9 replies to this topic

[Rogue Cucco]

Umm... hi. I'm Rogue Cucco , and I'm, uh, new.

I suppose I'm what they call a 'lurker,' so I've kinda seen how things go around here, and how the whole timeline theory thing works. Oh, so anyways, I've decided to post my own theory! Of course, I know things in the Timeline department have been a little quiet lately, but... here I go.

TMC - OOT (Young) - MM - TWW - TT
- OOT (Adult) - FS - FSA - ALTTP - LA - OOA - OOS/OOS - OOA - LOZ - AOL

Anyways, this is how I put it together.

OOT, ALTTP, and the IW

Due to mistranslations, the IW story has already been brought to more similarities by the way of re-translation. Quotes from the creators on how the IW served as a framework for OOT back this up, and during the seven years of Link's sleep, what I will call the 'Hylian Region' is attacked and destroyed. Presumably all Knights have died, echoing the Knights of Hyrule's battle with Ganon, while also Link can be a Knight due to ALTTP Link being from the knight's line and being OOT's sequel, implying that OOT Link may be a Knight, as the father was never known. We have visual evidence of at least one battle in OOT, the knight Zelda and Impa escape and a knight is wounded. If OOT's knighthood is accepted, he can fill in for the last bit of knights who worked with the Sages to seal Ganon.

There are a lot of differences, though, such as how the king calls the Sages in the IW as opposed to Zelda in OOT. However, I have a... well, hunch, that 'king' is equivalent to 'Royal Family,' as the plaque in front of the Sleepless Waterfall in OOT says that, "When the king slumbers, so to do these falls." However, Zelda's lullaby is for Zelda. So, maybe, king, princess, and so on can be used interchangebly? And, the rest of the IW and OOT differences can be left up to, generally, how you take it. (Does that make sense?)

OOT, MM, and TWW

There are sooo many MM references in TWW, its hard to see that The Legend of the Fairy was one of the first noticed. That, along with the breaking of the Triforce of Courage, the appearence of some Happy Masks in the Nintendo Gallery, and so on show that MM happened in the same storyline as TWW.

It is also important to note what the focus of TWW's backstory is. It is about the defeat of Ganon, and that is pretty much it, as opposed to ALTTP's focus on the actual war rather than Ganon alone. TWW doesn't even really mention a war, but just that Ganondorf(?) got the golden power. Remember that the Adult part of OOT dealt with carnage and destruction, while to the Young part alls that happened was Ganondorf looked for the Triforce.

And now, I look at what messed everything up: The confliction between TWW and ALTTP and OOT's ending.

Split Timelines Part I: How Does it Work?
I've counted 4 types of Time Travel- Master Sword, Sage of Time, Ocarina of Time, and Oracle of Ages. I think the Master Sword allows the user to basically 'experience' what will happen before and after Link goes into a coma. Basically, the future cannot be changed, so no matter which you experience first, Link will always do the same thing and has always done it- Take MS, know what happens at the Well, Let go, Get Lens, Take MS, know what happens at Collosus, Let Go, Get Gauntlets, etc. Until Link finally goes into a coma and actually does the stuff he already knows he did. And yes, I realize that doesn't make since. When Zelda used the Ocarina, it's different, since Link leaves the MS, and therefore cannot go to sleep, changing the past, which I will get to later. In MM, its a completely different Time Travel since this is the Goddess of Time working, and its simply Link's physical form reliving every single moment of his life until he reaches Day 1. That's why we see the Lost Woods scene repeated the first time Link goes backwards. In Oracle of Ages, it's also different, and a lot like Back to the Future, and since this is the Oracle working it doesn't really conflict with anything else so I'll save some space!

Split Timelines Part II: What Happened?
Huff... Huff... This is long. Anyways, given that Link has the Triforce of Courage after being sent back through time by Method II, this is after Ganondorf took the Triforce and split it- he has Power. The Sacred Realm is locked, though, so Ganon didn't get out, unless he can get out in a nano-second. Link tells Zelda what happened, and since he has Courage, this is important, and is 'legendary.' The Sages would probably know what happened in the 'future,' since Nabooru still needed to be saved from Twinrova if the future is 'erased.' What we need to remember, though, is this- Zelda sends Link back to switch around the past and close the Sacred Realm, but if the future can't happen then, Zelda wouldn't have existed to send him back. Yep, this is crazy. Anyways, this means Zelda still 'perceives' her existence, and Link 'percieves' his different existence. It isn't really even a 'Split Timeline,' but rather how each person percieves their own reality. You can view it that way if Split Timeline has bad connotations. What I'm trying to say is, so-called Split Timelines are necessary for OOT to be astrophysically possible.

At least, I think so.

If there is a 'split,' then this would allow TWW and ALTTP to exist seperately. As we can see, ALTTP relies on the Adult ending to exist, and TWW has MM existences everywhere. This would help explain the creator quote on how TWW takes place "hundreds of years-not one hundred-after the Adult ending of OOT." I've heard that a lot of plot points were changed in the last parts of TWW. (After all, it did have a tight schedule...) Sooo... maybe they still had the seperate existence, but just changed it too after Young Link's ending? People ussually jump to, "Hey, that quote is wrong. That means the entirety of it is off." But, what if it was just half-off? As for the Sage windows in TWW, the Sages could have just grown up, and people would still know they were Sages from Link's information, and they would have somehow awakened theirselves?

Now, I'll fill in the rest of the Timeline through Geography.

Has anyone read those articles davegones made in ZL? They're really good and show how their is a concentrated effort to have continuity in the Geography of Hyrule. In all the games besides LA till OOT, they share similar features- you just have to tilt OOT's map!

TMC

So, I tried this with TMC's map, which is, IMO, the farthest from anything else. I noticed that Lon Lon Ranch is to the east of Hyrule Castle Town. I also noticed that in OOT, Lon Lon Ranch is sorta off-center to the West. To the east of OOT LLR, there is an almost square stone structure made out of THE EXACT SAME STONE as OOT HCT. It is slighly more than 90 degrees, but that could be from soil pushing it. So, I... deduced that the two maps were off by 180 degrees, and the stone structure in Hyrule Field in OOT is TMC's HCT. I then realized that Lake Hylia matched up with OOT's, and the Minish Woods matched up, not with OOT's Lost Woods, but ALTTP's. Right next to the Minish Woods is Link's house, which in ALTTP would match up with the area in between Death Mountain and the Lost Woods, where, if you match up OOT and ALTTP's maps, Hyrule Castle is in OOT, as the TOT is next to is and the Sanctuary is next to that valley, the 'Hylian Region.'

FSA

FSA's placement relies on Geography too. The East Palace is most noticable. Also, notice that OOT Death Mountain is very active, while ALTTP just shakes around. It has the Tower of Hera, which is sort of... tallness based? FSA has the Tower of Flames, which is fire based. I'm thinking that the Tower of Flames was fiery due to the mountain being fiery, and then it cooled down and became the Tower of Hera. Also, the Lost Woods are in NW, like ALTTP. All this points to OOT - FSA - ALTTP.

So...

TMC - OOT (Young) - MM - TWW - TT
- OOT (Adult) - FS - FSA - ALTTP - LA - OOA - OOS/OOS - OOA - LOZ - AOL

I've ran out of everything I know about Zelda stuff. I really have no more purpose here... I guess this is where I leave, right?

Nice posting to you guys. That was kinda fun. As a last word, don't give up on the Timeline!

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 25 February 2007 - 10:10 PM.

[Showsni]

Firstly, welcome to the forums.

Secondly, to crush your theory.. mwahaha! Well, maybe not. I don't like equating OoT with the IW, and I don't like splits, but I suppose I'll have to live with that... Personally I think that a single timeline without the need for explaining the differences between OoT and the IW is a lot simpler.

I assume you put Sleeping Zelda after Oracles (since the triforce is whole there) - this doesn't gel with the information about her being the "first generation" Zelda who started the naming tradition. Ideally, it should come as the first event in the timeline.

You have FSA in between OoT and ALttP, yet you think OoT is the IW? How do the Ganons match up? Ganon doesnlt leave the SR between IW and ALttP, so is the FSA one a seperate one who's alive at the same time as the other Ganon?

Using geography is all very well, but it doesn't stand up too well against a lot of other things. Sadly the desogners haven't often seemed to take geographical continuity into account when making games... it can be useful to put finishing touches on, though. I really need to make a comparison between the ALttP Dark World warps and OoT's map sometime... My theory was originally based off their positioning.

[Hero of Slime]

That is a really good explaination of a split timeline. However I dissagree with the whole rotating maps thing. I don't see how the maps could be off, we are always told in the games which directions are west, north, east, and south. It is Fan****ing to say that they are off.

Edited by The Zol, 28 April 2006 - 05:50 PM.

[Crazy Penguin]

Sounds reasonable enough, but I don't think Navi Trackers is in continuity - The King of Red Lions is one of the navigators.

Oh, and The Minish Cap uses the same "Hylian" language of The Wind Waker and Four Swords Adventures, not that of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. Does that have any signficance on its chronology? Maybe, maybe not. Just throwing it out there.

Edited by Crazy Penguin, 28 April 2006 - 06:50 PM.

[Rogue Cucco]

*Jumps out from above*

I'm back!

I don't like equating OoT with the IW, and I don't like splits, but I suppose I'll have to live with that... Personally I think that a single timeline without the need for explaining the differences between OoT and the IW is a lot simpler.

Thanks for your input, but I'm pretty sure this means that Hyrule has to be 'found' or 'reused' after TWW, and I really wouldn't want that. It would be just WAY to anticlimatic for me. I don't even really want to play in a new Hyrule- I'd think it'd be cool for half the Zeldas to be Celtic-ish land based adventures with rolling green fields and half to be Greek-ish sea based adventures . Or maybe just a slightly tropical continent, just something different than the traditional ones and more TWW-ish. But, I guess what we like doesn't really matter.

By the way, no offense whatsoever, but your timeline theory? Whoa. Just whoa. That's the most unique I've ever seen. I guess that's a good thing!

I assume you put Sleeping Zelda after Oracles (since the triforce is whole there) - this doesn't gel with the information about her being the "first generation" Zelda who started the naming tradition. Ideally, it should come as the first event in the timeline.

Ack, I forgot that whole thing. I haven't learned a whole lot about SZ, so I might come back some day later and throw in my 2 cents, but for now, I'll assume the manual can't be too strict. Of course, I know just about nothing of it.

You have FSA in between OoT and ALttP, yet you think OoT is the IW? How do the Ganons match up? Ganon doesnlt leave the SR between IW and ALttP, so is the FSA one a seperate one who's alive at the same time as the other Ganon?

Ummmm... well... you see... of course... *thinks* Well, Ganondorf was sealed into the Evil Realm in OOT with the Triforce of Power. He then must get out as a child, get the Trident of Power, become evil, and return to the Evil Realm. That's all we know, right? I guess the point I want to make is, for a 'accurate' theory, you have to leave a lot into question. (On second thought, that's what a theory is. Urghh...) Maybe he died and was reincarnated. Maybe he possesed a Gerudo like him and rejoined like what the King of Red Lions did in TWW. I don't know... but, those are the two most reasonable, but I don't like Occam's Razor. Never assume anything. (Hypocrite )

I really need to make a comparison between the ALttP Dark World warps and OoT's map sometime... My theory was originally based off their positioning.

Aww, awesome! I noticed this when playing all by myself! It seemed so obvious, and has to be intentional, to a degree. The first warp is around the ToH, and to the east of Spectacle Rock. With davegone's tilt hypothesis thingy, this warp correlates to where the five Sages stood around at the Adult end of OOT. Turtle rock wasn't in OOT, so ignored. The Lake Hylia warp is pretty much right were the OOT Water Temple warp point was! The desert warp is in a little grass- covered corner in the Desert, which remined me of the NW area with the collosus where the Spirit Temple warp was. It was sort of elevated also and sorta square shaped. Coincidence?

That is a really good explaination of a split timeline. However I dissagree with the whole rotating maps thing. I don't see how the maps could be off, we are always told in the games which directions are west, north, east, and south. It is Fan-whatever-ing to say that they are off.

Thanks. As for the whole rotating maps thing, I've got a link to that article I was talking about. Worth a read- completely changes your perspective of how Hyrule is set up, and the kind of continuity the developers were aiming for even in the first five games. http://www.zeldalege...n=article_18_p3

So, we have conflicting cardinal directions- well, at least when it comes to the sun's direction in the real world and Hyrule's directions. The sun would presumably move East to West-I always forget which way-but this conflicts with the bird statue compass in Kakariko in ALTTP. So, while TMC 180 degrees off maybe fan-whatever-ing, the idea isn't.

Sounds reasonable enough, but I don't think Navi Trackers is in continuity - The King of Red Lions is one of the navigators.

Oh, and The Minish Cap uses the same "Hylian" language of The Wind Waker and Four Swords Adventures, not that of Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. Does that have any signficance on its chronology? Maybe, maybe not. Just throwing it out there.

Thanks, I didn't know that about NT. I'll get rid of it- no SB anyways, so out with NT. As for Hylian, I think that's in the realm of programming- They thought of an actual language in TWW and decided this is it. I've thought that OOT's is just random scribbling. Maybe I was wrong. Anyways, I'm under the impression that if they remade OOT, they'd bring in 'real' Hylian- unless they change it again.

So, thanks again everyone! I'm happy to sorta contribute.

*dives into Lake Hylia*

...

Edit: Hey, why am I a baka? I know what that means!

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 28 April 2006 - 11:57 PM.

[Crazy Penguin]

I've thought that OOT's is just random scribbling.

Nope, the characters could be translated to Japanese. Speaking of which, does anyone have the Hylian language guides that were on omniglot.com? The site seems to be dead, and the images won't load when looked through archive.org.

[SOAP]

Finally! Someone else that takes geography as a part of timeline theorizing. Most people here don't even consider Hyrule's geography at all. Though in all fairness that might hvae changed since I've last been here.

I don't agree with rotating the map, (at least not thta drastically) but I do agree that the stone structure in OoT's Hyrule feild might be left of Hyrule Town. Though a part of me wants to believe TMC's map is just a closeup of the Hyrule Castle Town Area of OoT due to HT's closeness to Hyrule Castle and it's simmilarity in name to Hyrule Castle Town. But I'm smarter than that. It would help if you provided pictures also.

I also see simmilarities between the TMC map and the original LOZ map.

[Hero of Slime]

See the compass rose. That shows where the compass directions are. You can not argue against that. As for the other games with out maps like this one, just talk to the characters, atleat one of them will refer to a compass direction. When you do that that you will see that all games follow the same pattern: Up=North, Left=West, Down=South,
Right=East.

[Showsni]

Of course, magnetic North and South shift on their own over a long period of time, and don't correlate exactly to maps anyway - all the "add for mag, get rid for grid" or whatever it is. And aren't they meant to be swapping over soon in real life?

[Rogue Cucco]

Also, I was wondering, is it just me, or are the Lost Woods not so much a place as a type of place? Like, any magical wooded area where you can get confused are the Lost Woods? I think those Dekus is FSA said something along the lines of, Ganon said he'd let the Forest spread to cover the entire world, or something of that nature. So, I think this explains the multiple Lost Woods things.

Anyways... bye!

Edited by Rogue Cucco, 11 February 2007 - 05:18 PM.