29 replies to this topic

[TheAvengerLever]

I do. Remember when things would get even more heated in here than in Contro?

 

 

I do.

 

 

I miss timeline theorizing sometimes. That was most of what this place was. Now it's...dead space. And I'm fuckin' Isaac Clarke, baby. My favorite thing was when The Wind Waker invented the split timeline, and the single timeline vs split timeline debates that followed.

 

What was your favorite era of Storyline-ing?

[Sir Turtlelot]

I miss theorizing from time to time, hell it was what brought me to LA in the first place. It was like trying to solve a puzzle that had a few pieces that didn't quite fit. (I'm looking at you Four Sword games. )

 

It was quite fun though, even if things did get heated from time to time. Ever since the Historia came out, this section kind of died out, even though it had some flaws of its own.

 

I didn't start theorizing until after the whole linear vs split thing died down, so the only big debate I recall seeing was if the pre-OoT games took place after WW or TP, and most of LA seemed to agree on a post-TP placement.

 

I also remember when I first got into theorizing, I was hellbent on making a timeline where the Sleeping Zelda story preceded all the games, save for maybe ALttP, because she was clearly the first Zelda. I ended up borrowing heavily from Showsni's timeline, since he seemed to have the same idea.

Edited by Sir Turtlelot, 01 October 2014 - 12:59 AM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

I did not enjoy the split timeline debates for years after the split timeline was confirmed in interviews but stubborn people continued to deny it was canon. That was just irritating. Other than that though, I did enjoy theorizing and debating and I do miss it.

I was disappointed that by the time I actually came up with my own timeline in 2011, that already by then people didn't care about the timeline much anymore so I didn't get all that many responses, and most people actually said their timelines were the same or similar to mine. So I didn't even have anything to argue against.

Spoiler

...............WW(TT)-PH-ST-(FPTRR)
.............../
TMC-OOT
...............\
................MM-(SCII-SSB-SSBM)-TP(LCT)-(SSBB)-FS-FSA-ALttP-(AST)-LA-(sz)-LoZ-AoL-(FoE-WoG-ZA)-OoX

This is what it was and I suppose I'd still stand by it today as a pretty solid timeline. I actually still think my placement of Oracles makes more sense than Nintendo's.

I'd also defend the Hyrule Historia timeline because I think it is as good as any.

[MikePetersSucks]

I'm still sticking to my personal timeline in the signature. I'm also have considering putting Hyrule Warriors in there out of spite/poking fun simply because it was already confirmed to be it's own universe.

[Egann]

I'm really surprised at how much effort people put into the timeline. To me, the interesting things you could talk about in the Zelda universe are what happened with the war before Ocarina of Time started? Why is there so much racial tension between the Hylian and the Gerudo? Most Zelda games actually hide a fair bit of lore in plain sight.

 

But no. TimelineTimelineTimelineTimeline. I'm half convinced Nintendo doesn't care about the timeline because Zelda is, by its nature, intended to create a feeling of nostalgia and deja' vu. That's why they keep making prequels.

 

So no, I haven't posted here that much because I don't really care about what everyone else wants to talk about.

Edited by Egann, 01 October 2014 - 04:49 PM.

[Hana-Nezumi]

I'm really surprised at how much effort people put into the timeline. To me, the interesting things you could talk about in the Zelda universe are what happened with the war before Ocarina of Time started? Why is there so much racial tension between the Hylian and the Gerudo? Most Zelda games actually hide a fair bit of lore in plain sight.

It's because the games actually have little hints in them that tie them together, that can be interpreted in different ways. So there is a basis for building timeline theories upon, and it's kind of a puzzle to figure out. Whereas things like you're mentioning are never elaborated on. We just don't KNOW anything beyond what the game tells us, so anything we can come up with in regards to those types of mysteries would just be fanfiction, and then there's less of a point in arguing for or against it. I do think those things would be fun to discuss, though.

[Fin]

Always feels weird to me these days to remember all the time I spent on these threads. I barely play Zelda these days and I haven't really thought about the timeline in years. Though sometimes I remember a couple of cool things I or others had figured out about the overall mythology of the series that genuinely has me interested in the series again. Though even when I participated in timeline debates I was usually more interested in the underlying themes of the stories than the chronology itself. So I can kinda relate to what you're saying, Egann, though I was fortunate enough that the part of the series that really interested me was something I could inject into timeline arguments easily enough.

Edited by Fin, 01 October 2014 - 05:42 PM.

[Egann]

 

I'm really surprised at how much effort people put into the timeline. To me, the interesting things you could talk about in the Zelda universe are what happened with the war before Ocarina of Time started? Why is there so much racial tension between the Hylian and the Gerudo? Most Zelda games actually hide a fair bit of lore in plain sight.

It's because the games actually have little hints in them that tie them together, that can be interpreted in different ways. So there is a basis for building timeline theories upon, and it's kind of a puzzle to figure out. Whereas things like you're mentioning are never elaborated on. We just don't KNOW anything beyond what the game tells us, so anything we can come up with in regards to those types of mysteries would just be fanfiction, and then there's less of a point in arguing for or against it. I do think those things would be fun to discuss, though.

 

 

In retrospect my last post came off a bit harsh. That was not intended.

 

In any case, my point is that making a timeline is inherently a creative synthesis. Most split timelines have adult and child OoT Link timelines, but the "official" timeline has a third branch; OoT Link is defeated. I expect Nintendo put that there on purpose. It makes guessing the correct timeline practically impossible because you have no way of knowing that Ocarina made a second timeline split which the player is basically not privvy to see.

 

You may as well discuss other parts of the lore because one way or the other you're going to be making stuff up, or at least making educated guesses. I don't mean to say the timeline is unimportant--you can even argue its central--but it's not the only thing to discuss.

[Masamune]

I miss when it was still viable to talk about there being only one Link. Well, okay, it was never viable, but I enjoyed when it could be managed semi-cohesively when things were much simpler.

 

i miss those final days of trying to manage a single timeline! I had such high hopes for you, Nintendo! Why did you do it! 

 

It's disappointing not having this place to talk about Zelda anymore. I don't want to go to one of the bigger forums and though there are places on reddit, it's never quite quality. After Hyrule Historia came out, I'd hoped we'd talk about lore and come up with more interesting theories than just timeline. Like Egann, I would have hoped for discussion on Hyrule's lore and some of the loose connections between characters and themes in games that are never fully addressed. 

 

We haven't even had a conversation about where Hyrule Warriors would fit even if it was canon! 

[joeymartin64]

i miss those final days of trying to manage a single timeline! I had such high hopes for you, Nintendo! Why did you do it!

 

Those days will never end as long as I'm still alive, sir.

 

Anyway, this place really jumped the shark when people stopped having fun with it. Used to be, we could just shoot the shit and talk about the lore, but then it got all srsbizniss and the only things people were allowed to do were to compare game script translations or pore over interviews for seven-second clips where Aonuma says something story-related.

 

Hell, not only have we not said anything about Hyrule Warriors (it's going in my timeline at some point, haven't given much thought to where), but I don't think I've seen anyone mention the fact that ALBW, the first game to come out after Hyrule Historia, directly contradicts the HH timeline. That would have been huge a few years ago.

Edited by joeymartin64, 04 October 2014 - 07:08 PM.

[Masamune]

How does it contradict the HH timeline? I know it goofs up the general layout of who has what Triforce (why does Ganon have Power?), but that's pretty par for the course. 

[SteveT]

I declare that Hyrule Warriors is in the center of the Triforce of Time.

 

Discussion accomplished.

[Masamune]

I feel like if we sat down and thought about it, we could put OoT, TP, and SS at three corners of the Triforce of Time, which would make Hyrule Warriors sitting in the middle seem absolutely perfect. 

[joeymartin64]

How does it contradict the HH timeline? I know it goofs up the general layout of who has what Triforce (why does Ganon have Power?), but that's pretty par for the course. 

ALBW tells us that the Triforce is split after the evens of ALttP (which isn't what we'd gotten from that ending for 20 years, but whatever). Thing is, the Triforce is whole, in Hyrule Castle, at the beginning of Oracle, meaning that, given what we learn in ALBW about post-ALttP, Oracle can not possibly directly follow ALttP, as HH states.

 

There's also the issue with Ganon appearing in Oracle, having been dead (ALBW tells us he was "sealed" in ALttP, again not what we thought), and not having the Triforce of Power (which he should post-ALttP, given the split).

 

Again, I point to the flowery disclaimer in HH, which is basically purple prose for "Yeah, we don't fuckin' know, either", and explicitly points out the possibility of future installments changing the timeline.

[SteveT]

I feel like if we sat down and thought about it, we could put OoT, TP, and SS at three corners of the Triforce of Time, which would make Hyrule Warriors sitting in the middle seem absolutely perfect. 

 

As much as I would love that, I love the WW over-shoot loop even more.

 

This reminds me that we never even bothered to put Skyward Sword in, even though it provides some great evidence for a recursive timeline.  It's an origin story where the past had better technology, all the temples were already built, and everything important happened ages ago!  So obviously, it comes between AoL and OoT.  Yet another calamity happened, people moved off planet and forgot about everything.  Dealing with Fi is a bit of a conundrum, though.

 

Going back to the beginning of the thread, I think what killed it is that it became harder and harder to justify the idea that Nintendo intended there to be a cohesive timeline.  The game felt unwinnable back when we were trying to fit Wind Waker in, and almost every subsequent game made it harder.  It's like putting together a puzzle and flipping over the pieces one at a time.  The first few are tree branches and leaves, so you think you're making a picture of a forest.  Then you flip over the next and it's solid purple.  There's a tipping point where trying to solve a mystery with missing and contradictory information stops being fun.  

 

And the HH timeline didn't help matters.  Fans had been trying to sort this thing out for years, and Nintendo goes and branches a timeline at the Game Over screen.  As Joey says, they don't fucking know either.  The game had already stopped being fun, and then we find out that the official solution was less compelling than the fan theories.  It's was like the ending to Lost all over again.  

[Masamune]

I think an official timeline could have gone over so much better without two branches of the timeline. Or heck, if they really wanted a Decline timeline, they could have had it branch off one of the millions of iterations of Majora's Mask where Link didn't stop the Moon from falling.

I was always fond of just a 2D only timeline that existed in its own separate continuity. I mean, Nintendo ended up doing that anyway (except for the Four Swords trilogy), but it would have worked better if it didn't have to be retconned into some side ending for A Link to the Past when Ocarina of Time was originally made specifically to be its prequel. 

[Sir Turtlelot]

I really need to dig more into ALBW's backstory for Ganon, since the ingame explanation seemed a bit off from ALttP's ending. I feel that something interesting may be there, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

 

 

Also, I feel that I'm one of the few who actually likes the triple pronged timeline. I always disliked that ALttP and the other 2D games were just thrown after either TP or WW, since those two games severed its original connection to OoT. Having a third branch of the timeline for OoT - ALttP seems like a more solid timeline overall.

 

My problem with the HH's Timeline, like most everyone's, is the explanation of the third split. If effectively makes it into a what-if scenario, rather than something that actually occurred, like the Child and Adult timelines. I suppose the upside to the explanation is that it narrows the OoX's options of placement. Since Twinrova would have been defeated on the Adult and Decline Timelines, that only leaves the Child Timeline where she is still alive, meaning that OoX would need to be placed after TP. I've made some pet theories in the past explaining how the third timeline comes to be, but there were all a little shakey, at best.

 

 

Speaking of pet theories, I still stand that the FSS could totally work on the Adult Timeline, post-ST. We once again have a continent named Hyrule, and there's no sign of the Master Sword or the Triforce. FSA already shows that Ganon is capable of reincarnating, much like Zelda and Link.

[Masamune]

Before HH was fully translated, I suggested that the third timeline should have been what happened if Link didn't travel through time. For every time travel story, there must be a timeline where there wasn't time travel. The original timeline. This would effectively be a timeline where a child Link opposed Ganondorf with the Master Sword, but was never aged seven years. He went to directly confront Ganondorf, but was defeated soundly. Backstory thus follows the events of the Imprisoning War. It works nicely because Twinrova remains undefeated and the Knights of Hyrule are still around to ally with Rauru and the original Sages to play out the events described in the A Link to the Past backstory. 

 

And thus it's because of this original timeline that the Master Sword (or the goddesses or Rauru or Fi or whoever is responsible for holding Link in the Sacred Realm) ages Link seven years to give him a chance to defeat Link. Two new branches are created from the original timeline to try and prevent the Imprisoning War. 

 

But alas. Hyrule Historia went with a far lamer option. 

Edited by Masamune, 05 October 2014 - 07:45 AM.

[JRPomazon]

When I first came here, there was a lot of catching up and learning I had to do before getting into the conversations. The timeline was this boggling, impressive thing to me back then. I always liked the idea that they all fell together on a single timeline but it seems I was wrong. As I've been playing through Wind Waker, I've come to learn that there are some things about the Zelda series that I loved that I never really quite realized. It's not so much the nostalgia as it is the sense of bittersweetness that accompanies the stories as they unfold. The sages in OoT and Wind Waker, Link's Uncle and the Flute boy from ALttp, Marin and all of Koholint Island from Link's Awakening, Impa from Skyward Sword and so many more characters that are trapped in these situations of circumstance either to help Link accomplish his goal or perhaps the victims of unescapable fates. When you see these stories play out I remember feeling this sadness or disbelief that this was all happening and there was nothing I could do. It made me feel powerless but sometimes even steeled my determination to finish the quest and save Hyrule.

 

This place would offer a stage to voice these observations and share them with others. It was special in that way.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I really need to dig more into ALBW's backstory for Ganon, since the ingame explanation seemed a bit off from ALttP's ending. I feel that something interesting may be there, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
 

Also, I feel that I'm one of the few who actually likes the triple pronged timeline. I always disliked that ALttP and the other 2D games were just thrown after either TP or WW, since those two games severed its original connection to OoT. Having a third branch of the timeline for OoT - ALttP seems like a more solid timeline overall.
 
My problem with the HH's Timeline, like most everyone's, is the explanation of the third split. If effectively makes it into a what-if scenario, rather than something that actually occurred, like the Child and Adult timelines. I suppose the upside to the explanation is that it narrows the OoX's options of placement. Since Twinrova would have been defeated on the Adult and Decline Timelines, that only leaves the Child Timeline where she is still alive, meaning that OoX would need to be placed after TP. I've made some pet theories in the past explaining how the third timeline comes to be, but there were all a little shakey, at best.

Why did they seal Link away for Seven Years? One suggestion I read stated that the Sages knew Link wasn't ready to fight because they tried letting child Link fight Ganondorf. That didn't end well and resulted in the Decline Timeline. Hence, no defeated Twinrova, because child Link never went to the Spirit Temple.

I preferred my timeline: the one I deleted to replace it with that advert. What was it again? I think it had Super Mario Bros and Silent Hill in it.

Here's a question I'd like to consider. Hyrule seems strangely organised in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess. In OoT you've effectively got several nations within the same kingdom. Were they autonomous? Were they of a similar political structure to the Holy Roman Empire? You had a King swearing fealty to another. Perhaps the similarity is more to the Kingdom of Wessex?

Edited by Wolf O'Donnell, 06 October 2014 - 03:37 PM.

[Masamune]

 

I really need to dig more into ALBW's backstory for Ganon, since the ingame explanation seemed a bit off from ALttP's ending. I feel that something interesting may be there, but I just haven't gotten around to it yet.
 

Also, I feel that I'm one of the few who actually likes the triple pronged timeline. I always disliked that ALttP and the other 2D games were just thrown after either TP or WW, since those two games severed its original connection to OoT. Having a third branch of the timeline for OoT - ALttP seems like a more solid timeline overall.
 
My problem with the HH's Timeline, like most everyone's, is the explanation of the third split. If effectively makes it into a what-if scenario, rather than something that actually occurred, like the Child and Adult timelines. I suppose the upside to the explanation is that it narrows the OoX's options of placement. Since Twinrova would have been defeated on the Adult and Decline Timelines, that only leaves the Child Timeline where she is still alive, meaning that OoX would need to be placed after TP. I've made some pet theories in the past explaining how the third timeline comes to be, but there were all a little shakey, at best.

Why did they seal Link away for Seven Years? One suggestion I read stated that the Sages knew Link wasn't ready to fight because they tried letting child Link fight Ganondorf. That didn't end well and resulted in the Decline Timeline. Hence, no defeated Twinrova, because child Link never went to the Spirit Temple.

 

Yes! My suggestion! That I just posted about! 

[Fin]

In my last few months on these threads I got around retcons and stuff by not giving a shit about trying to piece together a single cohesive timeline and focusing more on how a game would use references to previous games to strengthen its own story and themes.

So if I was looking at say Wind Waker, the split timeline would be relevant because the game is an explicit sequel to Ocarina of Time that overrides A Link to the Past and a couple lines indicate the Hero of Time's disappearance from the world was when he traveled back to the past.

When talking about Ocarina of Time itself though I'd flat out ignore the split timeline, since that idea didn't really exist until a few years after OoT's release and the story is clearly intended to be A Link to the Past's prequel. I didn't really give a damn that these interpretations contradict one another, so long as the individual stories made sense.

I'm interested to hear that Link Between Worlds so blatantly goes against so much stuff in Link to the Past's ending though. Curious to know how I'd feel about those particular plot points if I played the game.

Edited by Fin, 07 October 2014 - 08:52 PM.

[JRPomazon]

I'm interested to hear that Link Between Worlds so blatantly goes against so much stuff in Link to the Past's ending though. Curious to know how I'd feel about those particular plot points if I played the game.

 

 

Potential ALBW spoilers below but spelling it out for people who might not have realized what Fin is talking about below. But the Timeline made some sense from Hyrule Historia until ALBW came out:
 

Spoiler

The biggest problem is Ganon's role in the larger scheme of ALBWs story. In AlttP, Link totally kills him with the silver arrows. Killed. Not sealed, not put aside for later, totally destroyed. In the Oracles games, Ganon is partially revived via Twinrova's botched resurrection, but that's only his body and not so much his soul/mind. And at this point, Ganon is not connected to the Triforce of Power nor has the Triforce been broken off again. It's in it's complete form. But in ALBW, not only does Ganon reappear when Yuga breaks the sage's seal but he is also in possession of the Triforce of power, which is why Yuga merges with Ganon in the first place.
 
So somewhere along the lines, Ganon is not only revived, but also reclaims his piece of the Triforce. How this happened is not explained or brought to light. Nintendo botched it big time trying to shoehorn this game into the timeline. The only means of rectifying it might come with the newest Wii U Zelda in the future but I don't have high hopes for that. But this is what happens when they attempt to modernize certain story elements of older games with newer ones.

Edited by JRPomazon, 07 October 2014 - 02:35 AM.

[MikePetersSucks]

I just assume that the "Ganon is Vanquished Forever" line in LTTP is retconned to mean his spirit is removed from the cycle of reincarnation, and after using the Triforce for a bunch of good, it's broken and sealed, the Triforce of Power put with Ganon so the Triforce can never be assembled. Yuga's thing is as much a revival as it is an unsealing, but the damage is done; bringing Ganon to life is SUPER hard now.

[Wolf O'Donnell]

Yes! My suggestion! That I just posted about!

No, it wasn't you. I never noticed your post. Unless you happen to post regularly on TVTropes?

I just assume that the "Ganon is Vanquished Forever" line in LTTP is retconned to mean his spirit is removed from the cycle of reincarnation, and after using the Triforce for a bunch of good, it's broken and sealed, the Triforce of Power put with Ganon so the Triforce can never be assembled. Yuga's thing is as much a revival as it is an unsealing, but the damage is done; bringing Ganon to life is SUPER hard now.

Yeah. It was never really implied what Link's wish was. Perhaps he wished for the Triforce to be broken up.

Edited by Wolf O'Donnell, 07 October 2014 - 02:23 PM.

[SteveT]

No, it wasn't you. I never noticed your post. Unless you happen to post regularly on TVTropes?

 

Too late.  Masa already called dibs on that suggestion.

[Masamune]

Well, I know I posted about it pre-Hyrule Historia. But no, otherwise I don't post on TVTropes. 

[Raien]

I can't remember why I started timeline theorising but it was a good ground for learning other things. I learned a little about mythology and symbolism from interpreting the lore. I learned a little about conspiracy theories watching other people go to the most ridiculous lengths and taking the most nonsensical interpretations of text in order to justify their arguments. It wasn't Hyrule Historia that killed my interest, though. It was Nintendo convoluting the lore with yet another "Power of Light" and "Dark World" in Twilight Princess. Hyrule is practically collecting earth-shattering magical powers that conveniently disappear after the game they're in is finished.

 

With that all said, the reveal of Lorule's history at the end of ALBW was the best story moment I've had with Zelda since the reveal of Hyrule Castle in TWW. That's because for the first time in ten years, we've had a game actually acknowledge the lore of past games and do something exciting with it in a "What If" scenario. What if Zelda destroyed the Triforce to stop the constant demon attacks? A great question and it made the perfect setting for a new Zelda game, even if it was yet another Dark World retread. In fact, ALBW was a great surprise for me overall. Not the best Zelda game ever but at least it wasn't Skyward Sword.

[Fin]

omg Raien

Hi!

[Raien]

Hiya! I'm back!