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Evidence For and Against Pre-Ocarina TMC


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#271 Vertiboy

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 01:43 PM

I don't know, let's see.

Hey. TMC is the origin of Link's Hat. Discuss.

TMC could be the origin of the hat with the green tunic, or it may be symbolic of the start of that tradition, but we can't directly link it to OoT, so there is no way of knowing for sure.

#272 Duke Serkol

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 05:25 PM

But we do know the green tunic was around before MC, specifically worn by the hero of men. And thanks to TP, we know its design is in truth divine.

#273 LionHarted

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 06:36 PM

I could've sworn that all TP told us was that it was worn by some previous hero.

#274 Duke Serkol

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 07:48 PM

Uhm, I checked the script on Game FAQs and you're right, so either I remember wrong (which is perfectly possible) or it's a difference between Wii and GC/PAL version.

#275 LionHarted

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 09:05 PM

Which script did you check? 'cause I have the GC version.

Edited by LionHarted, 21 April 2007 - 09:06 PM.


#276 Duke Serkol

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 09:38 PM

I think the only script available is the American Wii one. So yeah, faulty memory must be it.

#277 BourgeoisJerry

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Posted 21 April 2007 - 11:01 PM

How about we leave the hat alone for now and try making that list?

#278 Vertiboy

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 05:22 PM

How about we leave the hat alone for now and try making that list?

We pretty much have the list. We are just discussing some of the items on it now.

Here is what I think about the TWW Hylian on the books in the library on TMC. I think that OoT Hylian has been retconned to TWW Hylian. When older Hylian appears in TP, most of it is TWW Hylian. While it is possible that both the child and adult timelines could eventually speak TWW Hylian, and that Ganondorf's reign over Hyrule didn't affect the progression of the Hylian language, it makes a little more sense just to say that OoT Hylian has been retconned.

#279 BourgeoisJerry

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 05:39 PM

Can anybody familiar with the Hylian languages check the headbands Koume and Kotake are wearing to see which kind of Hylian they're written in? Zeldawiki.org says they're written in Wind Waker Hylian.

#280 Duke Serkol

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 07:24 PM

But TWW Hylian didn't exist when Koume and Kotake's models were made :blink:

#281 LionHarted

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Posted 23 April 2007 - 08:21 PM

Can anybody familiar with the Hylian languages check the headbands Koume and Kotake are wearing to see which kind of Hylian they're written in? Zeldawiki.org says they're written in Wind Waker Hylian.

Which would be nice.

If it were true.

#282 Chaltab

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 03:39 PM

Hyrule Castle is in the northern most point of central Hyrule as in Ocarina, not in the middle like in FSA and ALTTP.
The northernmost point of the world map in Ocarina need not be the northernmost point of Hyrule in OoT or in any other game. This is just the area you access in the game. I could similarly say that the presence of a swamp in TMC, FSA, and ALttP means that those three games are definitely connected, but the fact of the matter is that there may have been a swamp in other games that we never traveled to.


Granted.

There is a fairly lengthy path between Castle Town and the Castle itself.
Castle Town is not a geographical location; it is a man-made town, and can grow and shrink over time.


True, but to date only three games have had a castle town. It's a location that seems to be tied directly to the epoch in which Ocarina happens, as it doesn't exist in games that definitively take place AFTER TWW for obvious reasons.

Death Mountain is not accessible from Hyrule, yet is in every other Hyrule-bound Zelda game.
Assuming Mount Crenel is not Death Mountain.


All things considered, this is a pretty safe assumption.

Lon Lon Ranch, though in a different place, exists, implying relative temporal proximity to Ocarina.
Most games share locales with Ocarina. Not all games are relatively close to Ocarina temporally.


True, but there is no Lon Lon Ranch in Hyrule of Twilight Princess. Ergo, I assume that the lineage of Talon and Malon ceased to be ranchers and became something else. This isn't concrete, obviously, but I think it's worth something.

The location of the dessert in all other games is occupied by a swamp and wind ruins in TMC
Actually, there is a swamp in relatively the same place in FSA and ALttP, featuring similar man-made ruins/landmarks, as I already mentioned. Both of these are typically considered to be after OoT.


I know there was one in the Dark World, but that wouldn't have any relevance to Light World geography. And those games are only considered after OOT because they clearly tie into the saga of Ganon, which can't be said of TMC.

#283 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 03:44 PM

True, but to date only three games have had a castle town. It's a location that seems to be tied directly to the epoch in which Ocarina happens, as it doesn't exist in games that definitively take place AFTER TWW for obvious reasons.


Why wouldn't there be a Castle Town next to a rebuilt castle, at least for a short time?

All things considered, this is a pretty safe assumption.

So the Gorons left one mountain for apparently no reason, took up merchant-ship, gave up merchant-ship, then went to another one that's practically the same, then left again (TP, TWW) to become merchants?

True, but there is no Lon Lon Ranch in Hyrule of Twilight Princess.

But there IS one in FSA. ;)

I know there was one in the Dark World, but that wouldn't have any relevance to Light World geography.

There's one in the Light World, too. East of the desert, west of Lake Hylia.

#284 Chaltab

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 04:03 PM

Why wouldn't there be a Castle Town next to a rebuilt castle, at least for a short time?


Possible, but nothing concrete.

So the Gorons left one mountain for apparently no reason, took up merchant-ship, gave up merchant-ship, then went to another one that's practically the same, then left again (TP, TWW) to become merchants?

Um... They had to leave their home Mt. Crenel in TMC for reasons I don't recall. My theory goes that some time after this, they settled in Death Mountain. They had a new home. The Flood happens, and the Goron species dies out in the nation of Hyrule. The few that remain became merchants.

A better question is 'Why in the world would death mountain randomly be renamed Mt. Crenel for a while when in every other game it's called Death Mountain.'

The most obvious assumption is that they're two different mountains. (This alone isn't timeline evidence, but their lack of a home while off of Mt. Crenel is.)

But there IS one in FSA. ;)


Don't try to derail my argument with facts and and smileys, darn it! >_<

There's one in the Light World, too. East of the desert, west of Lake Hylia.


Then it's not in the same location. And, not to be pedantic, but that little wetland is more of a marsh and is closer relatively speaking to TMC Link's house than it is to the swamp.

Though now that I look at the maps, it seems like TMC's Hyrule is much smaller than that of ALTTP, so most of this debate is probably moot.

#285 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 04:10 PM

A better question is 'Why in the world would death mountain randomly be renamed Mt. Crenel for a while when in every other game it's called Death Mountain.'

Great Flood? ;P

Why is the source of all water in Hyrule, which we know to be Zora's Fountain, named Veil Falls?

Then it's not in the same location. And, not to be pedantic, but that little wetland is more of a marsh and is closer relatively speaking to TMC Link's house than it is to the swamp.

Relatively speaking, there is no Mount Crenel in ALttP's map. Where did it go?

#286 Chaltab

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 04:21 PM

Why is the source of all water in Hyrule, which we know to be Zora's Fountain, named Veil Falls?


Why is Bigoron on top of it? There aren't any Zora in TMC, are there? Aside from the evil variety. Obviously, it wouldn't be named Zora Fountain until the Zora named it that.

Relatively speaking, there is no Mount Crenel in ALttP's map. Where did it go?


Great Flood? ;P

Nah, in all seriousness, for the pre-OOT placement, Mt. Crenel has vanished by the time of OOT. Where it went? Eh, who knows. Maybe it exploded like Mt. Vesuvius. :P

#287 MikePetersSucks

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 04:39 PM

Well, sure, if you want to kill off the entire Hyrulean population.

#288 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 05:01 PM

Erupting volcanoes in the series:
Death Mountain (OoT, TP)

Non-erupting volcanoes in the series:
Mt. Crenel (TMC)
Death Mountain (FSA, ALttP, LoZ)

Why is Bigoron on top of it?

Why not? I'm sure it's getting more traffic than Death Mountain, er, Mount Crenel. xP

Then it's not in the same location.

(point on the swamp I forgot to address)
Really? It's in the exact same place as the swamp in FSA.
Which, consequently, is in the same place relative to the rest of the landscape as the swamp in TMC.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 April 2007 - 05:02 PM.


#289 Sentient

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 05:08 PM

Why is Bigoron on top of it? There aren't any Zora in TMC, are there? Aside from the evil variety. Obviously, it wouldn't be named Zora Fountain until the Zora named it that.

There aren't even any evil Zoras in TMC :D.

Great Flood? ;P

Or perhaps people studied old relics and records that survived the Flood (as stated in the ALttP manual, assuming ALttP is on the adult timeline) and began to rename locations with their proper names, making Mt Crenel once again become Death Mountain.

Nah, in all seriousness, for the pre-OOT placement, Mt. Crenel has vanished by the time of OOT. Where it went? Eh, who knows. Maybe it exploded like Mt. Vesuvius. tongue.gif

Or perhaps it was renamed Death Mountain? (assuming TMC is before OoT)

#290 Jumbie

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 05:31 PM

Btw, where is Snowpeak in the other Zelda games...? Maybe, just maybe, there can be other mountains in Hyrule besides just Death Mountain. Islands in TWW, anyone? (Eh, my point is actually that Mt Crenel doesn't necessarily have to be Death Mountain just because it's not visible in any other games.)

#291 D~N

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 06:04 PM

I had a theory about Snowpeak...
Since it lined up perfectly with the Graveyard area of the old LOZ, I considered them to be similar places. THe only basis I have for this, really, is that they are both snowy mountain-like areas.

I think it's safe to say that aland surrounded by mountains and water has more than one mountain.
*votes "two different mountains"*

#292 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 06:48 PM

Btw, where is Snowpeak in the other Zelda games...? Maybe, just maybe, there can be other mountains in Hyrule besides just Death Mountain. Islands in TWW, anyone? (Eh, my point is actually that Mt Crenel doesn't necessarily have to be Death Mountain just because it's not visible in any other games.)

My point about them being the same is that the Gorons used to live there.

#293 FDL

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 08:39 PM

Or perhaps people studied old relics and records that survived the Flood (as stated in the ALttP manual, assuming ALttP is on the adult timeline) and began to rename locations with their proper names, making Mt Crenel once again become Death Mountain.


Why would you assume TWW is in the adult timeline, though? I mean, that quote from ALttP's manual is one of the things that makes it impossible to assume it. If you go by the intent of TWW and the ending's implications it's unlikely that anything from old Hyrule would survive.

#294 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:20 PM

If you go by the intent of TWW and the ending's implications it's unlikely that anything from old Hyrule would survive.

Besides the heaps of pottery, of all things, that you salvage on occasion from the ocean depths, the treasure chests in which the Triforce shards are hidden, the temples in which the sages are supposed to be, etc. etc. etc.

Because if a freaking piece of ceramic can survive a flood when the landscape and ruins can't, there's something seriously wrong with this picture. :/

#295 FDL

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:26 PM

Besides the heaps of pottery, of all things, that you salvage on occasion from the ocean depths, the treasure chests in which the Triforce shards are hidden, the temples in which the sages are supposed to be, etc. etc. etc.

Because if a freaking piece of ceramic can survive a flood when the landscape and ruins can't, there's something seriously wrong with this picture. :/

Except it wasn't actually flooded until the king made that wish. It was sealed with water covering it but not flooded.

#296 LionHarted

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Posted 24 April 2007 - 09:35 PM

Except it wasn't actually flooded until the king made that wish. It was sealed with water covering it but not flooded.

I don't remember anything being destroyed when the water flowed over Hyrule post-wish, namely Ganon's Tower, the thing you'd expect to see collapse.

#297 The Missing Link

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 12:38 AM

I don't remember anything being destroyed when the water flowed over Hyrule post-wish, namely Ganon's Tower, the thing you'd expect to see collapse.

I also don't remember anything not being destroyed when the water flowed over Hyrule post-wish.

Becuse you don't exactly see much of anything in the cutscenes that follow. If my memory serves me correctly, at best it's an open issue.

#298 Duke Serkol

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:49 AM

Besides the heaps of pottery, of all things, that you salvage on occasion from the ocean depths, the treasure chests in which the Triforce shards are hidden, the temples in which the sages are supposed to be, etc.

Speaking of which guys, do you think Link pulls up stuff (Triforce shards in particular) from the dry land below the suspended water, or from the water filled are on the mountains upper walls?

#299 LionHarted

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 07:54 AM

I also don't remember anything not being destroyed when the water flowed over Hyrule post-wish.

Again, Ganon's Tower?

#300 Arturo

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 08:28 AM

That's clearly a game device, because, obviously that part can't be destroyed if Link and Zelda are there.

Here is a point many people tend to ignore about TMC's placing. In teh French and teh German versions of the game it says

C'est ainsi que prend fin la première
aventure de Link.

Which means something like "it's this way that Link's first adventure comes to end", while the German version says:

Hiermit endet das erste
Abenteuer von Link.

, which roughly means "thus, ends the first adventure of Link".

We can't be sure whether this is correct, because the Englñish, Italian and Spanish version say differently. But it wouldn't be the first time the German verison is right while the others are wrong (for example, the Minish Woods are called both in Japanese and German Pycolite Woods).


Moreover, all the translations of the agme seem to communicate the feeling that Link's adventure will never end as long as the Light Force is around. This would emzan two things:

1. The Light Force is the Triforce, because it's what guides Link's adventures in the rest of the agmes

2.This is Link's first adventure. If this wasn't true, why is it necessary adding the part that Link will ahve many more adventures in teh future and will always stay to protect Hyrule? Doesn't it make much more sense if TMC comes first?


Discuss.




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