11 replies to this topic

[Chaltab]

Just for the sake of having something to contribute, I've decided to post a defense for The Minish Cap being set in ancient times before Ocarina of Time and the rest of the games.

First, I've not read the manga, and I only consider the games canon when the manga differs on a major plot poin.

-No Master Sword. Nobody seems to have even heard of it, leaving me to believe it has not yet been forged. The only sacred blade in this time period is the Picor Sword, which later becomes the Four Sword. This also means that, obivously it must happen before FS and FSA.

-Vaati is still humanoid in this game until the very end. He does not become the demon from the Four Swords games until he siphons Light Force from Zelda. In other words, this seems to be his first appearance.

-Hyrule is a united Kingdom. There is no mention of a recent or impending war, so it's not in the same era as OoT.

-The Triforce seems to be completely unkown to the people. The only powers known are the magic of the Picori and the Light Force, which is said to be a genetic trait. Since the quest for the Triforce is said to be what started the Pre-OoT war, then it follows that lack of knowledge of it means it probably happens a good bit before OoT. (Long enough for Lon Lon Ranch to move from the east to the west side of Hyrule field, at least)

-Lon Lon Ranch exists, which implies that it takes place prior to the Flood. The Malon and Talon may be the generation before those of Ocarina of Time.

-The Gorons imply early in the timeline. The tendency towards species in Hyrule seems to be towards corruption and extinction (Zoras, to River Zoras, to LoZ's 'Zolas' not to mention the complete lack of Gorons in ALttP, LoZ and AoL.) The fact that Minish are well known is also evidence for it being early.

-The Hyrule Castle and Town are in very similar locations to where they are in Ocarina of Time. There is no Death Mountain, but the mountain near the castle could be what eventually becomes called that, OR it could be that Death Mountain is simply farther north still.

Evidence Against?

-The location of Lake Hylia/Lake Hyrule is a thorn in the placement of games throughotu the series. However, it's hard to say it matters when Nintendo decides to change it's location on a whim with every new release.

-Tingle. More than any other reason for hating him, this is the worst. He tends to ruin the placement of games if you take him literally. The 'extra' colored Tingles appear only in Hyrule, even though he originally appeared in Termina. It seems like more than anything Tingle is an Anomaly that can't be taken into account since he appears hundreds of years apart in two different universes.

Well, what do you all think?

[MikePetersSucks]

I've long since ceased using geography for debate, since it's changed willy-nilly for gameplay just like in Mario or something, and Tingle could simple reincarnate like alllllllllll the other damn characters.

[Hero of Slime]

While I agree on placing TMC first in a Timeline, I do not think that the game creators considered any of that while making TMC. A games geography can not really be counted as very solid evidence since the creators design the map to go along with the games scenario and gameplay rather than the overall timeline. I don't really see the Tingle thing is evidence against TMC being first since characters are reused all the time in Zelda.

[mohammedali]

Just for the sake of having something to contribute, I've decided to post a defense for The Minish Cap being set in ancient times before Ocarina of Time and the rest of the games.

I see good reason to put TMC before OoT, and have done so in one of my 2 timeline ideas. However, I also feel that OoT before TMC makes more sence in other ways. I'm going to cover the points you made first.

-No Master Sword. Nobody seems to have even heard of it, leaving me to believe it has not yet been forged. The only sacred blade in this time period is the Picor Sword, which later becomes the Four Sword. This also means that, obivously it must happen before FS and FSA.

The MS was lost for a long time. The fact it is not seen doesn't count for anything.

-Vaati is still humanoid in this game until the very end. He does not become the demon from the Four Swords games until he siphons Light Force from Zelda. In other words, this seems to be his first appearance.

As Vaati isn't in OoT at all, he could have happily come afterwards.

-Hyrule is a united Kingdom. There is no mention of a recent or impending war, so it's not in the same era as OoT.

I think this is the main point. Wasn't the point of the feirce war that Hyrule was united? If so, then it being a kingdom in TMC suggest TMC comes after OoT if anything.

-The Triforce seems to be completely unkown to the people. The only powers known are the magic of the Picori and the Light Force, which is said to be a genetic trait. Since the quest for the Triforce is said to be what started the Pre-OoT war, then it follows that lack of knowledge of it means it probably happens a good bit before OoT. (Long enough for Lon Lon Ranch to move from the east to the west side of Hyrule field, at least)

This was also discussed in OoT, where it was decleared that very few people knew of the Triforce if any.

-Lon Lon Ranch exists, which implies that it takes place prior to the Flood. The Malon and Talon may be the generation before those of Ocarina of Time.

The ranch could still suggest it comes after OoT. Also, given that both OoT characters AND WW characters are present in the game, it seems to me that the game comes inbetween them.

-The Gorons imply early in the timeline. The tendency towards species in Hyrule seems to be towards corruption and extinction (Zoras, to River Zoras, to LoZ's 'Zolas' not to mention the complete lack of Gorons in ALttP, LoZ and AoL.) The fact that Minish are well known is also evidence for it being early.
-The Hyrule Castle and Town are in very similar locations to where they are in Ocarina of Time. There is no Death Mountain, but the mountain near the castle could be what eventually becomes called that, OR it could be that Death Mountain is simply farther north still.

Both points do nothing to suggest it comes before OoT. It could work just as well if OoT came first.

Evidence Against?
-The location of Lake Hylia/Lake Hyrule is a thorn in the placement of games throughotu the series. However, it's hard to say it matters when Nintendo decides to change it's location on a whim with every new release.
-Tingle. More than any other reason for hating him, this is the worst. He tends to ruin the placement of games if you take him literally. The 'extra' colored Tingles appear only in Hyrule, even though he originally appeared in Termina. It seems like more than anything Tingle is an Anomaly that can't be taken into account since he appears hundreds of years apart in two different universes.
Well, what do you all think?

Don't worry too much about Tingle, though he is another hint towards this being between OoT and WW. Nice post BTW, but I still favour OoT - TMC more.

Mohammed Ali

[Chaltab]

Many good points, Ali.

I would like to point out that in a single timeline, Hyrule Castle would be destroyed if The Minish Cap came after OoT, but since you're timeline is spilt, it doesn't affect the assessment for you.

As for the war prior to Ocarina, my impression was that the tribes were fighting BECAUSE of the Triforce, and the unseen King of the OoT era reunited them. Then again, I haven't played that part of Ocarina of Time in a while, so I'm not certain on the exact dialogue.

Edited by Chaltab, 25 April 2006 - 09:04 PM.

[MikePetersSucks]

Lol for rebuilding castles.

[Chaltab]

Lol for rebuilding castles.

Ah, but The Wind Waker made it clear the castle was rebuilt in the cneter of Hyrule. Ganon's Tower still stood in the north.

[Hero of Slime]

Ganon's Tower was destroyed at the end of OoT, the tower stood during TWW was built some after OoT. And How do you know Ganon's Tower is north of Hyrule Castle in TWW, Link is never given a map?

Edited by The Zol, 26 April 2006 - 11:40 PM.

[Chaltab]

Ganon's Tower was destroyed at the end of OoT, the tower stood during TWW was built some after OoT. And How do you know Ganon's Tower is north of Hyrule Castle in TWW, Link is never given a map?

Er... Good point. I had just assumed this was the case due to the fact that Ganon says that "here" he as again gathered those with the crests. Obiviously it's not "here" as in the same tower, so what could it mean but "here in the same place"??

Edited by Chaltab, 27 April 2006 - 05:02 PM.

[Fatgoron]

The TotGs' main tower section is located at the north part of the "ring" through which one must enter to gain access to it. IIRC, Link enters the glowing circle facing north.
Assuming the boat doesn't rotate on Link's descent, Link should be facing north when he arrives at the castle, which would put Ganon's tower roughly north,north-east of the castle by my reckoning.

[Hero of Slime]

But the entrance of Hyrule Caslte has always been on the southern side.

[SOAP]

Not in AoL.

Doesn't KoRL rotate just before descends into the ring of light? Or just before he lands in the pool?

Anyways, taking a good look at the surrounding area (which is actually difficult even with Aryll's telescope) I'd say the landscape is very simmilar to that of ALttP. The Castle is surrounded by a great moat. Assuming it's the same castle from aLttP, there's also a river that empties into the moat from the North East, two mountains near each other to the north which could easily be the Death Mountain Range. That would put Ganon's Castle to the west actually, where Kakariko should be. Actually comparinf it to FSA it corresponds to the Temple of Darkness which seems to be the center of a Ganon worshipping cult. Hmmm...