181 replies to this topic

[mohammedali]

One of the most ignored aspects of the Zelda timeline has to be Four Swords. The games are usually shoved anywhere, and no one seems to be all that fussy on where they go. Hence, I felt a thread was needed to look into the games in more detail.

Four Swords Adventure

When: It seem to me that this game happens around the time of OoT (between Child and Adult OoT). The way I see this happening is that it occurs after a timeline split in the child timeline. Below are factors for why I believe it happens at this time.

1) We see the owl, Kaebora Gaebora, who we know from OoT suggesting that it is the same time period.
2) We see a young Ganondorf who has spent his life with his tribe similar to the backround we have of Ganondorf from OoT.
3) Dampe (who we see alive in Child OoT, but dead in Adult OoT) is still alive.
4) Gerudos are not seen as evil at this time, nor is Ganondorf which would work with the alligence we see Ganondorf swear to the king.

The above strongly suggests FSA is set during OoT Links lifetime (between Child and Adult), as characters such as Dampe are still around, and the background seems to fit. The next question is what factors need to be considered...


Exactly When: So we seem to have a vague idea of when FSA happens. i.e. around the time of OoT. However we can find out more specifically if we look at some of the other quotes.

1) The Darkworld exists suggesting that Ganon has tainted it already.
2) Ganon is refered to as the "King of Darkness", a title he was given when he recieved the Triforce.
N.B. He is called the King of Darkness by the Deku Nuts way before he is called the King of Darkness by the inscription on the Trident. In anycase, there is no reason to believe he was given this title in the game. He seems to have had it from before.

These 2 points seem to suggest that this is after Ganon touched the Triforce as it was at this point that he gained the title of King of Darkness, and that the Dark World was created. This works well with the ending of OoT, where Link comes back to a past where he still has the ToC and hence Ganon had split the Triforce already.


Which Timeline: This is where the theory has to fit with what we currently believe to hold true. For a split timeline it is generally accepted that WW occurs after the adult timeline, and aLttP occurs after the child timeline. If that were the case then FSA would have to happen before aLttP. Let's see what matches up between the two.

1) There are 'Knights of Hyrule' that guard 'jewels' of Hyrule. This could be seen to match the statement in aLttP about a time when the Knights would guard the pendants (though it is not a very important point).
2) Seven Maidens in Crystal Prisons just like they were in aLttP. More a similarity than a point, but worth mentioning. It seems as though sacrificing maiderns like this was the done thing in this timeline;
3) Ganon attains the Trident in FSA which matches up to him having it in aLttP perfectly.
4) The fact that aLttP has a temple of Four Swords in the SR links up well and could serve as a link between Ganon being sealed in the FS, and him being placed into the SR.


Fitting Together: So it works with the specific timeline as well. Hence, it seems to me that FSA could feasably be part of the IW spoken about in the aLttP BS. The events would happen as follows.

1) OoT Child (Ganon gets the Triforce)
2) FSA (Ganon is sealed in the FS)
3) Rest of IW (How Ganons forces kill the Knights and Ganon gets trapped in the SR)


Implications: If I understand correctly, I believe that placing FSA here would mean that FS would come (shortly) before it, and TMC before that. Hence, either FS is around the time of early OoT or before, and TMC is way before OoT. This goes against my original theory of TMC being after OoT, but this possibility has to be explored more than my timeline has to be reserved.


Other Points: There are a few other points that I need some clarification on as I haven't played the game (just read the Quote FAQ). These should help make the placing more stable. Please expand on the points below.

1) The Palace of Winds still exists, and is stated as being created by Vaati. Was it really created by Vaati, and does that work with TMC (I can't remember)
2) There is a bird at Death Mountain that resembles the bird that troubled the Rutos in WW. Is it confirmed to be the same bird?

Please post any comments. Avoid stuff like "I don't like your idea because it goes against my timeline". If you have a reason it doesn't work it should be based on canon facts and not personal opinion. Look forward to hearing other peoples opinion on this.

Kindest Regards,
Mohammed Ali

[MikePetersSucks]

NICE!

[Mad Scrub]

NICE INDEED! Might I add there was no need to use the Blade of Evils Bane. Another connection to the IW. However, in the IW Ganon couldn't return to Light World after he had touched the Triforce. Then again, only Link, Zelda, the Knights of Hyrule and the Maidens see Ganon. So does this mean when Ganon gets sealed inside the FS he is also sealed inside the Dark World too? Then whilst in Dark World since he is now in possession of the Trident of Evil and is pure evil he can touch the whole Triforce? You know it is strange how the last thing you see in FSA is the Triforce above a doorway.

Edited by Mad Scrub, 06 December 2005 - 06:48 PM.

[Fatgoron]

How do you account for the massive geographical changes between OoT [child era] and FSA?

How do the Gerudos change from a very private and insular people, into a welcoming and well adjusted society in such a short period of time?

[coinilius]

Dampe isn't a very good point, though, since Dampe is also in TMC - he can just as wasily be alive in FSA because he's a different person named Dampe, like he is in TMC.

[spunky-monkey]

TMC comes before FS and FSA. Its where the Four Sword is created and Vaati first appears...yeah everything sounds okay here.

OoS/OoA probably comes after TMC as well though I'm not 100% sure.

1) The Palace of Winds still exists, and is stated as being created by Vaati. Was it really created by Vaati, and does that work with TMC (I can't remember)
2) There is a bird at Death Mountain that resembles the bird that troubled the Rutos in WW. Is it confirmed to be the same bird?

1) Vaati most likely took it over upon his return to Hyrule.
2) They are both "Helmaroc Kings", but they are not the same bird.

Edited by RICKY, 07 December 2005 - 05:01 AM.

[Hero of Legend]

WRONG! (Get the joke? )

Hehehe... As you might understand, I disagree. Now to point out the flaws in your theory...

One of the most ignored aspects of the Zelda timeline has to be Four Swords. The games are usually shoved anywhere, and no one seems to be all that fussy on where they go. Hence, I felt a thread was needed to look into the games in more detail.

Indeed, far to many people ignore the FS games. I, on the other hand, find them very important since I use them to explain Ganon's return after TWW, as it is stated that he is REBORN in FSA. Thus, he is NOT the original Ganon.

When: It seem to me that this game happens around the time of OoT (between Child and Adult OoT). The way I see this happening is that it occurs after a timeline split in the child timeline.

That is somewhat impossible as FSA does not feature the same Link and Zelda as OoT. Naturally there are many more things that makes this idea extremely farfetched, but I will not go into them now.

1) We see the owl, Kaebora Gaebora, who we know from OoT suggesting that it is the same time period.
2) We see a young Ganondorf who has spent his life with his tribe similar to the backround we have of Ganondorf from OoT.
3) Dampe (who we see alive in Child OoT, but dead in Adult OoT) is still alive.
4) Gerudos are not seen as evil at this time, nor is Ganondorf which would work with the alligence we see Ganondorf swear to the king.

1) So, it is impossible for a character to return in a latter game without bieng the same person (Despite the fact that we know they do)?
2) So? That proves nothing.
3) *Points to above*
4) Correct. Therefore it is impossible for FSA to be anywhere nere OoT as the people in OoT know that they are evil. Besides, the Gerudo are GOOD in FSA (Something they accidentally became at the end of "Adult-OoT").

1) The Darkworld exists suggesting that Ganon has tainted it already.
2) Ganon is refered to as the "King of Darkness", a title he was given when he recieved the Triforce.
N.B. He is called the King of Darkness by the Deku Nuts way before he is called the King of Darkness by the inscription on the Trident. In anycase, there is no reason to believe he was given this title in the game. He seems to have had it from before.

1) Yes, FSA is after OoT.
2) Wrong. If you had played FSA you might have understood that Ganon got the Trident BEFORE the game started. It is also stated that Ganondorf was also a normal man until he got the Trident and became the King of Darkness.

Face it, there are two origins for Ganon (Although FSA cannot be the true origin. Where would the Trident's powers have come from if that was the case?). Why is this? Because there are two Ganons.

This works well with the ending of OoT, where Link comes back to a past where he still has the ToC and hence Ganon had split the Triforce already.

The Triforce is never mentioned in FSA, and what little we see of it hints that it is NOT split, and not in Ganon's possession either.

1) There are 'Knights of Hyrule' that guard 'jewels' of Hyrule. This could be seen to match the statement in aLttP about a time when the Knights would guard the pendants (though it is not a very important point).
2) Seven Maidens in Crystal Prisons just like they were in aLttP. More a similarity than a point, but worth mentioning. It seems as though sacrificing maiderns like this was the done thing in this timeline;
3) Ganon attains the Trident in FSA which matches up to him having it in aLttP perfectly.
4) The fact that aLttP has a temple of Four Swords in the SR links up well and could serve as a link between Ganon being sealed in the FS, and him being placed into the SR.

I can't argue with this...

Fitting Together: So it works with the specific timeline as well. Hence, it seems to me that FSA could feasably be part of the IW spoken about in the aLttP BS. The events would happen as follows.

1) OoT Child (Ganon gets the Triforce)
2) FSA (Ganon is sealed in the FS)
3) Rest of IW (How Ganons forces kill the Knights and Ganon gets trapped in the SR)

When you put it that way it sounds like my theory, although I place TWW between OoT and FSA. Also, Ganon did not have the Triforce in FSA. At least as far as we know.

If I understand correctly, I believe that placing FSA here would mean that FS would come (shortly) before it, and TMC before that. Hence, either FS is around the time of early OoT or before, and TMC is way before OoT. This goes against my original theory of TMC being after OoT, but this possibility has to be explored more than my timeline has to be reserved.

I would say that FS and FSA has the same Link, as such the games take place within a few years from each other. However, this is only my opinion, so you can do whatever you want.

1) The Palace of Winds still exists, and is stated as being created by Vaati. Was it really created by Vaati, and does that work with TMC (I can't remember)

The Palace of Winds was in TMC, and it was created by the Wind Tribe. Vaati must have conquered it sometime between TMC and FS. The Palace was dependent on Vaati in FSA as it crumbles after his defeat.

2) There is a bird at Death Mountain that resembles the bird that troubled the Rutos in WW. Is it confirmed to be the same bird?

Not any more than all the other returning bosses.

Edited by Hero of Legend, 07 December 2005 - 08:29 AM.

[mohammedali]

NICE INDEED! Might I add there was no need to use the Blade of Evils Bane. Another connection to the IW. However, in the IW Ganon couldn't return to Light World after he had touched the Triforce. Then again, only Link, Zelda, the Knights of Hyrule and the Maidens see Ganon. So does this mean when Ganon gets sealed inside the FS he is also sealed inside the Dark World too? Then whilst in Dark World since he is now in possession of the Trident of Evil and is pure evil he can touch the whole Triforce? You know it is strange how the last thing you see in FSA is the Triforce above a doorway.

Thanks MPS and Mad Scrub. As for Ganon and the Dark World - I was thinking that he gets sealed in the four swords which ends up in the SR (which we see from the Temple of Four Swords in aLttP/FS). As for Ganon coming back after he touched the Triforce, this was left open in aLttP BS, but it is implied that he did come back and reak havoc. Hence it works with FSA.

How do you account for the massive geographical changes between OoT [child era] and FSA?

It depends how you look at the map. If angled correctly you have 1 of 2 things happening. Either the sandy area hits the part of the Desert we can't see on OoT map, or all of the map other than Death Mountain, Hyrule Castle, and the greenary below is the only part that is common with OoT map (the rest is all 'above' and hence not seen in OoT map). Coincidently, wasn't there a pyramid in OoT as well? Not saying they have to be the same one, but it is quite interesting.

How do the Gerudos change from a very private and insular people, into a welcoming and well adjusted society in such a short period of time?

Well Child OoT was the point where the Gerudos had just formed an alliance with the Hyrulians and so if this is slightly after, perhaps it explains why they are more forth comming. Also, the reason they were less forth coming before was because some pervy carpenters had just snuck into their training grounds.

Dampe isn't a very good point, though, since Dampe is also in TMC - he can just as wasily be alive in FSA because he's a different person named Dampe, like he is in TMC.

Good point. I had considered this, but I thought it was worth a mention.

Hehehe... As you might understand, I disagree. Now to point out the flaws in your theory...
Indeed, far to many people ignore the FS games. I, on the other hand, find them very important since I use them to explain Ganon's return after TWW, as it is stated that he is REBORN in FSA. Thus, he is NOT the original Ganon.

He could well be the 'original' Ganon. Just because Zelda calls him an ancient evil reborn (in the English version might I add - we don't know the exact phrase used in the Jap version) - it doesn't mean that this Ganon has to be different to the Ganon we see in OoT.

That is somewhat impossible as FSA does not feature the same Link and Zelda as OoT. Naturally there are many more things that makes this idea extremely farfetched, but I will not go into them now.

Why do we know this has to be a different Zelda and Link?

1) So, it is impossible for a character to return in a latter game without bieng the same person (Despite the fact that we know they do)?
2) So? That proves nothing.
3) *Points to above*
4) Correct. Therefore it is impossible for FSA to be anywhere nere OoT as the people in OoT know that they are evil. Besides, the Gerudo are GOOD in FSA (Something they accidentally became at the end of "Adult-OoT").

You haven't addressed why this theory is wrong at all. All you're saying is that it's not definate despite numerous similarities. You're right that it's not definate, but the similarities could suggest a link. On point 4, the Gerudos don't 'become good' at the end of Adult OoT - it's just that some of them (Ganondorf and Twinrova) were bad and played major roles. As a child, the only thing we see of the Gerudos is they don't like trespassers which is fair play IMO.

1) Yes, FSA is after OoT.
2) Wrong. If you had played FSA you might have understood that Ganon got the Trident BEFORE the game started. It is also stated that Ganondorf was also a normal man until he got the Trident and became the King of Darkness.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that he may have had this title from before (i.e. from when he touched the Triforce). In any case, we know it happens after OoT, but before someone named Ganondorf could even be concieved as a bad guy. If this was a long time after OoT, they would have linked him to Ganondorf in the IW.

Face it, there are two origins for Ganon (Although FSA cannot be the true origin. Where would the Trident's powers have come from if that was the case?). Why is this? Because there are two Ganons.

Think about it. You are saying that FSA comes after OoT, but at a time where Ganondorf is seen as a good guy until he shows everyone otherwise. It makes no sense. If there are 2 origins, then it would suggest that FSA is a gaidern timeline and not related to OoT. Otherwise, the storyline would be rediculous.

The Triforce is never mentioned in FSA, and what little we see of it hints that it is NOT split, and not in Ganon's possession either.

If it's never mentioned, then it could be anywhere. Hence to suggest it has already split sounds as feasable as any other theory.

Mohammed Ali

[Mad Scrub]

Originally Posted by mohammedali
Why do we know this has to be a different Zelda and Link?

Because the same Link has never been in more than two titles in a row.

What about Zunari's or whatever they're called? They weren't even around in OoT?

Edited by Mad Scrub, 07 December 2005 - 06:43 PM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

It's a pretty well thought out theory. I sometimes thought of FSA being prior to OOT with the Fierce Wars happening in between the two. Your idea is a bit different since you literally have FSA happening when Link returns to past--where as mine is before any event related to OOT happens. Keep in mind I don't really stick with this theory--it's just something I ponder upon from time to time. However, I do not think FSA occurs at the time Link returns to the past.

1) As we know, Ganon needed to find a way into the Sacred Realm/Dark World in OOT, so that he may acquire the Triforce. Child Link, of course provided Ganon (indirectly) a way into the Sacred Realm. Lets assume Ganon is still around when Child Link returns to the past--Ganon still doesn't have away into the Sacred Realm--so how is he able to do this?:

(FSA)I am the Knight of Hyrule
charged with guarding the
red royal jewel.

Hear now the doom of the
knights. We were bested by
a foe with a mighty weapon.

He cast us into the Dark
World, where we and the
jewels were lost in shadow.

Ganon didn't have the power to send people into the Dark World in OOT's past, otherwise he just would've sent himself there without waiting on Link and he could've been touched the Triforce. One could say that when Link returns to the past, Ganon's plans are foiled for a short time, and then he later acquires such power, but before this happens, the Triforce is move elsewhere. However that wouldn't float well since:

2.) When Link first saw Dark Link in FSA he would've remembered fighting him back in the alternate future (Links was an adult in OOT when he fought Dark Link on the water level). Link would've known right then and there that Ganon was behind all this. Instead he doesn't find out until later that Ganon is behind everything. Plus, when the Deku scrubs and Gerudos mentioned Ganon he still takes it all in as if he doesn't know about Ganon.

3.) Also (for those of you who do not think the ToC mark on child Link at very end of OOT was a glitch), where is that mark in FSA or on the promo art? (Like the promo art for TP and Oracles show the mark). Also, where is it in MM? I think it's safe to say that was a mistake or something overlooked, but really that point is moot to the rebuttal of the topic at hand, but the point wouldn't be moot if that mark wasn't a mistake.

[SOAP]

I used to have this very same theory ( I placed FSA between OoT and MM to explain how he met Malon all over again and got Epona in time for MM) but I threw away that theory a long time ago since by all accounts, it seemed like this was this particular Link's first encounter with Ganon and Zelda talks of Ganon as if he were from ancient times.

I still don't see how FSA is before OoT. Unless you believe in multiple Ganon(dorfs) or something...

[spunky-monkey]

Also, FSA seems to be connected to ALttP, because their Hyrules are nearly identical, and FSA explains how Ganon gets the Trident he uses in ALttP, so, I'm gonna put FSA between MM and ALttP, if you believe in the double timeline (which you should as it was confirmed again, but I don't want to start another argument about that) or between TWW and ALttP if you believe in the single timeline.

You got a really good point there. On the GBA version of ALttP there's the extra Four Sword level with Shadow Link in it as well...even though Ganon's wish (the Dark World) was undone when Link defeated him, it's still a good theory. Maybe LA happens after ALttP and before FSA as well?

[FDL]

This isn't as deep or thought out as what everyone else has said but I really think FSA is the IW of LTTP. Everything matches up perfectly, IMO. [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people say OoT has to be the IW but I don't agree.

Edited by Fierce Deity Link, 08 December 2005 - 09:58 AM.

[Neon Z]

I used to have this very same theory ( I placed FSA between OoT and MM to explain how he met Malon all over again and got Epona in time for MM) but I threw away that theory a long time ago since by all accounts, it seemed like this was this particular Link's first encounter with Ganon and Zelda talks of Ganon as if he were from ancient times.

Actually, Ganon isn't really stated to be from ancient times. The way that that statement was worded, it sounds like Ganon could be the rebirth of the ancient demon, it doesn't have to mean that Ganon was the ancient demon himself. Just look at Minish Cap's intro.

We see an ancient Ganon-looking demon fighting against an hero, however, the hero doesn't seem to be any known Link (he lacks the cap), and that demon is never called Ganon. If Ganon is that demon reborn, the statement clearly fits him well.

[Tri-Enforcer]

This isn't as deep or thought out as what everyone else has said but I really think FSA is the IW of LTTP. Everything matches up perfectly, IMO. [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people say OoT has to be the IW but I don't agree.

In the IW Ganon is sealed inside the Dark World--not the Four Sword, like he is at the end of FSA. The IW involved Ganon seizing the Triforce, then invading Hyrule--none of this happens in FSA. Also, the MS is at least mentioned in the IW, but in FSA no one mentions it--including the maidens, Zelda and the Knights. Of course there wouldn't be any need of it since FSA doesn't involve Ganon having the Triforce--so no need of the evil repelling blade. FSA is clearly not the IW. I'd buy into the IW being OOT before I even consider it being FSA.

You got a really good point there. On the GBA version of ALttP there's the extra Four Sword level with Shadow Link in it as well

That level is just a bonus or an incentive for playing LttP on the GBA. I wouldn't play too much into it's significance to the story.

I still don't see how FSA is before OoT. Unless you believe in multiple Ganon(dorfs) or something...

The only thing that could help this game being prior to OOT is if FSA is explaining how Ganon became the King of Evil and his origins within the Gerudos. Maybe his release from the Four Sword, will indirectly lead into the 'fierce wars' that the Deku Tree spoke of. The only thing about putting FSA before OOT, is that in FSA Ganon can go in and out of the Dark World as he pleased and he can even summon people there (I'm sure he would've been found the Triforce that way. In OOT, the only way he could get in was waiting on Link to pull the MS. As for FSA being between the Adult and Child timelines....definite nah. I already elaborated on this in an earlier post.

[spunky-monkey]

The wars and conflicts that the Deku tree spoke of were all the races of Hyrule fighting each other because they were trying to find the Triforce...this is also the prologue to ALttP as well...history seems to be repeating itself huh?

[mohammedali]

A lot to reply to, so here goes.

Because the same Link has never been in more than two titles in a row.

That's not a reason why they can't be the same, and if you place OoX after aLttP, then the same Link is in 4 games. In any case, this isn't a reason why they can't be the same Link.

What about Zunari's or whatever they're called? They weren't even around in OoT?

Just because we don't see them in OoT, doesn't mean they weren't there. Many people take aLttP BS to be OoT even though aLttP BS never mentions Gorons or Zoras. Doesn't mean they weren't there during the days of aLttP BS (i.e. during OoT).

1) As we know, Ganon needed to find a way into the Sacred Realm/Dark World in OOT, so that he may acquire the Triforce. Child Link, of course provided Ganon (indirectly) a way into the Sacred Realm. Lets assume Ganon is still around when Child Link returns to the past--Ganon still doesn't have away into the Sacred Realm--so how is he able to do this?:

What we know from aLttP BS is that 1. Ganon went to the SR, 2. created the Dark World, 3. reaked havoc on Hyrule, 4. was trapped in the SR. From OoT Child #1 and 2 are done. From FSA we could say #3 is done. From Palace of Four Swords we see the Four Sword (where Ganon was trapped) is in the SR near the Pyramid and hence it seems #4 was done. i.e. all of aLttP BS is accounted for.

Ganon didn't have the power to send people into the Dark World in OOT's past, otherwise he just would've sent himself there without waiting on Link and he could've been touched the Triforce. One could say that when Link returns to the past, Ganon's plans are foiled for a short time, and then he later acquires such power, but before this happens, the Triforce is move elsewhere. However that wouldn't float well since:

2.) When Link first saw Dark Link in FSA he would've remembered fighting him back in the alternate future (Links was an adult in OOT when he fought Dark Link on the water level). Link would've known right then and there that Ganon was behind all this. Instead he doesn't find out until later that Ganon is behind everything. Plus, when the Deku scrubs and Gerudos mentioned Ganon he still takes it all in as if he doesn't know about Ganon.

It is perfectly possible that when Link is sent back to the past, he does not know of the alternate future that he faced in OoT Adult. As that future is not going to happen now, he may not be able to remember doing it as in this timeline he never did it. Hence, Link could be completely oblivious to a Dark Link existing etc.

3.) Also (for those of you who do not think the ToC mark on child Link at very end of OOT was a glitch), where is that mark in FSA or on the promo art? (Like the promo art for TP and Oracles show the mark). Also, where is it in MM? I think it's safe to say that was a mistake or something overlooked, but really that point is moot to the rebuttal of the topic at hand, but the point wouldn't be moot if that mark wasn't a mistake.

The mark is known to only come when near others that possess the Triforce or other special circumstances. That's why Link didn't spot it until Zelda showed it to him when they were close. Hence, you wouldn't see it in FSA, MM or anything else. The mark on TP and OoX Link is different as they are black outlines of the whole Triforce rather than a gold symbol of a specific piece.

I'll read the entire thread later, but for now, I'm sticking with Aonuma, and saying that TMC and FS are the first two games, and they feature separate Links. It's stupid to disregard creator quotes and interviews automatically, unless you can disprove them with in-game evidence, or a more recent interview. And so far, nobody's been able to do that with TMC and FS.

TMC and FS coming first works (and is assumed) with this theory so no complaints there.

Also, FSA seems to be connected to ALttP, because their Hyrules are nearly identical, and FSA explains how Ganon gets the Trident he uses in ALttP, so, I'm gonna put FSA between MM and ALttP, if you believe in the double timeline (which you should as it was confirmed again, but I don't want to start another argument about that) or between TWW and ALttP if you believe in the single timeline.

This theory also suggests that FSA is a prequal to aLttP, and after MM. FSA would take place a short while after MM in this theory, as you suggested.

This isn't as deep or thought out as what everyone else has said but I really think FSA is the IW of LTTP. Everything matches up perfectly, IMO. [img]http://forums.legendsalliance.com/public/ALOT.png[/img] of people say OoT has to be the IW but I don't agree.

I'm saying that OoT is part of aLttP BS but not the IW itself. FSA is in most part the IW.

Actually, Ganon isn't really stated to be from ancient times. The way that that statement was worded, it sounds like Ganon could be the rebirth of the ancient demon, it doesn't have to mean that Ganon was the ancient demon himself. Just look at Minish Cap's intro.

We see an ancient Ganon-looking demon fighting against an hero, however, the hero doesn't seem to be any known Link (he lacks the cap), and that demon is never called Ganon. If Ganon is that demon reborn, the statement clearly fits him well.

I agree completely. This seems to make much more sense to me than there being 2 Ganondorfs that turn into Ganon etc.

In the IW Ganon is sealed inside the Dark World--not the Four Sword, like he is at the end of FSA. The IW involved Ganon seizing the Triforce, then invading Hyrule--none of this happens in FSA. Also, the MS is at least mentioned in the IW, but in FSA no one mentions it--including the maidens, Zelda and the Knights. Of course there wouldn't be any need of it since FSA doesn't involve Ganon having the Triforce--so no need of the evil repelling blade. FSA is clearly not the IW. I'd buy into the IW being OOT before I even consider it being FSA.

If Ganon is sealed in the Four Swords (FSA), and the Four Swords is sealed in the Dark World (aLttP Temple of Four Swords), then it stands to reason that Ganon is sealed in the Dark World.
If we say that this happens after Ganon takes the ToP in OoT, then Ganon taking the Triforce doesn't need to be mentioned in FSA.
Although the MS was mentioned in aLttP BS, it was done so in a way that suggested it wasn't used (though never confirmed either way). Hence, Link not using the MS to beat Ganondorf is completely acceptable for the IW. Hence, FSA can be the main part of the IW, although I agree that it isn't the whole of aLttP BS.

The only thing that could help this game being prior to OOT is if FSA is explaining how Ganon became the King of Evil and his origins within the Gerudos. Maybe his release from the Four Sword, will indirectly lead into the 'fierce wars' that the Deku Tree spoke of. The only thing about putting FSA before OOT, is that in FSA Ganon can go in and out of the Dark World as he pleased and he can even summon people there (I'm sure he would've been found the Triforce that way. In OOT, the only way he could get in was waiting on Link to pull the MS. As for FSA being between the Adult and Child timelines....definite nah. I already elaborated on this in an earlier post.

FSA has to be after OoT, that much is pretty certain. The Dark World exists, Ganon is the King of Evil, and he knows how to get into the SR without Link. Hence, it can't be before OoT.
It also can't be all that much after OoT either, as Ganon is still young and is not even suspected as evil. Everyone thinks he's a nice guy. Hence, it seems to be soon after Child Links return.

Mohammed Ali

[Hero of Legend]

He could well be the 'original' Ganon. Just because Zelda calls him an ancient evil reborn (in the English version might I add - we don't know the exact phrase used in the Jap version) - it doesn't mean that this Ganon has to be different to the Ganon we see in OoT.

So the English version isn't canon anymore? Anyway, Zelda's exact words are:

Ganon... this beast was once of the Gerudo... Once human. He was called Ganondorf!

King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!

Now explain to me how you can be an "ancient demon reborn" who obviously is connected to the Trident (Which accidentally has the power to make you the King of Evil) that has laid in the Pyramid of Power for as long as people remember, and still be the original Ganon (Aka, King of Evil). No. It is clear that Zelda recognises Ganon from a legend or something.

BTW, I wonder, why do you not use FSA to explain the return of Ganon, as the creators most likely intended? You know that Ganon has died more than once. FSA could help solve that problem. Is it because you have this problem with the idea of reincarnation or what?

Why do we know this has to be a different Zelda and Link?

... I was wrong. There is nothing proving it... My error.

You haven't addressed why this theory is wrong at all. All you're saying is that it's not definate despite numerous similarities. You're right that it's not definate, but the similarities could suggest a link.

Why would I try to disprove your theory when I am stating that your "evidence" is null and void? The fact is that there is nothing indicating that FSA is after OoT, but plenty proving the opposite.

On point 4, the Gerudos don't 'become good' at the end of Adult OoT - it's just that some of them (Ganondorf and Twinrova) were bad and played major roles. As a child, the only thing we see of the Gerudos is they don't like trespassers which is fair play IMO.

The Gerudo are thieves in OoT, people are afraid of them. That is not the case in FSA, as seen here.

The Gerudo honor the desert. They are trustworthy and pure of heart. I cannot imagine one of them is the King of Darkness...

They are not afraid to banish Ganondorf when he breaks their laws either. But in OoT they "worship him almost like a God".

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that he may have had this title from before (i.e. from when he touched the Triforce).

I believe that Ganondorf originally got his powers and title from the events of OoT. However, if he died and was reborn in his original form, he would need to regain them again, no?

In any case, we know it happens after OoT, but before someone named Ganondorf could even be concieved as a bad guy. If this was a long time after OoT, they would have linked him to Ganondorf in the IW.

Not if he was forgotten.

Think about it. You are saying that FSA comes after OoT, but at a time where Ganondorf is seen as a good guy until he shows everyone otherwise. It makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense. If the people could forget everything about Hyrule (Including Ganondorf) in TWW, then it is not so unimaginable that they do not remember him if he was gone a few hundred years.

If there are 2 origins, then it would suggest that FSA is a gaidern timeline and not related to OoT. Otherwise, the storyline would be rediculous.

As ridiculous as the idea of multiple Links?

But no, it is not a problem at all. That is because FSA cannot be the first time Ganon appeared. Like I said, someone must have infused the Trident with the Power of Darkness. And as far as we know, only Ganon has that power.

[Doopliss]

I disagree with your theory.

ALttP says Ganon could wish on the Triforce, in that case, it wouldn't have split, but according to your theory, the Triforce is split after Ganon touches the Triforce and his wish is not fulfilled.

The Deku Scrubs talk about Ganon's return in FSA, but there's nothing mentioned about Ganon returning in OoT, actually, Ganon isn't rfered to with that name until he appears in the final battle, so it seems like Ganondorf and Ganon were the same person in OoT and that Ganon wasn't returning from anywhere.

You still haven't solved the problem of the Gerudos being honest people. Their are thieves in OoT before Link's quest starts, and he isn't considered a good person in OoT, actually, Nabooru wants to overthrow him.

That's all I have to say, for now.

[Tri-Enforcer]

It is perfectly possible that when Link is sent back to the past, he does not know of the alternate future that he faced in OoT Adult. As that future is not going to happen now, he may not be able to remember doing it as in this timeline he never did it. Hence, Link could be completely oblivious to a Dark Link existing etc.

Did you even think about this before you replied? Hello...if Link is sent back into the past and he doesn't remember anything, then he may end up doing the same thing he did before or at least Zelda will have him attempt to do the same thing without knowing the consequences. He doesn't forget things when you go back and forth in OOT. Forgetting everything would defeat the purpose of sending Link back. Like I said before, Link would've known about Dark Link and Ganon from the start of FSA, if FSA were between the Child and Adult segments.

From FSA we could say #3 is done. From Palace of Four Swords we see the Four Sword (where Ganon was trapped) is in the SR near the Pyramid and hence it seems #4 was done. i.e. all of aLttP BS is accounted for.

In FSA the Four Sword palace isn't even in the Dark World, it's in the light world--we see this. (I forget you haven't played the game yet or have you?). Like I said before, that level in LttP on GBA, is just an added bonus for playing LttP on the GBA. Also, I said it once and I will say it again, the plot in FSA did not involve the Triforce, however the plot in the IW did involve the Triforce.

Don't say, 'just because it was mentioned doesn't mean it wasn't there or used', that excuse won't work here. Why? People at the time of the IW knew how Ganon rose to power--it was through the Triforce--he made a wish on it--the people knew of this, that's why they searched for a hero to uphold the MS. None of this happens in FSA, no one...not the sages, maidens, knights, or even Zelda searched for a hero to hold the MS. In the IW story it is made clear that Ganon wished upon the Triforce and the people knew of this--this would've been mentioned in FSA.

The mark is known to only come when near others that possess the Triforce or other special circumstances. That's why Link didn't spot it until Zelda showed it to him when they were close. Hence, you wouldn't see it in FSA, MM or anything else. The mark on TP and OoX Link is different as they are black outlines of the whole Triforce rather than a gold symbol of a specific piece.

From the screenshots we see on TP, we can see the Triforce mark on Link, even though no one else is around who has a Triforce. We also see this in AoL. I don't know why but sometimes you could see a a brownish blemish of the the Triforce mark (like in TP and AoL), and the top Triforce symbol glows when it's around another piece of the Triforce. I think it's also like this in TWW.

[mohammedali]

So the English version isn't canon anymore?

When debating about games created in Japan, we take the Japanese over any translation. The reason for this is that the translation is not written or overseen by the storywriter, and hence any deviances from the Japanese in the translation are not endorsed by the writer as far as we are made aware.

Anyway, Zelda's exact words are:
Now explain to me how you can be an "ancient demon reborn" who obviously is connected to the Trident (Which accidentally has the power to make you the King of Evil) that has laid in the Pyramid of Power for as long as people remember, and still be the original Ganon (Aka, King of Evil). No. It is clear that Zelda recognises Ganon from a legend or something.

Look at the quote again.
ZELDA: "Ganon... this beast was once of the Gerudo... Once human. He was called Ganondorf!"
"King of Darkness, ancient demon reborn. The wielder of the trident!!"

The ancient demon reborn *isn't* named, nor necessarily the reason Ganon got the title of King of Darkness. She names Ganon as the Gerudo formaly known as Ganondorf. She says that this 'Ganon' is the 'King of Darkness', and 'ancient demon reborn, and the wielder of the trident. The King of Darkness was a title we saw given to Ganon in Child OoT. Whatever this 'reborn' thing is, it doesn't mean Ganons predisesor was *also* Ganon. It's pure fanfic to assume that this Ganon is another Ganon reborn, especially when we are told that Ganondorf was not connected to evil before FSA.

BTW, I wonder, why do you not use FSA to explain the return of Ganon, as the creators most likely intended? You know that Ganon has died more than once. FSA could help solve that problem. Is it because you have this problem with the idea of reincarnation or what?

I'm trying to see what seems logical, and to say this is how Ganon returned is not logical. I originally assumed it was fine, but after thinking about it, it doesn't add up. Putting FSA here messes up a cool part of my timeline, but as I always say, bend the timeline to fit the facts and not the other way round.

Why would I try to disprove your theory when I am stating that your "evidence" is null and void? The fact is that there is nothing indicating that FSA is after OoT, but plenty proving the opposite.
The Gerudo are thieves in OoT, people are afraid of them. That is not the case in FSA, as seen here.
They are not afraid to banish Ganondorf when he breaks their laws either. But in OoT they "worship him almost like a God".

I never claimed I had evidence, otherwise there would be no debate. To have evidence they are connected would mean it were fact, but I am presenting a theory.
The Gerudos had just signed a pact with Hyrule in OoT. After this, Ganon messed up the world. Not suprising that people aren't too fond of them. However, had Ganon not done that, it's likely they wouldn't have been as feared.
Also, it's only in the adult time (after Ganon has taken over the world), that the Gerudos truely fear Ganon. Hence, him being banished does not seem irregular.

I believe that Ganondorf originally got his powers and title from the events of OoT. However, if he died and was reborn in his original form, he would need to regain them again, no?
Not if he was forgotten.
It makes perfect sense. If the people could forget everything about Hyrule (Including Ganondorf) in TWW, then it is not so unimaginable that they do not remember him if he was gone a few hundred years.
As ridiculous as the idea of multiple Links?

Ganondorf was sealed in a great war. He was seen as truely evil. In FSA, there is no suggestion that Ganondorf could be bad. They didn't even believe that Ganon and Ganondorf could be related, but thought it might be a connection to try because of a lack of other avenues. Even in WW, where all of Hyrule and the majority of it's people have been submersed in water, people *still* remember and dispise Ganon / Ganondorf. Hence, in a game set in Hyrule itself, it's clear that no one evil called Ganondorf or Ganon has existed before. At the same time, the game has to be after Ganon touches the Triforce. They only place it could fit is slighly after OoT Child.

But no, it is not a problem at all. That is because FSA cannot be the first time Ganon appeared. Like I said, someone must have infused the Trident with the Power of Darkness. And as far as we know, only Ganon has that power.

The Trident isn't stated as being the reason why Ganon is called the King of Darkness. Only getting the Triforce has ever been stated as bestowing that title. The 'evil reborn' isn't named. Hence, it is easliy possible that this is the first time Ganon has appeared, even if another evil preceeded him.
It makes no sense to suggest this is a time when no one knows of the 'first' Ganon given that even in WW he is remembered IMO. Hence, it seems to me that FSA is most likely to happen slightly after OoT Child. Ganon is a consistant theme in the Zelda games, and it makes no sense to have no one remember him considering his importance.

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

Did you even think about this before you replied? Hello...if Link is sent back into the past and he doesn't remember anything, then he may end up doing the same thing he did before or at least Zelda will have him attempt to do the same thing without knowing the consequences. He doesn't forget things when you go back and forth in OOT. Forgetting everything would defeat the purpose of sending Link back. Like I said before, Link would've known about Dark Link and Ganon from the start of FSA, if FSA were between the Child and Adult segments.

I agree, there's nothing to prove Link doesn't remember anything, and mohammedali is contradicting himself. Now, he's sayin that the adult timeline was erased.

However, I disagree with you on the Dark Link point. We don't know if Ganon was actually the one who created Dark Link in OoT, then, why would Link relate Dark Link to Ganon?

mohammedali, If you aren't giving evidence, then you aren't presenting a theory, you are presenting a simple hypothesis.

Actually, The Deku says that Ganon is new (as opposed to Vaati, who is called old).

Sorry, I got confused in that part.

Edited by Doopliss, 08 December 2005 - 03:45 PM.

[Neon Z]

The Deku Scrubs talk about Ganon's return in FSA, but there's nothing mentioned about Ganon returning in OoT, actually, Ganon isn't rfered to with that name until he appears in the final battle, so it seems like Ganondorf and Ganon were the same person in OoT and that Ganon wasn't returning from anywhere.

Actually, The Deku says that Ganon is new (as opposed to Vaati, who is called old).

[mohammedali]

ALttP says Ganon could wish on the Triforce, in that case, it wouldn't have split, but according to your theory, the Triforce is split after Ganon touches the Triforce and his wish is not fulfilled.

There is no reason why the Triforce splitting would mean that Ganons wish was not complete. In fact, in aLttP we find out that Ganon wished for the SR to be his, and in OoT it is.

The Deku Scrubs talk about Ganon's return in FSA, but there's nothing mentioned about Ganon returning in OoT, actually, Ganon isn't rfered to with that name until he appears in the final battle, so it seems like Ganondorf and Ganon were the same person in OoT and that Ganon wasn't returning from anywhere.

In WW we see those names used interchangably, so saying Ganon has returned is as good as saying Ganondorf has returned even if not everyone knows they are the same person. It's similar to someone saying Ali has returned, and another person saying Mohammed Ali. Both are the same person even if you didn't make the connection, or if I use one name for a certain 'side' of me.

You still haven't solved the problem of the Gerudos being honest people. Their are thieves in OoT before Link's quest starts, and he isn't considered a good person in OoT, actually, Nabooru wants to overthrow him.

But we see that the Gerudos have *just* made an alliance with Hyrule after the fierce wars. We then see in the adult Links time that the Gerudos (or Ganon at least), abuse that trust and brake the alliance. In FSA it seems the alliance still holds and the Gerudos now command some respect.

Did you even think about this before you replied? Hello...if Link is sent back into the past and he doesn't remember anything, then he may end up doing the same thing he did before or at least Zelda will have him attempt to do the same thing without knowing the consequences. He doesn't forget things when you go back and forth in OOT. Forgetting everything would defeat the purpose of sending Link back. Like I said before, Link would've known about Dark Link and Ganon from the start of FSA, if FSA were between the Child and Adult segments.

Link and Zelda have already screwed that part up. The Triforce has split (hence Link has the ToC still) so they can't make it any worse. I take the seal to have transversed time and hence preventing the same future from occuring, and hence Link doesn't have to remember what his alternate future did (and in all fairness, it makes sence that he doesn't remember).

In FSA the Four Sword palace isn't even in the Dark World, it's in the light world--we see this. (I forget you haven't played the game yet or have you?). Like I said before, that level in LttP on GBA, is just an added bonus for playing LttP on the GBA. Also, I said it once and I will say it again, the plot in FSA did not involve the Triforce, however the plot in the IW did involve the Triforce.

Still haven't played the game, just read the Quote FAQ. However, we do see the Temple that the FS is in is in the DW, and hence, regardless of which world the palace of FS is in in FSA, we see the FS in the DW in aLttP GBA.
As for the Triforce, like I said before, that part of aLttP BS is covered in OoT. The IW itself doesn't mention the Triforce, and that part is covered in FSA IMO.

Don't say, 'just because it was mentioned doesn't mean it wasn't there or used', that excuse won't work here. Why? People at the time of the IW knew how Ganon rose to power--it was through the Triforce--he made a wish on it--the people knew of this, that's why they searched for a hero to uphold the MS. None of this happens in FSA, no one...not the sages, maidens, knights, or even Zelda searched for a hero to hold the MS. In the IW story it is made clear that Ganon wished upon the Triforce and the people knew of this--this would've been mentioned in FSA.

The BS makes no mention of 'people knowing Ganon had the Triforce' at all. It simply says that greedy men went to join Ganons army. FSA even shows greedy Deku Scrubs joining Ganon so it reinforces it. BTW, I'm going by Jap manual, so I don't accept that the people of Hyrule made the MS during aLttP BS perposely for Ganon - the Jap version says something else.
aLttP BS also suggests that they couldn't find the MS at the time as time was short, which *also* works well with FSA.

From the screenshots we see on TP, we can see the Triforce mark on Link, even though no one else is around who has a Triforce. We also see this in AoL. I don't know why but sometimes you could see a a brownish blemish of the the Triforce mark (like in TP and AoL), and the top Triforce symbol glows when it's around another piece of the Triforce. I think it's also like this in TWW.

The Triforce we see in TP, OoX and AoL are not representing 1 piece like WW or OoT. These are 2 different types of symbols. That is why comparing the symbol in OoX with OoT (for example) isn't justified.

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

There is no reason why the Triforce splitting would mean that Ganons wish was not complete. In fact, in aLttP we find out that Ganon wished for the SR to be his, and in OoT it is.

In ALttP, Ganon wished to rule the world, and that turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. The Essence of the Triforce says the Triforce will obey its master until he dies, so then, why would it split?

In WW we see those names used interchangably, so saying Ganon has returned is as good as saying Ganondorf has returned even if not everyone knows they are the same person. It's similar to someone saying Ali has returned, and another person saying Mohammed Ali. Both are the same person even if you didn't make the connection, or if I use one name for a certain 'side' of me.

What I was talking about is that Ganon doesn't seem to have ruled before in OoT, but he apparently has in FSA (why wold the Deku Scrubs have accepted him immediately?), which goes against your theory because you're telling both OoT and FSA have the same past.

But we see that the Gerudos have *just* made an alliance with Hyrule after the fierce wars. We then see in the adult Links time that the Gerudos (or Ganon at least), abuse that trust and brake the alliance. In FSA it seems the alliance still holds and the Gerudos now command some respect.

But we know Ganon's intentions were't to make an alliance, Zelda says so.

Oh, this is turning fancy

[mohammedali]

In ALttP, Ganon wished to rule the world, and that turned the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. The Essence of the Triforce says the Triforce will obey its master until he dies, so then, why would it split?

There are multiple ways to explain this. In any of the explinations, the fact remains that just because the (whole) Triforce will obey it's master, doesn't mean it can't be cheeky and split first. This is a 'problem' that exists with OoT being aLttP BS and not related to FSA, but as I said, it's easily resolved.

What I was talking about is that Ganon doesn't seem to have ruled before in OoT, but he apparently has in FSA (why wold the Deku Scrubs have accepted him immediately?), which goes against your theory because you're telling both OoT and FSA have the same past.

The Deku Scrubs accept him immediately because they are like that. They even said themselves that Vaati is old news almost straight after Ganon is on the scene.

But we know Ganon's intentions were't to make an alliance, Zelda says so.

Sure, but for whatever reason, he couldn't do the same thing he did in OoT and although Ganon was saying it for the hell of it, I believe that the Gerudos actually wanted an alliance. If they had a chance, they would never have let Ganon take over the world in OoT. Like Naburu, they don't like the evil that is Ganon.

Oh, this is turning fancy

I know, isn't it great

Mohammed Ali

[Doopliss]

There are multiple ways to explain this. In any of the explinations, the fact remains that just because the (whole) Triforce will obey it's master, doesn't mean it can't be cheeky and split first. This is a 'problem' that exists with OoT being aLttP BS and not related to FSA, but as I said, it's easily resolved.

Anyway, it's unlikely that the Triforce will split if it has allowed someone to make a ish unless the wish had already been granted. And, how would you explain how the Triforce got back to the Sacred Realm, considering that this theory (yours) is true?

The Deku Scrubs accept him immediately because they are like that. They even said themselves that Vaati is old news almost straight after Ganon is on the scene.

I don't remember exactly, but I think the Scrubs say Ganon has returned, anyway, someone correct me if not. If they said so, then, why is Ganon in OoT not refered too to have returned?

I guess I can agree with the Gerudos thing.

[Hero of Legend]

EDIT:

The quote-tags don't work for some reason...

When debating about games created in Japan, we take the Japanese over any translation. The reason for this is that the translation is not written or overseen by the storywriter, and hence any deviances from the Japanese in the translation are not endorsed by the writer as far as we are made aware.

True, but that is only the case when we have a reason to believe that the English version is incorrect. I would certainly prefer a direct Japanese translation, but until then we must go by what NoA says. Otherwise nothing is canon in the timeline. For example, your precious "no connection" in TWW would mean nothing.

The ancient demon reborn *isn't* named, nor necessarily the reason Ganon got the title of King of Darkness. She names Ganon as the Gerudo formaly known as Ganondorf. She says that this 'Ganon' is the 'King of Darkness', and 'ancient demon reborn, and the wielder of the trident. The King of Darkness was a title we saw given to Ganon in Child OoT. Whatever this 'reborn' thing is, it doesn't mean Ganons predisesor was *also* Ganon. It's pure fanfic to assume that this Ganon is another Ganon reborn, especially when we are told that Ganondorf was not connected to evil before FSA.

It is STATED in the game that the one who obtains the Trident is the King of Darkness. This fact means that the previous owner also was the King of Darkness. And as far as we know, the King of Darkness is Ganon. Why do you think Ganondorf changed his name? Ignoring facts in favour of opinion, like you do, defeats the purpose of a timeline.

Furthermore, do I need to explain what reborn means? Quite simply, it means that he returned from death. Do not change what the game says.

Also, we are not told that Ganon was not connected to evil before FSA. Who is making up fan fiction now?

I'm trying to see what seems logical, and to say this is how Ganon returned is not logical. I originally assumed it was fine, but after thinking about it, it doesn't add up. Putting FSA here messes up a cool part of my timeline, but as I always say, bend the timeline to fit the facts and not the other way round.

Why is it not logical? It's not like we don't know that people survive death in Zelda. Besides, reincarnation has been a fact since OoT. Whatever biased opinion you have does not change that.

I never claimed I had evidence, otherwise there would be no debate. To have evidence they are connected would mean it were fact, but I am presenting a theory.

And I proved your theory to be completely baseless.

The Gerudos had just signed a pact with Hyrule in OoT. After this, Ganon messed up the world. Not suprising that people aren't too fond of them. However, had Ganon not done that, it's likely they wouldn't have been as feared.

Have you ever tried talking to people with the Gerudo Mask? You should... And this is before the townspeople know what Ganondorf is up too.

Also, it's only in the adult time (after Ganon has taken over the world), that the Gerudos truely fear Ganon. Hence, him being banished does not seem irregular.

They say that Gerudos worship Ganondorf almost like a god.

Again, this is before Ganondorf becomes anything but their King. The matter of fact is that all Gerudo except Nabooru follow Ganondorf blindly in OoT. There is no denying that.

Ganondorf was sealed in a great war. He was seen as truely evil. In FSA, there is no suggestion that Ganondorf could be bad. They didn't even believe that Ganon and Ganondorf could be related, but thought it might be a connection to try because of a lack of other avenues.

Nobody except Zelda knew who Ganon was. But she did know about him, because he had been around before FSA. There is nothing wrong in saying that the people forgot about Ganon, in fact, it is logical.

Even in WW, where all of Hyrule and the majority of it's people have been submersed in water, people *still* remember and dispise Ganon / Ganondorf. Hence, in a game set in Hyrule itself, it's clear that no one evil called Ganondorf or Ganon has existed before. At the same time, the game has to be after Ganon touches the Triforce. They only place it could fit is slighly after OoT Child.

WTF? Nobody, not even Link, knew who Ganondorf was in TWW. The King explains it to him when they first meet and says "He is the very same Ganon... The emperor of the dark realm the ancient legends speak of...", but there is no indication that this is common knowledge. After all, the King was surprised that Link and Zelda did not know about Hyrule. And not a single character in the game makes a connection between the "dark shadow" and Ganon. Also, if FSA is indeed after TWW as I believe, why would the people think anymore about Ganondorf? He was dead as far as they knew. Vaati was a much more immediate threat, but the people have almost forgotten about him as well in FS (And they had a shrine to remember him by).

The Trident isn't stated as being the reason why Ganon is called the King of Darkness. Only getting the Triforce has ever been stated as bestowing that title.

Nope.

Seek you the world? Seek you power? Does your soul despise peace and thirst for more? Does your soul cry for destruction and conquest? We grant you power to ruin the world. The power of darkness. Evil spirit of magic trident. You are the King of Darkness.

Saying that Ganon did not get his powers and title from the Trident is outright wrong. Also, he did not have any powers when he left for the pyramid as he was forced to flee from the Gerudo.

The 'evil reborn' isn't named. Hence, it is easliy possible that this is the first time Ganon has appeared, even if another evil preceeded him.

But that previous King of Darkness would still be Ganon, as Ganon is his rebirth.

It makes no sense to suggest this is a time when no one knows of the 'first' Ganon given that even in WW he is remembered IMO.

In your opinion? Either he was remembered or he wasn't - And the fact is that he wasn't.

Hence, it seems to me that FSA is most likely to happen slightly after OoT Child. Ganon is a consistant theme in the Zelda games, and it makes no sense to have no one remember him considering his importance.

So are Link and Zelda, but nobody seems to remember them (Other than the HoT in TWW).

Edited by Hero of Legend, 08 December 2005 - 05:37 PM.

[Tri-Enforcer]

Link and Zelda have already screwed that part up. The Triforce has split (hence Link has the ToC still) so they can't make it any worse. I take the seal to have transversed time and hence preventing the same future from occuring, and hence Link doesn't have to remember what his alternate future did (and in all fairness, it makes sence that he doesn't remember).

There is not even a fraction of a canon source, that supports this. If you can provide at least a partial canon source that Link forgot eveything when he went back then...it may...but there's really nothing. That point is too fanficy and not factual at all. Like I said, Link went back and forth through time in OOT and he didn't forget anything...heck how else would he know to go to certain places and temples in the past, if he forgot what he found out in the future? Mo, you might as well a drop the "he forgets" example. Once more Link would've remembered Ganon and what he was trying to do in the first place. If no one remembers the alternate future, then I suppose no one would remember to move the Triforc out of the Sacred Realm, since FSA Ganon can go in and out at will. It just doesn't add up...drop it.

Still haven't played the game, just read the Quote FAQ. However, we do see the Temple that the FS is in is in the DW, and hence, regardless of which world the palace of FS is in in FSA, we see the FS in the DW in aLttP GBA.

For the third time, you keep skipping this statement--I noticed, that level is just a bonus and nothing more. Its not accurate. We see the FS Palace in the light world in FSA--that part is at the beginning of the game and is not a bonus--so that stands.

The IW itself doesn't mention the Triforce, and that part is covered in FSA IMO.

What IW story were you reading? Don't say the Jap version because the Triforce is touched upon there as well.

The BS makes no mention of 'people knowing Ganon had the Triforce' at all. It simply says that greedy men went to join Ganons army. FSA even shows greedy Deku Scrubs joining Ganon so it reinforces it. BTW, I'm going by Jap manual, so I don't accept that the people of Hyrule made the MS during aLttP BS perposely for Ganon - the Jap version says something else.
aLttP BS also suggests that they couldn't find the MS at the time as time was short, which *also* works well with FSA.

First of all, I did not not say the MS was created in response to Ganon touching the Triforce. What I was getting at was that the sages began searching for someone to hold the MS once Ganon touched the Triforce--that's what I'm saying. Stop making up things I didn't say. You also, go on to make up some BS that the Japanese version states nothing about the people knowing about Ganon's wish---you are so wrong! Both versions mentions that point:

(aLttP Jap version) When the leader touched the Triforce, his hands stained in fresh blood, the emblems' spirits began to whisper....

The man's name was Ganondorf, and his common name was Ganon of the race of evil thieves....

Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time....

We do not know what Ganon wished for after gaining the Triforce's power....

The King of Hyrule called upon the Seven Sages of Hyrule, as well as the Knights to seal the source of this evil.

The people celebrated their victory; Hyrule had been saved from Ganon's misuse of the Triforce's power.

There you have it...even in the Japanese version...people knew Ganon touched the Triforce and why he was around. Once again, this is not the case in FSA

Edited by Tri-Enforcer, 08 December 2005 - 05:06 PM.