57 replies to this topic

[Alakhriveion]

OK, this is my token topic. It's actually not a good one to discuss without preparation and such, so instead, we'll just talk about the war, and why the president and John Kerry are both evil... yet dumb.

[Alistia]

This is a nice pic, I found on a random DevArt site.

[Alakhriveion]

Hmm, very nice.

Which leads my to the responses of my two increasingly independant personality modes:

Why can't we just get along? War causes only pain.

Fuck that. When you say war, you're just talking about the current model, old, rich men, sending young, poor men to die over land, money, and power. A war of liberation is the only way to end it, don't get all punk-socialist-peacenik on me.

[Hero of Winds]

Kerry can't even throw a ball to home plate, let alone a strike. Obviously not presidential material.

[Alakhriveion]

That's true. And we've been TOLD the president can, who are we to question the powers that be?

[Hero of Winds]

Uh... we SAW him throw a perfect strike. Kerry's pitch was utter FAILURE!

[Alakhriveion]

Saw... or were TOLD? It's lies I tell you! (I won't stop saying this, by the way, you'll have to come up with something else.)

[Hero of Winds]

Both systems (capitalism and communism) are bad. But capitalism is the lesser of two evils. I'm looking for a good balance between the two... and ISN'T socialism.

[Alistia]

How is capitalism the lesser of the two evils?

[Hero of Winds]

Because it's straight up with you, in some respects. Communism gives you the illusion of equality.

[Korhend]

Originally posted by Hero of Winds@Sep 15 2004, 02:32 PM
Both systems (capitalism and communism) are bad. But capitalism is the lesser of two evils. I'm looking for a good balance between the two... and ISN'T socialism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Corporativism.

[Hero of Winds]

Explain.

[Korhend]

In corporativism, the government and industry is combined into one being (in some forms government officials take business positions others its vice versa) Government and industry now being unified into one organization plan and manipulate the economy to produce the best results.

[Hero of Winds]

Cool. Any successful real world examples? Any real world of failures? I'm curious as to how this system would affect a nation...

[Korhend]

Continuous economic growth in Portugal, spain, and italy. Like all systems it has its flaws, in this case Favoritism and Nepotism. I know some people favor an form of it called anarcho-syndicalism, which uses democracy and is represented by industry, Gabrielle D'annunzio believed in it once.

[Alakhriveion]

Uh... that is, in fact, socialism.

[Korhend]

No it doesn't hit the rich as hard as socialism, and doesn't engage in class warfare. The idea is to unite the nation to create a cooporative vision. Strikes and Lock Ins are illegal.

[Alakhriveion]

Originally posted by Big O@Sep 15 2004, 08:21 PM
No it doesn't hit the rich as hard as socialism, and doesn't engage in class warfare. The idea is to unite the nation to create a cooporative vision. Strikes and Lock Ins are illegal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm. Fascist.

(After IM convo)

j00r Korhend? OOH! Fascist.

[Hero of Winds]

MD13: I said something that isn't socialism.

And I'm starting to develop an interest in Corporativism...

*goes off to do research*

[Alakhriveion]

Don't do it, Hero! It makes sense! That means it's socialism in DISGUISE!

[Korhend]

Historically, corporatism or corporativism (Italian corporativismo) is a political system in which legislative representation is given to corporations such as industrial, professional, or economic groups. Unlike pluralism, in which many groups must compete for control of the state, in corporatism, certain unelected bodies take a critical role in the decision-making process. This original meaning was not connected with the specific notion of a business corporation, being a rather more general reference to any incorporated body. The word "corporatism" is derived from the Latin word for body, corpus.

Ostensibly, the entire society is to be run by decisions made by these corporate groups. It is a form of class collaboration put forward as an alternative to class conflict and was first proposed in Pope Leo XIII's 1891 encyclical, Rerum Novarum which influenced Catholic trade unions which were organised in the early twentieth century to counter the influence of trade unions founded on a socialist ideology. The Vatican's ideas were also influential in the development of fascist economic theory.

Gabriele D'Annunzio and anarcho-syndicalist Alceste de Ambris incorporated much of corporative philisophy in their Constitution of Fiume.

One early and important theorist of corporatism was Adam Müller, an advisor to Prince Metternich in what is now eastern Germany and Austria. Müller propounded his views as an antidote to the twin "dangers" of the egalitarianism of the French Revolution and the laissez faire economics of Adam Smith. In Germany and elsewhere there was a distinct aversion among rulers to allow unrestricted capitalism, owing to the feudalist and aristocratic tradition of giving state privileges to the wealthy and powerful.

Under Fascism in Italy, employers were organized into syndicates known as "corporations" according to their industries, and these groups were given representation in a legislative body known as the Camera dei Fasci e delle Corporazioni.

According to various theorists corporatism was an attempt to create a "modern" version of feudalism by merging the "corporate" interests with those of the state. Also see neofeudalism.

This use of the term "corporation" is not exactly equivalent to the restricted modern sense of the word. Compare corporate state and militarism. Corporate in this context is intended to convey the meaning of a "body," as in corpus. Its fundamental concept is to reflect more medieval European concepts of a whole society in which the various parts each play a part in the life of the society, just as the various parts of the body play specific parts in the life of a body.

Some elements of corporatism can be found still existing today, for example in the ILO Conference or in the Economic and Social Committee of the European Union, or the collective agreement arrangements of the Scandinavian countries.

[Oberon Storm]

Originally posted by Alakhriveion@Sep 15 2004, 08:24 PM
Hmmm.  Fascist.

(After IM convo)

j00r Korhend?  OOH!  Fascist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never had anything to base it on but I knew it was him.

[Alakhriveion]

No it isn't. There's no freedom of the press until I can get the press for free.

[arunma]

Europe has plenty of socialist democracies.

Actually, economists have found that capitalism leads to democracy, not the other way around.

[Alakhriveion]

That's true. They also found that democracy leads to socialism.