Dark World, then why was he forced to create his own portal after Agahnim broke the Sages' Seal? It was in the window of time when Ganon was trapped in the Dark World that Link was able to rescue the maidens and defeat Ganon.

I think the maiden's words were pretty clear; she is explaining why Ganon has not yet returned to Hyrule after the Sages' seal was broken, which in turn tells us that Ganon could not have directly participated in the IW.

Edited by Raian, 15 May 2008 - 07:22 AM.


#155 NM87

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 12:24 PM

And the Master Sword sleeps...FOREVER!

Take it up with Nintendo; they were sacrificed.


This doesn’t have anything to do with…anything.

1. The location of the ToT is well known, but what about it's being the entrance to the Sacred Realm, or how to access the Sacred Realm, for that matter? I wouldn't exactly call the entrance 'well known;' It's behind a giant stone door, for Pete's sake.


The Temple of Time is known as the entrance, Princess Zelda, a mere child knows this:

That's right... The Temple of Time is the entrance through which you can enter the Sacred Realm from our world.

I was so young...I could not comprehend the consequences of trying to control the Sacred Realm.


The legend is also known to the townsfolk, which means the information is not completely lost as it was during the time of ALTTP:

Legends say that the Temple of Time is the entrance to the Sacred Realm...

2. How exactly does the seal war happen, then, if the sages just sealed off the entrance to the Sacred Realm with Ganon inside?


How does that prevent the war from happening? Ganon’s minions still fight with the Knights, and Ganon doesn’t necessarily need to be there in person for a war to be waged.

regardless of how many OoT backstory/game elements are almost exactly like IW elements?


Regardless of how many OOT back-story/game elements are so radically different from the IW elements?

At the moment? Wars must be fought over the Triforce(again,) Ganondorf has to come back to life somehow, during those wars he nabs the Triforce (again,) gets sealed (I assume by those spectral sages, right?), and those spectral sages must somehow have descendants. At the moment too much must be assumed to happen. TP by no means leads into ALttP(or the IW, with the state of the Triforce unknown.) And why should the IW not be the game designed to be it? Because it fits your theory better?


The Triforce was never mentioned in TP, nor was the Sacred Realm ever disturbed. TP Ganondorf doesn’t need to have any relation to ALTTP Ganondorf. Whether or not the TP sages have descendents is irrelevant, since its a well known fact that the seven sages/wise ones will always have descendents. TP doesn’t “lead into” the IW, it serves as a resolve to the plot of OOT, which has caused so much debate, while leaving things as nothing had happened.

Now I am going to once and for all stab this “OOT intended to be the IW” age-old argument. OOT’s script was written at a time where Miyamoto and his crew didn’t care about the story. It was pre-WW an before mending of the timeline had begun by the developers. If the OOT developers intended for OOT to be the IW, then why make it so radically different? They knew the story they were dealing with, but had chosen to change so many details, intentionally. To put it simply, these were the intentions ten years ago, during a time no one cared. No one had any idea about WW, or about TP and FSA. I’ll say it again, I makes more sense to ret-con OOT away from the IW and have I as a separate event in another reality where the original story holds true.

#156 NM87

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 12:35 PM

As I said before, in OoT the location of the SR doesn't seem to be known to anyone but the royal family (including the Sheikahs) and an old man in town. Even the Deku Tree only knows it is "somewhere in Hyrule".


No, the Temple of Time is well known as the entrance, at least in rumor/legend. The lady in the lavender dress tells Link that people say it is the entrance, which implies most people generally accept it as possible because of this well known legend. In ALTTP, that knowledge was completely lost, and no one knows.

The original wording of this is actually "to the far end of the Dark World".


Irrelevant.

Being unable to figure out how to return to the light world has always sounded to me like being unable to break the sages' seal. And frankly, any other interpretation makes no sense at all. If Ganondorf enters the SR, he also can return the same way. Which he certainly did, what with the knights battling him and all. If his evil power can flow out, why should he himself not!


Ganon entered the SR in which he could not figure out how to get out, not that the sages sealed the realm and then he entered and couldn’t figure to how to get past that. The sages seal the SR when the evil power flowed from it, not as soon as Ganondorf entered, which means there was some time he was just trapped there. Your description butchers what actually had happened.

Note that this same thing happens in OoT, Ganondorf's evil power flows from the Dark World via the temples into Hyrule.


So now the temples are passageways to and from the SR? “Molding of the evidence”.

In OoT there's mention of Ganondorf closing the door to the SR and the sages asking the Goddesses to open it so they can get Ganon in.


Heh, well that just helps my point. The Goddesses never helped the wise men, and the wise men weren’t trying to “lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm”. He was already there and they just totally sealed the exit.

#157 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 04:49 PM

The Maidens WERE Sacrificed, and they took crystal forms on the other side that effectively put them out of commission. The wording used seems to imply that they were killed, and their souls sealed up so that new Sages couldn't take their place. Link then saves them, borrows their power, and uses the Triforce to revive them just as he did the King of Hyrule.

#158 Jumbie

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 04:52 PM

Jumbie, if Ganon knew where to find his way out of the Dark World, then why was he forced to create his own portal after Agahnim broke the Sages' Seal?

Breaking the seal = creating a portal. It's one single act.
The reason why you need the Magical Mirror to escape the Dark World is the sages' seal, not people being too stupid to find the exit.
Because guess what, otherwise there wouldn't have been any need for the seal in the first place! <_<

If the OOT developers intended for OOT to be the IW, then why make it so radically different? They knew the story they were dealing with, but had chosen to change so many details, intentionally.

They only seem "so radically different" to those who put their heart and soul into nit-picking the details to the point of puking...
It's the fans who have chosen to be so immaturely stubborn about everything. Exercise some tolerance with the text, for heck's sake.

I’ll say it again, I makes more sense to ret-con OOT away from the IW and have I as a separate event in another reality where the original story holds true.

And why not just retcon ALttP away from TP and TWW, and the whole lot of 2D games along with it? That's what I see being done.

The original wording of this is actually "to the far end of the Dark World".

Irrelevant.

Oh, so you view the Dark World's emergence during OoT as irrelevant to ALttP's backstory, although the latter says the Dark World only came to be after Ganon entered the Sacred Realm?

Ganon entered the SR in which he could not figure out how to get out, not that the sages sealed the realm and then he entered and couldn’t figure to how to get past that. The sages seal the SR when the evil power flowed from it, not as soon as Ganondorf entered, which means there was some time he was just trapped there. Your description butchers what actually had happened.

Oh god, it is a *legend*! A legend that was meant to summarize OoT's events, without remembering anything about the seven years or something.

So now the temples are passageways to and from the SR? “Molding of the evidence”.

Not "now" but rather since 1998 they have been, when OoT stated it as fact. Ever noticed how the blue light after a boss fight takes Link straight to the Chamber of Sages?
And here you got it in black and white:

奴の魔力は 神殿を通して流れ出し、わずか七年で ハイラル全土を 魔物の国と 変えてしもうた…
His magic, flowing out through the temples, transformed in seven short years the entirety of Hyrule into a country of monsters.


The Goddesses never helped the wise men, and the wise men weren’t trying to “lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm”. He was already there and they just totally sealed the exit.

Says who? You're just assuming this because ALttP doesn't mention every little detail.

The Maidens WERE Sacrificed, and they took crystal forms on the other side that effectively put them out of commission. The wording used seems to imply that they were killed, and their souls sealed up so that new Sages couldn't take their place. Link then saves them, borrows their power, and uses the Triforce to revive them just as he did the King of Hyrule.

Well, I don't think sacrificing necessarily involves death. In ALttP's case it may mean Agahnim sacrificed the maidens' presence in the light world (which appears as a real sacrifice to the Hyrulians). If the maidens were mere ghosts, I'm not sure if Link could still borrow their powers to invade Ganon's Tower.

Edited by Jumbie, 15 May 2008 - 04:57 PM.


#159 Raien

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 05:13 PM

Breaking the seal = creating a portal. It's one single act.
The reason why you need the Magical Mirror to escape the Dark World is the sages' seal, not people being too stupid to find the exit.


This is assuming that there is an exit from the Dark World in ALTTP; the Maiden says that Ganon could not find his way out of the Dark World, not that there actually was a way out from the Dark World.

Anyway, I can see where you're coming from but I still have some problems with this theory.

1) Why do the Maidens say the Sages' seal has been broken, if it is still in the process of breaking?

2) It is said that Agahnim breaking the Sages' Seal opened up the portal from the Light World to the Dark World, but it is also said that the constructing portal from the Dark World is being opened by Ganon. How can this be, if the dissolving of the Sages' Seal is responsible for the portal?

Then, using we seven maidens who inherit the power of the Seven Sages as the key, he broke the seal, and furthermore, he intends to open a passage of greater power near the castle. However, that passage has not yet completely opened.


3) If Ganon did know how to return to the Light World (but simply did not have the means to do so), then why did the Maiden say that he didn't know how to return to the Light World? Why use those words when the meaning was entirely different?

Because guess what, otherwise there wouldn't have been any need for the seal in the first place! <_<


The seal would have been needed to prevent the invasion of Hyrule by the Tribe of Evil, with or without their leader Ganon at their helm.

Edited by Raian, 15 May 2008 - 05:16 PM.


#160 Jumbie

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 06:20 PM

This is assuming that there is an exit from the Dark World in ALTTP; the Maiden says that Ganon could not find his way out of the Dark World, not that there actually was a way out from the Dark World.

OoT never implies that the Sacred Realm was a place of no return. And I hope you don't assume Ganon forgot to wish for an exit door when he changed the SR into the Dark World. It's his very own realm of demons, after all.
The obvious explanation for why he could not exit the DW is the sages' seal.

1) Why do the Maidens say the Sages' seal has been broken, if it is still in the process of breaking?

The button for the elevator has been pushed, now the door still needs to open. All that one can do after pushing is wait a while.

2) It is said that Agahnim breaking the Sages' Seal opened up the portal from the Light World to the Dark World, but it is also said that the constructing portal from the Dark World is being opened by Ganon. How can this be, if the dissolving of the Sages' Seal is responsible for the portal?

This is confusing, but with Agahnim and Ganon being the same person, it's likely that he has to open the portal from both sides of the seal.

3) If Ganon did know how to return to the Light World (but simply did not have the means to do so), then why did the Maiden say that he didn't know how to return to the Light World? Why use those words when the meaning was entirely different?

Probably he only figured out how to return after centuries, otherwise he would've tried the Agahnim trick on earlier descendants of the sages, wouldn't he?

The seal would have been needed to prevent the invasion of Hyrule by the Tribe of Evil, with or without their leader Ganon at their helm.

So Ganon's demon tribe could exit the Dark World no problem, but the big man himself could not? How very plausible.
[sarc]Or did Ganon really become a pig at that point and was then just too fat to fit through the exit door again?[/sarc]

#161 Raien

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 07:39 PM

Jumbie, I do think your theory is more straightforward and logical than the one I proposed. But I'm still uncomfortable about how it fits with the choice of words used in the game script. Perhaps it is a translation issue, but for the moment I'm keeping my mind open on this.

#162 NM87

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 10:26 PM

Oh, so you view the Dark World's emergence during OoT as irrelevant to ALttP's backstory, although the latter says the Dark World only came to be after Ganon entered the Sacred Realm?


Its irrelevant where it he is sealed. If the common word for “realm of evil” is “Dark World”, then it isn’t so crazy to think that there became two “Dark Worlds” in two separate realities. So your point still is moot.

Oh god, it is a *legend*! A legend that was meant to summarize OoT's events, without remembering anything about the seven years or something.


Listen to me now, I am not “nit-picking” all the minor differences, I could sit here and do that all day long. The inconsistencies I deal with are (1) The state of Ganon/dorf, (2) What the ancient ones did to seal him, and (3) Who the ancient ones were and what the knowledge of the people at the time. I could care less about “the knights waging war against Ganon”, since I really don’t care if there was or wasn’t. These major differences are what count.

His magic, flowing out through the temples, transformed in seven short years the entirety of Hyrule into a country of monsters.


This translation is unknown to me. Never-the-less, it is irrelevant to the topic at hand because it merely says that his magic flowed from the temple, not from the Sacred Realm. We all know that Ganon’s monsters were his “magic” and therefore after Ganon had sent them to the temples they began producing dark magic. It doesn’t say anything about it coming from the Sacred Realm. Of course, it is only possible for him to place his magic factories around Hyrule if he wasn’t in the SR not knowing how to escape. This is another reason we separate OOT from the IW. Ganondorf had taken over Hyrule, but in the IW he does not.

They only seem "so radically different" to those who put their heart and soul into nit-picking the details to the point of puking…


And why not just retcon ALttP away from TP and TWW, and the whole lot of 2D games along with it? That's what I see being done.


This is why I stopped with this silly timeline debate in the first place. Those who argue that the OOT is the IW, like Lex, have these outlandish theories that have everything falling into place by grasping at the tiniest pieces of would-be evidence that appear to hold things together like rope around a two ton pile of bricks. While making the IW a separate event from OOT in another real…never mind, its never going to sink in is it. Your theory is shot from the start, since you state that WW only happens if “ALTTP fails”, which is the biggest assumption of them all, although I know why you have reason to argue that.

Link then saves them, borrows their power, and uses the Triforce to revive them just as he did the King of Hyrule.


And now we are back to assuming things again, or is there yet another magic translation that you want to bring to my attention.

#163 Jumbie

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 11:56 PM

Listen to me now, I am not “nit-picking” all the minor differences, I could sit here and do that all day long. The inconsistencies I deal with are (1) The state of Ganon/dorf, (2) What the ancient ones did to seal him, and (3) Who the ancient ones were and what the knowledge of the people at the time. I could care less about “the knights waging war against Ganon”, since I really don’t care if there was or wasn’t. These major differences are what count.

See, in my opinion those you just named are the minor ones. The reconcilable ones.

His magic, flowing out through the temples, transformed in seven short years the entirety of Hyrule into a country of monsters.

This translation is unknown to me.

Yes, I had never translated it before today, but I brought it up because its NoA version says basically the same!

Never-the-less, it is irrelevant to the topic at hand because it merely says that his magic flowed from the temple, not from the Sacred Realm.

That's not true. Grammar proves you wrong:
"Flowing out" means that the magic came from inside somewhere (now this might be either the temples or the SR).
"Through" means that the magic passed the temples, that the temples were just a connection between Hyrule and where the magic originated.
With both expressions occurring in the same sentence, your interpretation simply cannot work.
(Btw, one can also translate the Japanese word for "through" as "via", in case that changes anything to you.)

And since we are told the tainted SR is brimming with evil, the logical thing to accept is that it flowed out not through the Master Sword portal, but through the five temples of Hyrule. What do you think the temples are good for anyway? After all, they're also the places where new sages are supposed to receive their awakening calls from the SR.
Not to mention that you didn't even react on my point that Link in each temple enters a portal to the SR.

Of course, it is only possible for him to place his magic factories around Hyrule if he wasn’t in the SR not knowing how to escape. This is another reason we separate OOT from the IW.

And I'm reconciling exactly that, based on the quotes.

This is why I stopped with this silly timeline debate in the first place. Those who argue that the OOT is the IW, like Lex, have these outlandish theories that have everything falling into place by grasping at the tiniest pieces of would-be evidence that appear to hold things together like rope around a two ton pile of bricks. While making the IW a separate event from OOT in another real…never mind, its never going to sink in is it. Your theory is shot from the start, since you state that WW only happens if “ALTTP fails”, which is the biggest assumption of them all, although I know why you have reason to argue that.

What I gather is that you're pissed off about our ways of theorising, but well, what to answer there? The fact that we can't agree with your way of theorising is one of the reasons this forum is alive, so...
And btw, currently I don't think ALttP happens after OoT's adult ending, but rather after an OoT where Link never appeared (or something similar). It's all up in the air, my only constant is that I'm arguing to put ALttP+FSA outside the TP or TWW timelines.

Link then saves them, borrows their power, and uses the Triforce to revive them just as he did the King of Hyrule.

And now we are back to assuming things again, or is there yet another magic translation that you want to bring to my attention.

Make sure you get right whom you're talking to. This sentence is from MPS, whereas I have actually been defending your interpretation of "sacrificing the maidens" all along.

And my translations appear magically then when we're dealing with brand-new ones. They can be aces up my sleeve, but they can just as well be disastrous to my own theories - needless to say. My purpose is to relay the truth, as most people here can see.

Edited by Jumbie, 15 May 2008 - 11:57 PM.


#164 Ize

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 03:58 AM

The next game will probably join TP and ALttP. And considering it's absurd for ALttP to come after the flood and to be completely sepparated from it's own backstory, OoT can no longer be the IW, wether we consider the 2D games an independent timeline or not.

So we would have:


OoT(child)---TP and ALttP/FSA---LoZ

Now, if we just join those two by the ends, ther is absolutely no conflict whatsoever.

OoT(child)---TP---ALttP/FSA---LoZ

What are the inconsistencies there? One Ganon dies, a new one is born. We accept this for Link and Zelda in between games yet we must know or see everytime it happens to Ganon?

Edited by Ize, 16 May 2008 - 04:06 AM.


#165 NM87

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 09:02 AM

That's not true. Grammar proves you wrong:
"Flowing out" means that the magic came from inside somewhere (now this might be either the temples or the SR).
"Through" means that the magic passed the temples, that the temples were just a connection between Hyrule and where the magic originated.
With both expressions occurring in the same sentence, your interpretation simply cannot work.
(Btw, one can also translate the Japanese word for "through" as "via", in case that changes anything to you.)

And since we are told the tainted SR is brimming with evil, the logical thing to accept is that it flowed out not through the Master Sword portal, but through the five temples of Hyrule. What do you think the temples are good for anyway? After all, they're also the places where new sages are supposed to receive their awakening calls from the SR.
Not to mention that you didn't even react on my point that Link in each temple enters a portal to the SR.


Since when does “grammar” know what Zelda games are trying to convey? I'm not getting into a debate of semantics but your point is still moot about this. "Flowing out" simply means it came out of the temple and "through" means it left the boss or his lair by way of the temple. You act as if the temple’s are evil, but they are not. They are only evil because of the boss, and once removed there s no medium for evil to “flow out through”. In no way does grammar specify “through” that it must be from another realm, because people don’t normally use the word to describe things coming from another realm since this is a fantasy.

By the logic in your second point, even after Link defeats the boss, shouldn't evil still "flow out through"? Since is not really the boss who is making evil the boss doesn't even matter, aside from keeping the sages from awakening. Then after that, they all go to the Temple of Light, not their respective temples. Besides:

"Ganondorf and his minions are using the Spirit Temple as a hideout." -Naboorou

They just used the temples as places to stay while they prevented the sages from awakening.

As for the part about Link returning to the Temple of Light after each dungeon, its a game-play mechanic. Would you rather, after completing the dungeon, walk all the way back to the Temple of Time to hear what the sages have to say? Also, Link has warped out of temples and dungeons in all his games, is not far fetched to say that warp point is simple magic used to transport him back to the Temple of Time.

Of course, it is only possible for him to place his magic factories around Hyrule if he wasn’t in the SR not knowing how to escape. This is another reason we separate OOT from the IW.

And I'm reconciling exactly that, based on the quotes.


Ganondorf was in Hyrule. His bosses were the means of evil. The temples were hotels they stayed in while defiling the sacred grounds of each of them.

What I gather is that you're pissed off about our ways of theorising, but well, what to answer there? The fact that we can't agree with your way of theorising is one of the reasons this forum is alive, so...
And btw, currently I don't think ALttP happens after OoT's adult ending, but rather after an OoT where Link never appeared (or something similar). It's all up in the air, my only constant is that I'm arguing to put ALttP+FSA outside the TP or TWW timelines.


Are you saying I don't like you way of theorizing? In reality, I like the "idea" that if ALTTP fails, then WW ensues, but is just not supported. Its fine by me, the only point in your explanation where you require and open mind is that point, I believe.

Make sure you get right whom you're talking to. This sentence is from MPS, whereas I have actually been defending your interpretation of "sacrificing the maidens" all along.

And my translations appear magically then when we're dealing with brand-new ones. They can be aces up my sleeve, but they can just as well be disastrous to my own theories - needless to say. My purpose is to relay the truth, as most people here can see.


If you know that you didn't say that...then it isn't directed toward you. I was saying that because everyone here seems to have translations I haven't gotten to yet, so, please...

#166 NM87

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 09:05 AM

The next game will probably join TP and ALttP. And considering it's absurd for ALttP to come after the flood and to be completely sepparated from it's own backstory, OoT can no longer be the IW, wether we consider the 2D games an independent timeline or not.

So we would have:


OoT(child)---TP and ALttP/FSA---LoZ

Now, if we just join those two by the ends, ther is absolutely no conflict whatsoever.

OoT(child)---TP---ALttP/FSA---LoZ

What are the inconsistencies there? One Ganon dies, a new one is born. We accept this for Link and Zelda in between games yet we must know or see everytime it happens to Ganon?

That is what I don't understand. The theory you stated is the most common sense theory. The Master Sword's resting place in TP should be the only thing people need to see to know its going to lead into ALTTP.

#167 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 04:13 PM

If the maidens were mere ghosts, I'm not sure if Link could still borrow their powers to invade Ganon's Tower.


What about the TWW Sages? Their predecessors still wielded their powers.

And now we are back to assuming things again, or is there yet another magic translation that you want to bring to my attention.


The Japanese word translated into "Sacrificed" denotes specifically to living beings who's lives are sacrificed, as opposed to sacrificing something like food or prayer beads or something. It's a fact that Link saves the Maidens and uses their power, and it's also a fact that he used the Triforce to bring the King of Hyrule back to life. It's pretty easy to logically deduce from there that the Maidens were magically killed, had their souls sealed, and then revived by Link.

#168 Raien

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 04:16 PM

In my opinion, the Maidens were said to be sacrificed because it added a lot of drama to the first half of the game (especially when we see Zelda herself sacrificed *SHOCK*). When Link entered the Dark World and it was revealed the Maidens were not in fact dead, but sealed inside crystals, then it allowed Link to continue his quest by rescuing the Maidens.

Is that not plausible?

#169 Jumbie

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 07:24 PM

OoT(child)---TP---ALttP/FSA---LoZ

What are the inconsistencies there?

The huge problem is that currently we don't have a game where a new Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm, acquires the Triforce, and is sealed by the Seven Sages - except for OoT! Until another game with such a storyline is made (which I doubt will happen, with this storyline being overused already), I can't accept to put anything between OoT and ALttP.

The second problem is of course that ALttP describes events that occurred in a similar way around the era of OoT, so that's the other side of the mandatory connection that I refuse to sacrifice.

One Ganon dies, a new one is born. We accept this for Link and Zelda in between games yet we must know or see everytime it happens to Ganon?

We don't need to hear that Ganondorf was reborn, but we need to see him being sealed in the Sacred Realm another time.

Since when does “grammar” know what Zelda games are trying to convey?

Grammar tells us what we are to understand from a sentence. As simple as that. You're ignoring what the line really says.

"Flowing out" simply means it came out of the temple and "through" means it left the boss or his lair by way of the temple.

Sure, the magic could flow through the temple and at the same time out of it. But such a thing cannot possibly be expressed by the one sentence we are dealing with.

Let's insert in the following line our respective ideas of where the magic originated:
The magic flows out (of the SR) through the temples. [my interpretation]
The magic flows out (of the temples) through the temples. [your interpretation]

Now which one is the redundant and which one the obvious one?

You act as if the temple’s are evil, but they are not. They are only evil because of the boss, and once removed there s no medium for evil to “flow out through”.

I didn't imply that. I said that the temples are at multiple times shown to have a connection to the Sacred Realm/Dark World.

In no way does grammar specify “through” that it must be from another realm, because people don’t normally use the word to describe things coming from another realm since this is a fantasy.

That's not the problem. If we replace it with more common concepts, it's the same issue:
"The water flows out (of the cave) through the crack." -- works.
"The water flows out (of the crack) through the crack." -- redundant.

By the logic in your second point, even after Link defeats the boss, shouldn't evil still "flow out through"? Since is not really the boss who is making evil the boss doesn't even matter, aside from keeping the sages from awakening. Then after that, they all go to the Temple of Light, not their respective temples.

The role of the bosses is to taint the temples and surroundings. The magic flowing out of the Dark World is what froze Zora's Domain, spread the monsters in Kokiri Forest, etc. So, the bosses are the magic that flowed out of the Dark World (which is called "makai", world of demons, for a reason).

No, the evil logically stops flowing out once the respective sage, the guardian of the temple, is awakened. The game suggests that after a boss is removed, the temple is cleansed.
And even if new monsters kept flowing out after clearing a temple, they would very soon be sealed away with Ganon in the Dark World at the end of the game anyway.

"Ganondorf and his minions are using the Spirit Temple as a hideout." -Naboorou

They just used the temples as places to stay while they prevented the sages from awakening.

I've already made my point. But btw, this line refers to Koume and Kotake, and the Japanese version calls the witches "Ganondorf's gang" (in a different quote from this one).

As for the part about Link returning to the Temple of Light after each dungeon, its a game-play mechanic. Would you rather, after completing the dungeon, walk all the way back to the Temple of Time to hear what the sages have to say? Also, Link has warped out of temples and dungeons in all his games, is not far fetched to say that warp point is simple magic used to transport him back to the Temple of Time.

After all non-temple dungeons, Link is sent straight outside. Only in the OoT temples, he is sent to the Chamber of Sages. We aren't shown Link in the ToT.
And besides, if Link attempted to enter the Chamber of Sages from the ToT, all he would achieve is going back to the past...

Ganondorf was in Hyrule. His bosses were the means of evil. The temples were hotels they stayed in while defiling the sacred grounds of each of them.

Correct. And what's the problem..?

Are you saying I don't like you way of theorizing? In reality, I like the "idea" that if ALTTP fails, then WW ensues, but is just not supported. Its fine by me, the only point in your explanation where you require and open mind is that point, I believe.

We don't require any support for this, other than the fact that the games' events fit much better if we open a third timeline.

In the beginning, many fans didn't "allow" the developers to establish a split timeline. People tried everything to twist their statements, just to somehow maintain a single timeline. That way people could claim, "The devs didn't confirm the split", and say that as long as they didn't, there would be no split timeline.

Right now, most theorists say because a gaiden timeline hasn't been confirmed by the devs, there is none. Can you see why I don't care about that?

If you know that you didn't say that...then it isn't directed toward you. I was saying that because everyone here seems to have translations I haven't gotten to yet, so, please...

I felt addressed because in the last couple of days I've been the only one to post translations. We have other translators here, but they don't usually bring up new passages in the course of a debate like I did.
You don't have to be afraid of missing something, it either gets posted in my thread, or when I bring it up just like that, it's brand-new to everyone.

What about the TWW Sages? Their predecessors still wielded their powers.

I only remember they passed on their powers to their successors (something that likely only happens when the sage of the previous generation dies).
But Link is not meant to become a sage, so it should be a little different.

The Japanese word translated into "Sacrificed" denotes specifically to living beings who's lives are sacrificed, as opposed to sacrificing something like food or prayer beads or something.

In my opinion, the Maidens were said to be sacrificed because it added a lot of drama to the first half of the game (especially when we see Zelda herself sacrificed *SHOCK*). When Link entered the Dark World and it was revealed the Maidens were not in fact dead, but sealed inside crystals, then it allowed Link to continue his quest by rescuing the Maidens.

Is that not plausible?

Totally. When Link's finding out that they haven't died clears up what had been assumed before, the exact denotation of "sacrifice" is no hindrance anymore.

Edited by Jumbie, 16 May 2008 - 07:36 PM.


#170 Raien

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 07:55 PM

Jumbie, why does the IW have to exist as a game in order to be a legitimate back story to ALTTP? TMC and TP have back stories that won't appear as games after all. Okay, it's fair enough that you think OoT is similar enough to the IW to be the same event, but with Ganondorf dead in TP, there's no real reason why the IW can't refer to the birth of a new Ganon, according to the order of games in Ize's theory.

#171 NM87

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 10:04 PM

Mike

The Japanese word translated into "Sacrificed" denotes specifically to living beings who's lives are sacrificed, as opposed to sacrificing something like food or prayer beads or something. It's a fact that Link saves the Maidens and uses their power, and it's also a fact that he used the Triforce to bring the King of Hyrule back to life. It's pretty easy to logically deduce from there that the Maidens were magically killed, had their souls sealed, and then revived by Link.


Although you find it hard to logically deuce that the crests in TP do not mean that the chosen ones have the Triforces?

Jumbie

Let's insert in the following line our respective ideas of where the magic originated:
The magic flows out (of the SR) through the temples. [my interpretation]
The magic flows out (of the temples) through the temples. [your interpretation]

So, the bosses are the magic that flowed out of the Dark World


My interpretation is more like “The magic flows out (of the boss) through the temples.” The bosses don’ come from the SR, Ganondorf sends them there. Besides, half the bosses are all existing monster in Hyrule (Volvagia, Bongo Bongo, Twinrova) Ganondorf’s clone (Phantom Ganon) and the only one who could be considered a Dark World monster is Morpha, who is probably not since its just an aquatic amoeba formed from the water turning evil or something. So, the bosses aren’t really Ganondorf’s minions anyway. O say Volvagia was a monster from the Dark World is incorrect.

After all non-temple dungeons, Link is sent straight outside. Only in the OoT temples, he is sent to the Chamber of Sages. We aren't shown Link in the ToT.
And besides, if Link attempted to enter the Chamber of Sages from the ToT, all he would achieve is going back to the past…


The Chamber of Sages is located in the Temple of Light, which is the Temple of Time.

As for everything else, I don’t feel the need to reply. I can’t have twenty different arguments about each sentence that I wrote. Its an argument where everything works together, so I treat everyone’s replies as whole blocks instead of tearing I apart to so it makes no sense.

I felt addressed because in the last couple of days I've been the only one to post translations. We have other translators here, but they don't usually bring up new passages in the course of a debate like I did.
You don't have to be afraid of missing something, it either gets posted in my thread, or when I bring it up just like that, it's brand-new to everyone.


I understand, I appreciate your concern. Its like you are an extensive translation vault, no?

#172 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 12:40 PM

In my opinion, the Maidens were said to be sacrificed because it added a lot of drama to the first half of the game (especially when we see Zelda herself sacrificed *SHOCK*). When Link entered the Dark World and it was revealed the Maidens were not in fact dead, but sealed inside crystals, then it allowed Link to continue his quest by rescuing the Maidens.

Is that not plausible?


That's highly unlikely, in my opinion. Not to mention stupid and spitting in the face of Occam's Razor.

Although you find it hard to logically deuce that the crests in TP do not mean that the chosen ones have the Triforces?


Yes, because all the evidence is in favor of them having Triforce pieces, and the only proof against it is the fact that the word "Triforce" doesn't appear. It's silly. And besides, what the hell does it have to do with what you quoted?

#173 Raien

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 03:16 PM

That's highly unlikely, in my opinion. Not to mention stupid and spitting in the face of Occam's Razor.


How does it spit in the face of Occam's Razor? The Maidens were said to be sacrificed, but then we find them only sealed in crystals, so the simplest conclusion would be that the sacrifice was assumed by the Light World in order to add drama to the storyline. Saying that Link revived the maidens from death is complete speculation created by you.

Oh, and while I'm on the subject, you also said in the translation topic (although that post got deleted while the website underwent maintennance) that the Dark Tribe being stopped just before taking the Triforce also followed Occam's Razor, despite that it was neither said or suggested by Lanayru. Perhaps you should review your understanding of Occam's Razor before you try to force it into any more of your arguments, because I was led to believe that it meant "the simplest explanation derived straight from the facts", not "an explanation derived from facts and added speculation".

Yes, because all the evidence is in favor of them having Triforce pieces, and the only proof against it is the fact that the word "Triforce" doesn't appear.


There is also the fact that Ganondorf does not attempt to take the powers that Link and Zelda possess, despite attempting to do so in OoT.

Edited by Raian, 17 May 2008 - 03:18 PM.


#174 Hero of Legend

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 03:50 PM

If I may be so bold, I would suggest we take a look at what the Zelda Legends translation has to say:

Ganon collecting us was because with Ganon's power, the seal of the Seven Sages could not be broken.

Accordingly, using the priest Aghanim, he had the seven maidens who inherit the power of the Sages fed into the Dark World.

After he used our power and broke the seal, we, whose usefulness was over, were sealed in crystals and presented to monsters.


As you can see, it is fairly straightforward as to the the truth of the 'sacrificing.' A few points:

1) Though it is called a 'sacrifice', Agahnim’s ritual merely drew the maidens into the Dark World and thus we know that he, at least, did not kill them.
2) The very reason Agahnim did this was so that Ganon could use their power, and unless the maiden simply forgot to mention it (and Occam’s Razor is entirely useless in the face of Japanese logic) he didn't kill them either.
3) Instead, he sealed them in crystals and gave them to his monsters for... some reason; presumable to give them something pretty to look at.

And that concludes our story.

In other news, I now have newfound respect for the ALttP writers for this rather elegant plot twist.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 17 May 2008 - 03:54 PM.


#175 FDL

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 04:39 PM

There is also the fact that Ganondorf does not attempt to take the powers that Link and Zelda possess, despite attempting to do so in OoT.


Actually, that's the most likely reason for Ganondorf capturing Zelda and then doing nothing until Midna(who seems to temporarily hold the ToW) and Link(who definetly has the ToC) show up. He was using Zelda as bait to get the other piece(s) from Link, just like he did in the other games. Furthermore, that new translation that seems to imply Zelda actually passed the ToW to Midna makes it seem more likely to me that it's the real Triforce.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 17 May 2008 - 04:39 PM.


#176 Raien

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 04:46 PM

Actually, that's the most likely reason for Ganondorf capturing Zelda and then doing nothing until Midna(who seems to temporarily hold the ToW) and Link(who definetly has the ToC) show up. He was using Zelda as bait to get the other piece(s) from Link, just like he did in the other games. Furthermore, that new translation that seems to imply Zelda actually passed the ToW to Midna makes it seem more likely to me that it's the real Triforce.


Possibly. To me, though, I got the impression that Ganondorf was holding Zelda captive as a trophy to prove his triumph over conquering Hyrule. At no point did he make any move toward Zelda (or Link or Midna, for that matter) to suggest he was after their Triforce pieces. There wasn't even a suggestion of resonating crests from Link or Midna or Zelda, which is what happened when the trio were in the same room in OoT and TWW.

#177 NM87

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 10:52 PM

That's highly unlikely, in my opinion. Not to mention stupid and spitting in the face of Occam's Razor.


This is not my argument, but do not bring up Ockham's razor in a Zelda debate. Ockham's razor is used in philosoph firstly, which it clearly states "Do not multiply entities beyond what is strictly necesary to explain the phenoma". It does not state "the simplest exlanation is the best". Since Zelda is all theory, considered philosophy, everything in the explanation about the maidens is "strictly necesary" and therefore, you cannot prove otherwise that it is not.

Ockham's razor is negated in Zelda outright. It is easily refuted by stating “these entities are strictly necessary to explain the phenomena”.

Yes, because all the evidence is in favor of them having Triforce pieces, and the only proof against it is the fact that the word "Triforce" doesn't appear. It's silly. And besides, what the hell does it have to do with what you quoted?


Yes, because you say the evidence points toward them having a Triforce, that means they do. TP clearly conveys that hey were “awarded” the power of the goddesses, and that they received the power by a divine prank, not because any of them found the Triforce. None of that indicates they have a Triforce. That’s you big talking like you know all the answers.

#178 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 12:00 AM

How does it spit in the face of Occam's Razor? The Maidens were said to be sacrificed, but then we find them only sealed in crystals, so the simplest conclusion would be that the sacrifice was assumed by the Light World in order to add drama to the storyline. Saying that Link revived the maidens from death is complete speculation created by you.


1) We see their souls in hand-held crystals, instead of body crystals like Zelda in OOT or Din in OOS. Where the hell are their bodies?
2) Why add drama if it doesn't amount to anything?
3) We know for a FACT that Link revived the King with the Triforce. It's also a fact that he changed the Maidens from their crystal forms (whatever the nature of those forms may be) to their mortal, Maiden forms.

Oh, and while I'm on the subject, you also said in the translation topic (although that post got deleted while the website underwent maintennance) that the Dark Tribe being stopped just before taking the Triforce also followed Occam's Razor, despite that it was neither said or suggested by Lanayru.


That's taken a little bit out of context. I said that the following scenario won in an Occam's Razor analysis instead of someone else's needlessly elaborate, speculation-riddled conjecture. I don't remember who's, but it was filled with nonsense.

There is also the fact that Ganondorf does not attempt to take the powers that Link and Zelda possess, despite attempting to do so in OoT.


This is of course assuming that TP Ganondorf gives a damn about the Triforce. He seems to be content with the third he has, along with the Power of Darkness.

Occam’s Razor is entirely useless in the face of Japanese logic


WTF?

Yes, because you say the evidence points toward them having a Triforce, that means they do. TP clearly conveys that hey were “awarded” the power of the goddesses, and that they received the power by a divine prank, not because any of them found the Triforce. None of that indicates they have a Triforce. That’s you big talking like you know all the answers.


I can't understand how people still cling to the Divine Prank bullshit after Jumbie's translations prove otherwise. And isn't being awarded the power of the goddesses the same as being given a Triforce piece? Honestly.

#179 NM87

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 01:30 AM

I can't understand how people still cling to the Divine Prank bullshit after Jumbie's translations prove otherwise. And isn't being awarded the power of the goddesses the same as being given a Triforce piece? Honestly.


"Probably by a prank of the gods, the fellow, too, was somebody chosen by the gods to have power."

This is Jumbies translation, and I see no difference between "divine prank" and "prank of the gods". Seriously, all this translation does is strengthen my argument, as it states that they were chose to "have power", which simply means to...have power. Meaning they only got the power of their respective goddess and not a piece of the Triforce. You act as if he goddesses can only give out power by handing out pieces of the Triforce. The goddesses are omnipotent, they are all powerful, they can give their power to whoever they please. They don't need the Triforce to do so.

Also, look at my post if you are still confused as to why Ockham's razor is useless in Zelda. Besides, if someone is multiplying entities for an explanation it is you. You claim they die and they are revived, but we claim they never die in the first place, thus using one entity to solve this mystery, so stop being hypocritical.

Edited by NM87, 18 May 2008 - 01:32 AM.


#180 Raien

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 11:19 AM

1) We see their souls in hand-held crystals, instead of body crystals like Zelda in OOT or Din in OOS. Where the hell are their bodies?


The purpose of the crystals in ALTTP was to simplify the appearance of the Maidens, as well as allow Link to effectively carry the maidens in his pockets. It was simpler to depict crystals on the item and map screens, as well as when the crystals spun around to break the barrier to Ganon's Tower.

But as for the state of the Maidens inside the crystals, it could be that their souls are simply trapped or it could be that their bodies have been transformed to fit inside the crystals. It's like when Vaati was sealed inside the Four Sword; he wasn't killed so that his soul could fit inside the sword, his body was transformed to fit inside. Your argument is a possibility, but my argument is just as valid.

2) Why add drama if it doesn't amount to anything?


Because it makes the first part of the game more interesting for the player.

3) We know for a FACT that Link revived the King with the Triforce. It's also a fact that he changed the Maidens from their crystal forms (whatever the nature of those forms may be) to their mortal, Maiden forms.


Or, he just released from their crystal prisons. The ending subtitle says "The king is revived.", not "The king and maidens are revived." after all. It's speculation that the Triforce was needed to break the crystals; I really don't see how this supports your argument.

This is of course assuming that TP Ganondorf gives a damn about the Triforce. He seems to be content with the third he has, along with the Power of Darkness.


As said in the other topic, Ganondorf was able to conquer Hyrule with the ToP alone, but needed the other pieces to prevent others from contesting his rulership. That alone would be reason to take the other pieces in TP.




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