52 replies to this topic

[Korhend]

No one can deny that with out U.S. backing that there would be no state of Israel today. America has virtually built the entire nation's defense force, and supports its unstable economy. The United States constantly uses its U.N. power to protect Israel. I'm not here to complain about anything that they have done to the Palestinians, because frankly, I don't care. America has no stake in it. Israel does though obviously. You would think a nation as dependent as Israel is to us would be overflowing with gratitude. But with friendly gratitude like the israelis give, who needs enemies.
America and her European allies no longer commit acts of espionage on each other, trusting one another as allies. Nor do we commit espionage against the Israelis, Israel does.
America treats well visiting civilians from friendly and unfriendly nations. Israel Butchers American Civilians
When America wanted to invade Iraq and stop a hostile nation towards Israel (Iraq), in both gulf wars, America asked to deploy troops using Israel as a staging area. In this simple task, they refused.
America has given more then in the garden of eden to israel, and they have given nothing in return, for our efforts we recieve only the hatred of the Muslim world. When will Israel start pulling their weight? Or more likely when will America drop the alliance?

[arunma]

Korhend, I do see your point. I guess Israeli espionage was a bad move on their part. But as for Israel killing American civilians, it doesn't look like the woman in question was killed because of her nationality, so I don't consider this an attack against 'Americans' per se.

But there are a couple reasons to support Israel. First, without Israel, we have no other ally in the middle east (to whatever extent Israel is an ally). Secondly, and most importantly, Jews have to have some sort of homeland. I'm not speaking from any religious convictions here. Jews, as you know, have been massively screwed over in the past. It's not like they didn't do their part to defend themselves in 1948, 1967, and 1973. At the very least, they didn't ask for American soldiers.

Off topic:

The only real dillema I see is that Israel is in turn screwing over the Palestinians. But then, the solution here (easier said than done) is to create a Palestinian state, not to destroy the Jewish one.

[Korhend]

heres where my pragmatic Nationalism comes in arunma. Every nation has its own distinct destiny. The more you try to manage other nations the more they resent it. This is what has gotten america in so much trouble. It is not Americas place to decide who gets a homeland and who doesn't. It is americas job to care for americans, and if 3,000 american lives could be saved by giving Israel what they deserve, I'm all for it.
I know Rachel Corrie was not killed for her nationality but the point still remains, that should have been a major international incident. But it barely appeared as a blip on the political radar.

[arunma]

So we should let Israel die? We do have some responsibility to the rest of the world. As you know from your history, the last time America took an isolationist stance, Jews got %*@$ed (along with a lot of other people, including American soldiers).

Therefore, should we not do anything to keep Israel on the map?

[Korhend]

Not unless Israel can start acting like an ally.

[arunma]

Yes, agreed. Also they need to stop wailing on the Palestinians. I mean, yeah, Arafat's a dumbass. But most Palestinians aren't blood thirsty maniacs (only Khuffie...and even then it's in a good way ). They're people too, so you can't screw with them.

[Korhend]

I dont just mean that, I mean giving something back to the Americans for all this support.

[arunma]

What can the Israelis give us? Sure, they're armed to the teeth, but they don't have a lot of money to spare.

But if it counts for anything, Zionist Jews in America are insanely patriotic. Most synagogues have American and Israeli flags right next to each other (a practice I'd oppose in a church...but whatever).

[Oberon Storm]

I don't think the treatment of Jews through history entitles them to anything. Pushing aside one group of people to give them a home land just because we feel sorry for them was a wrong move.

[Khuffie]

[quote]Originally posted by Korhend+Sep 20 2004, 10:51 PM-->

When America wanted to invade Iraq and stop a hostile nation towards Israel (Iraq), in both gulf wars, America asked to deploy troops using Israel as a staging area. In this simple task, they refused.

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Just wanted to make a point Korhend. I'm far from supporting Israel on anything, but they didn't refuse. America didn't ask. In fact, America didn't want Israel involved in any war. In fact, they specifically told Israel on both occasions that if they do get attacked, they are not to retaliate, and that the US Army will in its place. In the first gulf war, Iraq launched some missles that hit Israel, but Israel did nothing.

Why? Any Muslim that sees troops coming from Israel and marching towards a Muslim country would cause even more chaos. Of course, Israel has attacked Iraq before (read: bombing Iraqi power plants when Iraq was not even a 'threat' to them to begin with), but during the wars that would have been far far worse.

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[Korhend]

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 20 2004, 10:44 PM
What can the Israelis give us?  Sure, they're armed to the teeth, but they don't have a lot of money to spare.

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And thats why I suggest we ditch them as allies.

[arunma]

Well, you guys know that the Jews get screwed over every time the rest of the world forgets about them (the holocaust wasn't the only thing, you know), so I don't think we should ditch them.

[Hero of Winds]

Originally posted by Khuffie
The US has many allies in the Middle East. Jordan and Egypt are both basically America's bitches, so is Kuwait. Saudi Arabia is another ally, much as Michael Moore tries to tell you otherwise.

Actually, I may slightly agree with Moore on this one (OMGWTFBBQ!!!111). The Saudis are... a suspicious bunch. While I don't think there's some huge conspiracy for world domination or anything of the sort, they do seem quick to kill any and all terrorists in their possession. Like they're trying to hide something...

[arunma]

Well, the Saudi Arabian government is our ally. But the people don't much care for us (I've talked to some Saudis).

[Khuffie]

[quote]Originally posted by Hero of Winds+Sep 21 2004, 07:41 PM-->

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[Alakhriveion]

The Saudis are guilty of gross human rights violations. Israel illegally occupies Palestine. Iraq is, well, all fucked up. Kuwait just recently got with the whole "women voting" thing. Iran is a theocracy. The list goes on. To make a long story short, the Middle East is a problematic region.

Please bare in mind, though, that the same is true for EVERY OTHER LOCATION ON EARTH (Canada excepted). The current significance of the Mideast to Am3ricans and LAliens makes this less apperant, but, let's face it, this planet needs some big changes. China, remember them? The most populous nation on Earth is under martial law. Oh, how about India? They've got this problem with plauges they're too poor to fully handle. What about New York? We can't even clean THAT up!

As for the Israel-specific bit, though, the UN has to just go in there and knock a little sense into everyone.

[Korhend]

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 21 2004, 07:39 PM
Aliens makes this less apperant, but, let's face it, this planet needs some big changes.  China, remember them?  The most populous nation on Earth is under martial law.

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Oh I remember, still It makes me wanna do a jig!

[Korhend]

Originally posted by arunma@Sep 21 2004, 06:33 PM
Well, you guys know that the Jews get screwed over every time the rest of the world forgets about them (the holocaust wasn't the only thing, you know), so I don't think we should ditch them.

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Yet there are no tears for the serbs...

[arunma]

Originally posted by Korhend@Sep 21 2004, 08:31 PM
Yet there are no tears for the serbs...

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How many centuries have the Serbs been screwed over for? At least 35 for the Jews (that's if you ignore all the Bible stuff).

[Korhend]

As long as there have been serbs

[arunma]

For how long have there been Serbs?

[Custommagnum]

....What?

While I dislike Isreal, not all the citizens are bloodthristy monsters, and once someone turns 18 there, they're in the army for a few years. In a country surronded by people who hate them...

We give Isreal money and help, lots of people don't die...

Now all that they need are non-bastard leaders. -.-

[arunma]

True. Israel does need some leaders who don't think the whole world is out to get them.

[Alakhriveion]

Originally posted by Korhend@Sep 21 2004, 08:31 PM
Yet there are no tears for the serbs...

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Well, it is a much smaller scale, and as I recall, we actual went to war over that once.

[Korhend]

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 22 2004, 09:34 AM
Well, it is a much smaller scale, and as I recall, we actual went to war over that once.

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Actually that was the one time the serbs Fought back and we attacked them. It was Mussolini who saved the serbs.

[Korhend]

Heres some interesting numbers

# Since 1987, the US congress has annually been approving a foreign aid bill totaling an average of $3 billion of American taxpayers' money to Israel, $1.2 billion in economical aid, and $1.8 billion in military aid.
# After the gulf war in 1991, the US has additionally been offering Israel $2 billion annually in federal loan guarantees, which brings the total US foreign aid to Israel to about $5 billion, or $13.7 million per day.
# Other forms of aid to Israel are a result of "consequential" aid, such as the approximate $1.5 billion in total tax-deductible private donations from numerous Jewish charities and individual donors. "Consequential" aid to Israel adds up to an approximate $8 billion in total US foreign aid to Israel.
# All in all, this is the largest amount of foreign aid given to a country, and constitutes over 30% of the total amount of US foreign aid budget.
* Israel is an economically, technologically, and militarily advanced country, with a per capita rate of $14,000, which is higher that that of all neighboring Arab countries, including the oil-rich Saudi Arabia. It is ranked as the world's sixteenth wealthiest country, yet the US aid to Israel constitutes 30% of the total US foreign aid budget.
    * Israeli population is 5.8 million, which only constitutes one thousandth of the world's total population. Between the years 1949 and 1998, the US has provided a total of $84 billion in aid to Israel, which exceeds that given to all countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean combined, with a total population of about 1.054 billion people.
Besides the roughly $8 billion in annual taxpayer money to Israel, there are hard to track forms of aid which have been causing great economic losses to the American people. According to the Central Bank of Israel, in the 1980's the US bailed out the Israeli banking system at a cost of $10-12 billion in military and economic aids. Congressional researchers disclose that this money was never paid back, and has been forgiven by the American government.
The US's trade deficit with Israel is about $5-5.5 billion. This is due to trade imbalance between both countries. This costs the American people an equivalence of a quarter million jobs.

[Ganondorf]

America should leave the rest of the world alone and stop policing everyone. Why is it OK if Isreal and the US have nuclear weapons but countries that they don't like don't deserve it. I think that there should be no production of nuclear weapons at all in any country. Switzerland should be policing the world and deciding who is dangerous and who's not because they have remained relatively neutral in wars. Same with Canada.
The US should not have the right to create a Jewish country from the land of Palestinians. If they wanted it so bad why not give Texas away to those Jews. But the people would be opposed to it wouldn't they? Exactly how Palestinians felt. I hope that Palestinians take back their land.

[Korhend]

A good point but I'm not arguing that. America should stop aiding Israel because it is not advantagous for the U.S. itself.