39 replies to this topic

[Green Goblin]

What if I were to tell you, that there are plenty within GamerGate that do identify as feminists?  And that they've specifically gotten doxxing accounts shut down and made it a point to do so every time?  But once again, because they're a public movement being hosted on public image boards, literally anyone can post there, and as a result, they don't feel the need to apologize when the information could have come from virtually anywhere. 

I like Lena's post specifically, because unlike you and pogo, she seems to address the points head-on with logic, while at the same time, not attacking me directly.  During this discussion, Jasi, you've been going for my throat every chance you could get.  So don't blame me when I act defensive around you. 

[Jasi]

For the third time I am just super confused about what you are even standing for at this point and I'd be interested in you clarifying it. Because you said you have no problems with anything Lena said, not just that you like it. But she is making counterpoints agains everything you said so it does not compute.

I stayed out of this until I really felt like you stopped making sense and I want to know if you realize how weird it sounds for you to make this post advocating for Gamergate only to turn around and agree with everyone saying that it's stupid and saying you wish it would end. Actually that seems very "logic"ally problematic to me and indeed I think I am focusing on the logic (or lack thereof) of your most recent posts. Sorry for not sugarcoating this but you're not making sense. It would be interesting if instead of getting defensive and changing the subject you could address my points head-on with logic without attacking me directly.

Edited by Jasi, 18 October 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Green Goblin]

When the hell did I attack you? o_O;

GamerGate turned out to be much ado about nothing.  But the ball is still rolling.  And in order for it to stop, I came up with a list of things to end it.  In my first post, I said "I'm pro-GamerGate", which I feel I should correct in saying "I WAS pro-GamerGate".  

I still have a strong loathing for Sarkeesian, Quinn and Wu (which is why I still talk mad shit about them and always will, because fuck those guys), but an organized resistance that's looking more and more as just a countermovement to them specifically just feels like overkill.  And the echo chamber that is Twitter (I loathe Twitter too), makes rallying for troops on either side easy as hell. 

Regardless of my personal standings however, I addressed certain things that will probably need to occur in order for the movement to feel resolution has been attained, so as to end it in a way that doesn't just make it pop up several months from now all over again. 

[Jasi]

Okay, so for it to not happen again, Sarkeesian needs to allow comments?

If that's the discussion at hand: for this to not happen again, 4chan needs to not go on hate campaigns against women based on questionable evidence, call women liars and conspirators and manipulators, and then try to say that wasn't really what was going on. I think itd be resolved if people who did this apologized for making a lot of unreasonable assumptions and for giving gamers a bad name.

[Green Goblin]

I know the Sarkeesian comments thing doesn't seem to make sense, but from my experience, no one likes being silenced online.  The entire reason Anonymous went after Scientology was because Scientology tried to get that video of Tom Cruise being crazy removed from the net.  The step that led to the forming of GamerGate proper was a bunch of websites straight up deleting any and all conversations that had to deal with Zoe Quinn (including benign ones).  Even if she never directly addresses comments, literally giving a person a place to vent on the videos has an inherent calming affect (like a placebo, at worst).  They might still dislike her, but given a place to voice said dislike prevents them from going other places and possibly finding more extreme ways of making their dissention known. 

 

Also, 4chan literally jettisoned the entire movement about a month ago.  And moot came out in saying that he won't tolerate it on the boards anymore. 

And trying to get inherently anonymous people on the internet to not only come out of anonymity, but to also apologize is quite wishful thinking indeed.  Especially since GamerGate proper isn't taking ownership of any direct attacks.  They're routinely condemned by most, and I hope the people who actually went after these women (whoever they may be) get locked up for their crimes.  I know it's a bit of a half-measure, but how about donating money to anti-bullying charities?  They're doing that right now.

[Selena]

4chan itself may be distancing itself from the whole thing, but I think a lot of people from 4chan are independently fueling things. Because the angry side of the pro-GG camp strongly resembles 4chan raid mentality.

 

 

 

Because when they get focused on something, it's all about winning the "war." Hold the line, we're beating them, we're winning -- all those after each little raid that's deemed a success. I don't think these people are interested in any noble goals. Only in seeing the other side cave. It was like that during the tumblr thing, too. They quit only when they felt like they won something. 

 

The "SJW" side is, by nature, retaliatory in nature. They weren't really doing anything prior to the Quinn accusations.

 

After Quinn was shamed, it was like poking at a beehive. A handful of feminists came out to defend Quinn. Which involved flinging insults back across the aisle. That gave the GG crowd a nemesis to focus all their anger on, especially given prior clashes. Any goals that GamerGate supposedly had were pushed to the wayside and made irrelevant unless excuses for harassment were needed. It became about breaking those "overly sensitive" voices, and fighting back against the "haughty" social justice movement.

 

 

 

I don't think it will stop until people feel like they've won something -- or if it goes on for so long that it just finally fades into obscurity.  GG's original goals have never been well-defined or properly aimed, so it's more about malice than objectives.

[Green Goblin]

To me, saying that people from 4chan are behind something is like saying that people from Twitter are behind something.  It's such an pointless statement, with the boards being what they are.  Anonymity making it damn near impossible to demand or even expect anything in terms of an act of contrition.  A turnabout like that just isn't in the cards.  But if an olive branch is extended from the other end (ie: the public figure heads), then a lot of muster can be taken away from their opposition.  Look at Escapist Magazine:  Right at the start, they saw that just deleting comments en masse is just gonna lead to revolt, so they apologized for that brief moment of panic, let the discussion happen (with civility promised from all sides) and once it was found out to not contain much, it died on its own over there.  GamerGate leaves them the hell alone even now. 

[Selena]

And a lot of people would counter by saying that such an action would be rewarding a tantrum. I'm inclined to agree. It absolutely feels like that. Most of the demands are inherently trivial and attention-seeking in nature. Sarkeesian has to open comments, because it will make people feel better if they can directly yell at her in a public forum. Public debates between both parties. Gaming sites have to allow these debates to spill all over their comment sections and social media, because it will make veteran gamers feel like they aren't being marginalized.

 

All of these things have little to do with goals or principles, and everything to do with attention. "It will get better if gamers feel like their opinions -- however off-base or insulting -- are heard." Which is almost exactly what a tantrum is. Get your way, get attention... or start screaming until the opposition caves.

 

"It will end it," you might say in response. "It will make things cool down."

 

 

But it will also give angry gamers a precedent to act like this in the future whenever they feel slighted.

 

 

This goes back to the changing face of geek culture.

 

Why exactly are gaming sites the bad guys? Because they seemingly sided with Quinn and wouldn't allow people to scream about this on their sites? That alone is not even worthy of the nerd-rage it has produced. "They angered their core audience of veteran gamers." But that goes back to the culture change at work. Gamers can -- and always have -- happily ignored or shut down outside voices in the community. Professional publications cannot do that. They have to appeal to the whole gaming community, not just the "old guard." 

 

Being professional publications that target the whole community, it should be fairly understandable why they weren't happy when a bunch of gamers ranted endlessly about the Quinn stuff. It's bad publicity. It makes them look bad. Like I said earlier, old excuses will no longer be free passes for assholish behavior. This is one sign of those changing times. Gaming sites don't want to be associated with that nonsense anymore.

 

 

Because gamers have never had to share space before, this feels like some grand betrayal and conspiracy against "them." Those were "their" magazines and sites, and now the sites are turning on them and siding with those whiny SJWs instead.

 

But it's not a grand betrayal. It's growing pains. It's a sign of changing times. It's not just "them," anymore. The general public is now part of gaming too, and the general public doesn't look fondly on things that we have grown used to over the years.

 

 

 

In order for the pro-GG side to get what they want, they first have to know what they want. Beyond just attention. The message is not clear, and the message that does come across is highly unappealing. Why should the other side "concede" or "extend olive branches" when they were effectively minding their own business before a bunch of people started calling a girl a nepotistic whore (with little unbiased proof)? The origins of GamerGate alone were ridiculous from the very start, and now they want the other side to acquiesce in order to calm the hordes.

[Green Goblin]

Let me reiterate that in this particular case, it's not "them" asking this, but rather ME personally.  However, you (as always) make a very valid point.  You're right that it would absolutely set a precedence to be utilized in the future.  I hadn't thought of that.  There really is nothing that can be done directly to end this abruptly.  =/

What's do you think is going to happen when all is said and done?

[Selena]

Admin note: Thread locked upon request, as there's probably not much else that can come from it.