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#31 Arturo

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 02:58 PM

We don't see the sun, so we don't have the security of it being accurate. Also, East and South-East is a minor difference

#32 LionHarted

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 03:48 PM

If TWW is in the Addult Timeline, as said by logic and creators, ALttP has no choice but to be on the Child one. Because of their clear incompatibilities.

Two things:
1) The creators never said that TWW is in the "adult timeline". You said that.
2) What incompatibilities?

And in TWW it is said that the Gods themeselves sealed Ganondorf, not the Seven Sages (and I am not speaking about the flood).

I'm sorry, but you are speaking about the Flood.

...He who obtained the power of the gods, attempted to cover the land in darkness, and was ultimately sealed away by the very power he hoped to command. He is the very same Ganon... The emperor of the dark realm the ancient legends speak of... I do not know why the seal of the gods has failed, but now that Ganon has returned, the world is once again being threatened by his evil magic.

Obviously Ganon escaped from the Sacred Realm before the Flood. That was the Sages' seal. Then Hyrule was flooded to prevent Ganon from gaining control of Hyrule: "When the gods heard our pleas, they chose to seal away not only Ganon, but Hyrule itself...and so, with a torrential downpour of rains from the heavens..." Now he's escaped from the Flooded Hyrule--from the seal of the gods. The "seal of the gods" is the Flood.

And is Ganondorf was simply the the SR, his evil would have already started to spread through the temples of Hyrule, as said by Rauru.

Prove it. You don't know what exactly happens after Ganondorf takes the Triforce. We do know, however, that Hyrule is still peaceful during the entire span of Child OoT, even after his initial drawing of the Master Sword. That could have been a span of anywhere from days to weeks to months.

Edited by LionHarted, 23 October 2006 - 03:50 PM.


#33 garsh

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 04:43 PM

We don't see the sun, so we don't have the security of it being accurate. Also, East and South-East is a minor difference

But we do see the shadows, which is a clear and undeniable indicator of the sun's relative location. One of the best examples is in Kakariko village where the houses cast a distinct shadow behind them and to the right. It's safe to asume the East Palace is at least somewhat East of Kakariko, so this suggests the sun would be past the point of noon and beginning to set down in the West. I don't want to read too much into that because I don't think the lighting was that kind of concern for the designers at the time. More likely it was an afterthought just to make the graphics look appealing. And let's not forget there's a weather vane in Kakariko town square with all the compass directions clearly indicated, as Scarfy just pointed out to me.

#34 Fyxe

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 05:40 PM

Not only is there the weather vane (with the north, south, east and west symbols clearly marked on the ground around it), but all the characters refer to Death Mountain as being north and obviously the Eastern Palace as being east.

If you twist the map of OoT or ALttP, you change the direction of north. That makes even attempting to make connections between the geography rather pointless. You can adjust the way we look at the map all you like, but you can't change the position of the sun.

Edited by Fyxe, 23 October 2006 - 05:41 PM.


#35 Duke Serkol

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Posted 23 October 2006 - 05:52 PM

Went and had a look... turns out that climbing beanstalks in MC actually does provide for a clear view of mountains stretching all the way from west to east.
And they sorta have a U shape (though that could be because Link is so high).

#36 Arturo

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 08:56 AM

Two things:
1) The creators never said that TWW is in the "adult timeline". You said that.
2) What incompatibilities?


The creators said that it was hundreds of years after the adult ending in the adult period. And the incompatibilities are so obvious we are not going to elaborate on them. Think a little bit. To help you I'll give you a hint:

Obviously Ganon escaped from the Sacred Realm before the Flood. That was the Sages' seal. Then Hyrule was flooded to prevent Ganon from gaining control of Hyrule:


Last time I checked, in ALttP Ganon was attempting to destroy the Sages' Seal. Last time I checked a Seal could not be destroyed TWICE. But that was only last time I checked.

I'm sorry, but you are speaking about the Flood.


I am sorry, but I know better than you what I][/am] speaking about. Read this quote. King of Red Lions:

...He who obtained the power of the gods,
attempted to cover the land in darkness,
and was ultimately sealed away by the
very power he hoped to command.

This happens in OoT, not in TWW BS. Compare with OoT Zelda:

Ganondorf...pitiful man...
Without a strong, righteous mind, he could not control the power of the gods...and...


Prove it. You don't know what exactly happens after Ganondorf takes the Triforce. We [i]do know, however, that Hyrule is still peaceful during the entire span of Child OoT, even after his initial drawing of the Master Sword. That could have been a span of anywhere from days to weeks to months.


Rauru:

His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule, and in seven short years, it transformed Hyrule into a world of monsters.

Sheik:

The resting place of the sacred triangle, the Sacred Realm, is a mirror that reflects what is in the heart...
the heart of one who enters it...
If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise.


Just after Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm, since it becomes a reflection of his dark heart, the temples start to radiate and.... No peaceful Hyrule. The opposite happens in Child Ending. We see once again a peaceful Hyrule. Do you even consider that Zelda would come back to the Castle for such a short time? Come on, she has prophetic powers and knows what happens when someone evil enters in the Sacred Realm. She would know perfectly that the Castle would be no safe place. Also, in Impa's quite it's implied clearly that Zelda never got back to the castle after they fled:

On that day seven years ago, Ganondorf suddenly attacked... and Hyrule Castle surrendered after a short time.
Ganondorf's target was one of the keys to the Sacred Realm...the hidden treasure of the Royal Family... The Ocarina of Time!
My duty bound me to take Zelda out of Ganondorf's reach. When last I saw you, as we made our escape from the castle, you were just a lad...
Now I see that you have become a fine hero...


If they never came back during this "peace" time, why would Zelda be back during that "peace" time in the Child Ending. It simply goes against the laws of logic.

#37 LionHarted

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 09:38 AM

The creators said that it was hundreds of years after the adult ending in the adult period.

And you said that there're two timelines. Not the creators.

And the incompatibilities are so obvious we are not going to elaborate on them.

If you're not going to present them, I can only assume that you're pulling this out of your ass.

Last time I checked, in ALttP Ganon was attempting to destroy the Sages' Seal. Last time I checked a Seal could not be destroyed TWICE. But that was only last time I checked.

Again, if you place FSA before ALttP and cast the FSA Maidens as descendants of the Seven Sages, you easily solve this problem.

This happens in OoT, not in TWW BS.

BS. The power of the Sages seals Ganon away in OoT, not the power of the gods.
"The power of the Sages remains.
When the power of all the Sages is awakened...
The Sages' Seals will contain all the evil power in the void of the Realm..."


And your Sheik quote is completely unrelated to the seal.

Just after Ganondorf enters the Sacred Realm, since it becomes a reflection of his dark heart, the temples start to radiate and.... No peaceful Hyrule.

The "just after" was inserted by you.






The rest of your post assumes a timeless seal, which I obviously don't think is possible or logical. And since we're straying way off-topic, please discuss this further over MSN.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 October 2006 - 09:53 AM.


#38 CID Farwin

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 04:19 PM

As for the connections between ALttP's and OoT's map... You do realise that relies on changing the direction of north, right? Meaning that they don't actually add up, because Death Mountain is to the north in ALttP, but it's not to the north in OoT. If you change the direction of the north in ALttP, then places like the Eastern Palace are no longer in the east of Hyrule.

If you twist the map of OoT or ALttP, you change the direction of north. That makes even attempting to make connections between the geography rather pointless. You can adjust the way we look at the map all you like, but you can't change the position of the sun.


Who said that north is always up on a map? Have you looked at the compass rose for OoT? Yes, there's an N by the up-facing point, but there's also an arrow pointing towards "Northeast."

The power of the Sages seals Ganon away in OoT, not the power of the gods.

Really?

Ancient Creators of Hyrule!
Now, open the sealed door
and send the Evil Incarnation of
Darkness into the void of the
Evil Realm!!
-Rauru at Ganon's Sealing, Emphasis added


Edited by CID Farwin, 24 October 2006 - 04:33 PM.


#39 Fyxe

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 05:49 PM

Who said that north is always up on a map? Have you looked at the compass rose for OoT? Yes, there's an N by the up-facing point, but there's also an arrow pointing towards "Northeast."

If you paid attention at all to the discussion, north is also directly up on ALttP's map. Meaning you can't twist the maps to fit each other because you would be changing the direction of north, south, east and west.

Really?

They may call upon the gods to aid them in opening the gateway, but that doesn't mean the gods seal Ganon. It is the Seven Sages who sealed Ganon, you cannot deny this. Hence the Sage's Seal.

#40 CID Farwin

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 06:21 PM

If you paid attention at all to the discussion, north is also directly up on ALttP's map. Meaning you can't twist the maps to fit each other because you would be changing the direction of north, south, east and west.

But, what about the arrow?

They may call upon the gods to aid them in opening the gateway, but that doesn't mean the gods seal Ganon. It is the Seven Sages who sealed Ganon, you cannot deny this. Hence the Sage's Seal.


Fair enough point. I guess that would also explain how ganon is able to eventually escape.

I would like to show a contradiction of canon I found.

Ancient Creators of Hyrule!
Now, open the sealed door
and send the Evil Incarnation of
Darkness into the void of the
Evil Realm!!
-Rauru at Ganon's Sealing, Emphasis added

VS.

Oh sealed door opened by the
Sages
... Close forever with
the Evil Incarnation of Darkness
within!!
-emphasis added


I fount this in my text dump, and I'm not sure who said the second one, but I see a clear contradiction. I would like to know what the Japanese version has to say about this.

The sages did request the door opened, maybe that's what it means, can anyone help me here!?

Edited by CID Farwin, 24 October 2006 - 06:39 PM.


#41 Fyxe

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 06:58 PM

But, what about the arrow?


What about the arrow? What are you talking about? People are arguing that if you twist OoT's map you can fit it fairly accurately over ALttP's map. I'm arguing that *because* of that arrow, you can't just look at OoT's map from another angle like that because north would be in a completely different place. You'd have to rearrange the whole world for the maps to match up correctly.

The sages did request the door opened, maybe that's what it means, can anyone help me here!?


Technically, the Sages did it all - essentially they channeled the power of the gods. You could, if you wanted, say that meant the gods did it... But the gods just create the powers in the universe, they don't use them to change things directly (not until the flood, anyway). The Sages were utilising the powers of the gods to seal Ganon. Therefore, they were the ones doing the work and doing the sealing. To say the gods did it would be missing the point.

#42 LionHarted

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Posted 24 October 2006 - 11:21 PM

Technically, the Sages did it all - essentially they channeled the power of the gods. You could, if you wanted, say that meant the gods did it... But the gods just create the powers in the universe, they don't use them to change things directly (not until the flood, anyway). The Sages were utilising the powers of the gods to seal Ganon.

Baseless ignorance of in-game text, which says "power of the Sages", not "power of the gods". When the games make a distinction, it's generally a good idea to assume that that distinction is significant. The only instance in which the gods are connected directly with any seal is the following: "When the gods heard our pleas, they chose to seal away not only Ganon, but Hyrule itself...and so, with a torrential downpour of rains from the heavens...Our fair kingdom was soon buried beneath the waves, forgotten at the bottom of the ocean."

Additionally, to Arturo, the quote you used as evidence was used to describe Ganon. Ganon "obtained the power of the gods" in OoT, "attempted to cover the land in darkness" pre-TWW, and "was ultimately sealed away by the very power he hoped to command" by the Flood.

Edited by LionHarted, 24 October 2006 - 11:23 PM.


#43 Fyxe

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 04:27 AM

Baseless ignorance of in-game text,


My god, you really don't pay attention to anything whatsoever, do you?

#44 Arturo

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 08:37 AM

Technically, the Sages did it all - essentially they channeled the power of the gods. You could, if you wanted, say that meant the gods did it... But the gods just create the powers in the universe, they don't use them to change things directly (not until the flood, anyway). The Sages were utilising the powers of the gods to seal Ganon. Therefore, they were the ones doing the work and doing the sealing. To say the gods did it would be missing the point.


I think the Seven Sages receive the power DIRECTLY from the Goddesses. That's why they plea to them. The Seven Sages might be physical representations of their power. I think this is a little bit like when Jesus prays to the Father to perform miracles. Jesus does them, but through the Father's power. So the same goes for the Seven Sages.

Also, to CID Farwin, that quote is never used in-game, but appears in the text dump. So no-one says it.

Edited by Arturo, 25 October 2006 - 08:38 AM.


#45 SOAP

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 06:35 PM

What about the arrow? What are you talking about? People are arguing that if you twist OoT's map you can fit it fairly accurately over ALttP's map. I'm arguing that *because* of that arrow, you can't just look at OoT's map from another angle like that because north would be in a completely different place. You'd have to rearrange the whole world for the maps to match up correctly.


The arrow would be pointing to Magnetic North, which is what ALttP's map is orientated too, while North on the compass just points to the top of the map. Regardless, you have to adjust the angle of OoT's map anyways because it ISN'T accurate to begin with and IS drawn at angle. Look at it! Lake Hylia looks bigger than the Haunted waste and that simply is not accuate. It's drawn at an angled perspective as if viewed by a person on very high tower. Clearly it's not drawn for accuracy. If you want to debate about the geography of Hyrule you have to guess and rearrange [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img]. But you simply can't take the maps as accurate as say, maps like this: http://www.worldpres.../world_600w.jpg. That's just ludicrus.

#46 Fyxe

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 07:01 PM

Nobody is saying that it's like that. Drawn at an angle or not, north is still north. o.o I don't think anyone was saying *any* of the maps in the Zelda games are 100% accurate, it's quite clear they're representations, but you can't just completely rearrange the compass directions for the sake of it.

#47 SOAP

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 07:20 PM

Okay then but is it that much a stretch to say that the arrow pointing Northeast is actually the real north, which btw if we align OoT map that way it makes the simmilaritities between OoT and ALttP maps taht much clearer? Nobody's completely changing the compass directions either by saying North is now South or anything crazy like that. North and Northeast is not that big of a difference, even without the arrow in the compass rose to go on.

#48 Fyxe

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 07:40 PM

Okay then but is it that much a stretch to say that the arrow pointing Northeast is actually the real north,


No, not hugely, but it is a bit of a cop-out. If Nintendo had intended any connection between the maps they would of at least got the compass directions right, surely.

#49 SOAP

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 07:58 PM

Maybe but I don't think Nintendo got the compass directions wrong, assuming that CID Farwin's theory about the Northeast arrow is correct, the arrow points to what's realling north just like a needle in an actual compass while the compass just points up because honestly it would look strange at angle. Nor do I think Nintendo even has to get the compass directions right to begin with. Hyrule is drawn the way it is because it just looks good like that. They probably just wanted Hyrule Castle to be "north" of everything else because it's the most important region in the game. If they drew Hyrule in same alignment as ALttP's Hyrule, it'd thow everything off balance and would just look... weird.

#50 Keen

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Posted 29 October 2006 - 10:25 PM

All this about directions? You, know, the poles can change over time, especially with all the supernatural intervention taking place in the Zelda Universe. So, one game's north need not be the same as another game's.

Edited by Lord Toran, 29 October 2006 - 10:25 PM.


#51 Hero of Slime

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 02:00 AM

But the direction of the poles would not change the actual direction. A change would only make a compass point south instead of north.

#52 Fyxe

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 06:57 AM

Maybe but I don't think Nintendo got the compass directions wrong, assuming that CID Farwin's theory about the Northeast arrow is correct, the arrow points to what's realling north just like a needle in an actual compass while the compass just points up because honestly it would look strange at angle.


If that were the case, why include the compass at all? And why not just adjust the map accordingly so it fits the compass? The map was designed to fit the compass directions as it is, else they wouldn't of put it there at all. It's a bit of an insult to the graphic designers (and etc.) to say that they just threw it in there for the sake of it without thinking.

Basically it's just a bit of a cheap cop-out to say that the compass is either just *wrong* or that the north just... Changes. It's bending what we see just to suit our own theories. Hell, fitting OoT's map on ALttP's map is bending what we see to a fair degree to begin with, and nobody can deny that because there are a variety of differences between the two maps. The direction of north is just one of many differences, it's just one of the most glaring ones.

Edited by Fyxe, 30 October 2006 - 06:58 AM.


#53 LionHarted

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 08:52 AM

Most likely, maps would be oriented to true north, based on the movements of the sun, not compass needles.

#54 Arturo

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 09:45 AM

We can just say that while OoT's North is the Geographical one, based on the position of the sun, and the ALttP on the magnetic north, since they are not the same.

But anyway, the positions fit fairly well.

#55 LionHarted

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 11:05 AM

Or we can just say that, since 2D worlds don't really exist, ALttP's map is a relative representation of the true scope of the land, and that gameplay areas and scale don't quite match up to OoT's because of the limitations of the SNES.

#56 Raien

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 11:37 AM

One thing that you have to understand is that the 2D world map is very immobile because of the top-down set up. For example, Death Mountain must always be at the back because of it's raised landscape (same with waterfalls).

Now, considering that Death Mountain is raised at the back, it might not be clear when, in FS, the Palace of Winds is revealed in front of Death Mountain as to where each location is. Therefore, by rotating the map, Death Mountain takes up only the side of the map screen so that there is an area of sky to place the Palace of Winds.

In OoT, the barriers that limited Hyrule's 2D landscape were gone so it can only be expected that they wanted to do something interesting with the map now that they had the choices to.

Edited by jhurvid, 30 October 2006 - 11:38 AM.


#57 Keen

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 03:21 PM

But the direction of the poles would not change the actual direction. A change would only make a compass point south instead of north.

I don't mean a polar switch, I mean that the axis could have been moved, turned about the world's center by, for example, 12 degrees.

Edited by Lord Toran, 30 October 2006 - 03:22 PM.


#58 Ogmios22188

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 10:02 PM

I don't mean a polar switch, I mean that the axis could have been moved, turned about the world's center by, for example, 12 degrees.

That's precisely correct. Magnetic north and south shift every several thousand years or so. If "Ocarina of Time" and "A Link to the Past" take place millennia apart, which could be the case, this could be what has occurred.

#59 SOAP

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 05:54 PM

I think it's a stretch to say Oot and ALttP are a millenia apart but anyways we don't need pole shift theories to explain Hyrule's geography. The OoT map points at True North, and the ALttP map points at Magnetic north as well as the arrow in the OoT maps compass.

#60 CID Farwin

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Posted 31 October 2006 - 09:53 PM

WOW! I leave on band tour and the forum erupts! And from MY observation! I can honestly say i'm shocked. Well, instead of quoting and pointing out people's comments, I'll just share my thoughts on a few things.

First of all, I consider magnetic poles changing and such to be more complicated than a direction mix-up, or at least it requires one to add more to the canon, whereas the direction mix-up pretty much uses what we have to work with.

Second of all, a direction mix-up is better than disregearding the ALttP-->OoT connection, no matter how small it may seem to some people.




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