60 replies to this topic

[Korhend]

First of all, niether is Israel, Jews come from the caucaus mountains. Second maybe a country that did something to the jews should have to fork something over. You know. Something really really bad.

[arunma]

Originally posted by Korhend@Sep 22 2004, 09:03 PM
First of all, niether is Israel, Jews come from the caucaus mountains. Second maybe a country that did something to the jews should have to fork something over. You know. Something really really bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well there are two considerations we have to make here. First, Jews aren't a race, they're a nationality. You've got white Jews, black Jews, middle eastern Jews, and Indian Jews (the kind from India).

Secondly, Israel has existed since at least 600 BC (again, if you ignore the Bible).

[Korhend]

Well depends on how specific you want to be, but generally the Jewish race (I call them that not because of there religion, but because it is a race) started in the caucaus mountains in the dim days of man (thats if you wanna believe evolution)

[Alakhriveion]

Originally posted by Korhend@Sep 22 2004, 09:20 PM
Well depends on how specific you want to be, but generally the Jewish race (I call them that not because of there religion, but because it is a race) started in the caucaus mountains in the dim days of man (thats if you wanna believe evolution)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First off, Race doesn't exist.

Second, We actually started in Modern-day Iraq, moved to Modern-Day Palestine, from there to Egypt, Ethiopia and Palestine, back to Iraq, into Persia, into Palestine again, then BAM! Conquered by Alexander. You know the rest, Diaspora all over the globe. There's no shortage of place which equally could and couldn't be the homeland.

[Korhend]

then why can forensics tell us peoples skin color by bone structure? Why does AIDS grow at an exponential rate in african's cells compared to a europeans?

[Alakhriveion]

That's ethnicity. Race means genome, and none of those things are in ours. Those are individual, hereditary differences, but as "racially" meaningful as red hair.

[Korhend]

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 22 2004, 09:48 PM
That's ethnicity.  Race means genome, and none of those things are in ours.  Those are individual, hereditary differences, but as "racially" meaningful as red hair.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your right Race is broken down into 5 races which are broken down into ethnicities. Jews fall under a Causoid Race of Caucasian ethnicity.

[Custommagnum]

Five races... I thought there were three... but I don't remember the names right now...

But I'm pretty sure there are three.

[Alakhriveion]

Originally posted by Korhend@Sep 23 2004, 06:26 PM
Your right Race is broken down into 5 races which are broken down into ethnicities. Jews fall under a Causoid Race of Caucasian ethnicity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Race=Species. Humans aren't different enough to be "races." We have ONE Genome.

[Korhend]

Someones been reading to much tolkien

Race: Noun 1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the White race.

The five scientifically backed races are Caucasoids, Mongloids, Negroids, Capoids, and Australoids

[Alakhriveion]

Linguistics and science are seperate here. The word race is used in that way, conceded, but it's biologically incorrect and therefore innapplicable as evidence. Different species have different Genome. Remember, chimps are only 3% different from us in that respect- a real, racial difference like that wouldn't allow interbreeding.

[Korhend]

Again this definition has no basis in fact

Biology.

1. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.

example of different subspecies is the difference of say.... Bengal Tiger from an indo-chinese Can you spot the difference?

[Alakhriveion]

Again, interbreeding is a no. As long as you can mate, there's no differentiation in anything.

Are there hereditary differences? Yes. Are these widespread? Yes. Does this make the use of "race" acceptable? No. Anyway, can we get back to the original topic?

[Korhend]

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 23 2004, 11:13 PM
Again, interbreeding is a no.  As long as you can mate, there's no differentiation in anything.

Are there hereditary differences?  Yes.  Are these widespread?  Yes.  Does this make the use of "race" acceptable?  No.  Anyway, can we get back to the original topic?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Would you prefer the term "sub-species"? Maybe you should split the topics.

[Alakhriveion]

Oh, yeah. I'm a mod.

[Alakhriveion]

Anyway, sub-species is no better. I suppose the technical term would be "breed," althoug that does have nasty connotations.

[SteveT]

Sub-species and breed both have bad connotations. They would both lead to ideas that one was inherently superior.

Alak, Korhend has quoted two different dictionaries to bring you the accepted definition of race. What more do you want?

The idea of races being different species doesn't come from biology. It comes from Science Fiction.

[Alakhriveion]

No, it doesn't. No human beings are different enough for such a differentiation- it doesn't really matter what the word is. While there are such groups, different to be aknowleged as seperate, "races" is too different and, as mentioned above, "breeds" lends itself to, again, something we need a new word for: evil.

[GraniteJJ]

Originally posted by SteveT@Sep 24 2004, 03:15 PM
Sub-species and breed both have bad connotations.  They would both lead to ideas that one was inherently superior. 

Alak, Korhend has quoted two different dictionaries to bring you the accepted definition of race.  What more do you want?

The idea of races being different species doesn't come from biology.  It comes from Science Fiction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alak is right though, about the definition of science and the dictionaries definition do not lend themselves to eachother.

Need I remind you of the debate we had over evolution and its connections with the words theory, law and hypothesis. A scientific theory is different than other theories, because it means something different. You made that comment. Alak is pointing out the same thing applies here, and he's right.

[SteveT]

Yes, a lot of times words have different meanings in a scientific context. The difference is that in this case, the word doesn't. Not once have I heard in a biology class (granted, I never took it beyond high school) that race and species are synonomous. In fact, according to the dictionary, race is indeed more akin to breed from a Biology standpoint.

http://dictionary.re...m/search?q=race

[Korhend]

Yep, alak could you give a source for what dictionary you're using. I can't find a single one that uses it :S

[GraniteJJ]

EDIT: I decided to remove my post, as it was mostly incoherent babbling on account of my cold.

[Alakhriveion]

Originally posted by Korhend@Sep 24 2004, 09:46 PM
Yep, alak could you give a source for what dictionary you're using. I can't find a single one that uses it :S

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I said that, while verbally sound as a seperator, the idea of "race" has no really grounding. Of course the dictioaries agree with you- that's the way it's used. The fact people say something doesn't mean it's true.

[Korhend]

Not just Linguists, Biologists. What Biology book do you have to back you up?

[Alakhriveion]

I've got Carl Sagan, and a Biology textbook I no longer have...

[Korhend]

www.wordiq.com

In biology, some use race to mean a division within a species. Thus, in certain fields it is used as a synonym for subspecies or, in botany, variety. In the case of honeybees, for instance, it stands as a synonym for subspecies. In this usage, race serves to group members of a species that have, for a period of time, become geographically or genetically isolated from other members of that species, and as a result have diverged genetically and developed certain shared characteristics that differentiate them from the others. Although these characteristics rarely appear in all members of the group, they are more marked in or appear more frequently than in the others.

[Alakhriveion]

some use...

Some also hold that the world is resting on the backs of an infinite stack of turtles. The point?

[Korhend]

that can be used to disprove any logic. Some believe the world is round. Because some people believe it does not in anyway disprove it. The difference between those people who believe the world rests on an infinate stack of turtles and those that believe in classification is those "some" happen to be biologists.

[Alakhriveion]

You can prove the world is round, but you're ducking this. Common usage doesn't make it true.