16 replies to this topic

[Showsni]

Whilst trawling through the ALttP Japanese/English manual comparison, again, something hit me - not a rock, but a thought on the triforce. The Japanese manual states:

"After forming all that is, when it was time for them to depart this realm, the gods consummated the land with a symbol forged of their own power, in the form of a sacred, golden, triangle: the "Triforce." Their course finally running to completion, the gods left the Triforce to govern this land. The Triforce, respectively: "one who would Conquer Power," "one who would Govern Wisdom," and "one who would Temper Courage" held three different emblems. It would shine in the Sacred Realm, somewhere in the world, until one who was worthy of inheriting those powers appeared."

At the time the gods left this world, after having created everything, a golden holy triangle "Triforce," constituting the symbol of the gods' personal power, was left behind and was to rule the entire world. Each part of the Triforce, "the Ruler of Power", "the Administrator of Wisdom" and "the Forger of Courage", carried a crest. Until the appearance of an appropiate person who would take over this force, it was located in a holy place somewhere in the world, shining continiously.

Now, we've all taken the English manual's word for it that those names are titles bestowed by the triforce, and that in itself it's an inanimate object. However, the Japanese clearly states the triforce is to rule the world - how could it do that if it was inanimate? What if, the triforce is instead more like three beings, formed fromt he goddesses power. Then the three triangles we see are the "crests" that each part carries - a physical manifestation of the triforce, which is actually a seperate being - and these beings are "the Ruler of Power", "the Administrator of Wisdom" and "the Forger of Courage." So the ruler of power is a part of the trifroce, who is physically manifested as the Triforce of Power but is actually a third of the being who rule the world of Hyrule in the goddesses absence - they're kind of demi-gods formed from the actual goddesses. Then the esence of the triforce, at the end of the game, is when we actually hear these demi-gods speaking.

http://www.zhq2.com/...incess_boss.wmv
http://www.zhq2.com/...rest_temple.wmv
http://www.zhq2.com/...s_horseback.wmv
http://www.zhq2.com/...ess_village.wmv

Edited by Showsni, 29 January 2006 - 09:10 PM.

[MK.]

Not bad.

One problem is they kinda contradict themselves. In what I think was the Japan manual they say that the Triforce does not know good or evil, it merely obeys its owner...

Yet at the same time, it seems to have "some sort of essense."

So, it must just not be very bright...

Since Ocarina of Time it hasn't had a noticeable essense...
OOT and WW it just "sat there"

[mohammedali]

Whilst trawling through the ALttP Japanese/English manual comparison, again, something hit me - not a rock, but a thought on the triforce. The Japanese manual states:

 

 
Now, we've all taken the English manual's word for it that those names are titles bestowed by the triforce, and that in itself it's an inanimate object. However, the Japanese clearly states the triforce is to rule the world - how could it do that if it was inanimate? What if, the triforce is instead more like three beings, formed fromt he goddesses power. Then the three triangles we see are the "crests" that each part carries - a physical manifestation of the triforce, which is actually a seperate being - and these beings are "the Ruler of Power", "the Administrator of Wisdom" and "the Forger of Courage." So the ruler of power is a part of the trifroce, who is physically manifested as the Triforce of Power but is actually a third of the being who rule the world of Hyrule in the goddesses absence - they're kind of demi-gods formed from the actual goddesses. Then the esence of the triforce, at the end of the game, is when we actually hear these demi-gods speaking.

It's an interesting theory. However, when I read 'govern the land', I didn't take it to mean the same as a leader or a ruler. Instead I thought it kept the rules of the land in balance - hence one who can manipulate such things is one to be vary of. Alternatively it could mean govern in an indirect way - i.e. it was left to govern the land by being used by someone. e.g. The King in AoL BS governed the land using the Triforce.

Mohammed Ali

[Fyxe]

Not bad.

One problem is they kinda contradict themselves.  In what I think was the Japan manual they say that the Triforce does not know good or evil, it merely obeys its owner...

Yet at the same time, it seems to have "some sort of essense."

So, it must just not be very bright...

Since Ocarina of Time it hasn't had a noticeable essense...
OOT and WW it just "sat there"

Just because the essense doesn't say much doesn't mean it's not there. The essense also works on a level beyond human logic, 'good' and 'evil' are concepts it doesn't understand, because the two concepts are human creations. Good and evil don't *really* exist, as such.

Also, it's not that the Triforce doesn't understand good and evil, it's just that it doesn't see enough distinction to make the choice to grant a wish or not. It just does it. That's what it's there for.

The Triforce's spirit, whatever it may be, clearly knows of some greater purpose, and only affects the world around it when it's required for whatever reason.

I think it's said that a part of the gods resides in it, in some form, and that's probably more than just pure power. Otherwise why would it speak, or send Link to another land in the Oracle games?

[Steel Samurai]

Now, we've all taken the English manual's word for it that those names are titles bestowed by the triforce, and that in itself it's an inanimate object. However, the Japanese clearly states the triforce is to rule the world - how could it do that if it was inanimate? What if, the triforce is instead more like three beings, formed fromt he goddesses power. Then the three triangles we see are the "crests" that each part carries - a physical manifestation of the triforce, which is actually a seperate being - and these beings are "the Ruler of Power", "the Administrator of Wisdom" and "the Forger of Courage." So the ruler of power is a part of the trifroce, who is physically manifested as the Triforce of Power but is actually a third of the being who rule the world of Hyrule in the goddesses absence - they're kind of demi-gods formed from the actual goddesses. Then the esence of the triforce, at the end of the game, is when we actually hear these demi-gods speaking.

What if, instead, the demi gods are the ones who actually possess the triforce? (or is that what the game is saying anyway) The triforce is the emblem which is passed down as the next hero receives the piece of the triforce. Ganon would always have been the ruler of power, but it could be that every time a new hero appears and receives the triforce, he becomes the next manifestation of the demi-god of courage.

[Crazy Penguin]

However, the Japanese clearly states the triforce is to rule the world - how could it do that if it was inanimate?

It's on auto-pilot.

[MK.]

Fyxe, I don't want to turn this into a big debate, but one of my core beliefs is that good and evil are universal concepts... Man didn't "invent them."

[Fyxe]

Define evil.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

One man's brave soldier is another man's oppressor.

[Koji]

I see the Triforce as a being kinda like the Ring is in LOTR, except the Triforce doesn't have evil intentions like the Ring, and is a little more passive in its actions.

As far as good and evil - I'm with Fyxe.

[Hero of Legend]

We don't need the translation of the Japanese version of ALttP in order to know this, it is (re)-stated in OoT anyway.

Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence.

For it is in that Sacred Realm that one will find the divine relic, the Triforce, which contains the essence of the gods...

Now, given what we know about the Triforce, it is apparent that this "essence" (The Essence of the Triforce) is the "Power of the Gods" that the games continue to speak of. One possible theory is that the each individual Triforce piece holds the will and power of it's coresponding Goddess, thus, it has it's own "soul". Of course, this "soul" is not the soul of one of the Goddesses, because ALttP's manual makes a clear difference between them (I will get to that later) but as I said, the pieces do seem to hold the power of the Goddesses.

As for how the Triforce "rules the world", look at the quote from OoT. The Triforce controls everything indirectly. Fate is a fact in the Zelda series. The Triforce has the power to change fate, and therefore it is possible that it has affected everything that has ever happened. Or do you believe that it was mere chance that Link and Zelda got their Triforce pieces (for example)?

Just because the essense doesn't say much doesn't mean it's not there. The essense also works on a level beyond human logic, 'good' and 'evil' are concepts it doesn't understand, because the two concepts are human creations. Good and evil don't *really* exist, as such.

While that definitely is true for reality, this is a video game, and it has its own truths. If you had read the Japanese translation you would have seen this:

The Triforce itself cannot judge between good and evil. That is because only the gods can do that.

This tells us two things:

1. There is "good" and "evil" in the Zelda universe, but ONLY the gods knows which is which.

2. This is the difference between the gods and the Essence of the Triforce that I spoke of earlier. Clearly the Goddesses cannot be in direct control of the Triforce.

(This reply was directed to MK. as well.)

[Hero of Legend]

We don't need the translation of the Japanese version of ALttP in order to know this, it is (re)-stated in OoT anyway.

Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world's providence.

For it is in that Sacred Realm that one will find the divine relic, the Triforce, which contains the essence of the gods...

Now, given what we know about the Triforce, it is apparent that this "essence" (The Essence of the Triforce) is the "Power of the Gods" that the games continue to speak of. One possible theory is that the each individual Triforce piece holds the will and power of it's coresponding Goddess, thus, it has it's own "soul". Of course, this "soul" is not the soul of one of the Goddesses, because ALttP's manual makes a clear difference between them (I will get to that later) but as I said, the piece seems to hold the power of it's Goddess.

As for how the Triforce "rules the world", look at the quote from OoT. The Triforce controls everything indirectly. Fate is a fact in the Zelda series. The Triforce has the power to change fate, and therefore it is possible that it has affected everything that has ever happened. Or do you believe that it was mere chance that Link and Zelda got their Triforce pieces (for example)?

Just because the essense doesn't say much doesn't mean it's not there. The essense also works on a level beyond human logic, 'good' and 'evil' are concepts it doesn't understand, because the two concepts are human creations. Good and evil don't *really* exist, as such.

While that definitely is true for reality, this is a video game, and it has its own truths. If you had read the Japanese translation you would have seen this:

The Triforce itself cannot judge between good and evil. That is because only the gods can do that.

This tells us two things:

1. There is "good" and "evil" in the Zelda universe, but ONLY the gods knows which is which.

2. This is the difference between the gods and the Essence of the Triforce that I spoke of earlier. Clearly the Goddesses cannot be in direct control of the Triforce.

[mohammedali]

I see the Triforce as a being kinda like the Ring is in LOTR, except the Triforce doesn't have evil intentions like the Ring, and is a little more passive in its actions.

Well the ring in LotR was evil because it was the malice of Sauron. Hence it is slightly more than inanimate as it influences the wearer to act as Sauron would like them to. Almost like the 9 rings he gave to the 9 mortal Kings, doomed to die. Having said that, I understand what you're saying, and although it doesn't really match well with LotR, I agree in so much as the Triforce is power left behind by the gods and is used by others as power.

Mohammed Ali

[Crazy Penguin]

Auuuuuto-piiiiiilot.

[Tri-Enforcer]

I wouldn't focus too much on the statement about the Triforce governing over the world as if it does it by itself. We see time and time again--in the games themselves, and the lore attached to them--that the owner of the Triforce can govern over the world with its power. Plain and simple.

[Doopliss]

It's an intereting hypothesis, but I consider it lacks enough porbes. In my opinion, tghe text meant that the Triforce can grant the power to gobern the world.

[MikePetersSucks]

The way I always interpretted it is that the Triforce acts as a divine knot in creation, the seam that holds the whole thing together, and while it's idle, it maintains reality like a daemon on a computer server. The weilder of the Triforce is basically an Administrator that chooses to enter a patch or two.

[Koji]

Well the ring in LotR was evil because it was the malice of Sauron. Hence it is slightly more than inanimate as it influences the wearer to act as Sauron would like them to. Almost like the 9 rings he gave to the 9 mortal Kings, doomed to die. Having said that, I understand what you're saying, and although it doesn't really match well with LotR, I agree in so much as the Triforce is power left behind by the gods and is used by others as power.

...That was my entire point. The Triforce isn't evil because it wasn't made by anyone evil. It was made by the gods, who are just - therefore it is just in it's actions. But it's still an inanimate object that happens to be concious. I though it was a fairly effective comparison...